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Jean
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:14:00 -
[1]
By now CCP should recognize that the ingame mechanics are inadequate to handle corp thievery in a proper manner. In RL the police and secret services are able to trace for example a spy to its employer if they dedicate enuff resources to it (tailing/phonetaps/intercept mail/etc).
In EVE it is IMPOSSIBLE to relate any character to any other character on a difrent account. Therefore it is ALWAYS possible that a spy or thief has infiltrated an organisation without ne1 but CCP being able to see this. There is simply NO WAY whatsoever to ensure u can trust some1. A corp thieve simply :
creates a char on a seperate account
applies to join victim corp
when he sees an oppty to strike, steals everything
leaves the victim corp
transfers stolen goods to his main account
hibernates or deletes the thief account
enjoys the spoils of thievery with his main
and voila... the thief has become instantly rich while no1 can trace him or the stolen goods. So no1 can even retaliate against the person that actually is benefitting from this illegal action.
I simply cannot believe that CCP isnt doing nething abt this. Becoz it is an act in conflict with CCP regulations. The thief is using game mechanics to unfairly gain an advantage over some1 else. The game mechanic being that no screening proces can establish a link between an applicant and a potential enemy trying to infiltrate if seperate accounts are used by the thief (not even a screenshot of the login screen/wallet will help here)
My 0.02 isk
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Specialist in Digital Analogy |
Pestillence
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:21:00 -
[2]
So dont give hangar access to every newbie.
Make sure they are active and participate before granting basic access.
Trusted members get more access. Sure, you can still get screwed but you limit your vulnerability.
The tools are in place. You possibly applied bad judgement when using them.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:22:00 -
[3]
keep a lockable division where only trusted directors and or CEO can use - have a general corp hanger. Um dont recruit players with less than 1m SP.
U can put stuff in containers then lock the containers off with password access given to those who have access.
There are more changes coming in RMR and kali that will further reduce corp theft or at least make these alts build up trust within a corp.
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Jean
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:27:00 -
[4]
FYI.. Our corp does not have problems with this... It just freaks me out that with only half a year of "trust" under ur belt u can severely criple a corp. I know this because I have alts on seperate accounts in large corps/alliances that are in positions to do this. CCP should instate a mechanism that makes these kind of transfers traceable. I agree that loosing stuph this way is ur own dumb fault, but u should at the very least be able to trace the thief to its main.
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Specialist in Digital Analogy |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:36:00 -
[5]
well anyone can turn rogue - how about a specific agent tracing system that allows u to see mains and their alts (2nd accounts wouldnt work) but still. Or better still list CCP bring in along with mains (list both alts if used in their bio) easiest way to track alts.
Also being able to tag high end items and then trace them in the event of a corp theft for 3-4 months to see where they end up
Otherwise ask for screenshots - item transaction history and only let in players that have 3 alts and are prepared to tell u what they are (at the same tiem 2nd accounts u wouldnt know about) but thats a risk factor within eve i guess
Sounds like u guys have been hit hard - and it was probablyh a high ranking or trusted member or director (ppl do go rogue in this game u just have to get up and dust youreself off and recover again) or have the CEO lock down every item for himself
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Siren Shiva
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:39:00 -
[6]
I've only been playing for a few months, and I already know a few methods I could apply to catch 95% of alt corp thieves. To the best of my knowledge, nearly all of them are quite easy to catch before they get a chance to commit a crime.
And yes, overall people are too naive and trusting, which is why beggars make a fortune, too.
Signature graphic removed, please mail us if you would like to know why -Zhuge
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:40:00 -
[7]
It's not that they're doing nothing about it, it's that there's nothing to do. The tools are in the game to secure corporate assets, corporate CEOs and directors should use them to ensure you don't get screwed over like this.
Common sense, y'know?
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:52:00 -
[8]
As in the real world, Trust is a limiting factor on co-operative play (we would mostly implicitly trust our blood relatives with our lives, but the number of others who we would consider trustworthy would rapidly fall off after that).
The problem isn't that alts are not traceable - you cannot robustly create an Alt tracing service - there are too many exceptions to consider, but that such Crimes are lauded as worthy of the highest praise in some corners of the Eve playerbase.
Tracing alts to main characters is not something I would like to see (I've got a few alts doing good business!). Tracing stolen assets is a different matter however; something could perhaps be done in this area.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.10.25 13:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Seleene on 25/10/2005 13:58:21
 Originally by: Winterblink
It's not that they're doing nothing about it, it's that there's nothing to do. The tools are in the game to secure corporate assets, corporate CEOs and directors should use them to ensure you don't get screwed over like this.
Common sense, y'know?
Quoted for truth.
If someone cleaned us out, they'd have quite a lot of minerals, guns and ammo, but nothing we could not replace in about two weeks. I'm the only one in my corp with shares. No one is voting my corp away. All of our T2 and other billion ISK BPO's are locked down. I would hope RONA took at least some of these steps, thus thier future will be hard but secure.
The new CONTRACT system will add a whole new layer of security to a corp as well, but it won't solve everything.
Ultimately, a corp's survival depends on the actions of its members.
EDIT - I would like to say, however, that if someone did manage to steal a valuable BPO that we'd have some way to track it. It's not hard in the real world. Why not in the game?
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We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem! |
Captain IceEye
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Posted - 2005.10.25 14:12:00 -
[10]
ROFL - I am sure GHSC will petition any change in game mechanics concerning corp thef... erm money transfers 
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
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x racer
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Posted - 2005.10.25 14:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: x racer on 25/10/2005 14:43:30
Though our corp thief got away with 5B in corp assets, it represents a small fraction of the total assets of RONA.
All precautions mentioned previously were taken. The theft did seriously compromise our ability to project force, however. The short term future is somewhat unclear, but long term, the RONA leadership has met and is determined to move ahead and press its agenda forward.
The notes of sympathy both from friends and sworn enemies has reaffirmed my faith in the eve playerbase. Also, the addition of our thief and his alts to the corp/alliance KOS lists of 8 of the 10 largest Alliances is very much appreciated. Thank you all.
x
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Emily Spankratchet
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Posted - 2005.10.25 14:41:00 -
[12]
The video of the presentation about contracts in the FanFest pictures sticky thread was enlightening. Contracts will also apply within corporations, allowing corps to set tasks for members to perform. It seemed from what was being said that this will add to security.
So maybe CCP is doing something.
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Dave Tehsulei
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Posted - 2005.10.25 14:55:00 -
[13]
ccps reluctance to do anything about corp theft is a disgrace, these organised thefts are becoming the new way to hurt your enemy.. war decs and pvp no longer matter, if you want to really hurt your enemy you find someone that is capable of lying through their teeth for months.. sometimes involving conversations over team speak and such.. people that play the game.. that is paying monthly to play eve online so they can log in everyday and lie to people that call them friends, i find it disgusting..
the only thing ccp accomplishes by ignoring this kind of thing.. and claiming that current game mechanics are sufficient.. is build a atmosphere of total paranoia in corporations... its happened to my corp.. the idiot that did it decided stealing 20mil worth of ammo and noob mods out of our hangars was sufficient, thanks aoi  , how do we carry on knowing that people we recruit, people we talk with on team speak daily, may actually just be lying to us to get access to our expensive hangars.. i dont want to run a corporation.. as part of my game play.. where i have to be suspicious of all my members, THAT IS NOT FUN and its not something that encourages me to pay my subscription fee..
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:03:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 25/10/2005 15:03:17
There's no way to steal from a corp that knows what it is doing.
In general, if a hangar has less in it than all the members with access believe their honor and membership is worth, it will not be stolen from. In addition, the poor should not be given access to rich hangars (general rule).
Another way of putting it is that if you could sell a character for more ISK than that character has access to in the hangars, that character most likely will not ruin his reputation by thieving.
Thank god CCP hasn't "fixed" this. Corp thieving is a smack on the head to people who don't know how to run a corp, but choose to run one anyways.
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Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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Dave Tehsulei
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 25/10/2005 15:04:30
Originally by: Seleene
Edited by: Seleene on 25/10/2005 13:58:21
Originally by: Winterblink
It's not that they're doing nothing about it, it's that there's nothing to do. The tools are in the game to secure corporate assets, corporate CEOs and directors should use them to ensure you don't get screwed over like this.
Common sense, y'know?
Quoted for truth.
so, all eve corps should have all assets completely locked down, no members have access to anything the ceo/directors have to hand everything out.. what kind of corporation is that, theres no sharing of assets and it sends a message of distrust to all the members
there is no way to punish those that have stolen from you if they have done it right.. as most do, using an alt to get in and handing the assets over to his main once its done .. most of the time you will never know the corporation behind it and if you do manage to track down the culprit he can just hide in a noob corp for as long as he likes
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei
Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 25/10/2005 15:04:30
Originally by: Seleene
Edited by: Seleene on 25/10/2005 13:58:21
Originally by: Winterblink
It's not that they're doing nothing about it, it's that there's nothing to do. The tools are in the game to secure corporate assets, corporate CEOs and directors should use them to ensure you don't get screwed over like this.
Common sense, y'know?
Quoted for truth.
so, all eve corps should have all assets completely locked down, no members have access to anything the ceo/directors have to hand everything out.. what kind of corporation is that, theres no sharing of assets and it sends a message of distrust to all the members
there is no way to punish those that have stolen from you if they have done it right.. as most do, using an alt to get in and handing the assets over to his main once its done .. most of the time you will never know the corporation behind it and if you do manage to track down the culprit he can just hide in a noob corp for as long as he likes
As I said in my previous post, simply don't give people access to what is worth more than their character.
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Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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Dave Tehsulei
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:11:00 -
[17]
Quote:
And hell yes you can punish them. Just evemail the CEO of any corp they join--they will be exiled from all honorable corps in EVE (including most pirate corps) forever.
doesnt work when your dealing with alt characters that are probably going to be deleted a few hours after the deed is done
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Amitious Turkey
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei
ccps reluctance to do anything about corp theft is a disgrace, these organised thefts are becoming the new way to hurt your enemy.. war decs and pvp no longer matter, if you want to really hurt your enemy you find someone that is capable of lying through their teeth for months.. sometimes involving conversations over team speak and such.. people that play the game.. that is paying monthly to play eve online so they can log in everyday and lie to people that call them friends, i find it disgusting..
the only thing ccp accomplishes by ignoring this kind of thing.. and claiming that current game mechanics are sufficient.. is build a atmosphere of total paranoia in corporations... its happened to my corp.. the idiot that did it decided stealing 20mil worth of ammo and noob mods out of our hangars was sufficient, thanks aoi , how do we carry on knowing that people we recruit, people we talk with on team speak daily, may actually just be lying to us to get access to our expensive hangars.. i dont want to run a corporation.. as part of my game play.. where i have to be suspicious of all my members, THAT IS NOT FUN and its not something that encourages me to pay my subscription fee..
true that.
it might be tactics(for those who would complain about it 'being part of the game'), but its dishonorable and appaling. i agree with you.
where did the knights in shining armor go
they died along with the rest of the medeival world
makes me want to start a vigilante corp...makes me seriously consider it at least...hmmmmm...
at the very least.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)[]==^= (urtok's bunny)
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
What happened? When did it happen? Where? Who
was involved? Why did it happen? Why is the event SIGnificant?
I AM PWNED BY MY O |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei
so, all eve corps should have all assets completely locked down, no members have access to anything the ceo/directors have to hand everything out.. what kind of corporation is that, theres no sharing of assets and it sends a message of distrust to all the members
there is no way to punish those that have stolen from you if they have done it right.. as most do, using an alt to get in and handing the assets over to his main once its done .. most of the time you will never know the corporation behind it and if you do manage to track down the culprit he can just hide in a noob corp for as long as he likes
So the idea is to prevent theft from the start by securing your most valued assets from day 1. You ask what kind of corporation is that... I answer: a corporation that is using is brain and the available tools to protect itself.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei
Quote:
And hell yes you can punish them. Just evemail the CEO of any corp they join--they will be exiled from all honorable corps in EVE (including most pirate corps) forever.
doesnt work when your dealing with alt characters that are probably going to be deleted a few hours after the deed is done
Wait, why are you giving alts access again? 
In order to justify giving someone access, all the work they have done for that character and the time they have spent with the corp should be worth more than the hangar itself.
Normal members do not need more than basic access to a limited supply hangar anyways.
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Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:38:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 25/10/2005 15:42:12
Originally by: Jean
My 0.02 isk
So, because you are too na´ve and foolish to counter corp-thieves, I - a corp thief by profession - should be deprived of a livelihood? Because you give restricted hangar access to hour-old alts, we should lose the niche we have painstakingly carved out for ourselves in the Eve universe?
There are corporations in Eve which are impregnable to us, utterly impenetrable, because their CEOs are shrewd enough to take full advantage of every security feature available to them. We will not suffer because you lack the foresight to follow in their footsteps.
No, I'm afraid you will not see your wish come true.
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei
so, all eve corps should have all assets completely locked down, no members have access to anything the ceo/directors have to hand everything out.. what kind of corporation is that, theres no sharing of assets and it sends a message of distrust to all the members
It's called risk versus profit. A corporation that shares assets is undeniably more suited to generating money, as exchange of needed items and resources flows smoothly - but you risk getting nailed by a corp thief. A corporation can elect to sacrifice some of that convenience for security. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.
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Zzazzt
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Posted - 2005.10.25 15:39:00 -
[22]
This thread topic is old, worn out & dumb. CCP endorse corp theft as legitimate gameplay. End of discussion. You have the tools to protect yourselves. Use them & stop whining.
____________________________________________
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Thomas Torquemada
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Posted - 2005.10.25 16:43:00 -
[23]
Corp thief's dont cheat or abuse game mechanics, they are GIVEN access, at this time, the end result is your work, as much as it is theirs.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
kcahn
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Posted - 2005.10.25 17:20:00 -
[24]
nothing wrong as things are, other then YOU giving to much access to those that do not need it.
alts are there to be used as we wish, and do not need some petty kiddies pursuing the main due to the alt getting one over on YOU (for being too trusting).
alts are fine, no need to trace alts, instead, look into a mirror and ask "whey tf do I keep giving strangers access to MY corps valued items?? why do I not just MANAGE the items and hand them out IF needed?"
you have access to dro pitems to their hangers
they need no more then VIEW access to any hanger unless you have one common hanger (which still needs managed so no more then is needed is there to be used)
all in all, any major theft, is due to the corp management mismanaging access. Proper management would vastly reduce loss of the common hangers being stripped....you want to blame some one, look in the mirror.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.25 17:58:00 -
[25]
A first small step to help corporations deal with theft would be to make the audit contatiners log what is taken out of them instead of what goes in them (or even better both, but if I had to choose one it would be an easy choice).
Who cares what people put into the hangar, it's what goes out that needs to be logged.
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2005.10.25 18:05:00 -
[26]
Im in a rubbish post.
Reallife a-hole, not just on the internet |
Branmuffin
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Posted - 2005.10.25 18:18:00 -
[27]
Istvaan, it might be a professional secret but could you tell us which corps are in your opinion pretty good with security.
So that we could have at least an Idea of what to model ourselves on.
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Necolycan
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Posted - 2005.10.25 18:24:00 -
[28]
Pretty sure a corp wouldn't want its security secrets given away.
As for corp theivery, Its legit and a profitable way for a newbie to start.
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.10.25 18:27:00 -
[29]
a lot of people are ignoring the OP.
There is no reason not to have mechanisms available so you can at least declare war on the person who corp-thieved you. Anyone argue this?
In any case, I dislike corp thievery because it destroys corp mechanics. For example, mentioned in this thread is not handing out corp shares to prevent some types of corp thievery - which is dumb. That's the only way to do it now, but that's a whole game mechanic utterly destroyed by thievery.
Virtually all methods of catching corp thieves before they strike boil down to catching the thief when he/she has been lazy.
The most irritating thing about corp thievery is taht the corporations most vulnerable to it are the ones that try to help newbies.
I'm not saying, omg make corp thievery impossible, but there should be reasonable negative consequences for it. Like what CCP is doing for Ore Thieves.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Wendat Huron
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Posted - 2005.10.25 18:28:00 -
[30]
Anyone typing ne1 and oppty and on top of that is a member of KIA Corp deserves everything they get.
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