WTB corporate LP tax

Doesn't make any sense that you call it warfare when all you have to do is just run from the opposite faction and then come back when they leave and dplex down any progress they made.

How about a 1 ship per faction max in novices so we could get some 1 on 1 pvp

Timer rollback to starting state when no-one is in the plex.
In order for the timer to run, a ship of the maximum size allowed in the plex needs to be there.

Do all of us agree on what FW should look like? No.

Does the name Factional Warfare imply fighting occurs? Yes.

Is the "Warfare" the main theme in Factional Warfare? No.


So CCP, read some ideas and choose to do something, who cares if you please everyone. Fact of the matter is you look like scared children afraid of losing subscriptions instead of the awesome juggernauts in the PVP MMO industry you used to be. Stop waiting for something like Dust to help, stop worrying that it won't work right and it might get exploited. DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT ALREADY!

Been playing 10 years. I get it that you believe in making your decisions more carefully now than you used to, but damn. We shouldn't have to wait 2 years for things like this to be fixed because you gotta figure out how to please everyone.


What stupid new thing you doing this next patch? More exploration? Really?!?! Damn, can we get more boring than that? Maybe change the name to PVE online instead of EVE online.

WAKE UP CCP!

Maybe they are doing something. They know they Cant please everyone. Did you ever think maybe you are one of the people they decided not to please?

FW is getting much more fighting in the past months. That means fun for everyone involved and therefore I would not call it "broken".

Does it need some fixes still? for sure. I-¦d love to see some of the ideas expressed elsewhere and in this thread, to wit:

As Chatgris said:

1. Timer rollback to starting state when no-one is in the plex.
2. In order for the timer to run, a ship of the maximum size allowed in the plex needs to be there.

And as Michael Chasseur said:

3. Wtb corporate lp tax.

And if you want to claim that more PVP has happened, show some proof instead of just claiming it has.

Timer rollback to starting state when no-one is in the plex.

CCP should just make a change where it makes the warzone a warzone instead of low sec mission running.

Instead of ranting I want to make one simple idea known.

I think that kills made in Solar system should be applied to the control of that solar system. Math and explanation:

To win control of a system you must gain 100% control (put system into vulnerable) and kill the ihub.

Each plex that you complete (orbit a beacon for 10, 15, 20 or 25 min.) gives you .7% additional movement towards control (towards caputering of defending.)

For easy math (and simplicity of overall thought) all math is done at T1 control.
Novice - 10 min - 5,000 LP
Small - 15 min - 8,000 LP
medium - 20 min - 12,700 LP

So if I do the easy math which is running the Novice sites only: this is simple showing not exact numbers:

To push the system to 100% from 0% would take 143 sites. (novice sites)
5,000 LP per site (5,000 x 143 = 715000)
715,000 LP given to pilots for 100% control of a system.
If you earn LP for PVP kills (which is based off of the insurance payout) then those LP payments should be matched and paid into the ihub and used towards the max % of flip.

IE: Killing a hurricane gives (lets say) 5,000 LP payout. That means that the pilots involved receive 5,000 LP and the ihub receives 5,000 LP towards the max of 715,000 or whatever arbitrary number CCP wants to give it.

This would bring PVP into the front line where pvp actually matters. Killing a enemy BS fleet is worth more then 5 hours of sitting afk with a cloak frig plexing.

Since the payouts are based on insurance payouts (dont quote me but im pretty sure its either insurance or its the amount of the ship value x some %. Since LP payouts are always a fraction of the ship kill this will prevent people from abusing it since it will not be worth the isk loss.

This is a warzone, why does PVP not matter?

Best example is the Amarr Militia and Fweddit. Fweddit has a massive amount of kills and PVPs all the time. Yet the minmatar are (were) winning the warzone due to broken farming mechanics.

This brings this question to my mind:

"IS THIS A WARZONE OR IS THIS LOWSEC MISSION RUNNING?"

everything is exploitable.

This is a warzone, why does PVP not matter?

Best example is the Amarr Militia and Fweddit. Fweddit has a massive amount of kills and PVPs all the time. Yet the minmatar are (were) winning the warzone due to broken farming mechanics.

So many threads have urged CCP to do something, can't recall us ever having a DEV response in any of them. Many of us care about FW though so have to support these calls.

There are many great ideas and it is true that changes cannot make everyone happy. May own take on the situation is that the ISK earning potential needs to be crushed so that:

1. You can earn enough to fund PVP. But really, who needs 500+mil a day to PVP!?!
2. It is not the most lucrative PVE activity in EVE.
3. The winners do not have such an advantage that allies will becomes enemies just for ISK (extremely bad mechanics)

So for this I suggest:

T0 = Base LP
T1 = +5%
T2 = +10%
T3 = +15%
T4 = +20%
T5 = +25%

This is still very healthy ISK potential to maintain a nice hangar of ships and maintains some incentive for Sov (we have another Tier Bonuses that should matter as much) whilst not being over the top.

Pilots in EVE spend a lot of time and effort to get an extra 3-5% advantage in their activities so I am not sure why FW currently involves bonuses and penalties like +225% and -50%.

Just flatten the playing field a little. No need for code re-writing or anything fancy to at least try this, and should hopefully make FW less of a farmville.

ccp have been working on FW alot.
stop crying go camp highsec stations if its to hard for u to get kills.

CCP should just make a change where it makes the warzone a warzone instead of low sec mission running.

Instead of ranting I want to make one simple idea known.

I think that kills made in Solar system should be applied to the control of that solar system. Math and explanation:

To win control of a system you must gain 100% control (put system into vulnerable) and kill the ihub.

Each plex that you complete (orbit a beacon for 10, 15, 20 or 25 min.) gives you .7% additional movement towards control (towards caputering of defending.)

For easy math (and simplicity of overall thought) all math is done at T1 control.
Novice - 10 min - 5,000 LP
Small - 15 min - 8,000 LP
medium - 20 min - 12,700 LP

So if I do the easy math which is running the Novice sites only: this is simple showing not exact numbers:

To push the system to 100% from 0% would take 143 sites. (novice sites)
5,000 LP per site (5,000 x 143 = 715000)
715,000 LP given to pilots for 100% control of a system.
If you earn LP for PVP kills (which is based off of the insurance payout) then those LP payments should be matched and paid into the ihub and used towards the max % of flip.

IE: Killing a hurricane gives (lets say) 5,000 LP payout. That means that the pilots involved receive 5,000 LP and the ihub receives 5,000 LP towards the max of 715,000 or whatever arbitrary number CCP wants to give it.

This would bring PVP into the front line where pvp actually matters. Killing a enemy BS fleet is worth more then 5 hours of sitting afk with a cloak frig plexing.

Since the payouts are based on insurance payouts (dont quote me but im pretty sure its either insurance or its the amount of the ship value x some %. Since LP payouts are always a fraction of the ship kill this will prevent people from abusing it since it will not be worth the isk loss.

This is a warzone, why does PVP not matter?

Best example is the Amarr Militia and Fweddit. Fweddit has a massive amount of kills and PVPs all the time. Yet the minmatar are (were) winning the warzone due to broken farming mechanics.

This brings this question to my mind:

"IS THIS A WARZONE OR IS THIS LOWSEC MISSION RUNNING?"

Timer rollback at 2x or 3x rate. If some dude wants to sit in the plex cloaked up, then he can really be griefed by the other side sitting there running the timer back quickly.

Anyways, easy enough of a fix.

If you study the kill stats you see that fw is a success. I like some of the minor tweaks mentioned in this thread, but major changes are not necessary. Fw is not broken.

After looking at both Fweddit and Moar Tears killboards, it's kind of lolworthy that any request is being made at all. Most of their kills are in Egglehende - a system which is not in FW space. You wonder if they would get any fights in FW if they actually, say, patrolled the FW area instead of camped the high sec gates in Eggh (and then called camping high sec gates "the right kind of pvp").

+1 to In Exile. who live in Eggh, but appear to actually go looking for fights in FW.

And +1 to Amarrian Retribution who actually have the balls to live in FW space. Right now Sahtogas is getting massive numbers of fights because these guys have chosen to defend it, (and some Minmatar have chosen to attack it). This is how FW Occupancy warfare is supposed to work.

If you study the kill stats you see that fw is a success. I like some of the minor tweaks mentioned in this thread, but major changes are not necessary. Fw is not broken.

It's worse than that, since it actively punishes people for trying to attack or defend. Under such a scheme, it would be better to do nothing and dplex later than to engage at a disadvantage.


Why should kills directly affect a war? Wars are won by accomplishing military objective; killing the enemy is just a means to that end. Conversely, it's entirely possible to waste your time doing nothing of consequence and inflicting irrelevant losses on the opposition (this is especially true in EVE, where dying is an inconvenience). There's nothing wrong with that, but it's pretty unreasonable to insist that it also directly affect the warzone.

FW is working fine, CCP set goal they want to achieve and stats show that they managed to do good changes.

The fact that most players had different goal what changes should do does not matter, FW is fine, get over it.

maybe if we wait couple years stats will go down after hype and CCP has to do something, other option is that players start to play FW like CCP planned, i do not see reason why that should happen, but hey who am i to see future always.

ccp have been working on FW alot.
stop crying go camp highsec stations if its to hard for u to get kills.

Wulf is right in the sense that TZ is a problem, but that can't be fixed!

After looking at both Fweddit and Moar Tears killboards, it's kind of lolworthy that any request is being made at all. Most of their kills are in Egglehende - a system which is not in FW space. You wonder if they would get any fights in FW if they actually, say, patrolled the FW area instead of camping the high sec gates in Eggh (and then called camping high sec gates "the right kind of pvp").

+1 to In Exile. who live in Eggh, but appear to actually go looking for fights in FW.

And +1 to Amarrian Retribution who actually have the balls to live in FW space. Right now Sahtogas is getting massive numbers of fights because these guys have chosen to defend it, (and some Minmatar have chosen to attack it). This is how FW Occupancy warfare is supposed to work.

Adding to contested levels based on kills won't solve this issue, unless the rewards for doing so are boosted to levels that are exploitable. Edit: Not saying it's a bad idea, just that it won't help you "win" FW.

The system favors a those who can put together a group of players to provide full TZ coverage. If you can do that, then the systems you target will not be won by others who run plexes during your off time (farmers or others interested in occupancy over fights). Now you know how to contest systems in the occupancy war - at least in a area near where you are going to base out of. Have at it.

My point is that you dont actually have to fight to win FW. just plex with the other side is asleep in systems that they are not in. Done. Game over. Sounds good.

Unlike your corp where you require people to orbit a plex everyday lots of people view eve as a game. They joined a war against a huge number of other players so that they can pvp. Not so they can have alts dplex a home system in atrons and run from anyone who comes to fight.

Given the broken mechanics of fw living in a low sec non fw system like egg makes sense if you are pvper. If Minmatar/gallente had more pvpers they would move in to egg too. But they want to stay safe where the enemy can't even dock ships.

My god, this whole post is full of troll/misunderstanding.



We're not required to plex, we do so cause it brings FIGHTS. We also have 'operational priorities' where we're encouraged to fight for a system or 2. It just so happens that we find fights. Lots of em actually.

D plex alts are a part of FW whether you like it or not, and of COURSE they're gonna run. Why should a 0 tank 0 dps ship stay around?.

If I am defending a system I want an advantage. Having a station in that system that the enemy cannot dock in is an advantage. Hell, it's worse out in 0.0 where NOBODY can dock in the station except for the owning corp and renters. If the other side wants to be able to reship in enemy territory, that's what POSs are for.

While yes wars are typically won by taking positions, resources, locations, etc. But removing the number of people from the location typically is how you win a fight. See kill enough of the others so they do not have enough to continue to kill you. This is what 00 is all about. WELCOME TO ALPHA FLEET NOOB! kill enough of them and their guns cant kill you. and once there is no one but you left well guess what you just won.

Have you ever played risk? how do you take over a location? by killing all the enemys guys on it? or orbiting it while the other player is asleep? Capture the flag has a higher risk and reward system then the current FW mechanics. If you are trying to take someones flag and a enemy shows up, you cant just leave and wait 4 hours and then go to capture the flag while the other player sleeps.

Cearain I wish you-¦d stop shitting on threads with your attacks on people who disagree with you because

1- Your notification idea is stupid.
2. We ACTUALLY PLAY in FW.

Now, you like numbers right? even if they don-¦t agree with you? go check Gallente Militia killboard and tell us again how JUSTK is "required to orbit buttons" all day and how we don-¦t pvp..

I should just stop feeding the troll really.

As for the issues discussed in this thread:

1. We used to have problems with 3 or 4 people coming into our system in a different timezone and plexing it up. Instead of crying to CCP about it we got a. Friends in diff timezones and b. recruited players in different timezones. Problem over.

2. This thread if nothing else proves that the stupid "notification" idea is not needed/would not work. If amarr can-¦t find "rabbits" plexing the FOUR systems they hold atm, no amount of notification spamm is gonna change that..

3. Kills affecting system contested status would be a ***** to program (I think) and would have no counterpart in all of Eve. There are other, simpler fixes proposed that a lot of people seem to agree upon: timer rollback. Hell even LP corp tax. Altho if you think FW is being farmed now imagine if we had corp LP tax...

Edit: missed something that XG mentioned and I-¦d like to repeat: look at the Amarr in Sahtogas. They are fighting for their system, getting lots of action and (one would think) fun. Imagine if more Amarr alliances/corps dared moved to lowsec and help each other out. FW pvp AND sov right there.

but others want to actually fight a war.

When you say "others" you understand you are talking about US right? the ones actually fighting and actually IN fw?

FW is an isk faucet for risk averse cloak fit atrons. If working as intended then thats fine. But it is not a Faction Warfare anymore. Low sec Missioning and beacon orbiting maybe...

If this is what CCP wants then thats fine. Just change the name.

If CCP will say on this thread that it is working as intended... that afk plexers is what they want... then I would not be surpirsed when amarr stops running a single plex, only pvps, and publicly announces that every single amarr pilot has a minni mission running alt...

No not you. You are the ones who want to make sure your rabbits can hide and avoid all pvp as they win sov. You are the ones who continually argue that rabbit plexing is fine, and always cry out when anyone suggests changes that would end it.

If we wanted to stay up into all the tzs then we would win pretty easily. the problem is we actually have jobs and RL.

So unfortunatly each TZ puts in around 5-8 hours if they want to actually dedicate to the cause. this means that any side with more TZ plexers, IE more EU and RUS vs the US then they win. no matter what. off of simple math and time.

HI HELLO THIS IS PINKY AMARR FW FLAGSHIP

http://i.imgur.com/AN1qQoY.jpg

YEA DATS WHAT WE TALKIN' ABOUT

We made a channel for you to tell you where our stabbed deplexing alts were, and I don't think you ever even joined. I was broadcasting over and over "Merlin in _____ plex in Notoras" with my alt.

yawn another thread for cearain to sperg about that damn notification .... IM OUT

HI HELLO THIS IS PINKY AMARR FW FLAGSHIP

http://i.imgur.com/AN1qQoY.jpg

YEA DATS WHAT WE TALKIN' ABOUT

HI HELLO THIS IS PINKY AMARR FW FLAGSHIP

http://i.imgur.com/AN1qQoY.jpg

YEA DATS WHAT WE TALKIN' ABOUT

that is exactly what im thinking about doing

how much would two pilots cost me at the bazzar that can fly sb?

wouldnt even need extra accounts
to pay for plex. transfer one to my main one on my alt and bam....run minnie missions once or twice a week. make a bill a week and get **** killed

**** thats a great idea lol

HI HELLO THIS IS PINKY AMARR FW FLAGSHIP

http://i.imgur.com/AN1qQoY.jpg

YEA DATS WHAT WE TALKIN' ABOUT

Oh, and to all those who enjoy the status quo and post on here to simply try to put out the flames.....I take it you're raking in the LP nicely and you'd like nothing more than to keep everything as is. Go ahead, keep bumping the thread, no one takes your opinion with any weight at all. We all know its broken, now its just a matter of calling out CCP for what they are, pussies unwilling to risk subscriptions.

Hell, its evidence that PvP & Plexing don't currently mix at all. Separate activities.

I think we did 49.4% of all amarr VP yesterday. and many systems are now over 50% contested that were orignially stable. We have flipped 2 systems already and plan to flip a large number by the end of the week.

The game logs and fraps will show that amarr is able to push back and actually gain warzone control if we stop having fun and turn into drones that plex all day

In regards to pinkys cloak frig.

We at FWEDDIT and YOLOCOLO are currently particitpating in a No Metal RUNMATAR campaign. Where we are using kills of their cloaky ships and doing exaclty what the minmatar have been doing. AFK cloak plexing.

We started Thursday and are continuing until the end of this week.

So yes you will see stabbed and cloak pve frigs for the next few days.

WE are using this to make a point that you dont actually have to pvp to win the warzone. So far Fweddit has some pretty iconic numbers in regards to VP.

I think we did 49.4% of all amarr VP yesterday. and many systems are now over 50% contested that were orignially stable. We have flipped 2 systems already and plan to flip a large number by the end of the week.

The game logs and fraps will show that amarr is able to push back and actually gain warzone control if we stop having fun and turn into drones that plex all day

Here's my take on FW.

"the war is won...". But did you stop and consider that maybe "the war" is not won by conquering systems? I might even go as far as asking, what exactly is "winning the war within the current Fw mechanics?"

Here's how things are right now in Fw as of Sovereignity and Lp rewards:

--If you conquer/upgrade more systems, you have primarily more Lp rewarded from offensive plexing and missions, plus other less influencial bonuses (faster production, less taxes, less repair costs at stations)
L---> But: since upgrading systems now is a lot more costly Lp-wise (300.000 Lp +increasing taxes up to 70%), and you would end up with a less fertile plexing ground, there is no real incentive on winning the war. Probably what would happen in a 90-10 map, is the dominating side turning to missions, as the minority continuing offensive plexing on the numerous available systems, the result? probably back to initial state of balance.

Since the new mechanic grants up to +225% Lp reward for offensive plex at T5, the question is, where would you offensive plex at T5? Since no one seems incredibly motivated by going above Tier 2, things will probably remain stagnant sov-wise.

My take, is that a red-blue balance of the map is silently accepted by both flags. Meaning continuing to have farming ground to fund our pvp. Which has seen increasing numbers as never before. And that to me is a war that's been won by ccp. By us.

There is no war to be won. Just a game that fuels its own end: keep doing what you love.

Please tell us more about this game you don't play...

Really? I plex and get pvp all the time. And even Cearain uses plexes to get pvp. You might want to rephrase your statement.

Great point. Now go attack Huola or a system the Minmatar care about.

Great point. Now go attack Huola or a system the Minmatar care about.

Why is the system right next to your staging system still at 0.07% contested then? If you're doing a massive plexing push. Surely you could throw thrashers & cloaky tristans at that all day and easily reship?

And since it works for you that must mean its awesome. Congrats. Atron ftw.

Really? I plex and get pvp all the time. And even Cearain uses plexes to get pvp. You might want to rephrase your statement.

No, it just means it works. If a moron like me can get a mechanic to work, I'm sure brain surgeons in MOAR TEARS and Fweddit can.

No, it just means it works. If a moron like me can get a mechanic to work, I'm sure brain surgeons in MOAR TEARS and Fweddit can.

That +225% LP gain is used in missions. which lvl 4 FW missions is where the isk is.

Yup, I misswrote that regarding the offensive plex Lp increase. It only regards missions. The reason why I wrote that mistakenly is that i havent plexed since last October, the last Gallente big lp-dump to Tier 5, so this proves you how much of a plexer I am.

Which doesnt change a thing to my opinion. There is no current incentive of flipping systems to a complete blue map. So tell me, what is the incentive of gaining map dominance?

The incentive is if you own t5, then you get the +225% bonus to mission Lp. Which is like 100k LP per missions. Which you can then use to abuse the LP store. So there is your reason to be in t5 and own all the systems. Only the war zone farmers plex and they only do it so they can keep that tier 5 or 4 of the warzone so their SB alts can make bank.

Once again, proving that you dont know what your talking about. If you cant understand how amazing +225% LP gain per LVL 4 mission which are ******** easy to run as minmatar becuase lasers cant track for **** from amarr rats then you sire should probably re-evaluate your knowledge on the FW mechanics.

What I understand is that Gall/Caldari and Amar/Minm Fw space are very different. I should have defined that I was speaking of my home space, gallente warzone, where T2 is resilient since many weeks. You're right 225% mission Lp sounds amazing, but as it seems, no one appears to care about it in Gall/Cald space. Apparently everyone turns to Minmatar zone to run missions, thus creating this unbalance between warzones.

You're right, I have little knowledge of minmatar warzone, I can only tell you that if you're looking for honorable combat, you should come reside in Placid/Black rise, where you wont have to wait more than 5 minutes to be engaged, and thus forget your pains and misery, and all this sufering of yours will seem far away in our beloved homespace. Change sides. Gall/Cald to die with honor, Min/amar for the pocket money. There, your problem is solved. Now get off the forums, leave your corporation and join Moira.

What I understand is that Gall/Caldari and Amar/Minm Fw space are very different. I should have defined that I was speaking of my home space, gallente warzone, where T2 is resilient since many weeks. You're right 225% mission Lp sounds amazing, but as it seems, no one appears to care about it in Gall/Cald space. Apparently everyone turns to Minmatar zone to run missions, thus creating this unbalance between warzones.

You're right, I have little knowledge of minmatar warzone, I can only tell you that if you're looking for honorable combat, you should come reside in Placid/Black rise, where you wont have to wait more than 5 minutes to be engaged, and thus forget your pains and misery, and all this sufering of yours will seem far away in our beloved homespace. Change sides. Gall/Cald to die with honor, Min/amar for the pocket money. There, your problem is solved. Now get off the forums, leave your corporation and join Moira.

The gallente are just as bad as minmatar for rabbit plexing. In general the 2 fronts are about the same for "honorable combat." Gallente does a bit more gatecamping than the minmatar or amarr but thats about it.

Everyone pretty much acknowledged that runnign rabbit alts in pve ships is the way to win/hold over 90% of the space in the current mechanics. Can we not even agree that ccp should do something to make the game better?

Can we not even agree that ccp should do something to make the game better?

What I understand is that Gall/Caldari and Amar/Minm Fw space are very different. I should have defined that I was speaking of my home space, gallente warzone, where T2 is resilient since many weeks. You're right 225% mission Lp sounds amazing, but as it seems, no one appears to care about it in Gall/Cald space. Apparently everyone turns to Minmatar zone to run missions, thus creating this unbalance between warzones.

You're right, I have little knowledge of minmatar warzone, I can only tell you that if you're looking for honorable combat, you should come reside in Placid/Black rise, where you wont have to wait more than 5 minutes to be engaged, and thus forget your pains and misery, and all this sufering of yours will seem far away in our beloved homespace. Change sides. Gall/Cald to die with honor, Min/amar for the pocket money. There, your problem is solved. Now get off the forums, leave your corporation and join Moira.

Can we not agree that the game is awesome and FacWar is a lot better than in the past?

Putting your hand in your pocket and pulling out dog **** is better then pulling out horse ****... Still sucks that you pulled **** out of your pocket...

Just ignore the fact that caldari score 30-40% more vp every day than gallente. Whats one more fact to ignore when you are in the swing of it, right Cearain?

And since it works for you that must mean its awesome. Congrats.

Atron ftw.

Can we not agree that the game is awesome and FacWar is a lot better than in the past?


As a matter of fact you know what? I have a solution. My previous dialog with Rommell Drako has led me to the following; why dont we just agree that Minmatar space is farming ground, and Gall/Caldari where the money is spent on war. We all tacitly agree that one space remains our money mill, the other our field of battle.

away with the phonecalls

And since it DOESN-¿T work for you that must mean its broken. Congrats.

Can we not agree that the game is awesome and FacWar is a lot better than in the past?


As a matter of fact you know what? I have a solution. My previous dialog with Rommell Drako has led me to the following; why dont we just agree that Minmatar space is farming ground, and Gall/Caldari where the money is spent on war. We all tacitly agree that one space remains our money mill, the other our field of battle.

away with the phonecalls

Juan, I guess we're doing it all wrong. Let's move to nullsec, err, non FW low sec, err.. non sov 0.0, err. high sec, and get some real fights.

Please comment more about how EPA was factional warfare.

Here-¦s another try at this discussion...

1. No, FW is not perfect and far from it. It is however MUCH better than it ever was in the past, and CCP has done a great job in the past iterations. Does it need fixing? for sure (as everything in Eve. I mean come on look at Nullsec and count your blessings) but it-¦s not "broken".

2. That some -or even many- people come to post threads about FW being broken doesn-¦t mean it is, because their opinion is not that of all the people playing the FW game. On the flip side, if people came here to post threads about how it-¦s perfect, they would also be wrong to generalize their own particular and personal opinion and try to impose it on others.

3. If you have problems holding on to your systems, instead of yelling at ccp and calling them "scared bitches"... have you really stopped to consider yelling at the many many amarr that have minmatar plexing alts and are thus ******* you over? if yo have problem holding on to systems because the alt plexers come plex it up when you are not online, have you considered recruiting for that particular problematic tz and or talking to corps on that problematic timezone and getting them to move and help defend the system?

Have you stopped to think that there are so many Amarr (and caldari and some gallente too) corps and alliances that live in highsec or non fw lowsec that if they moved into their own FW system they might easily hold it down thus helping raise the tier status for the whole militia? and that those corps could also share intel channels and help each other out?

Note that these are all PLAYER actions that can influence the warzone without whining to CCP about it. Now if you want to whine and cry about the need for a timer rollback and maybe corp LP tax yeah sure I-¿ll be holding signs and shooting structures in Jita right there with you.

Maybe that just not possible on the minmatar/amarr front, I am not familiar with the area, but it seems to work for some caldari corps and it certainly works for Gallente corps. Hell, there are even Amarr corps defending their systems right now.

You say faction warfare is "broken" when CCPs own numbers show there are more fights happening, more stuff getting blown up. I say faction warfare is a mechanic created to do just that: give people the chance to duke it out in losec, and from that particular point of view, I-¦d say it-¦s working.

Just because your particular experience is ****** up do not pretend to impose it on others, nor build strawmen about us being interested in keeping it that way and being full of isk. If anything, Gallente has less systems to plex since the squids have been laying down for a bit, and thus less isk.

It is perhaps inevitable that we will find ourselves kicked out of our home systems. Faction Warfare has gone thru cycles since it started, with one side being dominant and then getting kicked in the nuts. Gallente spent months not too long ago at Tier 1, and we are barely into t2. You won-¦t hear us bitching about it tho, because even if we ARE kicked out of our home systems, it-¦ll be fighting and having tons of fun in the current imperfect in need of fixing but also great version of Faction Warfare.

Starting to really love this argument; More fights equals all fixed. lol

Sahtogas is heating up recently but it traditionally isn't even one of the top pvp systems on that front. Usuually its just lots of boring dplexing. You and your corp may be fine with that, (and cry bloody murder anytime someone suggests changes that would make the war pvp) but others want to actually fight a war.

After so much shite being posted i nthis thread I actually went back and looked at the original post.

It is textbook whining to CCP.

Basically the OP doesn't like FW but doens't give any potential 'fixes' and is mainly just complaining because over areas of eve are being looked at (i.e. null and explo)

If you want CCP to actually do something you need to give clear arguments as to why something is 'broken' and a justification for 'fixing' it, not just "wah wah wah I don't like it anymore do something CCP!!!" This is just another whine thread.

Does the current itteration of FW generate fights? : definately

Is it the kind of fights you want? : doesn't sound like it so maybe it's time for you to move on and find the kind of fights you want.

Best example is the Amarr Militia and Fweddit. Fweddit has a massive amount of kills and PVPs all the time. Yet the minmatar are (were) winning the warzone due to broken farming mechanics.

You clearly don't read then, because I'm strictly trying to get CCP to accept someones idea

FW is an isk faucet for risk averse cloak fit atrons. If working as intended then thats fine. But it is not a Faction Warfare anymore. Low sec Missioning and beacon orbiting maybe...

If this is what CCP wants then thats fine. Just change the name.

If CCP will say on this thread that it is working as intended... that afk plexers is what they want... then I would not be surpirsed when amarr stops running a single plex, only pvps, and publicly announces that every single amarr pilot has a minni mission running alt...

And +1 to Amarrian VENGEANCE who actually have the balls to live in FW space. .

You clearly don't read then, because I'm strictly trying to get CCP to accept someones idea, I'm not here to prove anything. Fact of the matter is that all too many have suggested ideas to make it better and CCP sits on their asses.

So, while you would like to coax me into some kind of "here is your proof" argument, keep in mind that I simply want CCP to be exposed for the real reasons no change happens, they fear losing subscriptions more than making things better.

I actually do this already. Honestly all you need is a meta 4 torp launcher and t2 fit purifier. Character bazaar can probably pull for like 1-2bil. Its super easy and you can actually make around 1 bil per 6 hours. notice how i PVE on my minni alt and pvp on my amarr main. Because that shows the system is working as intended.

My initial response was to this quote above. Using a corporation who station camps their non-FW high sec gate as an example of how FW is screwed up is laughable. (We should be winning, we pvp more!, lol)

The rest... yeah CCP should do something, but it's not the end of the Eve universe if they don't.

You clearly don't read then, because I'm strictly trying to get CCP to accept someones idea, I'm not here to prove anything. Fact of the matter is that all too many have suggested ideas to make it better and CCP sits on their asses.

So, while you would like to coax me into some kind of "here is your proof" argument, keep in mind that I simply want CCP to be exposed for the real reasons no change happens, they fear losing subscriptions more than making things better.

Yet, Fweddit last week scored the 2nd most kills out of every [non-npc] Faction Warfare corporation -- In Exile was first place. And, upon a closer examination of the killboards, virtually zero of those FW kills happened in Egghelende. So, I think your initial notion is incorrect. Egghelende kills account for a large amount of iWhip kills for sure, but obviously Fweddit & Company PvP outside of Egghelende.

Moreover, did you consider the lack of FW kills could perhaps be due to Eve's rampant risk aversion? Yesterday I plexed in a hull tanked, auto-cannon bantam. Yet, on two separate occasions, I warped into a plex with a single enemy Minmatar inside. The Minmatar warps out even with no one else in local. This isn't a typical "ONLY MINMATAR ARE PUSSIES" rant, but just showing that just because some groups may be "lacking" kills does not mean they are not actively trying to look for kills.

Even further, do you know how difficult it can be for a larger group like Fweddit to get a fun-sized skirmish? Fweddit can regularly roll with 40+ pilots, but will [understandably] rarely find a tango partner. In my experience, the decently sized skirmishes actually come mostly from neuts, local pirates, or the occasional visiting 0.0 entities. This isn't meant to be a bash at other Minmatar FW organizations, but I think speaks to the larger point raised in this (and many other threads) that larger, more militaristic muscle does not necessarily equate to Factional Warfare success. And, in my opinion, such muscle should actually equate to Factional Warfare success.

Instead, Factional Warfare success seems to involve coordinating a mass-scale effort orbiting beacons for 15+ minutes and upgrading systems every once in a while. If you're doing it right, you are actually trying to minimize conflict so you can complete more plexes. This sort of success is noteworthy considering the scale, but does not necessarily speak to "Warfare" part of Factional Warfare. Thus, in its current form, Faction Warfare seems to be a bit of a misnomer.

Edit: Source for statement in first paragraph: https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx

TL;DR - CCP please fix it so that 40 people in a single plex under little or no risk are more effective than 40 single people in 40 plexes looking for solo and small gang fights.

TL;DR 2 - CCP dont encourage blobs in FW like they do in dullsec and this upsets me. Please fix FW so its not broken like dullsec!

Why should kills directly affect a war?

seriously?

Ships in space blow each other up - its what the entire game revolves around.

Unlike your corp where you require people to orbit a plex everyday ...

...lots of people view eve as a game. They joined a war against a huge number of other players so that they can pvp.

Given the broken mechanics of fw living in a low sec non fw system like egg makes sense if you are pvper. If Minmatar/gallente had more pvpers they would move in to egg too. But they want to stay safe where the enemy can't even dock ships.

PVE online

Uh, nothing in my post was prescriptive at all -- did you ever see me say "should"? My post was completely descriptive and a response to highlight an entity that was being wrongly characterized by another poster.

...more militaristic muscle does not necessarily equate to Factional Warfare success. And, in my opinion, such muscle should actually equate to Factional Warfare success

...

Even further, do you know how difficult it can be for a larger group like Fweddit to get a fun-sized skirmish? Fweddit can regularly roll with 40+ pilots, but will [understandably] rarely find a tango partner. In my experience, the decently sized skirmishes actually come mostly from neuts, local pirates, or the occasional visiting 0.0 entities. This isn't meant to be a bash at other Minmatar FW organizations, but I think speaks to the larger point raised in this (and many other threads) that larger, more militaristic muscle does not necessarily equate to Factional Warfare success. And, in my opinion, such muscle should actually equate to Factional Warfare success.

Instead, Factional Warfare success seems to involve coordinating a mass-scale effort orbiting beacons for 15+ minutes and upgrading systems every once in a while. If you're doing it right, you are actually trying to minimize conflict so you can complete more plexes. This sort of success is noteworthy considering the scale, but does not necessarily speak to "Warfare" part of Factional Warfare. Thus, in its current form, Faction Warfare seems to be a bit of a misnomer.

Edit: Source for statement in first paragraph: https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx

Another thread that points out fw is still a broken carebear race. So yes another thread with the solution. Why do you think we keep getting these threads?

idk what war youzone you been fighting in the past few years. sahtogas has always been a hot area, being 1-2 jumps from the front lines and all.

and most of the saht locals dont give a **** about d-plexing.

So, while you would like to coax me into some kind of "here is your proof" argument, keep in mind that I simply want CCP to be exposed for the real reasons no change happens, they fear losing subscriptions more than making things better.

Bcos the whiney bitches from cal/amarr militia wanna cry its broke instead of manning up

Fair enough. Your corporation should be dominating FW. IMO, none of the proposed changes will fix your main issue (lack of TZ coverage), but yes something should be implemented.

i also love how when things arnt going peoples way or its not how they want to play it its BROKEN and HOW DARE CCP NOT FIX THIS

If you want real progress - these are some proposals or things in motion that might help:

Remove OGB - Veterans on both sides farm the crap out of new people entering FW. Those people leave. It makes it very hard to build a Euro TZ when those people have to enter being self sufficient killers. There is no room for error in that time zone.

Put tools in the LP store to help the losing side. I-HUB upgrades to slow plex spawns would be something I have suggested in the past.

Make kills move the contested bar in addition to plexes run. If we got credit for all the farmers in Sisiede we murdered we'd still own it!

NOPE this ones easy CCP spent a year on FW u would know that if u played or was in FW long enough its time for them to move on and sort other parts of the game that ppl are raging is "broken"....

i also love how when things arnt going peoples way or its not how they want to play it its BROKEN and HOW DARE CCP NOT FIX THIS

The whole FW system leaves one scratching their head. The reasons for holding a system, in order of importance, are:

Docking Rights
Cumulative Effect towards Tier
Bragging Rights
Denial of Enemy Mission Agents

Does anyone remember the large thread for system upgrade ideas in F&I? Nothing really came of it. I have yet to log on and hear a corpmate cursing that they lost the extra research slots from enemy plexing! In my eyes system ownership should give you some financial gain outside of FW. Owning a little fiefdom should be the focus - the fact that we get LP to PvP or run plexes is fantastic - but to make that the center of the system is ass backwards. People don't really need to be paid 2x or 3x the amount to circle a button. The end result of the FW system ownership. The ownership should bring the goods - not the process of acquiring it.

As for the TZ coverage. It's a catch 22. It's very easy to say on the forums, "hire more off-TZ pilots." It's another thing to actually do it. My corporation has been trying for months with various degrees of success. It comes back to the same issues:

Why should people join a losing faction?
Why should people quit the winning faction?

This is Eve. People dog-pile onto the winning team. We can talk about the 'pendulum swinging' until we're blue in the face. The fact is the nadir of that pendulum for Amarr lasts months. It takes a Herculean effort to push it back against the Minmatar - where it will stay for mere weeks. The process of doing that also burns out a hell of a lot of pilots. We constantly either lose pilots out the back door as fast as we recruit them or they simply stop logging on. In the meantime on almost a daily basis I see new Minmatar pilots, corporations, and even alliances.

Why? If Fweddit has seriously outgrown faction warfare (they haven't), then they should leave. The whole point of FW is that it's an environment where the ability to mass more guys in one fleet doesn't guarantee success. The issues with FW are not that a 40-man armor cruiser blob doesn't grant you victory. (P.S. armor cruisers are boring to both fly and fight. If the FC calls for them, just say no).

(Also, I'm not sure that the largest FW alliance by a considerable margin getting outperformed by an Alliance a fifth their size is something to be impressed by).

Under the current mechanics if they really want to win sov they should lose the pvp fits, get stabs, and do hide and seek plexing. It shouldn't be that way.

and with both warzones having flipped several times during that time the argument that "not going people's way.." is made rather dead.

.

How are there 19 systems that are vulnerable? Why has Gallente not flipped them? (all of the vulnerable systems are caldari owned, this is the definition of Minmatar plexing alts pushing their warzone).

.

leaving the system in caldari hands so they can continue to offensive plex it (more LP),

ok so rewind a few months amarr pushed to t4 so did caldaris and all was rosey amarr were chestbeating on forums there battleships were flavor of the month with ppl and the battle crys was out, fweddit was announcing glitter fleets were gunna take over and minnies prepare there holes .. (even you was happy im not trolling thru that threadnaught but it was there) you was earning u was happy.

caldaris were also crowing that daddy evoke had joined and now gallentes were gunna get beat back. (all smiles here and happy)

Game at this point working as intended...................

now the sides have flipped bk its BROKEN again and its always a caldari or amarr that posts these threads ... So argument not dead

What is a pvp sov mechanic? And how does it function when the other side is a no-show?

Don't say notifications..

This is a better of assessment of the problem than a lot of the suggestions in this thread, but that's very easy to say and very hard to do. The obvious solution is to punish people for rabbiting, though you can't go overboard, because if, e.g., we have timer resets if you abandon the plex to the defenders, then the optimal defensive strategy is blob attackers out of plexes in sequence. The other thing is, you really don't want to punish people for trying to fight at a disadvantage or make ignoring the enemy the optimal strategy (which is sort of the case now), which is what a lot of the proposals in this thread would do.

But the problem that is being expressed is that 40 pvpers, whether they stay together in the same blob or split up, will not be able to make any substantial resistance to the rabbit hordes.

The systems always been broken and the same amarr that whined BEFORE inferno, whined while inferno and are still whining.

ok so rewind a few months amarr pushed to t4 so did caldaris and all was rosey amarr were chestbeating on forums there battleships were flavor of the month with ppl and the battle crys was out, fweddit was announcing glitter fleets were gunna take over and minnies prepare there holes .. (even you was happy im not trolling thru that threadnaught but it was there) you was earning u was happy.

caldaris were also crowing that daddy evoke had joined and now gallentes were gunna get beat back. (all smiles here and happy)

Game at this point working as intended...................

now the sides have flipped bk its BROKEN again and its always a caldari or amarr that posts these threads ... So argument not dead

Just ignore the fact that caldari score 30-40% more vp every day than gallente. Whats one more fact to ignore when you are in the swing of it, right Cearain?

They pushed it to see if it COULD be done and to get some isk back for the LP they had. Minms reminded at a comfortable lvl and quickly regained control to a point thats it worse than it was before for the amarr.

The systems always been broken and the same amarr that whined BEFORE inferno, whined while inferno and are still whining.

If only that put as much effort into the warzone as they did badposting on the forums...

...(even you was happy im not trolling thru that threadnaught but it was there) you was earning u was happy....

ok so rewind a few months amarr pushed to t4 so did caldaris and all was rosey amarr were chestbeating on forums there battleships were flavor of the month with ppl and the battle crys was out, fweddit was announcing glitter fleets were gunna take over and minnies prepare there holes .. (even you was happy im not trolling thru that threadnaught but it was there) you was earning u was happy.

caldaris were also crowing that daddy evoke had joined and now gallentes were gunna get beat back. (all smiles here and happy)

Game at this point working as intended...................

now the sides have flipped bk its BROKEN again and its always a caldari or amarr that posts these threads ... So argument not dead

Nope we dont flip them and higher the tier level to discourage farmers t2 isnt a bad payout ;)

Wrong again you cant farm past vulnerable and cals dont deplex it so that farmers can earn putting it right bk in again while were not flipping them

If only that put as much effort into the warzone as they did badposting on the forums...

So they proved it could be done then the tide can be turned with co-operation, hardwork + TZ coverage, Feature working as intended

Jesus, Cearain. You act as if finding people plexing is hard. It's not. Right now no one shows up because no one gives a ****. Or, you know, they do show up, and the plexer runs. Or they show up and the plexer doesn't run and there's a fight.

Also, no.

Many people have no interest in having rabbit alts run timers and run from pvp. So we ask ccp to change the mechanics so that is no longer the winning strategy.

CCP isn't going to change anything because you're a whiny babby that isn't even involved in Faction Warfare right now. Any argument you attempt to make is lost, because guess what, you live in exactly the same place you did before, you just contribute nothing to that which you would argue about endlessly.

If you don't like faction warfare in it's current recreation, then quit (which you have) and stop whining about it on the forums (much to the betterment of everyone having to suffer through post after post of your endless drivel)

From Poetic stanzels blog:

Most Active Systems:
Kamela (3473)
Kourmonen (3121)
Huola (2320)
Sahtogas (1115)
Sosala (1097)

Most Active Systems:
Amamake (3986)
Rens (2823)
Siseide (2728)
Dal (2379)
Vard (1552)


There are 6 other systems with over 2 and 3xs the number of kills. In other words it you will get about 1/3 to 1/2 the number of fights in the same time. Those six systems are all within one or 2 jumps from kourm. Sahtogas is 5 jumps from kourm. Again we can characterize these facts however we want but there are the numbers.

It may have been bad luck but when I would head out there Sahtogas and its surrounding systems would be pretty dead. Lately, of course, that has changed. That was my point. Lately sahtogas has taken off and next to ammamake it has the most kills in the last 24 hours.

CCP isn't going to change anything because you're a whiny babby that isn't even involved in Faction Warfare right now. Any argument you attempt to make is lost, because guess what, you live in exactly the same place you did before, you just contribute nothing to that which you would argue about endlessly.

If you don't like faction warfare in it's current recreation, then quit (which you have) and stop whining about it on the forums (much to the betterment of everyone having to suffer through post after post of your endless drivel)

Most Active Systems:
Kamela (3473)
Kourmonen (3121)
Huola (2320)
Sahtogas (1115)
Sosala (1097)

Most Active Systems:
Amamake (3986)
Rens (2823)
Siseide (2728)
Dal (2379)
Vard (1552)


i guess the 'being 1-2 jumps from the front lines and all.' confused you. and maybe the 'past few years' also confused you to.

and even so according to your own words 'Sahtogas is heating up recently but it traditionally isn't even one of the top pvp systems on that front' accord to this post you just made its in the top 5. so idk whats up with that.

Jesus, Cearain. You act as if finding people plexing is hard. It's not. Right now no one shows up because no one gives a ****. Or, you know, they do show up, and the plexer runs. Or they show up and the plexer doesn't run and there's a fight.

Also, no.

some will say too many will react to the intel and it will be blobs! Others like you say no one will react to the intel. I think enough will react to the intel so rabbit plexing will end. But the war zone is too large (and there are too many different sized plexes) for a single or even 5 or 6 blobs to control the whole warzone.

ALL of the above is the answer

If only that put as much effort into the warzone as they did badposting on the forums...

Thanks alucard. I think this thread now has all the standard bad arguments to preserve the current rabbit plexing game called fw sov.

8) if we let the pvpers know where people are plexing no one will respond!

and in the very same post

9) If we let pvpers know where people are plexing too many will respond!

I think those were the last of the standard arguments in favor of keeping the current carebear race.

Now I think we can expect those who like the current hide and seek plexing to just continue with comments like "notifications are stupid" or "cearain shouldn't post so much"

So they proved it could be done then the tide can be turned with co-operation, hardwork + TZ coverage, Feature working as intended

This notification idea however, is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

I don't chase farmers because they tend to be people that don't want to fight, its not because I cant find them or they 'give me the slip' and go into some back system. Peoples time is limited, the 'true pvpers' you care so much about are going to move on the instant a farmer shows what he is. Sure I could chase him, warp back and forth, maybe he'll slip up, but on average my time is better spent moving on. Again, what do I care if a stabbed condor is plexing 13 jumps away? Hes still going to be 30km off the warp in, stabbed, and in warp anyway by the time I land, nothing you do is going to change that.

Which brings me to my second point, why does anyone with a functioning brain want to rely on a notification system? The system doesnt know **** about my militias priorities, again, wtf do I care if some as***e is plexing in Nagamen in a cloaky rifter? Use your FW tab and see which systems are going up/down whatever, you'll notice if you actually care about those systems. Combined with intel channels and functioning intra militia relations, you will quickly be able to control your WZ. Quite frankly I would have to completely ignore you notification system if it was implemented, I'm sure others feel the same.

Your suggestions, to me, really highlight the fact that you do not operate within a militia. People hold on to the systems they decide to hold onto and live in. Systems where farming occurs that is detrimental to our militia, are quickly targeted and farmers dispersed. "Hide and Seek" plexing has not been the recent character of the relevant (to sov) aspects of FW. That you would think this in light of the past 5-6 months that has seen the advent of massive system capture efforts, home system versus home system, is quite bewildering.

There are farmers in Hallanen, but not in Nennamalia. Learn to live in or near systems you dont want farmed. A notification system is not going to grant you the ability to sail the seven seas slaying every farmer you see on some epic roam of the entirety of the FW WZ.

Before I read and catch up on what was posted since my last post I wanted to share some numbers with you.

System control numbers for each warzone

Amarr/Minmatar
Vulnerable: 0
Above 90%: 1
80-90%: 2
70-80%: 2
60-70%: 3
50-60%: 7

Caldari/Gallente
Vulnerable: 19
90%: 10
80-90%: 8
70-80%: 4
60-70%: 2
50-60%: 9

How are there 19 systems that are vulnerable? Why has Gallente not flipped them? (all of the vulnerable systems are caldari owned, this is the definition of Minmatar plexing alts pushing their warzone).

This is the definition of broken. No one in the gallente wants to fight the warzone. They are either also plexing, leaving the system in caldari hands so they can continue to offensive plex it (more LP), or dont understand the flip mechanics.

Anyway you look at it you have to realize this is broken. EVE FARMVILLE ONLINE is what faction warfare is and if you cant tell that by the numbers then you might not be cut out for spreadsheets online.

These numbers are also the reason why I never care for the opinions from anyone on that side of the warzone. These numbers disgust me.

I do all my pvp pretty much exlclusively in or at plexes. On average I would say I need to go about 5 systems to find someone running a plex. Often I will warp to plexes outside dscan range to find they are empty.

EDIT: also Xolve, how are you finding FW after this many months? oh wait never mind you left, question answered :P

The suggestion that has been made by multiple people to reset the timer when a farmer warps out would greatly change things. Sure there would still be some farmers making LP when no one challenges them, but they would be greatly disrupted by WTs and nuetrals coming in to lite them up.

If every time a farmer got chased out of a medium, the timer reset to 20 or 25 (whatever it is) then you would quickly see a reduction in carebears and an increase in those of us that take almost every fight.

I only warp out when the incoming ship/force is obviously too strong for me and is a loss waiting to happen. IE a rupture warping into the medium im trying to take in my cormorant. Will i lose the progress i made - yes. Did the defender do his job - yes.

If i cant hold control of the plex in one unbroken (no warpout) occupation of the site, i don't deserve the LP.

Come to think of it, add cloaking to that list also. No cloaking or the timer resets. These two measures combined would cripple plex farming and encourage only those that fight to try to take the plexes.

No one cares about the other 90% of the war zone because we don't have the tools to deal with rabbit plexers.

true stuff