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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:19:00 -
[31]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 11/10/2005 17:19:17
Oh god Im gonna go around jita in my autotempest dropping t2 items at gates and waiting for people to pick them up.
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:19:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Waldo Barnstormer
Originally by: Kurren
If you're mining with somebody... and they take your ore... and you're ok with it........ DON'T SHOOT THEM! Sorry bout that... but sarcasm prevailed despite best efforts
thats great, i'll be sure to tell my drones not to attack anyone i consider a friend then shall i? :|
you DO have control of your drones, right?... coulda swore they put something for that somewhere in the UI... i dunno... maybe I'm wrong
************************************************
I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:20:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kurren
Originally by: SengH
Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P
You do that and CONCORD fires on the thief... you have to crimy flagged for the fight to be legal, and you have to be fired upon in order to fire back... and jammers or anything will be considered firing upon somebody.
You'll notice he said 'once they start firing jam away'.
I'd insult you for your illiteracy, but meh, can't be bothered...
________
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kurren
Originally by: SengH
Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P
You do that and CONCORD fires on the thief... you have to crimy flagged for the fight to be legal, and you have to be fired upon in order to fire back... and jammers or anything will be considered firing upon somebody.
Locking isnt considered a criminal offense. If you actually read what I wrote. The moment they fire the 1st shot, most likely your allowed to fire back (the way all other criminal flagging rules have worked). You just jam the crap outta them and warp off.
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:24:00 -
[35]
I read it... must've misinterpreted it... Christ!... /pulls sticks out of y'all's a$$e$
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:26:00 -
[36]
For he record:
I doubt many ore theives will be ganked. They've always thrived on helpless victims, NOT on a challenge.
They will, however, look for new ways to harass without "meaningful" risk to themselves. Sadly, I've no doubt they'll find a way.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:36:00 -
[37]
This is a bad idea, it really opens to the doors to a number of methods of greifing in high sec, while many vets will know to avoid these pitfalls newer players will genuinely for once be getting screwed over big time.
Some simple examples...
Somone in a battleship drops a can at a gate containing a basic miner or some ammo. New player flying along sees the can and pulls up to take a nosey.
New player gets flagged and popped by the battleship.
Somone is mining away happily in their barge or whatever, an ore thief in a battleship/HAC/whatever and shifts the ore into their own can.
Miner can either take the ore back and become flagged himself and get killed, shoot the ship and get killed. Either way he can do bugger all to stop it and this time, probably get himself killed along with it.
A supposdly charitable miner decides to turn up in a newb system with an apoc and declares in local that he will mine ore for the newbs to help them out (this does actually happen somtimes).
New players come along and take some ore from the can. The apoc gets some easy kills (don't think its so low that no one will do it, there really are people who would).
A player in an inty or hac cloaks in a belt in high sec system but leaves a can of some npc junk sitting around. New player warps in, sees the can but since no one is around assumes its left overs, helps himself. Inty or hac or whatever, decloaks and kills the player.
As you can see, these are only some of the easily exploitable situations that players can (and I would gurarratee WILL use) to greif other players, especially those that are new to the game and haven't grasped the concepts of crimainl flagging and so yet.
There are a number of possible options to reduce or prevent ore theft, some already exist in the game and simply require some effort on the players part or some basic co-operation and organisation.
Persoanlly I feel trying to use criminal flagging is a bad move and taking the wrong approach to trying to deal with ore theft as criminal flagging basically allows killing in high sec space (and when that happens a dedicated miner will loose nearly every time).
Options could be to have better secure cans that have half the cargo capactity of jet cans (trading cargo room for security). They don't require anchoring but decay over time so they can easily be deployed.
They would require a hacking skill from another player to scoop or open (and even then it's only a small % chance each attempt). The slow decay on the cans mean that the belts won't be littered with them for long.
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Melkisadek
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Posted - 2005.10.11 17:56:00 -
[38]
not really bothered by the mining side but all cans being tied to a particular player is plain daft
as a relatively new player i am currently doing reasonable business following enyos and the like into complexes and sweeping up the cargo cans they leave behind as they progress through the complex
as far as i'm aware the ore theft problem came about when players started using jet cans in a novel way - surely if there is now a major probelm with this the easiest and least inhibiting (to everyone else) solution is to prevent jet cans being used in this way
if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage
preventing me from making a few extra isk as a relative noob doing something that no-one seems to worry about is just overkill (in roid belts miners regularly allow me to scoop any cargo from rats they've blown as its of little use to them) - especially when the situation has developed not from a pirate 'hack' but from a mining one
i'm not sure how far towards completion this is but i would seriously reconsider it if i were CCP - possibly going along with something like the larger container with slow decay time idea
the miners created the problem so it should be they who 'suffer' to have the problem removed - and if 'suffering' means one or two extra trips per hour then so be it - there'll be short term inflation but the economy will be fine in the long run and the rest of the players in the game can carry on as before
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H0ot
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:00:00 -
[39]
I am under the impression a good 80% of people who play EVE never read patchnotes, or the news. Heck, some people have been playing for ages and post here when they are faced with daily downtime.
I think this change is going to backfire on people something rotten. It has so much exploit potential, on so many levels. To my wicked mind, criminal flagging for cans means I get to spend all day popping barges/mission runners and gathering the strip miners, the 27.44% expanders and Arbalest Launchers. Who needs to steal ore when people drop rare modules instead? 
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Siri Danae
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:01:00 -
[40]
Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK
...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves.
My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies.
------
I generally assume the following:
1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers.
2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears.
3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
Deka Kador
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:02:00 -
[41]
Regarding the possibility of griefing..........just flag cans you can't open legally and provide a pop-up window similar to the one you get when manually jumping into 0.4/0.0 or activating guns against a non-war target.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:04:00 -
[42]
you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well.
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:05:00 -
[43]
"Somone in a battleship drops a can at a gate containing a basic miner or some ammo. New player flying along sees the can and pulls up to take a nosey.
New player gets flagged and popped by the battleship."
Don't take what is not yours. The noob would have to ignore the pop-up warning that I'm sure would come up, telling him he will be criminally flagged and could be freely targeted to make this mistake. Criminal flagging is a key element in almost every MMO. I don't see why it will be so horribly confusing for the noobs in EVE, esp with warnings that pop up.
"Somone is mining away happily in their barge or whatever, an ore thief in a battleship/HAC/whatever and shifts the ore into their own can.
Miner can either take the ore back and become flagged himself and get killed, shoot the ship and get killed. Either way he can do bugger all to stop it and this time, probably get himself killed along with it."
This is probably the only valid point you brought up. Perhaps the game will recognize the ore as "a hot item belonging to X" for 30 seconds or so, so that the miner can move it back into his can and get a hauler to pick it up.
A supposdly charitable miner decides to turn up in a newb system with an apoc and declares in local that he will mine ore for the newbs to help them out (this does actually happen somtimes).
New players come along and take some ore from the can. The apoc gets some easy kills (don't think its so low that no one will do it, there really are people who would).
Again, the noobs would have to ignore the warning...and they could GANG with the apoc person so that they dont get flagged when taking ore. Simple really: Any join operation where multipul non corp members will be taking from the same can = gang first.
"A player in an inty or hac cloaks in a belt in high sec system but leaves a can of some npc junk sitting around. New player warps in, sees the can but since no one is around assumes its left overs, helps himself. Inty or hac or whatever, decloaks and kills the player."
A HAC or ceptor would have to wait many seconds after decloaking before being able to open fire. A smart person, even if he was a noob, would know to get out of there. In addition to the decloak lock delay , the noob would have to ignore the pop-up warning telling him taking from the container will make him a CRIMINAL and warning him that he can potentially be fired upon. Also, dont take stuff that does not belong to you if you want to be 100% safe. No diff than any other noob-friendly MMO.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
Deka Kador
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: SengH
you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well.
But at least they were warned the first time - after that, they've only got themselves to blame.
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Melkisadek
not really bothered by the mining side but all cans being tied to a particular player is plain daft
as a relatively new player i am currently doing reasonable business following enyos and the like into complexes and sweeping up the cargo cans they leave behind as they progress through the complex
as far as i'm aware the ore theft problem came about when players started using jet cans in a novel way - surely if there is now a major probelm with this the easiest and least inhibiting (to everyone else) solution is to prevent jet cans being used in this way
if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage
preventing me from making a few extra isk as a relative noob doing something that no-one seems to worry about is just overkill (in roid belts miners regularly allow me to scoop any cargo from rats they've blown as its of little use to them) - especially when the situation has developed not from a pirate 'hack' but from a mining one
i'm not sure how far towards completion this is but i would seriously reconsider it if i were CCP - possibly going along with something like the larger container with slow decay time idea
the miners created the problem so it should be they who 'suffer' to have the problem removed - and if 'suffering' means one or two extra trips per hour then so be it - there'll be short term inflation but the economy will be fine in the long run and the rest of the players in the game can carry on as before
Technology has changed. Larger containers are needed for efficient mining. Give the players whaqt they want. I bet you that ore theives are just as happy about these awesome changes as miners are. Introducing a flagging system like this (similar to Ultima Online's actually) creates a lot of fun for both miner and theif, and requires theives to actually not be 2 day old alts...(if they are going to be successfull...unless the miner they steal from sucks) Overall the changes make the game better and are not just put in place "to nerf ore theives"
The GoldenRatio > All. |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:09:00 -
[46]
2 day old alts will be used as proxys or can filters lol.
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: H0ot
I am under the impression a good 80% of people who play EVE never read patchnotes, or the news. Heck, some people have been playing for ages and post here when they are faced with daily downtime.
I think this change is going to backfire on people something rotten. It has so much exploit potential, on so many levels. To my wicked mind, criminal flagging for cans means I get to spend all day popping barges/mission runners and gathering the strip miners, the 27.44% expanders and Arbalest Launchers. Who needs to steal ore when people drop rare modules instead?
With pop up warnings it will be hard to miss the changes. Also, as I said before, most MMOs have nearly identical systems. Never caused a problem there.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: SengH
you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well.
Obviously if you are mining in a gang the warning box wont pop-up. Only if you try to pick up someones loot who is not in your gang, which is something people will just NOT DO ANYMORE unless they are PURPOSFULLY TRYING TO STEAL will the warning message come up. Pretty simple really.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:12:00 -
[49]
The problem is the the flag is a combat orientated solution for a non combat player and it basically opens the doors for combat orientated players to get easy skills.
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SengH
2 day old alts will be used as proxys or can filters lol.
And what can they do under the new system that they cant do now? Right now an ore theif can use a covert ops ship to insta warp directly to a miners can and grab the ore, then trash talk and leave at his own leasure. As before, if a miner wants to be 100% safe just use giant secure cans to mine directly into a hauler etc. With the new system miners will still have the option to be 100% safe, or be mostly safe and use jet cans. Now the difference is miners have the OPTION to do something about a theif, and theives have the option to use cunning plans to try and surprise the miner...but if the miner wont take the bait nothing can come of it.
A fair and balanced system.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:15:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Wild Rho
The problem is the the flag is a combat orientated solution for a non combat player and it basically opens the doors for combat orientated players to get easy skills.
Only if the non combat player decides to use combat to solve his problems. This also lets miners ACT like noobs and then suddenly whip out something that screws the ore theif over. But again, if a miner wants to be 100% safe he can mine into a giant secure container. nothing has changed except now miners have more options. They cna play it safe and if they fouled up and let an ore theif get their stuff, they can cut their losses and learn from it. Or they can try to take it back by force. But it is up to the MINER of a fight breaks out or not.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:17:00 -
[52]
theres nothing cunning about fitting 4x(you can fit 5 if you take off an ab) racial jammers on an indy and then locking them up before taking their ore. Even if their mining in a BS they cant do anything about it. The chances of 5x racial jammers failing when your well under optimal is close to 0.
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:17:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Siri Danae
Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK
...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves.
My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies.
This is not an ore theif nerf. This is a general game improvement which benefits miners if they play their cards right and benefits ore theives if they play their cards right.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
H0ot
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:18:00 -
[54]
Originally by: The GoldenRatio
With pop up warnings it will be hard to miss the changes. Also, as I said before, most MMOs have nearly identical systems. Never caused a problem there.
I see people making an assumption that there won't be any sort of checkbox in place for this. Lets just say the average level of intelligence seems to be lower in Highway systems like Jita than elsewhere. (I'm not giving out what i've got planned, as others might copy it obviously  )
And as others have pointed out, there really was never any need for this change. I think a wiseman once said "You can patch and nerf everything but stupidity"
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The GoldenRatio
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:19:00 -
[55]
Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:54
Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:00
Originally by: SengH
Edited by: SengH on 11/10/2005 18:17:06
theres nothing cunning about fitting 4x(you can fit 5 if you take off an ab) racial jammers on an indy and then locking them up before taking their ore. Even if their mining(fake mining) in a BS they cant do anything about it. The chances of 5x racial jammers failing when your well under optimal is close to 0.
What if they jam you first? They get first shot you know. At least skills and mods are required now. I'm sure a smart miner can think of something. And again, it is the MINERS CHOICE to fire at the theif. If the miner choses not to shoot after he is robbed, its no worse than the current system where people freely take ore with no need of planning what to do in case they get attacked. Nothing has been lost.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
Siri Danae
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:24:00 -
[56]
Originally by: The GoldenRatio
Originally by: Siri Danae
Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK
...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves.
My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies.
This is not an ore theif nerf. This is a general game improvement which benefits miners if they play their cards right and benefits ore theives if they play their cards right.
General game change? Maybe. Improvement? I don't think so.
------
I generally assume the following:
1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers.
2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears.
3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:25:00 -
[57]
All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit.
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Melkisadek
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:32:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Melkisadek on 11/10/2005 18:32:48
goldenratio - the problem as i see it is that you are coming at this solely from the point of view of a miner and you seem to care very little about other players
sweeping up cargo cans left by players who have no interest in them should NOT be a criminal act
picking up cargo left by miners in a roid belt (from rats) after they've left should NOT be a criminal act
and taking ore from a non-secured container should NOT be a criminal act - just a slightly morally dubious one
there are ways around this from the mining side and those options should be exhausted before criminal flagging is brought into the game for jet cans
or does it suddenly become fair game for me to go into a complex and jettison a can with ammo in it and rename it as a complex ammunition container? - you can go on about pop-ups all you want but most reasonably experienced players will have that little 'don't show again' checkbox ticked before you can say "jet can" - should they then be at the mercy of someone because they actually do something in the game other than mine??
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Maric Abair
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Posted - 2005.10.11 18:55:00 -
[59]
Well, maybe CCP can implement a new subset of jet-can that can be independently turned off in the overview. Now, I can see only the cans legal for me to loot, while ignoring all others. Just like jet-cans and sec-cans are now.
More, I could then change the background colour and/or icon to indicate whats mine and whats yours, no more problem.
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Rufus Roughneck
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Posted - 2005.10.11 19:06:00 -
[60]
after this change (unless the flag last less then say 2 minutes or CCP comes up with something else to prevent it), ore thefth is going to start on a second coming allright.
You have no idea. How many losers do you think will think of the incredibly simply tactic of "park ganka bs at deepsafe safespot in jita"+"get in fastlock amarr racial ecm badger"+"get some ampoc driver to fire on you"= free bs kill in 1.0 ?
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