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Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
29
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
Generally if one ship/system is high of its proper place on the power curve nerf it, it is lower buff it,
The tricky part is when balance is really whacked and you have to move everything at once.
This in my opinion is how angels got overpowered, they realized non sansha pirate boats were weak, and projectiles were a little off,
So they buffed projectiles (more damage types), buffed the angel ships, and buffed the TE far the hell of it in a way that helped projectiles the most )falloff).
So now you had the fastest ships with a gun that could be useful at long range and boom you have OP. |

Lallante
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
295
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 10:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:It seems CCP has the wrong idea of how to balance ships. When a ship or style of fighting becomes OP, they need to improve other ships and styles rather than make the ships everyone loves to fly (cough cough... Hurricane) worse. If many pilots are flying a ship because it is successful, why nerf it?
Tracking enhancers are a large part of PVP and removing the optimal range bonus will make many ships close to impossible to fly. Almost none of the ships that change will impact the most have the mid slots to add tracking computers. Furthermore, when people have skilled into certain ships, such as Minmatar, the last thing they want to see is all of their favorite ships nerfed.
CCP Stop nerfing minmatar ships. Seriously. What is the point? All you are doing is pissing people off instead of making the game more fun. How about you increase armor HP. Or increase the bonus for the honeycombing skill. Or improve web drones. I have been playing Eve for a year and a half, (I know that isn't long compared to some) but it seems CCP is trying to make small gang PVP worse. And if you are going to nerf something how about nerf jamming. Nothing else in EWAR takes a ship completely out of the fight. That could easily be balanced by creating targeting assist drones that significantly increase your sensor strength.
You are everything that is wrong with most other games. Thank **** CCP knows your tricks.
Hint: if there is a ship "everyone loves to fly" its almost certainly because its stupidly overpowered. |

Fornic McKraken
Deadman W0nderland Tribal Band
1
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Posted - 2013.05.06 07:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
Not that anyone is paying attention to this post anymore. But stupid comments like the one posted by Lallante are not productive. So people like me are the problem with games? what because you lose to them? My KB isn't even all that good. I like good fights and don't rely on ganking. I lose ships all the time because I enjoy pvp and don't really care.
Yes I may have exaggerated the potential impact of the TE nerf on some ships but I still dislike the idea of making ships worse just cause they are too good at killing. How about make the ships losing all the time better instead. There are many ways of doing that but instead of offering good ideas, many people just cried like babies. "Whaaa Whaaa, I die to AC ships, they need to be nerfed." Instead of trying to belittle me for trying to think of ways to make ships better able to fight kiting ships, how about you offer new ideas. |

Robert Lefcourt
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
17
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Posted - 2013.05.06 08:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:So Cynabals being able to kite you outside of web range and hitting you for full damage with autocannons is completely good game design right.
Devs already stated that they will be nerfed.
regards,
Rob |

Robert Lefcourt
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 08:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
So if one ship is out of line they should buff all others instead of nerfing one? You have to consider what goes along with buffing a whole line of ships. Get one wrong, and you will have to buff the others to keep up, an endless spiral. Ships are getting too easy to fly in Plexes and Missions and so on. Nah, nerfing the one which is out of line is much, much more efffective.
Regards,
Rob |

Tashima
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
2
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Posted - 2013.05.06 09:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:It seems CCP has the wrong idea of how to balance ships. When a ship or style of fighting becomes OP, they need to improve other ships and styles rather than make the ships everyone loves to fly (cough cough... Hurricane) worse. If many pilots are flying a ship because it is successful, why nerf it? They have exactly the right idea. Its how you do it. You cant try and balance a single "OP" ship by making every other ship better. That's just stupid. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
985
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 09:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:sabre906 wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:Easy solution: stop flying the flavor of the day. Be--- *gasp* --- original. Fly like a masochist loser.  "Original" fits are bad. All the working fits have already been invented by someone else. You are not a special snowflake. Whatever you come up with will either be not original, or crap. You're quite right, everyone should just be yet another sheep-like unoriginal failure. Good advice. You keep flying that Battleclinic-fit Machariel, Mr. Awesome. how about you try eating a barrel of crude oil for breakfast? or wearing a refrigerator box instead of clothes and a pair of smartphones for shoes? imo it's the best way to ensure that you are not an unoriginal failure. also, battleclinic fits and working fits are two sets that barely overlap.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 01:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
Not that anyone is paying attention to this post anymore. But stupid comments like the one posted by Lallante are not productive. So people like me are the problem with games? what because you lose to them? My KB isn't even all that good. I like good fights and don't rely on ganking. I lose ships all the time because I enjoy pvp and don't really care.
Yes I may have exaggerated the potential impact of the TE nerf on some ships but I still dislike the idea of making ships worse just cause they are too good at killing. How about make the ships losing all the time better instead. There are many ways of doing that but instead of offering good ideas, many people just cried like babies. "Whaaa Whaaa, I die to AC ships, they need to be nerfed." Instead of trying to belittle me for trying to think of ways to make ships better able to fight kiting ships, how about you offer new ideas.
I already answered it, it is called power creep. It really is that simple.
If you keep buffing everything to match the strongest ships you will end up with say.. lets take the example of the hurricane.
So now we buff everything up to hurricane levels, making battleships (who already struggle in smaller pvp (ie not huge f1 alpha blobs) even worse looking. Ok so lets buff those as well... see where this is going? Oh wait, now cruisers are crap, lets buff.. and lets see frigs.. soon we have frigs with 50.000 DPS because we just over the years kept buffing things instead of when we have 1 or two ships in a class that are clearly MUCH better then their peers we could you know.. bring them down to the correct level where they will fit in with the others in that class and the class above and below.
WHich is what CCP is doing. For a looong time cruisers and frigs where.. well.. why fly them over the drake and hurricane? There really was no point, so now they are fixed and what do we see in lowsec (the area I can comment on as that is where I pvp)... well we see cruiser gangs... lots of them.. we see drone ships.. we see battlecruisers... hell we even see frig gangs... we now have a healthy diversity of ships all flittering around melting face and crying buckets in local :) the way it should be.
Could we have had that with your suggested method of buffing? Sure but we end up like WOW where there is just bigger and bigger numbers flying but little balance (last i checked years ago).
Avoiding power creep is a VERY VERY VERY VERY good strategy when it comes to balance.
And CCP is on the correct track.. and pvp is much more fun now that you dont just see hurricanes frakking everywhere! |

Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 07:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
That's not a reasonable suggestion. EVE Online has approximately 144 sub-cap T1/T2 ships (read that as non-civilian), another 16 or so pirate ships, and another 20 or so navy ships for roughly 180 sub-cap combat ships in total. Buffing all of them, or even anything more than a very small percentage of them, would require more work and more testing than nerfing a single ship would. That in turn could easily chain react into needing to buff more ships and put them through another round of balance testing as well.
By the same token if all the other ships in a given class perform within given parameters, and these parameters are ones set forth by CCP and classified as desirable, then it's reasonable to presume that they're not broken, the ship they're going to nerf is. In this situation the old saw "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes into play.
I sincerely doubt anyone is missing your point so much as dismissing your point due to how that philosophy is not part of good game design. |

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 08:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibi8iHMqjFs |
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Leeloo Vacarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 12:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hey Pilots,
even though I know you will insult me now, but honestly... for me EvE is just about fun and epicness. I dont fly ships because they are OP or simply the optimal solution for a certain task, I fly them because I can relate to them.
I do know that it would make me an easy bait in PvP as I dont allways use the optimal configuration for a ship regarding its bonuses but otherwise it males me pretty unpredictable. And nothing is feared more then something totaly unpredictable. I dont want a hangar full of ships I dont like but serve the porpose.
I never would fly Minmatar ships. Not because I have not the right skills or the ships got nerfed, but I am Amarr and for the Empress sake, I would never fly in a Slave Pod 
I would love to see pilots follow their hears, not the stats.
So... but some LAZOORS on the Raven 
|

Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 18:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Leeloo Vacarian wrote:So... but some LAZOORS on the Raven 
I think that the typhoon's better for lasers... [Typhoon, Tachyphoon] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II
100MN Afterburner II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas EM Ward Field Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Garde II x4 Hobgoblin II x5 |

Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
371
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 18:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Leeloo Vacarian wrote:So... but some LAZOORS on the Raven  I think that the typhoon's better for lasers... [Typhoon, Tachyphoon] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II 100MN Afterburner II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas EM Ward Field Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Garde II x4 Hobgoblin II x5 you are doing it all wrong different crystal for each laser or how do you make rainbows?:O |

Noisrevbus
441
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 18:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Lady Naween wrote:They answered this many times.
to avoid power creep.
Lol .
Nothing against you mate, or your reasons for putting it like that. I understand what you meant when putting it out there. It's just funny seeing the comment given recent events since power creep seems to be the new mantra. Almost every recent change has been a power creep (let's make better HACs than HACs, let's make AF better and then Frigs better than AF so we need to creep AF again and let's round that off with Cruisers and BC.
To answer the OP: it's irrelevant wether the nerf or buff things, it's two sides of the same coin and it's only the blind hawing cattle that would make a distinction between the two claiming it strains your psyche more to see your darlings nerfed than it's peers buffed. The reason anyone should either nerf or buff should be balancing out intolerable disparities and using the most effective method to do so given the situation or context.
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Dyphorus
VC Academy
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:Most of you are missing my point. I never said kiting AC ships were not OP. I never said there wasn't a need for balancing. I said, in order to balance the ships they should improve others rather than nerf.
Not that anyone is paying attention to this post anymore. But stupid comments like the one posted by Lallante are not productive. So people like me are the problem with games? what because you lose to them? My KB isn't even all that good. I like good fights and don't rely on ganking. I lose ships all the time because I enjoy pvp and don't really care.
Yes I may have exaggerated the potential impact of the TE nerf on some ships but I still dislike the idea of making ships worse just cause they are too good at killing. How about make the ships losing all the time better instead. There are many ways of doing that but instead of offering good ideas, many people just cried like babies. "Whaaa Whaaa, I die to AC ships, they need to be nerfed." Instead of trying to belittle me for trying to think of ways to make ships better able to fight kiting ships, how about you offer new ideas.
Yes everyone gets what you're saying. Yes it's been rebutted properly several times. The answer is power creep.
If you keep buffing everything, you end up with mudflation and even greater imbalance.
As you don't seem to get what people are saying, here's a simple example. CCP does as you say and buffs EVERYTHING else up rather than nerfing ONE thing that is broken. Yay, no one is sad because their favorite toy ate a nerf. Then you see how it effects the rest of the meta. Oh look, we buffed all BC's to bring them up to the Hurricane level. Then next week, oh but now the Harby is a bit over powered, so we'll bring everything up to that level. A series of across the board buffs later and BC's are now approaching BS class performance while being miles above that of cruisers. So, under your philosophy every ship class get's buffed to bring them back up into performance. Now, since you've just buffed 100 different things, something is bound to be out of balance and you start all over again.... Starting to get the point?
If ONE thing is overly strong, you bring ONE thing down. You do not bring everything else up to it.
And before you reply 'but minmi keep getting nerfed over and over'.... It was necessary. The term Winmitar was coined for a reason. Rusty buckets were OP for a very long time. Yes the nerf's hurt when you're use to flying ships that strong, they were always my primary as well. It's for the good of the game. Deal with it. |

Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1302
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:15:00 -
[46] - Quote
There's a basic fundamental to the CCP thinking here: if too many people use something, it must be broken. After all, we're all EASY BUTTON gamers, and having to actually THINK to use stuff is just plain wrong. Vaga? Broken. Tengu? Broken. Heavies? Broken (well, sorta... still people saying it was a nerf, but whatever). Hybrids were truly broken, so they fixed 'em; and still people complain about them being broken.
Play your own game. Don't waste time on the flavor of the day, or the ravings of "lolbadfit" from Battleclinic or these forums. Just fly what you want to fly, and screw those purists who DEMAND you fit one particular way (ie, all the Gnosis haters raving lately). "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |

Haulie Berry
606
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Fornic McKraken wrote:It seems CCP has the wrong idea of how to balance ships. When a ship or style of fighting becomes OP, they need to improve other ships and styles rather than make the ships everyone loves to fly (cough cough... Hurricane) worse. If many pilots are flying a ship because it is successful, why nerf it?
Yeah, guys. Why fix the one outlier, when instead they could fix EVERYTHING else to match the outlier? That obviously makes more sense. |

Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
145
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
cause everyone wants to be a hipster |

Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 21:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:cause everyone wants to be a hipster
Hey, who wouldn't want to be a cute little hipster? http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff8/Marikhen/Hipsters.jpg |
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