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Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 30/10/2005 21:35:04 Right. After some discussion in other threads, along with some maths and similar i've come to the conclusion that the Sacrilege needs some help. For starters, i think everyone agrees that what the Sacrilege had going for it was its strong tank. However, with the Mk 2 changes, it loses that last edge it had - It is no longer the best tank, but has to share this with the Eagle. Maths to prove, taking into consideration -25% Armor Rep duration and -10% cap use for Shield Boosters: Eagle: With a Large Shield Booster (+ Amp) II boosts 60 (78) shield / second for 36 (36) cap / second. Has an average resistance of: 25% + 70% + 77.5% + 85% = 64.4% Has total shield HP off: 1500 * 1.25 = 1875 Sacrilege: With one (two) Medium Rep II repairs 35 (71) armor / second for 17 (35.5) cap / second. Has an average resistance of: 70% + 85% + 71.875% + 51.25% = 69.5% Has a total armor HP off: 1150 * 1.25 = 1437.5 So Sacrilege repairs less if using one Med Rep II, and repairs less if using 2 Med Reps II. It has slightly higher resistances (8% higher) and has over 23% less HP. It is however slightly more cap efficient. As far as im concerned all is balanced here, although a bit more HP wouldn't go amiss... However, let's take a look at the damage potential of these ships: Im only going to include Cruiser V and HAC V in these calculations, as all other skills affecting this affect both ships the same. Both ships can also equip 2 launchers in their last slot so this does not affect balance either. Eagle with 4 250mm II: (((3.3 * 1.25) / 6.38) * 4) * 10 = 25.68 DpS Optimal range with longest range ammo: 28 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 100.8km + 12km falloff Sacrilege with 4 Heavy Beam II ((3.6 / 6) * 4) * 10 = 24 DpS 24 * 1.5 * 1.6 = 57.6km + 8km falloff Now, besides the obvious fact that both do completely ridiculous damage, we notice that the Eagle does a tad more, and at nearly twice the range. Frankly i think the Sacrilege is a long way away from "...becoming the Royal Khanid NavyÆs flagship cruiser." As far a fixing this goes, i've considered things ranging from boosting the Sacrileges dronebay to 100 (Making it EVE's ultimate hybrid ship - missiles, turrets and drones.) or adding a Launcher and removing a Turret + Removing the turret optimal range bonus for a missile bonus. Comments please.
Indy Boy	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:38:00 - [2] Quote: adding a Launcher and removing a Turret + Removing the turret optimal range bonus for a missile bonus. /signed But better will be if Khanid would be removed with their ships from game. Me wants carthum conglomerate T2 maller version with 5 turret hardpoints and bonuses to tank and lasers, not this damn Khanid hybrid piece of ...
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:54:00 - [3] Edited by: Nafri on 30/10/2005 21:54:49 As deeply Im against boosting any amarr ship in this game ever again one more turret wouldnt hurt at all -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.10.30 21:57:00 - [4] How is sac the best tank now? Zealot with Energized Nano II still has more low slots then sac, same resists as sac, smaller sig, faster speed, less mass, and more armor, all contributing to a better tank, then to top it all off it does more damage in tanked mode then the zealot. Just cause not many tank a zealot doesnt mean its a worse tank then a suckrilige. It just means that a zealot can gank and tank, and the suck can just tank Both the suckrilige and eagle are contenders for crappiest hac in the game, and both need nice makeovers to get rid of there turret/missile hybrid setups which is the primary reason they both suck. Make suck a pure missile boat and eagle a pure gun boat. They will find there place and problem will be solved. _______________________________________________
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:03:00 - [5] Please dont make the sac a missile boat! Basically all i think it needs is to change to 6 turret slots and then give it a +5-10% armour rep ammount per level of the HAC skill instead of the crap missile rof bonus, (what were they thinking ) Real men, play Rugby
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:04:00 - [6] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 30/10/2005 22:05:36 Originally by: Foomanshoe ... Good points ... Right, in general i agree. Point is that Energized Adaptive Nano II will make the other hardners get the stacking penalty, whereas the 25% stock bonus doesn't affect the hardners. Last i did the maths a Sacrilege with 3 hardners had better resistances then a Zealot with an Adaptive Nano and 3 50%. I'll do some calcs later though. As for fixes, ill add another lil comment. I'm not sure if adding a Launcher would help alot. Will have to run some DpS calcs and the lot but i have a feeling it'll just become a second-rank Cerberus. Which admitedly isn't all that hot either. Reason i mmentioned adding a decent dronebay is i find the hybrid has a certain attractiveness. It may not be as good, but its got something. Adding drones aswell would make it fairly efficient at closerange, and still maintain its niche. And yes, i do agree the Eagle isnt the best HAC either atm, but atleast it had its niche, being anti-frig in longrange fleets. Adding a fifth turret slot might do it. Originally by: Jim Steele ... From an Amarr perspective, i agree. But where's the point in having 2 turret HACs? Zealot and Sacrilege would be too similar imho.
danneh	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:20:00 - [7] Sacrilege plz, no missiles and decrease shield for more armor.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Elve Sorrow From an Amarr perspective, i agree. But where's the point in having 2 turret HACs? Zealot and Sacrilege would be too similar imho. Well Amarr are the turret specialists, the Sac would therefor be like a mini-apoc and the Zealot a mini-geddon. You could stick 6 beam lasers on the sac snipe and tank like a mo fo with the changes i suggested, it would actually be worth flying. Originally by: danneh Sacrilege plz, no missiles and decrease shield for more armor. Glad someone agrees with me here.. im fed up of people saying make the sac a tanking cerb. Oh and why does it have more shield than Armour? Its just plain silly! Real men, play Rugby
Bjartmar	Posted - 2005.10.30 22:49:00 - [9] Fix the Sacrilege. 10% more armor A nos bonus or another low slot.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:08:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim Steele Oh and why does it have more shield than Armour? Its just plain silly! Its got the same problems as a vengeance. Launchers (yay!), guns with no dmg bonus (yay!), shield-heavy armor tank (yay!). I want to take part in an event involving the CEO of khanid innovations, so I can pod him. And everytime a dev tells me the sac is a great ship my respect for him drops through the floor. :S -------------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:39:00 - [11] Originally by: Foomanshoe Both the suckrilige and eagle are contenders for crappiest hac in the game, and both need nice makeovers to get rid of there turret/missile hybrid setups which is the primary reason they both suck. Make suck a pure missile boat and eagle a pure gun boat. They will find there place and problem will be solved. You're wrong. Eagle can one-volley interceptors at 75km. That's POWER. Snort. Get facts before posting, thx. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:40:00 - [12] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Jim Steele Oh and why does it have more shield than Armour? Its just plain silly! Its got the same problems as a vengeance. Launchers (yay!), guns with no dmg bonus (yay!), shield-heavy armor tank (yay!). I want to take part in an event involving the CEO of khanid innovations, so I can pod him. And everytime a dev tells me the sac is a great ship my respect for him drops through the floor. :S Great. You keep on underestimating em. I've seen what they can do. The Vengence's problem is that it can't tank that well either. The Sac can. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:44:00 - [13] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Jim Steele Oh and why does it have more shield than Armour? Its just plain silly! Its got the same problems as a vengeance. Launchers (yay!), guns with no dmg bonus (yay!), shield-heavy armor tank (yay!). I want to take part in an event involving the CEO of khanid innovations, so I can pod him. And everytime a dev tells me the sac is a great ship my respect for him drops through the floor. :S kanid ships are pretty much like matari ships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.10.30 23:49:00 - [14] Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2005 23:51:12 Originally by: Nafri kanid ships are pretty much like matari ships I contest that. Matari ships are cool. Khanid ships are like... an eveninig youre forced to spend with some boring distant cousins when youd much rather play eve. ¼___¼ edit: 'part from the malediction, ofc. -------------
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:01:00 - [15] Well the first that needs to be done is a shield reduction and armor increase. Other then that i'm not too sure how to fix the Sac. Here is one idea tho... - launcher point + midslot - missile rof bonus + laser rof bonus That might put it more on par with the Eagle... ________________________________________________________
Marskalkur	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:15:00 - [16] 5 turrets and a rof or damage bonus for energy weapons instead of the missile rof it has. more powergrid and armor.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:16:00 - [17] Originally by: danneh Sacrilege plz, no missiles and decrease shield for more armor. Amarr desperately need a missile boat is the thing. We get EM and Thermal as our only damage types! Minmatar do all types through projectiles, same goes for caldari though missiles, and gallente through drones. Cerb might not be the most uber ship in the game, but id love a cerb that had little less range/damage and armor tanked instead of shield tanked. Heaven forbid that amarr can damage a minmatar ship, cause amarr hacs are so invinsible against minmatar ships right? _______________________________________________
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:21:00 - [18] I agree with Nafri - give it another turret slot, please. I would like to see the Sac become a more utility ship. Give it: - A bonus to Nos Range and/or amount - A bonus to webifier range - Both Remove whatever bonus you need to in order to gain one or both of these. I mean really, the Sac doesn't have more firepower, or tanking, or range, or turrets, or missiles, or drones, or better anything than any other HAC. At least this would give it a niche. Nyxus Oveur> "CUZ I'M EEEXXTTRRREEEEEEEEMME!!"
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:42:00 - [19] Quote: I agree with Nafri - give it another turret slot, please. I would like to see the Sac become a more utility ship. Give it: - A bonus to Nos Range and/or amount - A bonus to webifier range - Both That wouldn't overlap on any other faction's specialties at all. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Megadon	Posted - 2005.10.31 00:54:00 - [20] I dont fly either one of the amarr hacs, but i am training toward that now and have looked very closely at all the hacs in the game to make sure i was on the right track. i really dont like caldari ships. i agree, the sac either needs to have the best tank or improve on its damage output. having both crappy damage output, crappy range, and a very solid but nothing special tank, make for a crappy HAC. It is essentially a tackler/warp to ship or just a specialized purely anti-frig ship. It does, however, have the largest cap of any HAC in the game, 1300, which all goes to the tank and its still not the uber tanker. At least, the caracal has a very respectable range. the Zealot is, well... it is the Zealot The sac has a lot of good bonuses, they just dont add up to enough to get the job done it seems. Back in the day when heavy missiles meant something, this was a good ship, but that's over. I think adding a launcher or launchers would do absolutely nothing for this ship because missiles just dont get it done. I vote on making the tank better. Either increase the powergrid or an additional low slot. None of this will of course ever happen as we all know.
danneh	Posted - 2005.10.31 01:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: danneh Sacrilege plz, no missiles and decrease shield for more armor. Amarr desperately need a missile boat is the thing. We get EM and Thermal as our only damage types! Minmatar do all types through projectiles, same goes for caldari though missiles, and gallente through drones. Cerb might not be the most uber ship in the game, but id love a cerb that had little less range/damage and armor tanked instead of shield tanked. Heaven forbid that amarr can damage a minmatar ship, cause amarr hacs are so invinsible against minmatar ships right? 25m3 of drones bay will do ok kthx, buy a caracal if you want missiles.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.31 01:32:00 - [22] Note that if you boost the Eagle damage, it MUST lose range. It's a nasty enough sniper versus small ships as it is. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
callisthenes excelsior	Posted - 2005.10.31 01:38:00 - [23] This ship is terrible. I wish I hadn't bought it, but here is what I can see. * It needs a bonus that gives it an extra slot. Something like +5% armor repair effiency a level. * Perhaps a slight nudge in speed. The zealot's extra speed is like having a built in nano. * A +2 km web range per level would be nice too... * If someone wanted to REALLY fix this ship, remove the missile slots and give it a smartbomb bonus of -10% smart bomb cap use and fitting per HAC level.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.10.31 03:48:00 - [24] Originally by: danneh 25m3 of drones bay will do ok kthx, buy a caracal if you want missiles. Please name 1 T2 minmatar ship you can kill with 1 heavy drone or 5 light drones? If you cant then stfu, if you can your lying and you should stfu. You know what, dont even bother to reply cause id perfer that you keep stupid remarks like 25m3 of drone space to yourself. _______________________________________________
keepiru	Posted - 2005.10.31 04:17:00 - [25] Hrmmmm... >.>; Missile boat - Please no, amarr do not need a missile boat. You'd end up with a half-assed cerb, and we'd be back to step 1. Smartbomb ship - uhhh, can i have some of what your smoking? Web/Nos - Ashimmu kthnx? The Web/Nos bonus things is the blood thing, its far too off the wall compared to other ship bonuses. Anyway, I doubt CCP would make that big a change to a ship, scope of any change is in switching the 2 weapon bonuses for other weapon bonuses. "Everything" ship - This actually sounds ok. But still rather meh. Evene if they gave it 100m3 theyd have to cut the shield and give it armor. And maybe im crazy but i find weak in the fitting department. -------------
danneh	Posted - 2005.10.31 05:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: danneh 25m3 of drones bay will do ok kthx, buy a caracal if you want missiles. Please name 1 T2 minmatar ship you can kill with 1 heavy drone or 5 light drones? If you cant then stfu, if you can your lying and you should stfu. You know what, dont even bother to reply cause id perfer that you keep stupid remarks like 25m3 of drone space to yourself. A Zealot can kill a vagabond often been proven, now stfu yourself plz.
Darth Podius	Posted - 2005.10.31 05:42:00 - [27] null Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: danneh 25m3 of drones bay will do ok kthx, buy a caracal if you want missiles. Please name 1 T2 minmatar ship you can kill with 1 heavy drone or 5 light drones? If you cant then stfu, if you can your lying and you should stfu. You know what, dont even bother to reply cause id perfer that you keep stupid remarks like 25m3 of drone space to yourself. its like this foo-mans hoe, amar hacs are already bad ass. just because you suck more that a hooker on happy hour doesnt mean we need to go flip floppin ships just to suit crappy /whinny players. btw. stfu stfu stfu
BABARR	Posted - 2005.10.31 06:57:00 - [28] Edited by: BABARR on 31/10/2005 06:57:32 What this topic?? Math to prove it.... ??? A sac going to make less dmg and tank less BUT a sac can fit some jam/damp/scramble/stasis on his med slot, in full tank and dommage config, so dont make me laught whith your math. Beacause an eagle jammed going to make 0 DPM.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.31 07:34:00 - [29] Here's my take on the situation. Or rather my comments on the problems themselves. * Giving Sacrilege more turrets While giving Sacrilege more turrets will ungimp it by letting it do more damage and thus be of greater use, the concept of a high damage laser ship is supposed to be unique to the Zealot. * Giving the Sacrilege Blood Raider faction bonuses This particular angle of approach shouldn't be dismissed because it's the unique ability of the Blood Raider faction, but rather because it is far removed from the Khanid faction. Khanid are hybrid Amarr and Caldari, which means they won't do something that's hybrid Amarr and Gallente (Matari? Nah, Gallente suck more, no? ) * Giving the Sacrilege a large drone bay. While the Sacrilege is a hybrid in all ways, we here see a repeat of the above. Drones are removed from the Amarr and very far removed from the Caldari, and thus it is extremely unlikely that Khanid would design a drone using ship. I think the key would be to find a bonus and layout that's unique, but still doesn't intrude on other T2 ship designs (i.e. no EWar bonuses). I don't fly Sacrileges yet myself (yet), so I won't comment any deeper. However, perhaps increased mid slots (and CPU) is all it needs? Originally by: BABARR Edited by: BABARR on 31/10/2005 06:57:32 What this topic?? Math to prove it.... ??? A sac going to make less dmg and tank less BUT a sac can fit some jam/damp/scramble/stasis on his med slot, in full tank and dommage config, so dont make me laught whith your math. Beacause an eagle jammed going to make 0 DPM. The Sacrilege has fitting issues, too. And the comparison isn't Eagle vs Sacrilege, the comparison is between Eagle AND Sacrilege and how while both suck, the Sacrilege suck more. Which it does. Teleportation device? Used to highjack other's ships? We had one. It was destroyed by friendly fire, though.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.10.31 08:04:00 - [30] Either way, the thing sucks ass, and is in need of a fixing.
Baraak Tizhaan	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:15:00 - [31] Has anyone tried shield tanking the Sacrilege? I've often wondered if that's why it's so named, becuase it doesn't rely heavily on armour tanking nor on laser damage, but instead shields and missiles. [
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:24:00 - [32] please don't change it! just fly zealot if you want turretboat... don't understand... -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:25:00 - [33] I don't get whats wrong with doing this :/ Remove a highslot (launcher point) so that it has 5 highs. Now add a midslot and change the missile rof bonus to a laser rof bonus. It still won't be doing anywhere near the damage of a Zealot but it'll be decent. Also, reducing shields and increasing armor is a MUST. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Weirda please don't change it! just fly zealot if you want turretboat... don't understand... It sucks Weirda. With the Eagle tanking just as good next patch there really will be no reason to fly one. Unless of course tackling with a 100m ship does it for you ________________________________________________________
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Weirda please don't change it! just fly zealot if you want turretboat... don't understand... It sucks Weirda. With the Eagle tanking just as good next patch there really will be no reason to fly one. Unless of course tackling with a 100m ship does it for you hey at least it have more then one mid! honestly though - sac have the cap to run those reppers... the eagle does not... cap per second aside. sure you don't HAVE to run it forever - but honestly have seen eagle tanks fail rather quickly with a med shield repper. dunno don't use hybrid trash - but pretty sure that if a rail doesn't use more cap/s then a laser on an amarr ship, it definatley uses way more from a cap/s vs. crappy capacitor perspective. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:43:00 - [36] Originally by: Weirda honestly though - sac have the cap to run those reppers... the eagle does not... cap per second aside. sure you don't HAVE to run it forever - but honestly have seen eagle tanks fail rather quickly with a med shield repper. Well using a med shield repper is the problem i think Most use large afaik. Eagle can kill stuff and from quite a distance. Sacrilege can uh, NOS stuff...same as Ishtar just without the damage and EW ________________________________________________________
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.31 09:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Meridius Well using a med shield repper is the problem i think Most use large afaik. Eagle can kill stuff and from quite a distance. Sacrilege can uh, NOS stuff...same as Ishtar just without the damage and EW doh - was unclear with point. have seen eagle's CAP fail rather quickly with a medium2, with a large it would be humerous. whereas the sac could actually run the damned things. for a while... -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Ethidium Bromide	Posted - 2005.10.31 10:07:00 - [38] i'm using a nos launcher setup in pvp to tank and kill frigs/ceptors. all the cap runs into tanking but still without tracking disruptors you are going to die anyway once a bsd shows up... i like the idea of the increased dronebay or an additional launcher hp though
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 10:07:00 - [39] Originally by: Weirda doh - was unclear with point. have seen eagle's CAP fail rather quickly with a medium2, with a large it would be humerous. Well talking to an Eagle pilot friend now and he says that he can run his Large SB II forever with no guns firing. With guns firing he can sustain it for a while (never tested how long it would last). ________________________________________________________
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.31 10:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Meridius I don't get whats wrong with doing this :/ Remove a highslot (launcher point) so that it has 5 highs. Now add a midslot and change the missile rof bonus to a laser rof bonus. It still won't be doing anywhere near the damage of a Zealot but it'll be decent. Also, reducing shields and increasing armor is a MUST. Sacrilege will never get 5 mids -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Kinsy	Posted - 2005.10.31 10:22:00 - [41] I think I have a solution. Turn Sacriledge BPOs into Zealot BPOs. Problem solved, everyone is happy.
ParMizaN	Posted - 2005.10.31 10:51:00 - [42] the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Killing the rich and giving to me
Ardor	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:11:00 - [43] As a producer I dislike the fact that the Sacrilege is not popular. Other HAC sell for twice the isk. I would not complain if the Sacrilege gets a boost. The Sacrilege is my ship of choice not only because I can produce it for myself but because I honestly do believe it is one of the best if not the best HAC. Of course I would not complain if the Sacrilege gets a boost. As a player who wants a fair balance for all races I have to say the Sacrilege does not need a boost. Do not nerf the missile slots or the missile bonus of the Sacrilege! The Sacrilege will become useless if you turn it into another laser boat. It's nice to have at least one Amarr ship that can deal kinetic and explosive damage.
Heelay Ashrum	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:14:00 - [44] Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 31/10/2005 11:14:18 Quick question: where the hell it's wrote that sacrilege will be changed? As far i read in "mk2 sticky thread" i see tuxford saying: Quote: I'm not really going through the tech 2 ship and drastically change them, but if it was, then I probably wouldn't do anything about the sacri it's a damn fine ship imo. I missed something?
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:25:00 - [45] Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/10/2005 11:27:02 Originally by: Meridius It sucks Weirda. With the Eagle tanking just as good next patch there really will be no reason to fly one. Unless of course tackling with a 100m ship does it for you You're right in that the sacrilege is relegated to basically being a tackler in fleets (where focused, long-range fire and damage output is king), but what's being overlooked is its value as a solo PvP ship - it's extremely hard to kill and can tank most opponents to a faretheewell. I've run into a number of zealots and sacrileges flying solo, and I honestly fear the sacrilege more than the zealot in a one-on-one situation; I know I can break a zealot's tank and take it out, but breaking a sacrilege's tank can very iffy if the ship you're flying doesn't have nos. -Wrayeth
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:26:00 - [46] Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. Caldari: Rails, missles, shield tanking, EW Amarr: Lasers, armor tanking Gallente: Hybdrids, armor tanking, drones, navigation Matari: Projectiles, missles, armor tanking, shield tanking, navigation, drones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
ParMizaN	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. Caldari: Rails, missles, shield tanking, EW Amarr: Lasers, armor tanking Gallente: Hybdrids, armor tanking, drones, navigation Matari: Projectiles, missles, armor tanking, shield tanking, navigation, drones shhhh... you and your balance ¼_¼ Killing the rich and giving to me
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. Caldari: Rails, missles, shield tanking, EW Amarr: Lasers, armor tanking Gallente: Hybdrids, armor tanking, drones, navigation Matari: Projectiles, missles, armor tanking, shield tanking, navigation, drones Drama queen. We don't need navigation? Yeah i'm sure all amarr players have nav skills at lvl 1 I have them at 5 and i'm as Amarr as you get. I'm sure they also don't fly interceptors or HACs or hell, any ship You take your Amarr whining a bit too far at times ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:47:00 - [49] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/10/2005 11:31:35 Originally by: Meridius It sucks Weirda. With the Eagle tanking just as good next patch there really will be no reason to fly one. Unless of course tackling with a 100m ship does it for you You're right in that the sacrilege is relegated to basically being a tackler in fleets (where focused, long-range fire and damage output is king), but what's being overlooked is its value as a solo PvP ship - it's extremely hard to kill and can tank most opponents to a faretheewell. I've run into a number of zealots and sacrileges flying solo, and I honestly fear the sacrilege more than the zealot in a one-on-one situation; I know I can break a zealot's tank and take it out, but breaking a sacrilege's tank can very iffy if the ship you're flying doesn't have nos. Yeah sorry as a solo pvpist i'm not going to step foot into a Sacrilege. It's good at 1 on 1s but are those common? Chances are when you do find someone alone he'll have buddies near by, the longer you shoot peas at him with a Sacrilege the more time his buds have to jump in and wtfpwn you. Getting the job done fast is the best way to do solo business. You can never be sure what lies beyond the gate you're fighting at (well you can be but thats not solo :]) ________________________________________________________
TheSoul	Posted - 2005.10.31 12:29:00 - [50] most if not all fights = more than 1 ship focus firing on 1 target, = alot of dmg per second therefor an eagle with sac like resistances for shields + cap injector + large shield booster = win The eagle is uber at sniping frigs/crusiers. The Sac isnt good at anything. Only good thing about the sac is that its cheaper than the other hacs, and that is because it just cant compare to the other hacs. Hybrids are never good at anything, eg. if you put a heat sink on, it wont boost launchers, if you dont use launchers, you wont make use of the ship bonus. If you fit a balistic control, and dont use lazers, same thing. Doesnt matter what you do to the sac, there will be another HAC which does the job better, which is the whole problem, we want the SAC to be good at something. We dont want the sac to be a better sniper than an eagle, or a better missle boat than the cerb, we just want it to be good something !!!
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.10.31 12:36:00 - [51] Alrighty. Kinda makes sense. So the Sac needs a niche, but the question is: "What niche can it fill that hasn't already been filled?" (BTW, the Cerb has the same problem in that it's not good at any one thing but half-asses everything.) -Wrayeth
Oberon Oblique	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:06:00 - [52] Sac missile bonus is the suk. +1 Turret Drop the missile rof bonus Add 1 bonus from below: 1) Nos/Neut and Web 10% opt per lvl 2) Web and Scram 10% opt per lvl 3) 5% bonus to armor repaired per lvl 4) 10% to Nos/Nuet range and effectiveness per lvl 5) Anything useful please. -The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh...
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:07:00 - [53] Oh man. You just made the Sac look worse than an Eagle... recycles Sacrilege
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:25:00 - [54] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nafri Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. Caldari: Rails, missles, shield tanking, EW Amarr: Lasers, armor tanking Gallente: Hybdrids, armor tanking, drones, navigation Matari: Projectiles, missles, armor tanking, shield tanking, navigation, drones Drama queen. We don't need navigation? Yeah i'm sure all amarr players have nav skills at lvl 1 I have them at 5 and i'm as Amarr as you get. I'm sure they also don't fly interceptors or HACs or hell, any ship You take your Amarr whining a bit too far at times Amarr have no close range ships like Autopest/Blasterthron, also the stabber/thorax are dedicated close range ships relying on their speed. Neither Caldari nor Amarr have dedicated ships/guns based on a mwd. Ceptors/frigs are a generally thing, but you can fly a ceptor with 800k navigation easily, where to get the best out of your blasterthron you better have 1.5million in navigation. I simply stated the skills you need to be effective in your race, and Geddons dont need mwd... So Mreidius, any thing you have to say? Or did I win this again, cause you have no point.. again? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Marskalkur	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. maxed out on 15mil sp? what are you talking about dude? I got about 14mil in gunnery alone and can only fire energy weapons and I'm not yet maxed out! the only thing I can see a gallente pilot want to train that a amarr pilot might get away without is high speed manouvering lvl5 and and drone interfacing lvl5
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.31 23:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nafri Originally by: ParMizaN the missile bonus makes it a complete **** for amarr skllec characters.. few people (including me) are going to train missile skills just for the sacrilege. It needs some more turret focused (or some other?) bonuses and an extra turret slot. here really isnt much point in it having more shield than armour either. Damn khanid Well I think point of tech2 is that everybody has to train more skills, amarr were just very lucky wiht tech 1, where 15million SP was enough to be nearly maxed out. Caldari: Rails, missles, shield tanking, EW Amarr: Lasers, armor tanking Gallente: Hybdrids, armor tanking, drones, navigation Matari: Projectiles, missles, armor tanking, shield tanking, navigation, drones Drama queen. We don't need navigation? Yeah i'm sure all amarr players have nav skills at lvl 1 I have them at 5 and i'm as Amarr as you get. I'm sure they also don't fly interceptors or HACs or hell, any ship You take your Amarr whining a bit too far at times Amarr have no close range ships like Autopest/Blasterthron, also the stabber/thorax are dedicated close range ships relying on their speed. Neither Caldari nor Amarr have dedicated ships/guns based on a mwd. Ceptors/frigs are a generally thing, but you can fly a ceptor with 800k navigation easily, where to get the best out of your blasterthron you better have 1.5million in navigation. I simply stated the skills you need to be effective in your race, and Geddons dont need mwd... So Mreidius, any thing you have to say? Or did I win this again, cause you have no point.. again? God you're thick. Amarr inties need top nav skills, have anything less and you lose a cruical edge. The Zealot needs top nav skills, 10km with MF is close range. The Omen needs it with pulses, so does the Maller. Hell even people who tackle with the Sacrilege need top nav skill as it's not exactly a speedy ship. Dictating range is crucial for any race, not just yours. I guess i could also use your own illogical logic and say that Amarr need top cap skills because it's more important for us to use that to our advantage. Then again, i don't want to stoop down to your level ________________________________________________________
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.31 23:49:00 - [57] mhh, right thats a point meredius :), well we can agree that navigation is cruicial for all execpt caldari and engineering for just everyone :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subscription canceled
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.11.01 00:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/10/2005 11:31:35 Originally by: Meridius It sucks Weirda. With the Eagle tanking just as good next patch there really will be no reason to fly one. Unless of course tackling with a 100m ship does it for you You're right in that the sacrilege is relegated to basically being a tackler in fleets (where focused, long-range fire and damage output is king), but what's being overlooked is its value as a solo PvP ship - it's extremely hard to kill and can tank most opponents to a faretheewell. I've run into a number of zealots and sacrileges flying solo, and I honestly fear the sacrilege more than the zealot in a one-on-one situation; I know I can break a zealot's tank and take it out, but breaking a sacrilege's tank can very iffy if the ship you're flying doesn't have nos. Yeah sorry as a solo pvpist i'm not going to step foot into a Sacrilege. It's good at 1 on 1s but are those common? Chances are when you do find someone alone he'll have buddies near by, the longer you shoot peas at him with a Sacrilege the more time his buds have to jump in and wtfpwn you. Getting the job done fast is the best way to do solo business. You can never be sure what lies beyond the gate you're fighting at (well you can be but thats not solo :]) Exactly. The Sac shines in a GROUP of HAC's. Just because a ship isn't useful solo does not mean that it is NOT useful. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Meridius	Posted - 2005.11.01 00:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Maya Rkell Exactly. The Sac shines in a GROUP of HAC's. Just because a ship isn't useful solo does not mean that it is NOT useful. Why does it shine in a group? The Ishtar can do a much better job of tackling and still do almost 4x the damage of a Sacrilege. The Isthar is also 8.5% faster and 8% lighter which make it considerably faster. These facts all make it much better tackler. If that were not enough they also have the exact same armor hitpoints The logical way to think about it would be, if you were running a gang what would you want more of, Ishtars of Sacs? I know i'd pick Ishtars hands down because of all the points i mentioned above. ________________________________________________________
Baun	Posted - 2005.11.01 00:30:00 - [60] 1. - Shield + Armor 2. Nosferatu Bonus 3. Decent drone bay The Enemy's Gate is Down
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.11.01 00:51:00 - [61] I like the SAC as it is. It makes a great L3 and L4 mission runner. In L4 I use it to clear spawns of interceptors before I come back with an Armaggedon or Zealot for ultimate damage. The SAC is what it is. An Amarr-Caldari hybrid. It suits me fine because I am trained in both. I got good missile skills to back me up and my SAC got 3 heavy or assault launchers changed for the occasion. I don't need the Sac to be a sniper. You have the Eagle for that. I don't need the Sac to get nos bonuses. This is Khanid ship and not a Blood Raider ship and get yourself an Asimmu for that. This is also better left for the upcoming Tech 2 Arbitrator hull. I don't need the Sac to be a laser damage dealing ship. You got the Zealot for that and any less damage than the Zealot you would ruin the ship even more. You simply cannot have two ships of the same race occupying the same role niche. I don't want the Sac to get any form of tackler bonuses. This is a HAC for goodness sakes. This is a class of gun and missile ships. Tackler bonuses should go to a new class of tech 2 cruiser, for which we are still waiting (Arbitrator, Bellicose, Blackbird and Celestis). As for Eagle vs. Sacrilege comparisons, please note that Heavy Beams get better tracking than rails. That makes them more versatile from a standpoint and would consistently getter better hits against moving targets. Pulses are also a good option, they still got far more range versatility than blasters. When you factor the missile ROF bonus, I'm not sure where the Eagle gets better damage. As for the tanking for cap and recharge reasons I prefer armor tanking than shield boosting, as it draws less cap and I can rely on relays than cap rechargers. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Flipidy Floo	Posted - 2005.11.01 02:59:00 - [62] OK, all I know is I had less respect for a Sac til I took down a Vaga/Moa combo solo with it, then I fell in love with it. It really is so very versitile, you just can't expect straight up beam damage. I will say though, it does have a nice long range setup with 4 T2 heavy beams. And best part is, it can still defend against inties while doing it.
Nimbu	Posted - 2005.11.01 16:05:00 - [63] Owning both the Eagle and the Sac, the Sac imo does fare a little better. However she still seems to be lacking. The Zealot being the mini geddon, and I suppose we are expecting the Sac to be a mini apoc (Reminds me more of a mini nightmare instead.)In order to make it more of a mini apoc my personal opinion would be to add another turret slot. Right now there is no happy inbetween to gank/tank setup. 99% of the above is said in RP. The Other 1% is personal, and should be taken that way. :P

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