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Blind Man	Posted - 2005.09.30 21:35:00 - [181] Originally by: JoCool The Ishtar is BY FAR the most powerful Heavy Assault Cruiser. Everyone with combat experience against it and in it can confirm this. Word.
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:02:00 - [182] Originally by: JoCool The Ishtar is BY FAR the most powerful Heavy Assault Cruiser. Everyone with combat experience against it and in it can confirm this. If this is so, why nerf it? Let's make the rest of the hacs better instead. All the nerf will do is make some other ship the best and in turn someone will then cry out for it's nerf thus making another hac the best and so on and so on. Nerfing is not a constructive way to fix anything. You improve things to fix them, so lets improve the rest of the HAC's instead of nerfing one. Sure it's more work for CCP, but hey it's thier job to service us, it's why the company exists afterall.
Denrace	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:05:00 - [183] Holy Cripes... 7 Pages already ____________________________________________ Custom Sigs Made. Convo for details http://photobucket.com/albums/b4/Denrace/
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:15:00 - [184] The Ishtar is NOT overpowered. It simply has an abundance of setups i.e versatility. This just creates this mysterious aura of uberness. Most other HAC's are terribly predictable in form and function i.e Eagle is going to snipe, Diemos will have small guns + plate, Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses, and well, I don't know enough about Minmatar to comment but I assume a Munin is used for long-range too. It's the same with the Dominix - its slot layout is such that you really have no idea what you'll be facing.
Stormfront	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:32:00 - [185] Fix Smartbombs in empire.. and you dont have to nerf an Ishtar.
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:33:00 - [186] Originally by: Deka Kador Most other HAC's are terribly predictable in form and function i.e Eagle is going to snipe, Diemos will have small guns + plate, Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses, and well, I don't know enough about Minmatar to comment but I assume a Munin is used for long-range too. Sounds like you don't know much about alot more than the minmatar ones
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:35:00 - [187] Originally by: Stormfront Fix Smartbombs in empire.. and you dont have to nerf an Ishtar. Make smartbombs only damage war enemies/aggression flagged/-5.1 sec status characters, I agree. Do the same for missile splash damage.
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:37:00 - [188] Edited by: Deka Kador on 30/09/2005 22:40:58 Originally by: Necrologic Originally by: Deka Kador Most other HAC's are terribly predictable in form and function i.e Eagle is going to snipe, Diemos will have small guns + plate, Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses, and well, I don't know enough about Minmatar to comment but I assume a Munin is used for long-range too. Sounds like you don't know much about alot more than the minmatar ones I'm speaking from my experiences against HAC's flown by IMP/PA/G Alliances - I've yet to kill a HAC that wasn't fitted like the above (I only fly Gallente HAC myself but save Deimos of missions and use Ishtar for PVP). Of course, having named said alliances, I might be forgiven for not having come across well-fitted ones
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:43:00 - [189] Originally by: Deka Kador Do the same for missile splash damage. Uh, missile splash damage has been gone for a very very very long time ________________________________________________________
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:44:00 - [190] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Deka Kador Do the same for missile splash damage. Uh, missile splash damage has been gone for a very very very long time Well, d'oh, I know that. I just think it should be brought back.
Pudder	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:52:00 - [191] Caldari Hacs still need boosting :P
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:54:00 - [192] Originally by: Deka Kador Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses. Zealot with small beams/pulses? lol?? ________________________________________________________
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:56:00 - [193] Originally by: Pudder Caldari Hacs still need boosting :P I'm not so sure - I think Caldari HAC's need to be looked at with a decent T2 setup before any adjustments are made. I think the changes to missiles weren't such a huge nerf as they were made out to be
Sadist	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:57:00 - [194] Originally by: Pudder Caldari Hacs still need boosting :P Only after Deimos gets more PG than eagle. And i mean _more_, not a 5 pg advantage. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Sadist - harsh to the idiots, kind to the smart
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:59:00 - [195] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Deka Kador Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses. Zealot with small beams/pulses? lol?? I know - I'm not saying that is what I'd use. I'm saying that is what I've seen. Zealot with Small Beams/Nos/1600mm+800mm plates. It's not a bad setup versus frigs, I guess. There's been the odd Zealot at 90km hitting for medium damage too but the anti-frig Zealot is way common.
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.30 23:01:00 - [196] Actually, having thought about the setups I've seen, it appears most HAC's are being setup as anti-frig. Is this a sign of frig-fleet popularity? Maybe frigs need to be nerfed
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.09.30 23:07:00 - [197] Originally by: Deka Kador Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Deka Kador Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses. Zealot with small beams/pulses? lol?? I know - I'm not saying that is what I'd use. I'm saying that is what I've seen. Zealot with Small Beams/Nos/1600mm+800mm plates. It's not a bad setup versus frigs, I guess. There's been the odd Zealot at 90km hitting for medium damage too but the anti-frig Zealot is way common. WTF? If you see someone flying a zealot like this then report them to the "EVE standards fitting committee" They lose all bonusses for fitting small guns. Thats a crime.
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.09.30 23:31:00 - [198] Originally by: Deka Kador Edited by: Deka Kador on 30/09/2005 22:52:39 Originally by: Necrologic Originally by: Deka Kador Most other HAC's are terribly predictable in form and function i.e Eagle is going to snipe, Diemos will have small guns + plate, Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses, and well, I don't know enough about Minmatar to comment but I assume a Munin is used for long-range too. Sounds like you don't know much about alot more than the minmatar ones I'm speaking from my experiences against HAC's flown by IMP/PA/G Alliances - I've yet to kill a HAC that wasn't fitted like the above (I only fly Gallente HAC myself but save Deimos of missions and use Ishtar for PVP). However, being the nice person I am, I'll invite you to quantify your assumption of my lack of fitting knowledge by asking your offering of other well-known setups of said HAC's. I don't mind admitting I'm wrong if proven to be. Let me know the last time you came across a blaster-Eagle, a Deimos without a plate (I'll make an admission here - railguns have been used on Deimos quite a few times but it's silly when you realise there is IRIDIUM ammo ebing used ), or a Zealot without Nos/small guns. I'll leave the Munin out because the only time I've come up against one was at 100km in EWOK and it never hit me once. I've seen some pritty succesful rail deimoses, but a plated deimos? Are you sure you don't have it confused with a thorax? Maybe an 800mm plate and electron blasters is what you mean? Any setup using a 1600 plate and frig guns is terrible, likewise for using frig guns on a zealot.
Trepkos	Posted - 2005.10.01 04:54:00 - [199] Originally by: Denrace Originally by: XGozzy Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. Hey man..i will give you a new skillbook for free. Its called "Constructive Forum Posting". Its a Rank 8 I suggest you train it too, before posting another topic like this. ---------------- Axe keepiru
Elrathias	Posted - 2005.10.01 06:16:00 - [200] ive got two figures to say here mmkay. ive never ever been so short on fitting space. and ive ot 5/5/5/4 skills atm. ive got .25 cpu left on it, and 4 grid. FOUR GRID AND A QUARTER OF A UNIT OF CPU. --------------------------
BlackDog Rackh'am	Posted - 2005.10.01 07:41:00 - [201] I was a big advocate of addressing the thorax drone bay,i agreed with the missile changes,i liked the mega pulse adjustments,since it was the only "short range" gun shooting out to 80km and i find it reasonable that my 1400's can't pop frigs at 10km. However,the Ishtar is a peculiar thing,that doesn't neccesarily need a nerf as a ship. Why?Because HAC's are pretty well done as a whole with SPECIALISED roles for each one.Exceptions are the caldari ones which need boosting,and the muninn may need a little more grid and one hi slot moved to med or low to perform well in its intended role. First off,i want to share ny opinion in relation to some things i consider to be misconceptions.Ishtar is THE solo hac out there and it will beat every other hac to a pulp hands down in a 1vs1. Staying at range,killing drones and what not is not the way to do it,since you depend on the ishtar to stay there long enough to be killed.You can't tackle at range.You need a specific setup to kill one,and this will make your setup suck against anything else you come by. I HAVE lost a vagabond to an ishtar.Since it's what i fly,i can comment a little bit in detail.A standard vaga will loose to a standard nosing ishtar solo,it's cap is too small and if you're webbed your toast. Only solution might be faction webs/scramblers with increased range,and they are too expensive to pvp with. Another way to do it is a cap booster with a L shield booster II,while you defy his nos,start popping his drones,tank him and AB/MWD all at the same time.However,it's too much of a specific setup to be of any use in other circumstances.As for arties,only 650's will fit in a decent setup(ie one which is not full of RCU's),and the combination of the vagabond's high speed and lack of a tracking bonus,along with the 650's sub par damage makes them a not so desirable option.It's not bad,it's just not in line with the ships nature,which was made with autocannons in mind.Close in,tackle,and let it rip. That being said,i don't think the ship itself needs a nerf. It is a highly specialised ship,with a highly specialised role,as all HAC's.I can take a short range vaga to a sniper fleet and be useful wiping the floor with the enemy tacklers,keeping my BS's safe. An ishtar pilot can't do it unless he is prepared to leave a bunch of drones behind on the first sign of being called primary. It's the best solo short range ship.It's also a quality addition to roaming ganksquads due to armor tanking leaving a lot of mids free for tackling or EW.However,it's not a lot more than that,and it's totally useless in any long range scenario. A deimos is the raw DPS king,and the award for all around combat performance goes to the zealot and the vagabond.The zealot is fast enough to have a use in short and medium range fleets with pulses,and does well in BS fleets with beams. The vagabond is one hell of a ship to fly solo,your buddies in BS fleets will love you for not letting the enemy tackle them,and it has frigate-like handling.Use a nanofiber or two and you have the perfect addition to a roaming frigate squad,the only ship that can keep up with an interceptor gang and with a decent punch. I'm trying to work out a decent way to kill ishtars,until then i just don't engage them solo. What we gather from the above discussion is that the hac world is rock-paper-scissors game(=variety in tactics,which is good), and pretty much balanced with a couple of exceptions already stated at the start.Almost every hac has a decent place out there. I'll have to agree with eyeshadow and nyxus.It's the drones and their mechanics which need to be looked into.Improve the drone AI,make small and medium ones a useful option,limit the heavies' effectiveness against medium/small ships,and maybe lower their volume and restrict max amount in space.Only other solution is to limit the ishtar's slots,but that goes against the philosophy of all ships in a class having the same total amount of slots.
fairimear	Posted - 2005.10.01 11:03:00 - [202] The ishtar is special. It not overpowered by any means. If you set it up for tank and nosts+ drones it's weak to ranged and ecm atack, as well as lack of speed. ECM fit's are going to have it waek to groups and slow also. Gun fit's are just not using it's full potential. THE most dangerous thing about the ishtar now is that it's adaptable. see a deimos, you know chance's are it's either plate or gank. same with zealot. Vaga's are either tank or speed. and so on. the ishtar is special because it can be adapted. SO tbh don't nerf the ishtar, STOP the specilisation.
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.10.01 12:52:00 - [203] max skills it can use 15 heavys, and can store 20 heavys max do the smart thing and pop his droens first - then his damge output is almost zero web a heavy drone and they pop fast to any gun
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol	Posted - 2005.10.01 14:42:00 - [204] meh, i dont fly it so signed. --------------------------------------------- "Where the air is crisp."
Doppleganger	Posted - 2005.10.01 15:11:00 - [205] I havent flown one and havent fought one but all I know is they are selling faster than we can build them so I say don't nerf the ishtar hehehe.
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.10.01 15:25:00 - [206] Originally by: Deka Kador Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Deka Kador Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses. Zealot with small beams/pulses? lol?? I know - I'm not saying that is what I'd use. I'm saying that is what I've seen. Zealot with Small Beams/Nos/1600mm+800mm plates. It's not a bad setup versus frigs, I guess. There's been the odd Zealot at 90km hitting for medium damage too but the anti-frig Zealot is way common. Why not just use an Omen? - Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
A Brr	Posted - 2005.10.01 17:29:00 - [207] my 2 cent: * Selling Ishtar, no waiting list, insane price ;) * We have to compare HAC with BS, because HAC cost as much as a BS, and you need less skills to fly a BS than a HAC... * The demand / price / usability of ships is always subject to change, atm the ishtar is on high demand, thanx to all those posts claiming the Ishtar to be the best HAC.
Tomias Itaraou	Posted - 2005.10.01 18:28:00 - [208] Like the Dominix, the Ishtar is the most powerful HAC 1v1. However, also like the Dominix, its fairly useless in fleet battles(Unless you mount rails on it, in that case, get a deimos) Tradeoff, solo versatility vs sepcialized fleet capability.
Vathar	Posted - 2005.10.01 19:45:00 - [209] Edited by: Vathar on 01/10/2005 19:45:33 Originally by: Deka Kador Most other HAC's are terribly predictable in form and function i.e Eagle is going to snipe, Diemos will have small guns + plate, Zealot will be Nos + Small Beams/Pulses, and well, I don't know enough about Minmatar to comment but I assume a Munin is used for long-range too. Huh????? Deimos and Zealot both have THREE of the ship's bonuses that affect medium hyrbids/lasers! Anybody fitting small guns on them deserves to get a killmail (with his ship first place of course) I've met a bunch of zealots and deimos lately, I can't say for sure that they had a plate or not, but they certainly weren't using small guns !!! ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.10.01 20:31:00 - [210] Originally by: Meridius Oh noes! Someone thinks there HAC sucks (cerb) and wants to ruin other pilots days by trying to nerf theirs. This has to be a new low in quest to boost the cerb Have you ever flown a Cerb into PVP? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

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