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kieron	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:19:00 - [1] The In Development page contains lots of nifty features that may eventually be added into EVE. You can read more about the development process in the page intro. Wedged between 4 New Bloodlines and Titans is a heading called, "Next-Gen Manufacturing and Research Facilities". Sounds big, sounds ominous (a re-write of the current system, ohnoes!), sounds like it might be a great change over the current system. Oveur expands on the topic in his new Dev Blog. The changes are big and will have a huge impact on many aspects of the game. Oveur stated Research and Manufacturing make up a large (3-5%) amount of the server usage. 3-5% may not sound like a lot, but when the server usage is split up between so many different factors, even a 1% reduction is usage is huge. Everyone's noticed the recent increase in lag, this is one step in the optimization process to reduce the lag beast. As this topic is still in development, the final version has not been set and is still open for some discussion. Here's your chance to get in on the development process and throw out some ideas. With the changes this will bring, it is sure to evoke high emotion. Please keep the discussion constructive and pithy. Celebrity voices impersonated. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Silver Bird	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:23:00 - [2] First now to read an reply \0/
Alex Kynes	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:30:00 - [3] Second! ... and reading... -AK
Soren	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:34:00 - [4] Omg you impersonaited all those people.... _________________________________________________________
Swedish Bob	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:35:00 - [5] Sounds like it might be decent if we get all the features. For restricting jobs it would be nice if we could assign priority as well. If there are no pending corp jobs it would start an alliance job for example. Is this another Soon!(tm) deal or is it something we will see fairly soon?
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:51:00 - [6] Wicked Also, why not make the POS store a copy of the remote BPO in use so that when you destroy a POS while its building t2 it would drop a random number (Though fairly high) of runs bpc of that item. People wouldnt lose their 10 bill isk bpos but you could actually attack say a naga POS for a 100 run hac bpc (Assuming it doesnt blow up in the attack) Crazy idea perhaps? ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.09.27 18:00:00 - [7] I would like to be the first to protest the over representation of BoB corp members in the impersonated voiced question askers for the blog. Proud member of Elite Academy.
Swedish Bob	Posted - 2005.09.27 18:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Wicked Also, why not make the POS store a copy of the remote BPO in use so that when you destroy a POS while its building t2 it would drop a random number (Though fairly high) of runs bpc of that item. People wouldnt lose their 10 bill isk bpos but you could actually attack say a naga POS for a 100 run hac bpc (Assuming it doesnt blow up in the attack) Crazy idea perhaps? I don't think so high a number but its a great idea. It would be nice if there were a way ingame to reduce the chance of equipment and items being destroyed. Maybe a skill or module. That way with extra effort you could actually be rewarded for engaging in PVP. Right now its completely random as to whether you will manage to get anything out of an encounter. So I think that discourages people from taking up PVP. It would be nice if I saw someone transporting a capII BPO, that I had a chance of actually getting it in a fight.
FFGR	Posted - 2005.09.27 18:34:00 - [9] Well, an idea I have on the topic is making a new type of BPC... It will use some NPC items (Data Chips?) and it will allow the construction of the item only in POS or Outposts. Drawback will be that it is going to allow only 1-run copies of the item and it will need some new skills (or higher skills from the needed to construct the item) and be limited only to the one that made it or to a person, and they can be used by other people by using the Hacking skill that is in the game. Ofc the copying time will be far less than what it is with the current BPCs.
WhiskeyDP	Posted - 2005.09.27 18:57:00 - [10] still no so called advanced mass production skills and such related skills. guess its all comes down too lag huh? wtt 25m+ production/research related skills for pvp skills instead ================== Bring in advanced mass production and other related science/industry skills plz === wts BPC's - check my bio. Best Collection ingame?
Dao 2	Posted - 2005.09.27 19:04:00 - [11] plz put branding in too! ;p
So'Kar	Posted - 2005.09.27 20:11:00 - [12] This thread had some very nice ideas. I want So'Kars modified 1400mm howitzers even if it took months and lot of isk to make.
belzebub1	Posted - 2005.09.27 20:37:00 - [13] Some nice idea's, Future for manufacturing is looking more intresting. Dont forget to visit Magma Index at the below Link. http://www.magmaindex.uni.cc/
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.09.27 21:09:00 - [14] I think this is a very welcome development. The move from 'continuous processing' to 'batch processing' makes a great deal of sense. I also think the move from rentable slots to bookable jobs is a good one. However, I think there are certain implications that need a lot of thought and testing. I'm sure they'll get the former; I hope they get the latter. One key point I would make with respect to the change from rentable slots to bookable jobs is that of the charge levied by public stations (talking about those as that is all anyone has experience of at this moment in time). A minimum rent of 40,000 isk for a slot makes sense when that pays for 10 days worth of factory slot-time that can be used for many different item runs. In that context, you can fit in the little jobs at no great cost, overall, ensuring the rent pays for itself with the bigger jobs. It seems to me that it is surely not reasonable to charge 40,000 isk for a job that may well produce goods worth only 100,000 isk on the market. Now you answer, they'll change the fee. Well, yes, they will.. trouble is the balance between a flat fee that is meaningful and one that penalises certain jobs is, I think, quite tricky. As it's clear that we will have to pay something to run a job, I'd like to suggest it is an isk charge based on a per minute of job runtime formula. Note in this regard that 3 isk per minute for factories would give you a charge very close to current base rent over a 10 day period (10 x 24 x 60 x 3 = 43,200). So I'll use that but it's really just notional, of course. The advantage of this system is that it is simple, proportionate and it is immediately understandable what calculation is happening. Not least it provides for a new skill that would reduce the standard fee by a % per level. (Factory Management?) Standings might reduce the fee also. The same system could be used for laboratory jobs also, with a similar skill for % fee reductions. (Laboratory Management?) Example, a 10 run job for EMP S ammunition may take, say, 60 seconds per run* and costs 3 isk standard per minute. The job installation cost would thereby be 30 isk. (I accept an absolute minimum of 100 isk may be imposed. I think that's OK as the minimum - I'm actually wary of anything much above that.) Let's say a 10 run cruiser job gets installed. The installation setup and confirmation window would get the runtime of a singleton from the blueprint (eg 5 hours), get your run multiple and come back with a standard charge of 9,000 isk. So perhaps a 5 run tier 3 BS job gets installed. That turns out to go just under 10 days, let's say, and the charge is somewhere in the region of 405,000 isk+ I realise these are not the actual times for these items **I think a limit of a week on production runs is crazy to be honest unless timings change - I know where it comes from but I think it's based on hub production thinking. That's the hard case making bad law. You don't need such a limit with all the empty job capacity you will see outside the hubs. Limiting everybody is not the answer to hub factory oversubscription. Even if the rather tight limit of a week for a multiple run job is not implemented in the end - timings of some things would need to change I think - though I'd expect this with research processes more than anything. I'm afraid some poor sod really has to sit down and look at the various timing associated with laboratory operations and individual blueprints for what is being proposed by Oveur to be properly implemented. Otherwise improvement research and copying of quite a lot of blueprints becomes a really nightmarish proposition. Just some thoughts, I think these changes will be good on the whole, just some change of habits needed by us players in places, and combined with a true spectrum of R&D rewards, rather than the eternal darkness sometimes relieved by a chance flash of light we have now, it has the potential to be a great set of changes. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
Emily Spankratchet	Posted - 2005.09.27 21:56:00 - [15] Lots of good stuff in there. One pre-emptive whine: I normally scoff at the "OMG you're penalising new players" threads. In this case, the economies of scale and reliance on starbases seem to suggest that rather than success in production being dependent on skills it might now be dependent on skills and access to an outpost. I'm probably being too pessimistic. I hope I am, anyway.
Brolly	Posted - 2005.09.27 22:29:00 - [16] I like the fact r&d is dwarfed (as usual) by pvp or combat oriented features . Anyhoo's, i'm gonna remain ever sceptical as science has been a complete joke up to now. I pressume science will be bolted onto another area of the game (such as complexes, more agent missions..something that involves combat so we will be more grateful for the other changes or additions to the game) and it will also be in 0.0 or low sec space. Wish I trained up for PVP, ahh well, maybe I could be terribly wrong and I will be joyous and pay for my sub every month
infused	Posted - 2005.09.27 23:55:00 - [17] This is by far... awesome!!!: " Rapid Deployment of a pilot to a battlefield relies on something like Project Rebirth, where you can deploy your force straight into the Battlefield given that you have the available infrastructure and resources on the Battlefield. An example of a battlefield resource required for rapid deployment of one pilot would be a ship, fitted with modules and ammunition (or have that in a location where the pilot can fit the modules and load ammunition), a structure or ship which can recieve the pilot via rapid deployment. Such a ship would be a Carrier or a Titan and the structure could be an Outpost or Starbase." So basically, are you saying that we can take off crom carriers and such? And be automatically transported to them?
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.09.28 00:33:00 - [18] The Medals & Awards idea sounds bad imo. Its just not fair on NPCers and such. No one should be forced to do agent missions.
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.28 00:50:00 - [19] Will the research system have a revamp with this change?. Not just when it comes to how you schedule research jobs, but the way the system works with Research agents, RP, BPO lottery etc? Would be a good time to do it perhaps.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.28 02:37:00 - [20] With the new manufacturing feature, it would be very important to let people know the length of the "waiting list" for manufacturing jobs. If nobody owns anything and they just order jobs, it's possible for 500 players to order a job at same station and they'll never know why it's not working, cause only a few of them actually get stuff done in reasonable period of time.
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.09.28 04:14:00 - [21] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 28/09/2005 04:15:50 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 28/09/2005 04:14:21 Great, the one fundimental thing that you could cound on for its simplicity is being changed. .(just kidding) so basically the stations retain their slots, or am I to understand that There is only one slot per station? and please do not forget that not everybody can afford starbases and outposts so please dont forget about empire.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2005.09.28 05:23:00 - [22] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 28/09/2005 05:24:42 As mentioned LOTS before and again above (by somebody else): DON'T FORGET BRANDING !! MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
mahhy	Posted - 2005.09.28 07:18:00 - [23] Edited by: mahhy on 28/09/2005 07:19:05 Originally by: Gamer4liff so basically the stations retain their slots, or am I to understand that There is only one slot per station? and please do not forget that not everybody can afford starbases and outposts so please dont forget about empire. Ehm... slots becomes "jobs", which really shouldn't affect anything that much. Sounds like theres a general queue in the station, you pay your ISK to place your job on the queue, and at some point in the future it will finish. If the station is underutilised it will start immediately. If its a busy station there may be a few days lag before your job starts. Or maybe I'm entirely wrong. And how do starbases and outposts have anything, at all, even in the slightest to do with Empire producers?? - Starbases are only available in 0.3 or less. - Outposts only in 0.0, only in soveirgn space, only owned by alliances. - Empire stations can do all the same stuff. - Starbases/Outposts will offer certain benefits to specific areas of research or production. So really the only thing the empire producers are missing out on is the benefits provided by Starbases/Outposts. So before anyone whines about that, do you really think that will impact the empire market? Who cares if you can produce twice as many T2 widgets in 0.0 as you can in 0.9? The effort/cost/time to haul them to empire markets cancels out that benefit, and will probably mean they'd be sold in 0.0 instead of being hauled. Its all a prelude to a real 0.0 marketplace.
Mned Graydroggen	Posted - 2005.09.28 07:43:00 - [24] Quote: Public facilities will also have a limiting factor of how long a job can be. As an example, a public facility would only allow a job to be a maximum of one week, That will in effect limit the HAC and Transport type productions to 7-8 run/batch. I wonder what companies like NAGA and BIG think of this. Quote: since you have to have all the minerals at installation of the job. It be wise to have all these minerals physicaly taken from a hangar on installing, not as it is now, only taking the mins for the first run. Otherwise organising multiple producers from a corp hangar will be a problematic Quote: Well, we're enabling Starbases up to a certain range from a station, to use a BPO which is inside the station. I've seen more elegant solutions my dear DEV's I mean this aint a deepspace solution. Quote: We've no plans of utilizing the functionality yet for heads, but we will be doing modules and ships, something like a research ship, which requires you to be close to a sun to research ancient technology found through Archeology. It also enables us to create new types of facilites really easily for mini-professions, such as an Archeology Lab or more more sinister like Biochemical Labs. '/goes to fetsh a mop to clean up the drool from his desk All in all looks like a great addon to production. Kepp it up guys. Looking forward to the develpoments here. Mned
Sadist	Posted - 2005.09.28 07:43:00 - [25] Quote: Ehm... slots becomes "jobs", which really shouldn't affect anything that much. Sounds like theres a general queue in the station, you pay your ISK to place your job on the queue, and at some point in the future it will finish. If the station is underutilised it will start immediately. If its a busy station there may be a few days lag before your job starts. Or maybe I'm entirely wrong. Nope, I'm quite sure you're completely right. These changes are very welcome, bla-bla-bla, and so on, but overall they're pretty basic and sound more like optimisations, rather than something entirely new. However if that does result in a 2-3% server load reduction (especially on the busiest nodes), that'd be awesome. P.S. Oveur, next time incorporate me into Bloodlines log plz. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Sadist - harsh to the idiots, kind to the smart
Pallas Athene	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:06:00 - [26] "NEXT-GEN MANUFACTURING" "Now if it's then a Caldari Starbase Shipyard, it could be even better at manufacturing Caldari ships at the cost of not being able to manufacture other races ships. Lets go even further, Caldari Frigate Starbase Shipyard. You know where this is going, highly specialized reasearch and manufacturing facilities for Starbases, Outposts and Conquerable Stations. Imagine what you can shave off in Tech II manufacturing. " So, exactly how far do you guys want to push this highly specialized stuff ... i really need to know this. Because, if you really want to go this way to its very end i can at least tell my kids that their dad has quit his real life job to do something more important . Well, this is not going to happen of course and i¦m afraid, giving it a fancy name doesn¦t make it any better. Though i have to admit i like the idea and on paper it really looks fancy and it sure is the right direction - if it¦s going to be done the right way. Our corp is controlling all sorts of T2 BPO, all races, all ship types, all equipment types and races but i think that¦s no news. It¦s also no news that we¦re a small corp. and we¦re struggling day in day out with our capacities. And it¦s already hard enough to get enough factory slots to run all our BPO and our T2 component production.... I¦m almost certain you won¦t change your mind about the NPC factory changes and we will be forced to adapt or die. The Starbase production it is then and i have only a few points i would like to mention atm : - Keep it simple and allow some time to adapt Too much specialisation is not going to work for many people. - Increase hangar security Things would be much easier if building materials could be used for production without full hangar access - Keep the running costs/logistics for those facilities reasonable. People will allready have enough to do getting their products out of 0,0 in one piece and on the market. - Starbase factories should enough production slots ... you talked about mass production and that¦s what we want to see for our efforts. - Increase the 6 factory limit each character can handle . You love to introduce new skills, this is your chance. I think that¦s all for now. You really let us pay for this dream of yours and the "lag" problem , now show us that it¦s worth it . Regards Pallas N.A.G.A Website I make you a Prince - promise
Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:25:00 - [27] "I have a baaaaad feeling about this..." "Turn the ship around!" That was the first thing that came to mind after taking it all in. You'll notice that I will start training Gallente Dreadnaught V the day before the patch containing this bomb hits TQ.
Balazs Simon	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:45:00 - [28] Stock Ya' ammo up, before tha pacth :))) It is possible that the will be no new ammo manufactured for a week or 2 after the patch j/k - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. -
Balazs Simon	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Pallas Athene "NEXT-GEN MANUFACTURING" "Now if it's then a Caldari Starbase Shipyard, it could be even better at manufacturing Caldari ships at the cost of not being able to manufacture other races ships. Lets go even further, Caldari Frigate Starbase Shipyard. You know where this is going, highly specialized reasearch and manufacturing facilities for Starbases, Outposts and Conquerable Stations. Imagine what you can shave off in Tech II manufacturing. " So, exactly how far do you guys want to push this highly specialized stuff ... i really need to know this. Because, if you really want to go this way to its very end i can at least tell my kids that their dad has quit his real life job to do something more important . Well, this is not going to happen of course and i¦m afraid, giving it a fancy name doesn¦t make it any better. Though i have to admit i like the idea and on paper it really looks fancy and it sure is the right direction - if it¦s going to be done the right way. Our corp is controlling all sorts of T2 BPO, all races, all ship types, all equipment types and races but i think that¦s no news. It¦s also no news that we¦re a small corp. and we¦re struggling day in day out with our capacities. And it¦s already hard enough to get enough factory slots to run all our BPO and our T2 component production.... I¦m almost certain you won¦t change your mind about the NPC factory changes and we will be forced to adapt or die. The Starbase production it is then and i have only a few points i would like to mention atm : - Keep it simple and allow some time to adapt Too much specialisation is not going to work for many people. - Increase hangar security Things would be much easier if building materials could be used for production without full hangar access - Keep the running costs/logistics for those facilities reasonable. People will allready have enough to do getting their products out of 0,0 in one piece and on the market. - Starbase factories should enough production slots ... you talked about mass production and that¦s what we want to see for our efforts. - Increase the 6 factory limit each character can handle . You love to introduce new skills, this is your chance. I think that¦s all for now. You really let us pay for this dream of yours and the "lag" problem , now show us that it¦s worth it . Regards Pallas Ther will be no Slots!! = no limit to / slot only... Free after BoB: "There is NO SLOT!" - This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation or that of the Imperium Alliance in any way. -
Altaireus	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:49:00 - [30] Saying that lag and serverload is the primary cause for the rewrite of labs and factories is an insult to every producer out there. It would be nice if you actually did the changes mainly for the benefit of the ones that will have to use it.

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