Cloaks are not currently a problem.

Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.

They will not show on local.
They cannot be detected.
They cannot be countered
They can sit as long as they want with a constant threat to the other alliance's sovereignty with no way to even know if they are still there.

They will not show on local, per the request of the AFK-cloak-whiners.

They can still very easily be detected.

They are ridiculously easy to counter since they'll either be in very weak ships or they'll be in ships that auto-nerfs themselves and make them far easier to defeat.

GǪand no, they can't sit as long as they like without anyone knowing they're there.

Dumbs it down? Really? Look at wormhole space. More dangerous than null dreamt of being, yet hardly "dumbed down". It would simply require intel gathering to be an active endeavor when cloaked. You'd have to go around and see what's to be seen, watch what needs watching. It would be easier still than wormholes, yet more challenging.

Not everyone considers that a bad thing.

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DonGÇÖt mistake tedium for challenge. Sitting around all day with a scanner trying to find the perfect kill ala wh pvp is tedious not necessarily challenging.

But yep when you give people less information to use in their gaming analysis you dumb it down. I explained why in my earlier post. You didnGÇÖt really question that specific analysis so I wonGÇÖt repeat it.

There are good reasons why the amount of pvp in whs is anemic compared to low and null sec. You and I disagree about the impact of no local. But It is the reason I donGÇÖt pvp there. IGÇÖm sure IGÇÖm not alone.

If there was a local I would certainly jump in wormholes looking for some pvp GÇô especially if one happened to be in system I was in.

What about Covert-Ops? I can get behind this whole method for fixing cloaks, but maybe let Covert Ops Cloaking Devices stay in local? Would make sense considering their spying-purpose, but considering their low ISK-value they're already abused. Black-Ops definitely need some advantage, considering how overlooked they seem to be.

You mean per request of the afk cloakers

Really? I thought you wanted them to be completely undetectable and invisible.

To counter something, you'll have to know where and when it'll appear.

Why not?

No, I mean per the request of AFK-cloak-whiners. They're the ones who feel that people not doing anything is a problem, and disconnecting cloakers from local solves that problems completely.

That's because you don't like to read what I actually write and prefer to draw up immensely idiotic straw men.

No, you don't.

Disconnecting cloakers from local solves that "problem", yes, and creates a bigger one.

So what's wrong with having effort-based counters to cloakers, then?

Oh really? What's the alternative, have tons of people on guard duty 23.5/7?

So what's wrong with having effort-based counters to cloakers, then?

Why is the idea of running silent but teethless/vulnerable "breaking wormholes"? You'd use that during the intel gathering phase, or during the buildup of forces before a fight. You'd go out of that mode right before engaging. vOv

OK, you have no idea what you're talking about. This is now confirmed.

Take a cloaked Tengu, for example. What mods would have to be offlined in order for it to gather intel covertly with no choice of detection? How long would it take, in space, to online those mods? 10 minutes? 20?

You're being unrealistic.

Funny. Last videos I've seen of actual proper WH warfare (as opposed to just cheap ganks) involved carriers and bhaalgorns etc. No cloaky ships in the actual attack, I've no idea what they used to actually scan out the wormholes. Presumably some cloaky ship which isn't expected to run into any form of combat.

If they're hunting, chances are they'll be using probes, which can be seen on scans. If you're looking at 100+, the time for subtlety is over. If you're looking at hole control, all you're looking at is increasing the haul.

And for this, you're proposing something that'll **** over nullsec. That's balanced.

doesn't nerf null sec into being an even safer place than it already it.

Local in wormholes would suck. There'd be no adventure left if that were the case. Wormhole PvP would be ruined. OPs would be nearly impossible to plan and completely impossible to plan covertly, people would be scrambling to their pos the first sign of someone unknown showing up, carebears with no business being in wormholes would be in there and start complaining about "afk cloaking"... ugh. That would kill the game for me..

Are you really so disillusioned about wormhole PvP that you think it's "sitting around looking for the perfect kill"? Not that I've seen or heard, at least in our alliance. We have groups that sontaneously form up and begin to scan out holes to dive in and see if there are any targets of opportunity in there. If not, they scan the static(s) to that hole and keep on diving. It's a very active thing, hunting in the dark trying to see before you're seen. Kind of a wolf pack mentality, you know? Anyone sitting around waiting for PvP to come to them would likely become bored and consider it tedious... can agree with that.

Pity your suggestion nerfs it hard instead of even vaguely trying to maintain some semblance of balance.

Making it a little more challenging is the opposite of a nerf.

Making it better is the opposite of a nerf.

So let's see where this has gone. You got tired of the AFK cloak whine threads, so you made this thread where you basically killed living in nullsec. When someone tries to make it less of a suckfest to live with, it's a nerf to wormhole space and is suddenly not worth having. And when I try to make your suckfest of an idea worthwhile in both environments, I'm suddenly some sort of botter.

And now we're arguing the meaning of the word "nerf".

How many of these that like this idea of yours are carebears, and how many are ~elite roam PVP~ guys?

And how, exactly, do you propose to call your idea anything but a nerf to living in nullsec?