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Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK

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Hamsterrama	Posted - 2005.10.11 14:44:00 - [1] About time they do this. Criminally flag em you can bet that I'll be carrying some a rather nasty ammount of drones and webber/ warp scrambler when this comes into effect 8)
Gwenvahar	Posted - 2005.10.11 14:48:00 - [2] Odds are, those who would be a thief after the fix will have nothing for you, because they will all be newb's who are unaware of the danger. In low sec space, nothing will change much.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:08:00 - [3] Other than the fact that you can shoot them... Killing those who've stolen from you brings on twice as much joy as the loot itself! ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:10:00 - [4] any news on _when_ this will be in effect? -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
M3ta7h3ad	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:18:00 - [5] I wonder how this will work with mining ops. Personally I think It'll result in a lot of newbies dying straight away. They'll shoot at the badger II coming alongside them, then get the full brunt of 2 small smart bombs going off on their little mining frigate at about 50mtr range.
Avon	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:19:00 - [6] Originally by: M3ta7h3ad I wonder how this will work with mining ops. Personally I think It'll result in a lot of newbies dying straight away. They'll shoot at the badger II coming alongside them, then get the full brunt of 2 small smart bombs going off on their little mining frigate at about 50mtr range. Nah, with a BmII you are going to jam them and scramble them until they log off. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:32:00 - [7] Originally by: M3ta7h3ad I wonder how this will work with mining ops. Personally I think It'll result in a lot of newbies dying straight away. They'll shoot at the badger II coming alongside them, then get the full brunt of 2 small smart bombs going off on their little mining frigate at about 50mtr range. It may, but you gotta learn somehow that you don't use smart bombs for any type of combat in safe space cause it has a possibility of hitting someone doing nothing and getting everything f.k.d... for the seasoned players though, it'll be a great thing... exacting revenge on thieves... BRILLIANT! And I coulda swore it was gonna happen in November... ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:38:00 - [8] thats been on the "in testing" for a few months IIRC. i wonder how long it will stay? i dnt think its ever been rolled out across SiSi. besides, who ore thieves on Sisi? -- This Zig. For great justice!
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:39:00 - [9] It'll just result in people teaming up to do ore theiving.... get a blasterthron to create his own can and shift the ore into there and his buddy to take out of it... Situation 1: Person gets angry shoots the blasterthron .. gets popped Situation 2: Person gets angry takes out of the blasterthrons can .. gets popped Were back to square 1 again :P this time with the miner getting ganked :P
Jemba'k Ko'cha	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:40:00 - [10] its a good move from ccp. they arnt stopping the theives from theiving, which is good. but they ARE allowing people to defend what is their property, which is how it should be.
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:40:00 - [11] I bet its the miners who are going to get "the gank" .. ^^
CelticKnight	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:54:00 - [12] ah ha! if people are goig to use 2 accts, well they cant BOTH be alts can they? :) it will let us SEE who the real person is... perfect for the ganking :) Originally by: Oveur I can make 100 Trillion ISK with a single click.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:55:00 - [13] Nah, this is a good change. Stops alts from ore thieving, leaving the people dedicated to ore thievery doing it just as easily (with the possibility that they'll be able to gank a stupid miner!). ________
Waldo Barnstormer	Posted - 2005.10.11 15:55:00 - [14] what im wondering about this though is: 1) will everyone be able to shoot the thieves, or just the miner? 2) assuming that its just the miner who can attack, can someone who is ganged with the miner attack? the miners corp? - a subnote to this if someone who is ganged with you is allowed to attack the thief, can you gang with them after the fact? This could lead to a new species of player who gangs with random miners upon request in order to blow up ore thieves. 3) how long does this criminal flag last? 4) Is the criminal tag optional? Some people mine together etc without being in the same corp 5) what if I find a dead persons can, and they're nor around, can i loot it, or will i then be a criminal who's gonna get my ass handed to me?
Severe McCald	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:02:00 - [15] What will happen with group mining ops in which (for whatever reason) the hauler and can owner are not ganged? Will the hauler be criminal flagged? Sev We are what we repeatedly do - Aristotle. That has got to be a worry.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:07:00 - [16] "It'll just result in people teaming up to do ore theiving.... get a blasterthron to create his own can and shift the ore into there and his buddy to take out of it... Situation 1: Person gets angry shoots the blasterthron .. gets popped" If i understand it right, the aggression system is designed in way that's supposed to not allow exactly that: blasterthron guy pulls ore from someone's can -- they're flagged as fair game. The owner of can can shoot them without becoming 'fair game' to attack from the original thief. This means if the blasterthron guy pulls stuff from the can, gets flagged, gets shot and tries to shoot back -- CONCORD considers them to basically 'attack an innocent', warps in and does its usual thing.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Waldo Barnstormer what im wondering about this though is: 1) will everyone be able to shoot the thieves, or just the miner? 2) assuming that its just the miner who can attack, can someone who is ganged with the miner attack? the miners corp? - a subnote to this if someone who is ganged with you is allowed to attack the thief, can you gang with them after the fact? This could lead to a new species of player who gangs with random miners upon request in order to blow up ore thieves. 3) how long does this criminal flag last? 4) Is the criminal tag optional? Some people mine together etc without being in the same corp 5) what if I find a dead persons can, and they're nor around, can i loot it, or will i then be a criminal who's gonna get my ass handed to me? If you're mining with somebody... and they take your ore... and you're ok with it........ DON'T SHOOT THEM! Sorry bout that... but sarcasm prevailed despite best efforts Personally if somebody dies, or isn't there, I think the loot is fair game. If they wanted it, they can always look for the red flashing in their overview. And I think they said the tag would last 24 hours. Ample time to check a few systems for StickFingers McGee And and... mercs will have something to do between wars, hired protection.... float by the can making sure it's in optimal range.. and just f.k.d anybody that decides to step on your toes. After this I'll shut up... as per number 4... maybe a window could pop up saying "Such-n-such is attepting to take your goodies... he's not in your group... is he your friend? (Yes) (No)" Depending on whatever you click... he either does or doesn't get crimy flagged. Either way he can still attempt stealing your goodies. ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Waldo Barnstormer what im wondering about this though is: 1) will everyone be able to shoot the thieves, or just the miner? 2) assuming that its just the miner who can attack, can someone who is ganged with the miner attack? the miners corp? - a subnote to this if someone who is ganged with you is allowed to attack the thief, can you gang with them after the fact? This could lead to a new species of player who gangs with random miners upon request in order to blow up ore thieves. 3) how long does this criminal flag last? 4) Is the criminal tag optional? Some people mine together etc without being in the same corp 5) what if I find a dead persons can, and they're nor around, can i loot it, or will i then be a criminal who's gonna get my ass handed to me? Criminal flag pilots that take from jettisoned cans which don't belong to them This is needed to allow the owner of the can to shoot the one taking from his own jettisoned can and to allow the owner to shoot anyone taking from the loot cans which drop from the NPC's the owner destroyed. This does NOT include a CONCORD response, only enables the owner to shoot without getting CONCORDOKENED himself. Could be applied to agent missions too, registering jettisoned containers to the mission owner. Just the miner can shoot. I presume it will work like -5 sec status flagging, in which you can shoot at the flagged person but when you do, they can shoot back. ________
Hamsterrama	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:19:00 - [19] Mayeb they will have a security setting for gangs so that you can set loot rules to gang mebers so they don't get a negative flag
Abvrasious	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:23:00 - [20] I would assume that CCP will make it so that people in your gang aren't flagged. That would stop the problem of haulers getting tagged. Even if you mine with people outside your Corp, you can still gang with them, so that would work. ------------- Awaiting Destiny
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:25:00 - [21] I forsee a lot of mining barges getting popped in empire space. I can smell it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE
Ikvar	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Hamsterrama About time they do this. Criminally flag em you can bet that I'll be carrying some a rather nasty ammount of drones and webber/ warp scrambler when this comes into effect 8) Omg, you're going to kill people with your mining barge? I'm sure they're positively quivering in their little ore theif boots
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:30:00 - [23] Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P
Kin Hanyerec	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:33:00 - [24] what if someone start dropping cans near a mining barge until this one cannot move, and wait it to pick one of the cans to wtfpwn it ?
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:35:00 - [25] foremostly when this goes live... I think it'll be known as the day the macrominers died :P
Waldo Barnstormer	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Kurren If you're mining with somebody... and they take your ore... and you're ok with it........ DON'T SHOOT THEM! Sorry bout that... but sarcasm prevailed despite best efforts thats great, i'll be sure to tell my drones not to attack anyone i consider a friend then shall i? :\|
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:41:00 - [27] Trick 3 is to set up one account in your happy FLAC Tempest, and your other account in your grumpy barge, and have the Tempest be the owner of the can. Warp it out to a safe spot, and line it up for warping back in a hurry, and you've got the perfect "Oh 7448!" surprise. Almost makes me want to go mining again. Harry Voyager
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:42:00 - [28] Edited by: Burnhard Brutor on 11/10/2005 16:44:12 Originally by: Kin Hanyerec what if someone start dropping cans near a mining barge until this one cannot move, and wait it to pick one of the cans to wtfpwn it ? Typical of the kind of mentality that gets piracy nerfed. When a new game mechanic arrives, think of a way of exploiting/causing as much grief to someone else as possible. 3 months later, it gets hit with the nerf bat and all the pirate carebears are up in arms. IF YOU PUT YOUR WILLY INTO A FOOD MIXER, IT'S GOING TO HURT. There is so much cool stuff that CCP could implement that will never see the light of day because of attitudes like this.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 16:50:00 - [29] still but whats preventing people from using alts to launder and clean the ore so they can steal it just fine.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:15:00 - [30] Originally by: SengH Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P You do that and CONCORD fires on the thief... you have to crimy flagged for the fight to be legal, and you have to be fired upon in order to fire back... and jammers or anything will be considered firing upon somebody. ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:19:00 - [31] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 11/10/2005 17:19:17 Oh god Im gonna go around jita in my autotempest dropping t2 items at gates and waiting for people to pick them up.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Waldo Barnstormer Originally by: Kurren If you're mining with somebody... and they take your ore... and you're ok with it........ DON'T SHOOT THEM! Sorry bout that... but sarcasm prevailed despite best efforts thats great, i'll be sure to tell my drones not to attack anyone i consider a friend then shall i? :\| you DO have control of your drones, right?... coulda swore they put something for that somewhere in the UI... i dunno... maybe I'm wrong ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:20:00 - [33] Originally by: Kurren Originally by: SengH Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P You do that and CONCORD fires on the thief... you have to crimy flagged for the fight to be legal, and you have to be fired upon in order to fire back... and jammers or anything will be considered firing upon somebody. You'll notice he said 'once they start firing jam away'. I'd insult you for your illiteracy, but meh, can't be bothered... ________
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Kurren Originally by: SengH Alternatively you could just use the mammoth and fit 4 racial jammers of the race that the can belongs to. Lock them up before you take from their can and once they start firing jam away. :P You do that and CONCORD fires on the thief... you have to crimy flagged for the fight to be legal, and you have to be fired upon in order to fire back... and jammers or anything will be considered firing upon somebody. Locking isnt considered a criminal offense. If you actually read what I wrote. The moment they fire the 1st shot, most likely your allowed to fire back (the way all other criminal flagging rules have worked). You just jam the crap outta them and warp off.
Kurren	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:24:00 - [35] I read it... must've misinterpreted it... Christ!... /pulls sticks out of y'all's a$$e$ ************************************************ I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist...
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:26:00 - [36] For he record: I doubt many ore theives will be ganked. They've always thrived on helpless victims, NOT on a challenge. They will, however, look for new ways to harass without "meaningful" risk to themselves. Sadly, I've no doubt they'll find a way.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:36:00 - [37] This is a bad idea, it really opens to the doors to a number of methods of greifing in high sec, while many vets will know to avoid these pitfalls newer players will genuinely for once be getting screwed over big time. Some simple examples... Somone in a battleship drops a can at a gate containing a basic miner or some ammo. New player flying along sees the can and pulls up to take a nosey. New player gets flagged and popped by the battleship. Somone is mining away happily in their barge or whatever, an ore thief in a battleship/HAC/whatever and shifts the ore into their own can. Miner can either take the ore back and become flagged himself and get killed, shoot the ship and get killed. Either way he can do bugger all to stop it and this time, probably get himself killed along with it. A supposdly charitable miner decides to turn up in a newb system with an apoc and declares in local that he will mine ore for the newbs to help them out (this does actually happen somtimes). New players come along and take some ore from the can. The apoc gets some easy kills (don't think its so low that no one will do it, there really are people who would). A player in an inty or hac cloaks in a belt in high sec system but leaves a can of some npc junk sitting around. New player warps in, sees the can but since no one is around assumes its left overs, helps himself. Inty or hac or whatever, decloaks and kills the player. As you can see, these are only some of the easily exploitable situations that players can (and I would gurarratee WILL use) to greif other players, especially those that are new to the game and haven't grasped the concepts of crimainl flagging and so yet. There are a number of possible options to reduce or prevent ore theft, some already exist in the game and simply require some effort on the players part or some basic co-operation and organisation. Persoanlly I feel trying to use criminal flagging is a bad move and taking the wrong approach to trying to deal with ore theft as criminal flagging basically allows killing in high sec space (and when that happens a dedicated miner will loose nearly every time). Options could be to have better secure cans that have half the cargo capactity of jet cans (trading cargo room for security). They don't require anchoring but decay over time so they can easily be deployed. They would require a hacking skill from another player to scoop or open (and even then it's only a small % chance each attempt). The slow decay on the cans mean that the belts won't be littered with them for long.
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.11 17:56:00 - [38] not really bothered by the mining side but all cans being tied to a particular player is plain daft as a relatively new player i am currently doing reasonable business following enyos and the like into complexes and sweeping up the cargo cans they leave behind as they progress through the complex as far as i'm aware the ore theft problem came about when players started using jet cans in a novel way - surely if there is now a major probelm with this the easiest and least inhibiting (to everyone else) solution is to prevent jet cans being used in this way if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage preventing me from making a few extra isk as a relative noob doing something that no-one seems to worry about is just overkill (in roid belts miners regularly allow me to scoop any cargo from rats they've blown as its of little use to them) - especially when the situation has developed not from a pirate 'hack' but from a mining one i'm not sure how far towards completion this is but i would seriously reconsider it if i were CCP - possibly going along with something like the larger container with slow decay time idea the miners created the problem so it should be they who 'suffer' to have the problem removed - and if 'suffering' means one or two extra trips per hour then so be it - there'll be short term inflation but the economy will be fine in the long run and the rest of the players in the game can carry on as before
H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:00:00 - [39] I am under the impression a good 80% of people who play EVE never read patchnotes, or the news. Heck, some people have been playing for ages and post here when they are faced with daily downtime. I think this change is going to backfire on people something rotten. It has so much exploit potential, on so many levels. To my wicked mind, criminal flagging for cans means I get to spend all day popping barges/mission runners and gathering the strip miners, the 27.44% expanders and Arbalest Launchers. Who needs to steal ore when people drop rare modules instead?
Siri Danae	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:01:00 - [40] Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK ...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves. My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies. ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners.
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:02:00 - [41] Regarding the possibility of griefing..........just flag cans you can't open legally and provide a pop-up window similar to the one you get when manually jumping into 0.4/0.0 or activating guns against a non-war target.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:04:00 - [42] you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:05:00 - [43] "Somone in a battleship drops a can at a gate containing a basic miner or some ammo. New player flying along sees the can and pulls up to take a nosey. New player gets flagged and popped by the battleship." Don't take what is not yours. The noob would have to ignore the pop-up warning that I'm sure would come up, telling him he will be criminally flagged and could be freely targeted to make this mistake. Criminal flagging is a key element in almost every MMO. I don't see why it will be so horribly confusing for the noobs in EVE, esp with warnings that pop up. "Somone is mining away happily in their barge or whatever, an ore thief in a battleship/HAC/whatever and shifts the ore into their own can. Miner can either take the ore back and become flagged himself and get killed, shoot the ship and get killed. Either way he can do bugger all to stop it and this time, probably get himself killed along with it." This is probably the only valid point you brought up. Perhaps the game will recognize the ore as "a hot item belonging to X" for 30 seconds or so, so that the miner can move it back into his can and get a hauler to pick it up. A supposdly charitable miner decides to turn up in a newb system with an apoc and declares in local that he will mine ore for the newbs to help them out (this does actually happen somtimes). New players come along and take some ore from the can. The apoc gets some easy kills (don't think its so low that no one will do it, there really are people who would). Again, the noobs would have to ignore the warning...and they could GANG with the apoc person so that they dont get flagged when taking ore. Simple really: Any join operation where multipul non corp members will be taking from the same can = gang first. "A player in an inty or hac cloaks in a belt in high sec system but leaves a can of some npc junk sitting around. New player warps in, sees the can but since no one is around assumes its left overs, helps himself. Inty or hac or whatever, decloaks and kills the player." A HAC or ceptor would have to wait many seconds after decloaking before being able to open fire. A smart person, even if he was a noob, would know to get out of there. In addition to the decloak lock delay , the noob would have to ignore the pop-up warning telling him taking from the container will make him a CRIMINAL and warning him that he can potentially be fired upon. Also, dont take stuff that does not belong to you if you want to be 100% safe. No diff than any other noob-friendly MMO. The GoldenRatio > All.
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:06:00 - [44] Originally by: SengH you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well. But at least they were warned the first time - after that, they've only got themselves to blame.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:08:00 - [45] Originally by: Melkisadek not really bothered by the mining side but all cans being tied to a particular player is plain daft as a relatively new player i am currently doing reasonable business following enyos and the like into complexes and sweeping up the cargo cans they leave behind as they progress through the complex as far as i'm aware the ore theft problem came about when players started using jet cans in a novel way - surely if there is now a major probelm with this the easiest and least inhibiting (to everyone else) solution is to prevent jet cans being used in this way if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage preventing me from making a few extra isk as a relative noob doing something that no-one seems to worry about is just overkill (in roid belts miners regularly allow me to scoop any cargo from rats they've blown as its of little use to them) - especially when the situation has developed not from a pirate 'hack' but from a mining one i'm not sure how far towards completion this is but i would seriously reconsider it if i were CCP - possibly going along with something like the larger container with slow decay time idea the miners created the problem so it should be they who 'suffer' to have the problem removed - and if 'suffering' means one or two extra trips per hour then so be it - there'll be short term inflation but the economy will be fine in the long run and the rest of the players in the game can carry on as before Technology has changed. Larger containers are needed for efficient mining. Give the players whaqt they want. I bet you that ore theives are just as happy about these awesome changes as miners are. Introducing a flagging system like this (similar to Ultima Online's actually) creates a lot of fun for both miner and theif, and requires theives to actually not be 2 day old alts...(if they are going to be successfull...unless the miner they steal from sucks) Overall the changes make the game better and are not just put in place "to nerf ore theives" The GoldenRatio > All.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:09:00 - [46] 2 day old alts will be used as proxys or can filters lol.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:09:00 - [47] Originally by: H0ot I am under the impression a good 80% of people who play EVE never read patchnotes, or the news. Heck, some people have been playing for ages and post here when they are faced with daily downtime. I think this change is going to backfire on people something rotten. It has so much exploit potential, on so many levels. To my wicked mind, criminal flagging for cans means I get to spend all day popping barges/mission runners and gathering the strip miners, the 27.44% expanders and Arbalest Launchers. Who needs to steal ore when people drop rare modules instead? With pop up warnings it will be hard to miss the changes. Also, as I said before, most MMOs have nearly identical systems. Never caused a problem there. The GoldenRatio > All.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:10:00 - [48] Originally by: SengH you do know most likely there will be a checkbox to turn it off. Too many people will do that when they mine as a gang/ pick up loot for people as its just a pure hassle. Then they go off and get ganked. Either way I cant see this ending well. Obviously if you are mining in a gang the warning box wont pop-up. Only if you try to pick up someones loot who is not in your gang, which is something people will just NOT DO ANYMORE unless they are PURPOSFULLY TRYING TO STEAL will the warning message come up. Pretty simple really. The GoldenRatio > All.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:12:00 - [49] The problem is the the flag is a combat orientated solution for a non combat player and it basically opens the doors for combat orientated players to get easy skills.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:13:00 - [50] Originally by: SengH 2 day old alts will be used as proxys or can filters lol. And what can they do under the new system that they cant do now? Right now an ore theif can use a covert ops ship to insta warp directly to a miners can and grab the ore, then trash talk and leave at his own leasure. As before, if a miner wants to be 100% safe just use giant secure cans to mine directly into a hauler etc. With the new system miners will still have the option to be 100% safe, or be mostly safe and use jet cans. Now the difference is miners have the OPTION to do something about a theif, and theives have the option to use cunning plans to try and surprise the miner...but if the miner wont take the bait nothing can come of it. A fair and balanced system. The GoldenRatio > All.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Wild Rho The problem is the the flag is a combat orientated solution for a non combat player and it basically opens the doors for combat orientated players to get easy skills. Only if the non combat player decides to use combat to solve his problems. This also lets miners ACT like noobs and then suddenly whip out something that screws the ore theif over. But again, if a miner wants to be 100% safe he can mine into a giant secure container. nothing has changed except now miners have more options. They cna play it safe and if they fouled up and let an ore theif get their stuff, they can cut their losses and learn from it. Or they can try to take it back by force. But it is up to the MINER of a fight breaks out or not. The GoldenRatio > All.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:17:00 - [52] theres nothing cunning about fitting 4x(you can fit 5 if you take off an ab) racial jammers on an indy and then locking them up before taking their ore. Even if their mining in a BS they cant do anything about it. The chances of 5x racial jammers failing when your well under optimal is close to 0.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Siri Danae Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK ...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves. My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies. This is not an ore theif nerf. This is a general game improvement which benefits miners if they play their cards right and benefits ore theives if they play their cards right. The GoldenRatio > All.
H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:18:00 - [54] Originally by: The GoldenRatio With pop up warnings it will be hard to miss the changes. Also, as I said before, most MMOs have nearly identical systems. Never caused a problem there. I see people making an assumption that there won't be any sort of checkbox in place for this. Lets just say the average level of intelligence seems to be lower in Highway systems like Jita than elsewhere. (I'm not giving out what i've got planned, as others might copy it obviously ) And as others have pointed out, there really was never any need for this change. I think a wiseman once said "You can patch and nerf everything but stupidity"
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:19:00 - [55] Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:54 Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:00 Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 11/10/2005 18:17:06 theres nothing cunning about fitting 4x(you can fit 5 if you take off an ab) racial jammers on an indy and then locking them up before taking their ore. Even if their mining(fake mining) in a BS they cant do anything about it. The chances of 5x racial jammers failing when your well under optimal is close to 0. What if they jam you first? They get first shot you know. At least skills and mods are required now. I'm sure a smart miner can think of something. And again, it is the MINERS CHOICE to fire at the theif. If the miner choses not to shoot after he is robbed, its no worse than the current system where people freely take ore with no need of planning what to do in case they get attacked. Nothing has been lost. The GoldenRatio > All.
Siri Danae	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:24:00 - [56] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Originally by: Siri Danae Ore thiefs finally going to get the GANK ...because players were too incompetent to deal with ore theft themselves. My ore cans were never stolen. And it wasn't hard to accomplish, kiddies. This is not an ore theif nerf. This is a general game improvement which benefits miners if they play their cards right and benefits ore theives if they play their cards right. General game change? Maybe. Improvement? I don't think so. ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:25:00 - [57] All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit.
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:32:00 - [58] Edited by: Melkisadek on 11/10/2005 18:32:48 goldenratio - the problem as i see it is that you are coming at this solely from the point of view of a miner and you seem to care very little about other players sweeping up cargo cans left by players who have no interest in them should NOT be a criminal act picking up cargo left by miners in a roid belt (from rats) after they've left should NOT be a criminal act and taking ore from a non-secured container should NOT be a criminal act - just a slightly morally dubious one there are ways around this from the mining side and those options should be exhausted before criminal flagging is brought into the game for jet cans or does it suddenly become fair game for me to go into a complex and jettison a can with ammo in it and rename it as a complex ammunition container? - you can go on about pop-ups all you want but most reasonably experienced players will have that little 'don't show again' checkbox ticked before you can say "jet can" - should they then be at the mercy of someone because they actually do something in the game other than mine??
Maric Abair	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:55:00 - [59] Well, maybe CCP can implement a new subset of jet-can that can be independently turned off in the overview. Now, I can see only the cans legal for me to loot, while ignoring all others. Just like jet-cans and sec-cans are now. More, I could then change the background colour and/or icon to indicate whats mine and whats yours, no more problem.
Rufus Roughneck	Posted - 2005.10.11 19:06:00 - [60] after this change (unless the flag last less then say 2 minutes or CCP comes up with something else to prevent it), ore thefth is going to start on a second coming allright. You have no idea. How many losers do you think will think of the incredibly simply tactic of "park ganka bs at deepsafe safespot in jita"+"get in fastlock amarr racial ecm badger"+"get some ampoc driver to fire on you"= free bs kill in 1.0 ?
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.11 19:18:00 - [61] Originally by: Melkisadek Edited by: Melkisadek on 11/10/2005 18:32:48 sweeping up cargo cans left by players who have no interest in them should NOT be a criminal act picking up cargo left by miners in a roid belt (from rats) after they've left should NOT be a criminal act After 20 minutes if untouched, jet/loot cans of all types should lose their ownership. There. The GoldenRatio > All.
Thomus	Posted - 2005.10.11 22:32:00 - [62] and what happens if ur mining with someone thats not in ur corp or gang? sorry, this has probbly been sed hehe ---------------- Tom www.tomnetf2s.f2s.com/carmileage.AVI
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.11 22:54:00 - [63] Originally by: The GoldenRatio After 20 minutes if untouched, jet/loot cans of all types should lose their ownership. There. and how do you suggest CCP change the complex rules to allow me to follow a ship through a complex acceleration gate after 20 mins??? think about it from a non-mining point of view - at the moment the only problem is that MINERS are using jet cans to store ore - the thieving comes from that and nothing else the simple answer is to ban jet can mining - but this would annoy the MINERS who are causing the problem in the first place... basically if you can't secure your containers then you need to up hte price of the goods you sell when it costs you more to buy pre-secured containers - simple economics there should be no in game changes other than the introduction of better secure containers to solve the ore thief problem - the solution is already available
Soulita	Posted - 2005.10.12 00:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Wild Rho This is a bad idea, it really opens to the doors to a number of methods of greifing in high sec, while many vets will know to avoid these pitfalls newer players will genuinely for once be getting screwed over big time. Some simple examples... Somone in a battleship drops a can at a gate containing a basic miner or some ammo. New player flying along sees the can and pulls up to take a nosey. New player gets flagged and popped by the battleship. Somone is mining away happily in their barge or whatever, an ore thief in a battleship/HAC/whatever and shifts the ore into their own can. Miner can either take the ore back and become flagged himself and get killed, shoot the ship and get killed. Either way he can do bugger all to stop it and this time, probably get himself killed along with it. A supposdly charitable miner decides to turn up in a newb system with an apoc and declares in local that he will mine ore for the newbs to help them out (this does actually happen somtimes). New players come along and take some ore from the can. The apoc gets some easy kills (don't think its so low that no one will do it, there really are people who would). A player in an inty or hac cloaks in a belt in high sec system but leaves a can of some npc junk sitting around. New player warps in, sees the can but since no one is around assumes its left overs, helps himself. Inty or hac or whatever, decloaks and kills the player. As you can see, these are only some of the easily exploitable situations that players can (and I would gurarratee WILL use) to greif other players, especially those that are new to the game and haven't grasped the concepts of crimainl flagging and so yet. There are a number of possible options to reduce or prevent ore theft, some already exist in the game and simply require some effort on the players part or some basic co-operation and organisation. Persoanlly I feel trying to use criminal flagging is a bad move and taking the wrong approach to trying to deal with ore theft as criminal flagging basically allows killing in high sec space (and when that happens a dedicated miner will loose nearly every time). /signed
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.12 01:10:00 - [65] I am comforted by these changes. I can now get out my alts and gank miners in high sec, without getting pwned by concord! -- Proud member of the [23].
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.12 01:19:00 - [66] "All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit." Which is, again, the very reason the owner of can is allowed to shoot the thief and the thief cannot shoot back without CONCORD wtfpwning the thief for aggression towards someone who to CONCORD is 'innocent' and not marked as the one initiating the attack. "if they shoot me i can shoot back" is not applied here precisely so there's no ganking in empire with no security hit...
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.12 01:31:00 - [67] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 12/10/2005 01:26:26 "All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit." Which is, again, the very reason the owner of can is allowed to shoot the thief and the thief cannot shoot back without CONCORD wtfpwning the thief for aggression towards someone who to CONCORD is 'innocent' and not marked as the one initiating the attack. "if they shoot me i can shoot back" is not applied here precisely so there's no ganking in empire with no security hit... (oh, and the flags transfer so likely nothing as simple as 'laundering ore' is going to be possible, either. it'll simply result in both the guy who pulls the ore out of can, and the one who puts it in their own can, getting thief flags) could swear this was all described with quite a bit of detail in one of the old blogs, btw o.O; a) Miner mines with friends b) Miner sees silly popup message about moving ore from cans and flagging, doesn't read it, and clicks "never show again." c) Miner is mining alone. He warps off to get his industrial. d) Ore thief decloaks in his armageddon, and moves the miner's can to his own can. The vast majority of miners will probably not look at corptags every time they pick up their can--most likely they won't even have it on their overview. e) The miner comes back in his industrial and picks up the can. f) Ore thief pops miner and takes his local hulls. Repeat over, and over, and over. -- Proud member of the [23].
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.12 04:01:00 - [68] Originally by: Thomus and what happens if ur mining with someone thats not in ur corp or gang? sorry, this has probbly been sed hehe Um.... dont mine with someone who is not in your corp or gang? Same thing as Ultima Online. If you kill a monster and someone, even if he is your friend, loots it right after it died he will "flag as a criminal." If, however, he is in your guild or group he will not flag. This is very simple. No one ever had a problem with it in UO or any other game that has similar rules, why would EVE be different? The GoldenRatio > All.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.12 04:06:00 - [69] Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 12/10/2005 04:05:43 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 12/10/2005 01:26:26 "All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit." Which is, again, the very reason the owner of can is allowed to shoot the thief and the thief cannot shoot back without CONCORD wtfpwning the thief for aggression towards someone who to CONCORD is 'innocent' and not marked as the one initiating the attack. "if they shoot me i can shoot back" is not applied here precisely so there's no ganking in empire with no security hit... (oh, and the flags transfer so likely nothing as simple as 'laundering ore' is going to be possible, either. it'll simply result in both the guy who pulls the ore out of can, and the one who puts it in their own can, getting thief flags) could swear this was all described with quite a bit of detail in one of the old blogs, btw o.O; a) Miner mines with friends b) Miner sees silly popup message about moving ore from cans and flagging, doesn't read it, and clicks "never show again." c) Miner is mining alone. He warps off to get his industrial. d) Ore thief decloaks in his armageddon, and moves the miner's can to his own can. The vast majority of miners will probably not look at corptags every time they pick up their can--most likely they won't even have it on their overview. e) The miner comes back in his industrial and picks up the can. f) Ore thief pops miner and takes his local hulls. Repeat over, and over, and over. A container belonging to you will have a light green hue on overveiw. A container belonging to someone else not in your corp or gang will have a light red hue. The game ALREADY TRACKS OWNERSHIP ON CONTAINERS, EVE JET CANS. It is already programmed in. A neutral container with no ownership will look the same as they do now. The GoldenRatio > All.
Kim Chee	Posted - 2005.10.12 04:55:00 - [70] This just sounds like they're treating the symptoms, not the illness. The "problem" is that secure containers aren't big enough to work as well as jetcans for large scale mining. Instead of allowing the miner to shoot back at the supposed thief, why not prevent the theft by adding the right tool? Giant Secure Containers hold 3.9K m3, have to be anchored, and are permenant unless destroyed. Jetcans hold around 30K m3, can be used immediately, and auto-pop approximately an hour after deployment. Why not create a collapsable secure container? Have it take only a few hundred m3 when packaged, but allow it to auto-deploy when jettisoned. It could hold the same amount as a jetcan, and auto-pop after an hour to avoid clutter... but you could password it, and it could only be collected if empty. That way, miners can just launch one, set a password and pretend it's a jetcan, letting bigger ships collect the contents as they do now. The cans themselves have to be purchased and reclaimed (unless you want to let them pop). They're protected like secure cans, so no password, no contents. Best of all, no new abuse methods get introduced like those mentioned in prior posts here. I managed to get my roommate to play a 14 day trial of EVE, and if she can afford it, she will probably subscribe. The "career" she created for herself is a junk dealer. She travels around and collects all the abandoned low-level loot cans that people leave around, and sells it. EVE is free-form enough to allow things like that, and nobody ever complained, since she never took things out from under people. Yet her inventive playstyle would be labelled "criminal" by the new code.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.10.12 05:03:00 - [71] Oh this will be so great, minign with 5 warpscramblers, targeting people as they come in... then when they touch the can, bam, scrambled, then you drone them dead.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.12 05:46:00 - [72] Originally by: Kim Chee This just sounds like they're treating the symptoms, not the illness. The "problem" is that secure containers aren't big enough to work as well as jetcans for large scale mining. Instead of allowing the miner to shoot back at the supposed thief, why not prevent the theft by adding the right tool? I think how CCP is chosing to do it really adds to the fun of EVE. The GoldenRatio > All.
Dak Hakin	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:10:00 - [73] I dont think taking from a jetcan should be flagged. If you jet the can, it should be fair game. I like the idea of a deployable secure "jetcan"... But if I jet out a basic repair and JoeBlow picks it up, hell, I didnt want the damn thing, but it opens up the chance for me to blast him, and devious bastard that I am, I'll do it. If miners dont want their ore stolen, use secure cans. Otherwise, you are asking for it imho.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:19:00 - [74] FFS the only reason why we are bringing this is up is that it'll harm the playerbase. Lets face it, the "griefers" or whatever you want to call them have more "brains" than the people who rely on game mechanics to protect them. All most of are trying to do is show that this will open up more avenues for them to "grief" and affect the playerbase. The ore thieves will adapt.. lets face it there are too many loopholes in any system CCP thinks up that can be exploited. All we are trying to do is show that rather than a positive effect many believe it will have, it is instead a negative effect.
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2005.10.12 07:13:00 - [75] Quote: This just sounds like they're treating the symptoms, not the illness. I agree. I believe that the solution for this unintended feature of jetcan mining should be addressed by removing the huge size of jetcans. I would suggest that one should not be able to put anything into a jetcan. Those cans should only be made by jettisoning, and with the limitation of jettisoning only for every 5mins. --- SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Guntaro	Posted - 2005.10.12 07:17:00 - [76] I want password settable/optional jet cans!
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.10.12 07:33:00 - [77] Originally by: Melkisadek if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage Insurance company is one thing, they have a financial reason not to pay out. Concord are NOT an insurance company, they are the law enforcer. In your example, if the police caught the guy taking your car, they would STILL prosecute - it is still theft to take something that is not yours, no matter how easily available it appeared to be. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.10.12 07:43:00 - [78] Something someons said made me think... Why flag the thief, why not flag the ore instead? If you take from a can that's not yours, the ore gets a "stolen" marker. Carrying stolen goods in high sec space means that Concord will attack you, but NOT kill you - same rules as for contraband, they simply scramble, confiscate the goods and fine you. Stolen goods cannot be sold in high sec systems (again, same as contraband). I wouldn't mind the same rules applying to this, in that SOMEtimes the thief would get away with it, if they were prepared to train up their black market skills. As an extra, the "thief" could apply to have the "stolen" tag removed, in which case the original owner of the materials gets an EVEmail to that effect - if they agree ('cos it'a friend who wasn't ganged) then the mark is removed. If they disagree, 90% of the ore/items are returned to them (Concord take the other 10% as their fee). Comments? ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
BuzzBuz	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:23:00 - [79] Originally by: Grey Area Edited by: Grey Area on 12/10/2005 07:49:52 <<Snipped>> .... Comments? As I have been entrusted with a mighty ship and weapons to match I prefer to deal out my own justice :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ...One mans rubbish is another mans treasure...
Sonreir	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:27:00 - [80] Originally by: Grey Area Comments? Way too complicated. Just make secure containers bigger. Or make those that get criminally flagged and attacked not have the option to shoot back. If some guy breaks into my house and I start shooting at him, you think if he shoots back he's not going to get in trouble with the cops? He's gonna be in even more trouble.
M3ta7h3ad	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:40:00 - [81] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:54 Edited by: The GoldenRatio on 11/10/2005 18:21:00 Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 11/10/2005 18:17:06 theres nothing cunning about fitting 4x(you can fit 5 if you take off an ab) racial jammers on an indy and then locking them up before taking their ore. Even if their mining(fake mining) in a BS they cant do anything about it. The chances of 5x racial jammers failing when your well under optimal is close to 0. What if they jam you first? They get first shot you know. At least skills and mods are required now. I'm sure a smart miner can think of something. And again, it is the MINERS CHOICE to fire at the theif. If the miner choses not to shoot after he is robbed, its no worse than the current system where people freely take ore with no need of planning what to do in case they get attacked. Nothing has been lost. How many ECM's can you fit to a ship thats fully kitted out with Miner II's? You have about as much electronic warfare capability as a giant halibut. Mining Lasers completely gimp your set up.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:11:00 - [82] Depends on ship and setup etc. If you dont think you can do anything to the theif, don't shoot him. Thats pretty simple. No diff than it is now... The GoldenRatio > All.
Kermit Frogly	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:25:00 - [83] Ever since I saw how much a jetcan could hold, I thought..."That came out of my ship?". How can a ship with a cargo capacity of 300 m3 jettison a can that is capable of holding 100 times the volume the ship can take on? I say we nerf jetcans completely.
Severe McCald	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Kurren If you're mining with somebody... and they take your ore... and you're ok with it........ DON'T SHOOT THEM! Sorry bout that... but sarcasm prevailed despite best efforts Do we know that only the miner can shoot them? My question was a follow up on the question about who the "thief" is criminally flagged to. But don't let thinking get in the way of being sarcastic. Sarcasm is a form of wit. Sev We are what we repeatedly do - Aristotle. That has got to be a worry.
Braaage	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:34:00 - [85] 1) Make secure cans bigger, they are useless to a fully equipped and skilled miner. 2) Make the "shoot the thief" one way, ie only the miner can shoot the theif, not allowing the theif to shoot the miner. 3) Make No2 system wide - anyone can shoot the theif but the theif cannot fight back (or he gets criminally flagged by Concord). 4) Put Ore cargo bays into ships, fix the size, say 25,000m3 that way we don't need cans at all. 5) Extra feature for No4, allow direct trade from ship to ship in space, allowing you to trade an entire cargo hold/ore hold direct to a hauler. 6) See No1 7) Did I mention No1 8) No really No1 solves all the problems. ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online *New - Building an Outpost
Severe McCald	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:49:00 - [86] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Um.... dont mine with someone who is not in your corp or gang? How many times have you had to be re-ganged in a single evening as a result of lag, crashes, changes of personnel etc? I imagine it will be easy to forget on a mining op., when there are no bonuses (like not being shot at) to being in gang. Have we established that it is only the miner who can shoot the "criminal" yet? Cannot see an answer to that question. Sev Sev We are what we repeatedly do - Aristotle. That has got to be a worry.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:16:00 - [87] Originally by: SengH All you need to do is warp out plain and simple. If you achieve that, youve accomplished your goal. Most ore thieves ive seen haul the ore out to a safespot. There they can park a BS and come back and wtfpwn the miner since they are agressed. If you guys were yelling about mizz and his smarties before, LOL when you see these changes go through. It'll be a massacre. Ganking in empire w/o the sec hit. Very simple - clear the aggressed flag that allows the thief to fire back whenever you change ship. This is reasonable as changing ship requires you to either dock or eject your pod. If you're docked, you're in no immediate danger, and ejecting your pod while in immediate danger would be a bit silly, so it's fair to assume you're not. That way if the thief switches ship, he has to get the miner to attack him again before he can execute his evil gankage. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Depends on ship and setup etc. If you dont think you can do anything to the theif, don't shoot him. Thats pretty simple. No diff than it is now... Unfortunately it's a point most seem to be missing. The only way the system can be used to do anything dastardly is to provoke you into doing one of 2 stupid things: 1) Firing at a ship you have no chance of defeating. 2) Taking from a can that isn't yours. Number 1 should be blatantly obvious to all players. If it isn't, then being ganked by an ore thief is going to be the least of their worries in eve. The change in mechanic for number 2 will likely be advertised in patchnotes, news item and with an in-game popup warning. If you have seen and disabled the warning, you have no excuse about not knowing about the mechanic. The excuse of clicking through and disabling it without reading it is not valid, as it demonstrates a willful disregard towards even a basic understanding of game mechanics. Convincing other players to do something stupid is not griefing. Yes, there will have to be a change in looting culture, away from taking anything to taking what you're allowed to, or think you can get away with. Sure, you can go round stealing ore in a battleship or HAC and miners will have to sit there and let you. But they'll probably be laughing at you for wasting over 100mill of ship in stealing a few hundred m3 of scordite. The "Ore washing" method is similarly silly, you're now using 2 accounts to achieve what you could previously do with just 1. There will still be ways to steal, but that's no different from how it is now. If CCP had wanted these changes to stop thieving completely, they would have released a 27500m3 secure container. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
shamonebiatch	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:17:00 - [88] All i can say, is that if the devs read the forums and see all these people talking about exploits, then they already know that people will use them and work out a system to prevent them happening.
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:35:00 - [89] Originally by: Kermit Frogly Ever since I saw how much a jetcan could hold, I thought..."That came out of my ship?". How can a ship with a cargo capacity of 300 m3 jettison a can that is capable of holding 100 times the volume the ship can take on? I say we nerf jetcans completely. It's amazing how the volume of a helium balloon increases as it's surface area stretches during inflation. If you want to argue about jet-cans, consider them to be like inflatables (bubbles).
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:43:00 - [90] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Melkisadek if in RL i left my car with engine running outside a shop to speed up my time away from the computer and someone pinched it the insurance company wouldn't pay out - very little difference here as far as it goes - if you are willing to leave unsecured items hanging around then you have to accept that there are always elements in any society RL or RPG that will take advantage Insurance company is one thing, they have a financial reason not to pay out. Concord are NOT an insurance company, they are the law enforcer. In your example, if the police caught the guy taking your car, they would STILL prosecute - it is still theft to take something that is not yours, no matter how easily available it appeared to be. in the uk at least the police will also prosecute the owner of the vehicle for leaving it with engine running - so should the miner be flagged as criminally irresponsible for leaving unsecured items lying around as well? anyone with a positive sec status should then be able to shoot at said miner for encouraging lawlessness in empire space - perfect solution methinks
Dr Slaughter	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:46:00 - [91] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 12/10/2005 10:49:40 OFGS why make it so complex. If CCP can track the 'theft' just give the 'thief' a small standings hit to: 1. The thiefs security sec, and, 2. Any faction standings associated with the space they're stealing in. After a while the thieves will be ganked by CONCORD or local sentry guns and, finally, local government will be involved in stopping theft (as it should be). oh and... Quote: anyone with a positive sec status should then be able to shoot at said miner for encouraging lawlessness in empire space - perfect solution methinks Razz is just depressingly stupid. If you follow that logic then I should be able to pod anyone I can because I have bigger guns and they're encouraging me to do it by having smaller guns. Don't fly shuttles....
Fester Addams	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:53:00 - [92] Yes, the proposed change can be exploitable but rather than asking for the change to not be done come upp with constructive means to alter the system so that this will be implemented. You all know the next step is that ore thives will be concorded and none of us want that. One way to keep ore thives at bay is if a player in a BS creates all the cans and sits in wait in a sniping BS, possibly cloaked. When the thief comes along and does his thing (shifts the ore or whatever) the BS takes him out from afar, 6 1400 tech II's with plenty of gyrostabs and a stationary target spells POOF! Personally I sugest that each and everyone on here that has an opinion one way or the other should take a run on the test server, try out how it atm works and REPORT your findings to CCP. If people who are affected dont playtest it when its available to be playtested then the playtesting will happen on Tranq and I am sad to say it but my guess is that a majority of the thives have already scoped out how it works atm and have devised ways to use the new code to their advantage. If miners dont go over it it wont be modified to fit the miners and it will be open to just the kind of abuse many people against the change are voicing. Dont talk about it, go test it and report your findings to CCP! ------------ 20. Is it true all pvpers have carebear alts? Yes, of course. I have so much fun looking up who's alt is who's kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Matthew	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:54:00 - [93] Originally by: Kermit Frogly Ever since I saw how much a jetcan could hold, I thought..."That came out of my ship?". How can a ship with a cargo capacity of 300 m3 jettison a can that is capable of holding 100 times the volume the ship can take on? I say we nerf jetcans completely. Buy a flatpack wardrobe from your local furniture store. See how it's reletively small, and can just about be persuaded into a car. Now assemble it and try getting it into your car A huge amount of research has and is going on in the space industry on collapsible and self-deploying structures, specifically to overcome the problem of fitting large structures into small launch vehicles. Current technology is more than capable of building a space-deployable container that would sit "flatpacked" in the launch vehicle, but automatically assemble itself to many times the volume when released into space. Thinking about it, this sort of technology can already be seen in the latest self-assembly tents. They start off as a small, flat, easy to carry package, but hit the trigger and they pop up into a fair-sized 2-man tent. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Roshan longshot	Posted - 2005.10.12 10:55:00 - [94] Wonder if it would be an exploit, for a person to use his PVP battleship to steal ore? I know you wont get alot, but the thought of a miner **in off the ore stealer in a close range blaster boat..... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i**] or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.10.12 11:10:00 - [95] Originally by: Roshan longshot Wonder if it would be an exploit, for a person to use his PVP battleship to steal ore? I know you wont get alot, but the thought of a miner ****in off the ore stealer in a close range blaster boat..... Can't see why it would be - the system is designed to let the miner fight for their ore if they wish to. Being able to win the fight is entirely the responsibility of the miner, the system makes no guarantee on that front. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.12 11:25:00 - [96] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Quote: anyone with a positive sec status should then be able to shoot at said miner for encouraging lawlessness in empire space - perfect solution methinks Razz is just depressingly stupid. If you follow that logic then I should be able to pod anyone I can because I have bigger guns and they're encouraging me to do it by having smaller guns. Don't fly shuttles.... it was supposed to sound ridiculous because thats what it is - but it is in effect what is going to happen because miners don't seem capable of accepting the fact that an 'exploit' they use to their advantage comes with related problems that they need to solve themselves without the intervention of CCP (except in the case of new style secure containers) nerf jet cans and the problem disappears - as no-one wants that to happen then the solution has to come from the mining angle NOT the thieving angle whether that comes from larger secure containers or flagging the goods themselves as contraband is up to CCP but the currently proposed system introduces far more bad elements than good and adversely affects hundreds of newish players who don't have anything to do with mining or ore theft any fix should be almost invisible to anyone not involved and as i said earlier - if a certain party has to take a hit somewhere then it has to be the miners as they are the ones who ultimately caused the problem the only in game change to other players will then be a hike in prices as the economy re-adjusts
Svett	Posted - 2005.10.12 11:28:00 - [97] no such thing as an ore thief, unless they steal it from a corp hang.
Graznos	Posted - 2005.10.12 11:54:00 - [98] Now that ore-thieving comes with some risk, I think it will become more widespread. It is now honorable, a true profession by every measurement, and there will be no more excuses to use against ore-theives. If you can't stop them, its your fault, not theirs for being cheap bastards. I hope no one thinks this will deter a single thief... they'll just have to be more resourceful, and can now rub your face in the dirt, if they get away with your ore.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.12 12:27:00 - [99] Cans as a Pvp tool. Nice. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Sonreir	Posted - 2005.10.12 12:41:00 - [100] Originally by: Roshan longshot Wonder if it would be an exploit, for a person to use his PVP battleship to steal ore? I know you wont get alot, but the thought of a miner ****in off the ore stealer in a close range blaster boat..... How much ore do you think someone is able to fit an a PVP battleship? 600m3? 700m3 maybe? Not a whole heck of a lot, that's for sure. While that thief is taking his/her 700m3 of my ore, I've flown back to station and picked up my indy to get the rest. The ore thief has just stolen chump change (and used a 100 million ISK ship to do it I might add) and all I've lost is a bit of time. The "professional" ore thieves use indys. Now if I choose to go mining in my Dominix instead of my Covetor I will get less ore, but you can bet I will be able to handle an indy if it decides to get fresh.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.10.12 12:49:00 - [101] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 12/10/2005 12:53:50 Seems to be more exploitable and newbie unfriendly than I first thought. Suggestion: Another possibility would be that you are able to mark or unmark jet cans that belong to you (!) and claim or release ownership that way. Then the mark status is visible in the overview and can't be changed while someone accesses the can. If someone accesses a can that was marked by the owner, a warning pops ups and if someone takes stuff from the can, it's handled as a theft. If the can isn't marked, everyone is free to take it. Could be done with everthing: E.g. Loot cans of your destroyed ship could be marked automatically, mission cans or ore cans could be marked by yourself similar to the tagging in the overview. This would be so easy, that even mission runners could mark their battleship loot cans within a second during a fight, if they want. ( I often tag bs cans while hunting, if I want to collect them later. Marking would be the same. ) If that was implemented, everyone could use the system he wants and newbies would be protected. They could still collect all the cans that nobody wants. That's just an idea that cam into my mind. /edit marked cans could get just another symbol in the overview, then we wouldn't need another column there. But like I said, this idea has grown in a few seconds. No warranty that it good.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.12 13:00:00 - [102] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/10/2005 13:01:34 Originally by: Sonreir Originally by: Roshan longshot Wonder if it would be an exploit, for a person to use his PVP battleship to steal ore? I know you wont get alot, but the thought of a miner ****in off the ore stealer in a close range blaster boat..... How much ore do you think someone is able to fit an a PVP battleship? 600m3? 700m3 maybe? Not a whole heck of a lot, that's for sure. While that thief is taking his/her 700m3 of my ore, I've flown back to station and picked up my indy to get the rest. The ore thief has just stolen chump change (and used a 100 million ISK ship to do it I might add) and all I've lost is a bit of time. The "professional" ore thieves use indys. Now if I choose to go mining in my Dominix instead of my Covetor I will get less ore, but you can bet I will be able to handle an indy if it decides to get fresh. Ore thief makes a Jet can. Ore thief opens your can. Ore thief drops the ore you jettisoned into his jet can. Now, Either you pay him ISKies at once to get it back, or He blows it up. Heh. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Cardassius	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:08:00 - [103] Just make it so that ppl who are not in gang with eachother lose security status with concord every time they take something from a can in high sec space. Many people won't like low security standing with concord so they stop thieving ;) ASCI Recruiting!
Matthew	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:15:00 - [104] Originally by: Maya Rkell Ore thief makes a Jet can. Ore thief opens your can. Ore thief drops the ore you jettisoned into his jet can. Now, Either you pay him ISKies at once to get it back, or He blows it up. Heh. Of course you can already do this in exactly the same way even without the thief flagging. The only difference thief flagging makes is that the miner has the chance of destroying the thiefs expensive ship in return if he can bait them into a trap. Sure, the odds may not be great if you're in a mining fitting, but right now if you want to retaliate, you have to face both the thief and concord. Facing just the thief does improve the odds a fair bit You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
SolarKnight	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:22:00 - [105] Edited by: SolarKnight on 12/10/2005 14:24:08 Edited by: SolarKnight on 12/10/2005 14:23:54 Edited by: SolarKnight on 12/10/2005 14:23:03 Simple Answer: Pilot makes jet can, new algorithm scans and records people in gang so no neutrals are flagged at any time, (or make it so people can mark who they are mining with so that again those dont get flagged). New Pilot swoops in and steals ore, algorithm detects that they are not marked as mining buddy, or in gang. Therefore gets flagged. (algoritm detects which can said ore is stolen from, and tracks it to make sure no exploits, maybe also makes it so that while flagged, theif is unable to dock as in normal criminal system until flag is gone, but thats optional, another option is to lock the ore so it cant be transferred to another ship but the original owners) pilot then has x amount of time to shoot at thief while they are flagged.
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:27:00 - [106] Originally by: Cardassius Just make it so that ppl who are not in gang with eachother lose security status with concord every time they take something from a can in high sec space. Many people won't like low security standing with concord so they stop thieving ;) so i should get a sec status hit for being a member of the junk-picker-upperers guild simple answer - nerf the jet cans slightly less simple but still exceedingly simple answer that doesn't change gameplay - introduce a new style of cargo container with large capacity but passwordable slightly less simple but still exceedingly simple answer that does change gameplay - make jet cans ONLY taggable as owned and apply any new rules to those cans only - mark them clearly in the overview and don't tamper with rat/complex drops - i.e. waste a lot of time and effort coding something to let miners get round the ore thief problem THAT THEY CREATED
Locke DieDrake	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:58:00 - [107] I find this whole thing hilarious. I'm kinda new, but I really don't understand the problem with ore theifs. Why the ^#%$ are you leaving unsecured cans with your stuff in them? As for loot cans, I can see an issue here, but unless an option to make them public is around, or a range limit (say from them and they become public, obviously, this doesn't work with ore cans) then you are just crippling some of the normal everyday functions people use. I often leave the belts riddled with loot cans from the NPC rats I popped, it's not worth the time it takes to pick them up. I'm just after bounty (and sec status), and I don't see why a miner, or another player shouldn't be able to come along and get them. I would imagine that CCP thought of this, and the system works in such a way that only the owner has gank rights on the theif, and therefore if I ignore the theft, it didn't happen. Which is fine. Second, if new players, or uninformed players don't know whats going on, they will learn very quickly. I don't see the problem. If a battleship sets a gank trap, and you fall for it, thats your own problem. You hopefully won't fall for it again, and maybe you'll read the patch notes next time. :shrug: In short, I don't see the problem that this ment to fix, and I don't see the problem with the fix either. (except for scavengers, who no one cares about)
Sonreir	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:10:00 - [108] Edited by: Sonreir on 12/10/2005 15:10:37 Originally by: Melkisadek simple answer - nerf the jet cans So you're cool with paying 200 million for your next battleship? If ore gets harder to mine, then prices for minerals will go up. Also, I don't like the way you seem to pin the problem on the miners. Looking to rationalize your own thieving, eh? Or maybe you're one of those guys that complains about the amount of sec containers floating around as well. You just figure that miners are the root of all evil, huh? How dare they try to earn a few ISK without blowing someone up!
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:15:00 - [109] Originally by: Locke DieDrake I really don't understand the problem with ore theifs. I dont see why we should not be allowed to kill the basterwards either. Kill a thief, what is the problem with that? You take something that does not belong to you, ore or loot, you pay the price. Easy as pie mate. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Eddie Elch	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:19:00 - [110] Did this get implemented? ---------------------------------------------- Life - Don't tell me about Life - Marvin
Ishan Shade	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:46:00 - [111] I think it's ironinc that the people who yell "halleluja" will probably be the first to whine on the forums when they get ganked be a smarter "ore-thief". Personally I think CCP got sick of the whining and decided to give the miners what they want. (and knowing what whould happen to them) "be carefull what you wish for..."
Delana Mosalaine	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:59:00 - [112] Edited by: Delana Mosalaine on 12/10/2005 16:00:21 Originally by: Dr Slaughter Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 12/10/2005 10:49:40 OFGS why make it so complex. If CCP can track the 'theft' just give the 'thief' a small standings hit to: 1. The thiefs security sec, and, 2. Any faction standings associated with the space they're stealing in. After a while the thieves will be ganked by CONCORD or local sentry guns and, finally, local government will be involved in stopping theft (as it should be). Is just depressingly stupid. Those cans were never meant to be used that way. Miners use it to get a better profit from mining,and the little ore they lose from theft is nothing compared to what they would get if they mine with secure cans. I think it's good when miners are able to shoot at thiefs,that makes it all more interesting. Now miners can fight for their money and not only stare at the screen at let the money come
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.10.12 16:25:00 - [113] Edited by: Serpensis on 12/10/2005 16:26:04 Edited by: Serpensis on 12/10/2005 16:25:27 Originally by: Delana Mosalaine I think it's good when miners are able to shoot at thiefs,that makes it all more interesting. Now miners can fight for their money and not only stare at the screen at let the money come I dont think you get the concept of mining, and the ability to hit back at thiefs. Making money mining in secure cans is just too stupid, as the secure cans are too small. Fight? Fight for the money? 8 heavy drones against 1 little puny gun on an indy? Not to mention if you steal from a can belonging to the local BS guarding the mining op. Fight? I think not. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.10.12 16:26:00 - [114] They are NOT going to make secure cans bigger. CCP do NOT want 100's of carebear miner Apocs stripping the ore out of high sec systems with ZERO risk. Hence Ore Thieves are the risk you take, and trust me, CCP are quite happy about that. What has recently come to their attention is that BEING an ore thief is ALSO a zero risk occupation...you steal, you sell, you pay no penalty. The suggested changes are addressing that. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Melkisadek	Posted - 2005.10.12 17:05:00 - [115] Originally by: Sonreir Edited by: Sonreir on 12/10/2005 15:10:37 Originally by: Melkisadek simple answer - nerf the jet cans So you're cool with paying 200 million for your next battleship? If ore gets harder to mine, then prices for minerals will go up. Also, I don't like the way you seem to pin the problem on the miners. Looking to rationalize your own thieving, eh? Or maybe you're one of those guys that complains about the amount of sec containers floating around as well. You just figure that miners are the root of all evil, huh? How dare they try to earn a few ISK without blowing someone up! if you take the time to read back through th ethread then you'll see exactly what i do for a living in eve and ore theft is certainly not it!! i've also already gone through the fact that a) i don't want to see jet cans nerfed and b) the economy will suffer if they are BUT i still feel that the solution to the ore thief problem has to come from the same mining community that caused the problem in the first place - if the only way to do this is to nerf jet cans then so be it there have been quite a few good suggestions in this thread as to ways around the problem that don't involve flagging non ore-thieves as criminal for going about their daily business in eve - all tose options need exhausting before tinkering with the underlying game mechanic to suit the miners
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2005.10.12 18:11:00 - [116] Originally by: Roshan longshot Wonder if it would be an exploit, for a person to use his PVP battleship to steal ore? I know you wont get alot, but the thought of a miner ****in off the ore stealer in a close range blaster boat..... I'd rather a battleship with smaller sized cargo hold steal ore from me than a large hauler. This is a better situation for me as a miner than before. No one is forcing me to shoot the battleship after it takes a few hundred m3 of ore... The GoldenRatio > All.
Delana Mosalaine	Posted - 2005.10.12 18:43:00 - [117] Edited by: Delana Mosalaine on 12/10/2005 18:44:46 Originally by: Serpensis Edited by: Serpensis on 12/10/2005 16:26:04 Edited by: Serpensis on 12/10/2005 16:25:27 Originally by: Delana Mosalaine I think it's good when miners are able to shoot at thiefs,that makes it all more interesting. Now miners can fight for their money and not only stare at the screen at let the money come I dont think you get the concept of mining, and the ability to hit back at thiefs. Making money mining in secure cans is just too stupid, as the secure cans are too small. Fight? Fight for the money? 8 heavy drones against 1 little puny gun on an indy? Not to mention if you steal from a can belonging to the local BS guarding the mining op. Fight? I think not. When miners are in a gang together with ships capable of pvp they can fight back. At least when it's allowed for the whole gang to shoot at the thief (or every ship has to mine a little ore in the can so it's also theirs) With this happening there will be gangs of ore thiefs (ore theft will be secondary,it's all about pvp then) When the concept of mining is to get as much money in the shortest time possible, then i do get it Mining in secure areas was always without risk,with the patch it's with risk. But only if the miner choose to,so it will be more interesting Edit:You forgot my in the quote
Eddie Elch	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:39:00 - [118] To save me wading through 5 pages, anyone tell me if this is coming into the game soon? Now? Never? ---------------------------------------------- Life - Don't tell me about Life - Marvin
Zeromancer	Posted - 2005.10.12 20:01:00 - [119] It's coming soonish
Ratzap	Posted - 2005.10.12 20:08:00 - [120] Instead of waffling/moaning/cheering on the boards, me and some corpies (plus alts) went and logged into the test server to see it live. 1) It's still pretty buggy. Sometimes the thief gets flagged, sometimes not. 2) You get a nice popup that says (roughly) "This stuff belongs to XYZ, taking anything from this can will result in you becoming criminally flagged to XYZ, his corp and his gang". 3) Laundering seems to work but that may simply be because of the bugs (ie it just chose not to work on the 2nd move). 4) When it works, it really works. For you, all corpie and everyone in your gang - there's a flashy line in the overview with a cute little skull 8) Pre-lock as they cruise up to the can and get ready for scram/web/F[1-X] We thought of a few ways to abuse it as we were testing but some of those could stop working when they get the bugs sorted. Ratzap

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