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Megadon	Posted - 2005.10.06 09:28:00 - [91] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 06/10/2005 09:26:10 Edited by: Wrayeth on 06/10/2005 09:22:56 So: three things to srew caldari in this patch... 1.) Sig radius reduction module. Self-explanatory. 2.) Hit point increase means longer fights, which in turn means shield tank cap need will put shield tankers out of the fight far sooner than it will armor tankers. 3.) Extender and Plate changes mean that no one will fit an extender on anything smaller than a battleship. Also, extenders are still impossible to fit and have less hitpoints than armor plates. EDIT: Not part of the patch, but a big WTF goes out to CCP for the increased CPU on tech II ballistic controls. Yes, the hits keep coming don't they? Just train Amarr and move on, I think that's the only choice quite honestly.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.06 09:39:00 - [92] Originally by: Megadon Yes, the hits keep coming don't they? Just train Amarr and move on, I think that's the only choice quite honestly. Actually, I can already fly Amarr battleships and use large energy turrets, though I don't have them trained up very far. Turns out I really didn't like them. Minmatar ships, on the other hand, are excellent. My tempest rocks...but still doesn't change the fact that I want to fly caldari ships, too - it's just that they mostly suck atm. Only truly good ships are the harpy and the crow, and perhaps the scorpion if you don't mind having the damage output of a cruiser. -Wrayeth
Camel S	Posted - 2005.10.06 09:59:00 - [93] As usual! Changes looks good, as usual! Lots of changes, as usual! Players will whine, as usual! Players will adapt, as usual! Players will find the unbalanced advantage you didn't think of, as usual! And the reward you will get for introducing lots of changes at once will be to re-balance lots of things again, as usual!
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.10.06 14:44:00 - [94] I really really like the idea of making fights last longer. My only concern (and yes moaning minnies and all that..) is that this will favour those races that tank and have good cap over those that well... dont, and have cap that is embarassing to take home to your parents. I.e. us minnies. Obviously without testing it etc this is just speculation. But a flat increase helps the tankers out more. Minmatar ships are generally low on cap and have a slot layout that doesnt specialise in either shield or armour tanking and thus, would lose out more compared to say, Amarr, who are looking to rock with these new changes. Someone tell me im wrong. please. Cos i want fights to last longer, i just dont want to fly a different races ship for things to be evenly balanced. - Just a simple warrior.
The Wizz117	Posted - 2005.10.06 14:44:00 - [95] Edited by: The Wizz117 on 06/10/2005 14:46:26 New module available to decrease Signature Radius We uhm ... have a ... new module available to decrease Signature Radius. Title ruined that one for me. Anyways, it's a bit dangerous since Signature Radius affects a lot of things so by all means go and check it out, we need good feedback on it. this will terribly nerf the missiles (not only the frigates wich olrady are invulnable think of an apoc with a couple of these things on the lows). how many more missile nerfs have to come? (target painters and/or webifiers do not effect missile damage)
Jacob Majestic	Posted - 2005.10.06 14:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Wrayeth 2.) Hit point increase means longer fights, which in turn means shield tank cap need will put shield tankers out of the fight far sooner than it will armor tankers. Wait just a minute here! We Caldari get reduced volume for cap booster charges, meaning that we can get 800 cap back every 22 seconds on a cruiser with a medium electrochemical cap booster and the largest available charges! This is certainly enough to run a LSB II! NOT To add insult to injury, cap boosters are yet another midslot on Caldari ships that already have huge problems deciding how to fit their mids. CCP might as well remove all the Raven's mids and give the Raven a dedicated "shield tank button", FFS.
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.10.06 14:59:00 - [97] The sig radius decrease mod sounds like its really needed, atleast for the smaller ships, which will be even less useful against bigger ships without this and the other changes. I just hope its a low slot, and takes little or no cpu/grid. If its in med slot it would be a cruel nerf (again) for shield tankers.
Jacob Majestic	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle I just hope its a low slot, and takes little or no cpu/grid. If its in med slot it would be a cruel nerf (again) for shield tankers. Either low slot, to make the armor tankers make some freaking decisions post-stacking penalty nerf, or high slot, to give all the ships that have a solid rack of turrets in their high slots (I'm looking at you, Amarr and Gallente) some hard decisions WRT damage v. tanking. This module as a mid slot would make it a major disaster for the Caldari, while every other race would continue happily armor tanking, except now with a reduced sig radius. Classy.
NoNameNewbie	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:19:00 - [99] okay where to start ... DMG Mod Stacking First look: ftw, less dmg yey Sencond look: well nice try but, its just a major nerf to Amarr/Gallente as Mimatar/Caldari can still run a full gank outfit and the other races cant :D So Mimatar will be the flavour of the next month after the patch as they still instapop every stuff in eve. Atm i'm using 4 dmg mods on my mim char and after that patch i would still run 4 dmg mods, because everyone will stick to full dmg outfit as its still possible/usefull (not on all races but who cares). Dont nerf stuff ! give ppl something to fit which is more usefull ! Cap Injector blabla nothing wrong with it Sig Radius Stuff OMG my caldari char will cry sooooooooooooooooooo big tears ... Dont play arround with that ! Hardener Stuff Well active hardener giving a res boost in inactive state ? lol who cares .. Ship Hitpoints first look: cool more hp \o/ second look: omg u need more firepower to kill stuff = more ganking and ppl will always fit the full 4 dmg mods to be able to kill stuff Dont just give boosts ! think about the consequences :/ Plates nerf weeeee back to the 2 Shipclasses pvp since cruiser are getting useless, they need HP to survive but with giving them less agility they are sitting ducks and just die to the dmg mod fitted bs. Same goes for shield extender ...
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:25:00 - [100] Can people please stop acting like all Minmatar players fly a Tempest and it can instapop a dreadnought. Ta :) - Just a simple warrior.
Jacob Majestic	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:33:00 - [101] Originally by: NoNameNewbie Hardener Stuff Well active hardener giving a res boost in inactive state ? lol who cares .. Yea, no kidding. If you don't have the cap to activate an active hardener, you're already sucked dry by a NOS and no amount of hardening by your inactive modules is going to save you. In fact, the only module in the entire game that I can see this being useful for is an Invulnerability Field II, because it costs so much cap to run it and it would give a small boost to all your resists when inactive.
NoNameNewbie	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:51:00 - [102] Originally by: Jacob Majestic Yea, no kidding. If you don't have the cap to activate an active hardener, you're already sucked dry by a NOS and no amount of hardening by your inactive modules is going to save you. In fact, the only module in the entire game that I can see this being useful for is an Invulnerability Field II, because it costs so much cap to run it and it would give a small boost to all your resists when inactive. maybe if ur so lame that u logged out earlier and ur ship is gonna vanish otherwise ur just plain and simple dead with no cap .....as u cant warp/shoot/rep ..
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:57:00 - [103] I am willing to bet the sig radius mod will be mid slot though. For some reason, the devs seems unable to do any changes without seriously nerfing caldari in the process. Are those things on the test server yet? Maybe someone with an test account can enlighten us?
Antic	Posted - 2005.10.06 16:10:00 - [104] Edited by: Antic on 06/10/2005 16:12:30 This change will make armor tanking more viable as people can now only need 4 damage mods in lows. But fights will be lasting longer. So Shield tanking will be gimped further due to it only being able to last seconds compared to armmor tanking wich lasts forever. Burst damage means less now compared to DPS. This Gimps Artys and Missiles in the long run and further gimps shield tanking. Overall its a needed change to make combat last longer and more tactical. Id just have hoped they would have made shield tanking viable in the new system. Right now it will be completely useless compared to the armor counterpart. Also shield tanking ships are mostly missile ships. Shield tanking setups takes not only tons of cap, but tons of CPU as well. Now add BCU II and their 40 CPU to this (other dam mods are just 30) and tech 2 launchers and you will see how difficult it will be to fit missile ships in the future. Impossible in some cases. Also consider that missiles yet again have much lower DPS than any other weapon system wich means they NEED BCUs to even have a chance. And thinking of fitting a shield extender on that? Not a chance! Signature lowering module? Final nail in coffin for non torpedo using ships. Good idea, if the signature part of missile formula is tweaked drasticaly.
Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.10.06 17:28:00 - [105] Originally by: NoNameNewbie okay where to start ... DMG Mod Stacking First look: ftw, less dmg yey Sencond look: well nice try but, its just a major nerf to Amarr/Gallente as Mimatar/Caldari can still run a full gank outfit and the other races cant :D So Mimatar will be the flavour of the next month after the patch as they still instapop every stuff in eve. Atm i'm using 4 dmg mods on my mim char and after that patch i would still run 4 dmg mods, because everyone will stick to full dmg outfit as its still possible/usefull (not on all races but who cares). Dont nerf stuff ! give ppl something to fit which is more usefull ! I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Amarr and Gallente ships will get a far greater advantage out of this change... especially Amarr. Any ship with more than 4 low slots will have extra low slots to spare for tanking and other useful items since having more than 4 damage mods will be useless. Caldari ships rarely even HAVE more than 4 low slots. So while Caldari ships will be dedicating all their slow slots to damage mods.... other ships (like the Armageddon, for example) will have 4 additional low slots to dedicate to tanking, etc. This doesn't even begin to bring up the fact that t2 BCUs are 40 CPU while ALL other damage mods are 30 CPU.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.10.06 17:59:00 - [106] *"3.) Extender and Plate changes mean that no one will fit an extender on anything smaller than a battleship. Also, extenders are still* impossible to fit and have less hitpoints than armor plates."** Extenders should have less hit points then plates. It would be unfair to give extenders as many hitpoints as plates as extenders boost HP regen and total hitpoints. While plates only boost hitpoints. I still plan to use extenders on smaller ships. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.06 18:00:00 - [107] Originally by: Pottsey *"3.) Extender and Plate changes mean that no one will fit an extender on anything smaller than a battleship. Also, extenders are still* impossible to fit and have less hitpoints than armor plates."** Extenders should have less hit points then plates. It would be unfair to give extenders as many hitpoints as plates as extenders boost HP regen and total hitpoints. While plates only boost hitpoints. I still plan to use extenders on smaller ships. when it still like with Targetpainters you will suddenly face lots of wrecking hits -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.10.06 18:24:00 - [108] ôwhen it still like with Targetpainters you will suddenly face lots of wrecking hits ö I am hoping the extra resistance's counters the extra damage from the sig increase. So I am still left with the extra hitpoints and extra HP regen. But if I am wrong perhaps the decrease Signature Radius module will act as a counter. Of course I might be completely wrong and change my mind after testing. Looking at active hardeners and passive is it really fair to give passive hardeners 42,625% resistance and active only 50%? ShouldnÆt active be boosted by say 5%? _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
NoNameNewbie	Posted - 2005.10.06 18:42:00 - [109] Edited by: NoNameNewbie on 06/10/2005 18:43:50 Originally by: Tovarishch Originally by: NoNameNewbie okay where to start ... DMG Mod Stacking blabla I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Amarr and Gallente ships will get a far greater advantage out of this change... especially Amarr. Any ship with more than 4 low slots will have extra low slots to spare for tanking and other useful items since having more than 4 damage mods will be useless. Caldari ships rarely even HAVE more than 4 low slots. So while Caldari ships will be dedicating all their slow slots to damage mods.... other ships (like the Armageddon, for example) will have 4 additional low slots to dedicate to tanking, etc. This doesn't even begin to bring up the fact that t2 BCUs are 40 CPU while ALL other damage mods are 30 CPU. [sarcasm] well so u got some slots free for a still absolutely useless tank thats like super \o/ [/sarcasm] Due to the fact that everyone will keep on fitting 4 dmg mods the dmg output is still far to high to even think of tanking anything. Its a nerf to Gallente/Amarr because Mimatar/Caldari dont loose any firepower due to the fact that before this change they mostly fitted the same number of dmg mods then after the change so Mim/Cal firepower stays the same while Gal/Amarr looses firepower, at least in fleetbattles where noone cares about DoT and everything is just about Burst Damage. And tbh if ur talking about caldari ships ... the raven and the other missile ships as still as useless in pvp as they were before the patch since their missiles still take time to reach their targets.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.10.06 18:58:00 - [110] We need 20km Nuetralizers! We need 20km Webbers! Target painters should have range! Ammo and lasers crystals should have sig rad effects! When a missle/ammo/laser hits a target the impact in itself should disrupt all other incoming missles/ammo/lasers. Thus the more a target is getting hit the less the damage would be. Orientation to the battle creates sig radius! If you are coming into battle you get a smaller sig while if you are running you have a larger sig rad. The more wcs you have the slower and lower your HP and larger sig rad. The shield/armor hardners reduce ROF on all weapons when active! You should be able to warp to any object within 250km of you. Ammo/missles/crystals reload should be instant! (Hybrids should active refire after loaded ammo on current target) Overview refreshed every 5 seconds!(Make the screen important again) -------------------------- Does it matter why, its when is more crucial!
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.06 19:16:00 - [111] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Maya Rkell ...Amarr ships with 1400mm's, anyone? dear lord in underpants! I just had a flashback! Yea, strange that. So anyway... ELECTR0FREAK, CCP's values are higher (remember a thread on this? yes?). You know this. MUCH higher. You're a tool for encouraging them, afaik. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.06 19:56:00 - [112] Originally by: Harisdrop We need 20km Nuetralizers! We need 20km Webbers! Target painters should have range! I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic or serious post. I'm going to assume the latter. Large neutralizers have a range of 25km, IIRC (large nos 21km), target painters have about 120km total range (optimal + falloff) with skills. For webs, faction webbers have greater range, though I'm not sure if any of them reach out to 20km. I know that there's a 15km faction web, though. -Wrayeth
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.06 20:39:00 - [113] The BS-fitting faction webs go to 35km and beyond. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
lythos miralbar	Posted - 2005.10.07 00:06:00 - [114] Oveur.. i have a question. What skills will apply to energised passive hardners? if none then they will be pointless, as a passive hardner will provide better resists for less fitting. but if you apply the passive skills to them then they will be better than active hardners..
Xtro 2	Posted - 2005.10.07 03:11:00 - [115] Welcome to the world where 1v1s are a waste of time and all end in deadlocks. __________________________________________ Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.07 03:19:00 - [116] "when it still like with Targetpainters you will suddenly face lots of wrecking hits " Word on the street is, 60% signature increase on the large shield extender. Puts target painters to shame, tbh... "it's not a moon; it's caldari battlecruiser with shield extender!"
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.10.07 06:51:00 - [117] passives will only had 43% in all if you have level 5 in 4 (8?) skills. so don't panic quite yet. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.07 08:31:00 - [118] I think it's quite obvious by now that the devs don't want caldari using shield extenders - or anyone, for that matter. -Wrayeth
Kythoma	Posted - 2005.10.07 09:12:00 - [119] i want to make a suggestion, to put some of these 'balancing' under one hat: one big problem is the sigradius in conjunction with the damage. what's about, this sig-rad had only influence of the time to lock a target. u can lock a big sig faster, than a small - right? when a target is locked, then only the speed of it should play a role in the damage dealing with. in this case, all weapons (missiles especially) will NOT loose most of their damage. this could be a thought-provoking impulse ...
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.10.07 09:37:00 - [120] Is there a reason why CCP always treats Caldari badly? Some sort of load balancing? Maybe CCP should simply remove all races exept amarr, that way we would all be pleased by every change CCP makes

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