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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.11.01 02:59:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Caerleus
Why not go the whole hog CCP and make each race a single damage type..:(
I think they should just make each ship have a 5% bonus to whatever damage type their race is. So if you throw a medium beam on a thorax w/cruiser 5 you get a 25% bonus on the thermal component of the damage (so no bonus on radio crystals).
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prsr
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:11:00 -
[182]
Well, seems there's a lot of opinions. 
While the droneboats are pretty well balanced at the moment, one has to wonder how well they will be balanced with the ewar drones introduced if the number of drones they can control stays the same without restrictions on how many types it can deploy at the same time. I can see a Dominix wipe out a frigfleet using 5 webbing drones, 5 neutralizer drones, 5 target painter drones and small/medium guns in his high slots combined with a nice tank. But tbh thats just speculation until we see it on the test server.
People that try to compare this with the missile "nerf" really need to check themselves, missiles on battleships were widely acknowledged to be overpowered against small ships and way to low in skill requirements. Anyone remember one month old mission runners blasting the crap out of level 4's solo with barely 2m skillpoints in their ravens? That was taken care of very well and missiles are much more in line with turret performance, imo they are still overpowered in bs vs bs situations but thats another topic obviously.
Now drones aren't perfect either at the moment both in terms of the skilltree and the lag they induce. Changes are needed but what has been presented on the table now does not even come close to something the playerbase can reach a consensus on (other then it nerfing the crap out of droneboats for no apparent reason).
Speaking of this change and reducing lag by drones, someone else mentioned this already in the thread, every ship that has a dronebay will likely start to use the ewar drones and try to gain the function of another midslot that way. It seems unlikely that the total number of drones used in combat will go down with the introduction of the changes as they are now.
It would be nice if CCP could acknowledge the issues raised by the players here and see if they can get something running on the testserver that adresses some of the issues that surfaced here. Maybe introduce limited number of combinations of certain types of ewar and combat drones, reconsider the idea behind the single damagetype bonus for droneboats and work with that.
It's been done before.
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Tovarishch
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:14:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Fellhand
Originally by: sonofollo
well it looks like CCP are going to push through with this change so lets just pile them with ideas on how to make these new drones work.
Why bother? It's not like they listen to us anyway...
This is true... trust me. They asked for non-paid players to provide solid numbers that missiles truly are below average... and we did.
Have they fixed them or announced that they plan to?
No.
PS. This drone nerf is a boost in disguise. Drones are going to be even better in the future.
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Fellhand
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:19:00 -
[184]
I'm starting to believe that the devs have a "screw you" turn of mind. They announce a change, we point out that it's a ******* awful idea and they persist in pushing it through out of sheer bloody-mindedness.
I've yet to work out if this is ego, stubborness or tha fact that the devs haven't grasped that the fact we pay to play means the game isn't their personal playground anymore.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
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wilson 2shoes
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:24:00 -
[185]
Would of been nice if these new drone types/changes are added into the game, firstly after they have fixed the current drones, without nerfing all ships drone bays, without nerfing max drones in space to 5 and without making dedicated drone ships over powered.
I personally trained gallente to use lots of drones 15 infact(currently 14), dont think ill bother with the extra 20 somin days now. Changing a rank 5 skill bonus's sucks big time imo, adding some so have have the choice to train it would be better, but i suppose this has been all thought through REALLY carefully!
Id prefer to have drones the way they are on my ishtar than with these new proposed changes bar one extra command LOOT, but thats just me. I did like the idear of new drone types before this completly wacky dev blog.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:50:00 -
[186]
The new drone types are the worst thing about it.
Dedicated droneships may be able to retain their damage, but they will still totaly suck since they won't be better at using the special drones then everyone else, and on top of that - if they rely on drones for damage and not their regular ship they can't suplement their combat strategy with the new drones anyways.
Basicly everyone who didn't use their dronebay before can turn it into free medslots, everyone who did has nothing to gain from the new drones.
That just sucks, droneships get totally screwed by this, and if it happens I'm gonna quit the game. I've been using a Dominix for more then a year now, even before it was the flavor of the month, and now it gets totally killed by a stupid change like that...
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Kyguard
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:51:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Kyguard on 01/11/2005 03:51:25
This is definitely not Tux's fault. While we are blaming him for these absurd changes, someone else is behind this.
The idiot who charged him with this task is to blame, tux did a good job (better than most devs imo) in presenting his data with numbers and not just fancy words.
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God is on the side with the best artillery |
Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.11.01 03:59:00 -
[188]
Hey Sir_Tux, how about next time remove race specific bonuses for anyone not of that race. You know, only Amarr get ship bonus for any Amarr ship. Same for Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar. Not of the race, no bonus.......
Ok, now that I have everyone angry at me instead of you, let's talk. Yeah, this project has opened a real can of grief amongst the players. Now, I can sort of agree to the special bonus by race for damage type, just like missiles. I also see these changes doing to drones what the missile changes did for missile users. More skills to buy, at a great cost, just to be where you were before the changes. Believe me, as a Minmatar, I need all of those skills as we use projectiles, missiles and drones.
Not being a specialist race means we Minmatar have to spend a huge sum of ISK for all these special skills to stay as a peer in this game. It's rough. However, I am here now to ask that drone bays NOT be halved. I think this one point is the main focal point of most of the dissention. What is a Domi without a swarm of drones, an expensive target, that's what. Now I understand that they will be tougher and do more damage, however with only half the number in the air, they are also easier to target and destroy.
I for one will feel really dumb coming at you with my Stabber and unleashing my single medium scout drone on you, yeah, one drone. Wow. Leave the drone bay alone, or at least add a bonus for Gallente to the number of drones per skill level. Drones are, after all their main thing.
And can you people do me a favor? STOP with ALL the specialist friggin skills already. Not everyone is rolling in the ISK and it's really punishing we Minmatar who need to train almost everything.Because unlike the Amarr, we don't have an 8 turret BS, unlike the Caldari, we don't have a missile boat, and unlike the Gallente, we don't have a drone carrier. You have designed our ships to use everything, and with all these new skills being added, you people are really giving we Minmatar the worst deal ever. We have the worst tracking, the least used ships in the game, and now we get to pay three times for specialist skills to remain under par with everyone else.
Thank you for your attention
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:19:00 -
[189]
either that or if u are going to push ahead with new drones give them a great resistance to smartbombs. Or nerf smartbombs as well.
Make them harder to track. Or perhaps limite ach player to 2 specialised drones in space at ocne and leave the scouts and medium scount drones as they are a bit weaker but more numberous
Or go for the middle ground 10 drones maxiumum for the dominix and thorax (double nerf with the mk2 changes) but if the others are going to be at 5 drones max then give us a dominix and thorax per skill level of cruiser nad battleship they get one additional drone in space up to 5 more which is a total of 10 perhaps with limits on the specialised drones
While youre at it boost the dominixes NOS ability sa it will be helpful in NPC these new NOSing NPCs (blood raiders)
And perhaps give the minmatar a small boost up to 7 drones so they dont feel left out
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Claude Leon
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:24:00 -
[190]
Hey Tux, how about you make Mrs.Piggy the head of CCP? Your making just a bad moving by doing these drone changes. For the last time alot of issues with lag are due to slow computers. People need to realise this and CCP does as well. Stop destroying the game and work on issues that need to be fixed. Like, um the fast paced combat. Argh!
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Balsak
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:25:00 -
[191]
Well I wasn't going to bother posting on this subject but I will anyways.
First off people keep your personal insults towards CCP's staff to yourself. It does nothing but make you look like a spoiled little kid whos crying cause he's not getting his way.
Ive been around this game now since the beginning and with every big change its always the same crap from people.
"Don't do this or everyone will leave."
"We're the paying customer and screw you CCP if you don't listen to me."
"Wah why is my race so picked on ?"
This is and always will be CCP's game to make the way they want to. Its always been that way and I for one hope it always does. Sorry customers but you don't know half of what you think you know. Just cause you are paying money out doesnt mean you are right or even close to it. It just means you are a paying customer with the right to stop paying and go elsewhere.
Personally i'm just gonna wait for these changes and learn to use them to my advantage instead of whining and crying about how my game is gonna suck.
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Fellhand
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:43:00 -
[192]
And yet, apparently, unlike the paying consumer of every other product in the history of the world, we have no right to voice an opinion when we believe the producers are making a big mistake.
Uncritical adulation is just as bad as unwarranted criticism, perhaps worse.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
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Balsak
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:51:00 -
[193]
Oh you have a right to voice your opinion. Just do so in a reasonable manner.
If you insult someone while stating a possible fact it doesn't matter that what you say is true or not. Just the fact you were an idiot about it matters and that person will now not care about what you have to say.
CCP may be making a mistake and they may not be. You don't know this and neither do I. If you have problems state them with thought out reasons instead of "OMG you suck CCP."
Like i said in previous post, ive been around eve for a long time now and certain things I didnt agree with when announced and even after implemented. But the vast majority of things CCP has done has bettered the game. I see no reason to start thinking that this change will all of a sudden ruin the game.
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Claude Leon
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:53:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Claude Leon on 01/11/2005 04:54:03
Originally by: Balsak
Well I wasn't going to bother posting on this subject but I will anyways.
First off people keep your personal insults towards CCP's staff to yourself. It does nothing but make you look like a spoiled little kid whos crying cause he's not getting his way.
Ive been around this game now since the beginning and with every big change its always the same crap from people.
"Don't do this or everyone will leave."
"We're the paying customer and screw you CCP if you don't listen to me."
"Wah why is my race so picked on ?"
This is and always will be CCP's game to make the way they want to. Its always been that way and I for one hope it always does. Sorry customers but you don't know half of what you think you know. Just cause you are paying money out doesnt mean you are right or even close to it. It just means you are a paying customer with the right to stop paying and go elsewhere.
Personally i'm just gonna wait for these changes and learn to use them to my advantage instead of whining and crying about how my game is gonna suck.
Who the hell are you? I will say anything I want ,thank you very much.
I don't post on this dev blog threads because I am in total agreement but this one is bad at every angle. |
Pheno Xanes
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:05:00 -
[195]
Instead of the generic cookie-cutter Thermal bonus to gallente droneships, why not give them dronebay bonuses so that they can pick and choose which of the new drones they want and make a little arsenal based on them.
A Dom that holds 3 Target painter drones, 3 nos drones, 3 web drones, and 6 ogres all in different folders can customize itself to fights in an interesting way within the boundaries of the 5 drone limit.
PS what happens to the Ishkur in all of this?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:06:00 -
[196]
keep the current numbers with the new drone suggestions... just introduce more effective countermeansures to their effects (ie. make ECCM actually work, also have remote stealth drones/remote eccm drones/remote tracking enhancer drones to counter the effect of ECM drones. Introduce new commands, ie BARCAP / TARCAP (barrier combat air patrol/target air patrol). Make light drones take out heavies easily. However their ineffective for taking on ships. My drones should be able to independently intercept their drones/missiles while in barcap mode.
Btw... moros with 5 drones vs 35? can you say ahahahhahahaha nerfed?
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Shiner BockBeer
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:17:00 -
[197]
Problems reading devblog, anyone else seeing this?
Same problem in Mozilla and IE.
I click the Devblog link, I get the new window with the login prompt. I login, I click the Devblog link again, I get the login page again.
This happens no matter how I try to get to it.
I can login to charsheet, forums, and Eve insider no problems, just not Devblog.
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The Resister
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:18:00 -
[198]
Note to devs, yeah you may be able to "work" around some problems with lag because of drones but sooner or later you'll have to fix the problem because it will never go away.
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The Resister
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:22:00 -
[199]
Oh and before I forget, since ishtars and doms are going to be useless, give the ishtar and dom an extra turret slot with more pg and cpu so maybe we can still use these ships.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:25:00 -
[200]
yes seeing as though u are nerfing a specific drone carrier change the domi / ishtar role to being a more NOS specific role and or give it a boost like the brutix in fleet command or a % boost to remote armo tanking
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Fillmeup
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:30:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Fillmeup on 01/11/2005 05:32:57
Ok .... I am anticipating a massive backlash on this idea.
Effectively, as many have said, those who currently don't use drone bays will be advantaged, whilst those who rely on drones are left static or worse off than before. Especially considering the need to train a buttload of skills to maintain effectiveness.
I like the new drones. I even don't mind the new skills. However, screwing over the drone boats to solve lag issues is not cool ... repeat .... NOT COOL!
This idea seems like someone did an analysis of server load and said - 'you know what, if we screw over drone users lag will decrease 4% ... ya, lets do that'. I mean WTF?!?
Drones are one of the things that are not unbalanced atm. No one complains about them (which is a feat for the devs in itself), and I understand that the new drones may introduce disharmony. However, leave a bonus for the Gallente drone boats (like thorax and domi)- they are already about to be nerfed (plate nerf anyone), lets not take away the only thing that makes them special ...
Mot a happy camper ....
Oh, and I didn't even consider the effect it has on the Gallente Moros or the new carriers .... this will just make both ships useless.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.11.01 05:52:00 -
[202]
I've had multiple arguments about these changes and no one has been able to give me any true complaint except for the damage specification of thermal bonus for gallente ships and EM for the amarr etc.
I have a person who is gallente mastered, all relevant gunery, drones, support and frig through battleship at 5. His concern was that the flavor of Gallente would be lost, that the dominix would be no different.
But honestly look at this.
Battleship - current m3 - after 50% - # of heavies
Apoc - 150 - 75 - 3 (that's 3 heavies in total not even 1 full set)
Arma - 250 - 125 - 5 (there's one full salvo of heavies no reserve)
temp - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc
typh - 350 - 175 - 7 (That's 1 salvo and 2 heavies in reserve )
rave - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc/temp)
scor - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc, temp and raven)
mega - 250 - 125 - 5 (one salvo no reserver)
domi - 750 - 375 - 15 (3 full salvos of drones)
The gallente consistently have an advantage in heavy drone warfare. Coupled with the domix havin ga potency increase making their 5 not just replenishable but very dangerous.
Include in that sentry droens will probably be heavy in size the dominix will have a clear advantage in flexible planning.
For those who worry about gallente it seems evident above they will retain a good advantage if not pick up one.
For everyone else. The combination of utiltity drone types of varios kinds and the ability for them to sustain greater damage and deal it means less of a chance of total drone loss. Honestly who wants to fly an ishtar with 15 heavies that looses them in one potential smart bomb. When they could carry 5 heavies with the same power and a reserve 5 after the changes and send them into battle with potentially less losses and backup.
in the end all I have to say is.
SENTRY DRONES
for the love of god it's a defense advantage. we need more of these. Defense should have the advantage and they don't in this game. We need more ways for people to hold space like this and I don't mean when not logged on. I mean ways to promote less warp in and snipe. Sentry drones should take 15-20 seconds to anchor/unanchor.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.11.01 06:26:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 06:27:38
Originally by: Mercade
for the love of god it's a defense advantage. we need more of these. Defense should have the advantage and they don't in this game. We need more ways for people to hold space like this and I don't mean when not logged on. I mean ways to promote less warp in and snipe. Sentry drones should take 15-20 seconds to anchor/unanchor.
How is that good? A "defense advantage" is really also a gatecamping advantage...
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Spenz
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Posted - 2005.11.01 06:27:00 -
[204]
Mercade. First of all who complained about drones before? Nobody. The only complaint about drones was their stupid broken AI that wouldnt allow them to dock or go off on their own. Other than that there were no "OMG N3RF DR0NZ" or "DR0NZ RUIN DA GAM3" or "DRONES ARE AN 'I WIN' BUTTON!"
Now where in that dev blog do they say they are going to fix the drones ONLY problem? Nowhere. They are ruining a perfectly good setup. Drones were FINE. They were reasonably balanced compared to other things. Now not only are they adding drones that are useful to the gankers and useless to the drone users, but they are rendering 50% of the Gallente heavy fleet useless. WTF is gonna happen to the Vexor, Ishkur, Dominix, and Moros? Drones were their PRIMARY weapon, and I can tell you 5 drones will die easier than 15, no matter how beefed up they are. Why? You can target 5 drones. You CANT target 15, and smartbombs will kill 5 beefed up drones as fast as 15 regulars.
And the drone bay nerf...WTF?!! Do they realize they are rendering the drone capabilities of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and even some BS's utterly impotent.
And what about the poor people that spent months on Drone 5,Drone Interface 5, Heavy drone 5, Frigate 5, Cruiser 5, Battleship 5, and even Dreadnought 5 to use alot of drones? What about them huh? Oooh they get a thermal damage bonus whoop-de-do. They get a bonus on the easiest-to-tank damage type.
And why in gods holy name do you think sentry drones are a good idea? Are you some sort of gate-camping mofo? Its not like its bad enough now you have DRONES able to do it too. Sure from a fleet perspective its sound (though it will be even more laggy now that it was before), but from regular people that have to encounter gate-gankers it is a stupid idea. REALLY stupid.
Quit licking CCP's boots and take a better look at this change. It is wrong in every sense of the word. Utterly killing a perfectly fine game element and destroying the gallente (along with the hard work of ALOT of people) is NOT a game improvement. This is far beyond the missile nerf (which is gonna be fixed anyways). This is a totally illogical, half-thought and half-assed set up ideas that will wreck the game for alot of people.
That is simply the facts. You cant get around it no matter how many times you look at it.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.11.01 06:39:00 -
[205]
Cooooo-rect! Introducing long range sentry drones that can give you extra gank-power in fleet combat will make lag worse, not better, since drones were mostly used in small engagements, not large fleetbattles so far.
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Agama
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Posted - 2005.11.01 07:18:00 -
[206]
This is crazy. At first I was happy with the dev blog right up until the point of reducing drone bays, putting a hard cap of 5 max drones and completely changing skills.
I mean what is with that?
As mentioned heaps of times already.... non-drone boats will get the most benefit from this change (read nerf). With only 5 drones as a PRIMARY weapon sysytem the drone boats will be forced to use those 5 drones for damage and thats it. Where as other ships will be able to compliment their weapon systems with extra webbers etc. It would be very cool if people were still able to use there 12+ drones on the larger drone boats as they could mix up there offence with these new EW drones and have a bit of fun.
Not to mention some ships not have laughable drone bays now.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed but the poor ol rax gets a double helping with the new changes between the mk2 project (drone bay now 100m^3) but with the new proposed drone changes that will come down to 50m^3. Dont get me wrong the rax needed to be knocked down a bit cause it was a bit insane.....but have fun with those 2x heavies or 5x medium drones now boys.
Sentry dronesą.can you say more gate ganks?
Changing skills completely is nuts. And what is the point of training heavy drones up now for a 5% damage when interfacing gives your 20%?
Personally I think the reasoning for this is so lame. LAG. C'mon.... that is pathetic. ItĘs not game balance or anything like that....its lag. Well....throw some more money at it and fix it properly. Upgrade the servers etc (I know this is already planned....but maybe you need more again). Buy more servers and spread the systems out a bit more for better load balancing. This is one hell of a great game but nerfing a system that was largely fine (except some AI/drone humping issues) under the guise of system efficiency is madness.
I cannot fully express my frustration at this very silly looking move so please excuse my rambling.
'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
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Qin Yu
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Posted - 2005.11.01 07:33:00 -
[207]
Oh well apart from telling CCP this is a stupid idea and after my initial frustration. Here are some positive ideas.
Sentry Drones WILL be employed at gates to gank so 5 ships dropping 5 sentries at the gates means 25 drones shooting at gates and if they're left then that's 25 drones around the gates causing lag for everyone.
The numbers on some of those figures are wrong, all 5 drones all kitted with the same equipment MAY equate to 1 med slot... Im sorry this is just stupid, people will just use 5 of one type so there will be no variance.
Suggestion 1. Have drones come in "fleets" of 5 represented by 1 drone model in space. You can order the groups to do seperate things but not individual drones IN those groups. With 15 drones for example you can attack three seperate targets etc etc... For odd numbers of drone controls just fill up these three fleets until they're each at 5. Will be difficult to sort out individual damage but why not just assign 1 fleet 1 set of Shields/Armour/Hull..
Suggestion 2.
Fix you're own damn hardware before modding the game to "solve" these issues.
Suggestion 3.
STOP with the stupid module/race balancing.. Has it occured to anyone that this Universe MAY have races with a technological advantage in certain areas. Their guns MIGHT be the best in the game, but other races WILL and do have to use other tech they're specialised in to beat that technology.
Suggestion 4.
DONT you dare add tractor beams to this GAME!!
Use drones for this, lootfetcher drones... everyone wants them. Dont **** around with a high slot module that nobody is going to use because it cuts down their PVE effectiveness.. Stupidity.. This is what DRONES are for..
Suggestion 5.
Repper and cap recharger drones are ok, I'd suggest leaving EWAR out of drone usage.. Instead concentrate on other tactical bonuses that drones can do.. How about when drones are orbitting your ships they act like defender missiles and/or defence against attacking drones... About time we had some good defensive units considering Defender missiles dont work anyway. I just want to send my drones to be able to defend a friendly target.
Suggestion 6.
I spent 4 months and nearly 5 million skill points training Drone skills for the EXCLUSIVE purpose of being able to use Drone ships to their maximum potential. If CCP want to change the skills to something else then I WANT my skill points back and into something else... I wouldnt of trained them at all if I'd known this would of happened.. Three months of free skill points please....
Regards
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Itisusia
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Posted - 2005.11.01 07:46:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Latex Mistress
I'd like all the SP's I have in drones back please. You may distribute them evenly between Gunnery and Spaceship Command.
Thanks,
LM
Me too please!
Utterly retarded change. I sure hope you're going to do something about blobs causing lag then too. "Due to the nature of blobs half your ships will be removed and the rest doubled in hp / damage. Problem solved guys!" |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.11.01 07:50:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Qin Yu
Suggestion 4.
DONT you dare add tractor beams to this GAME!!
Use drones for this, lootfetcher drones... everyone wants them. Dont **** around with a high slot module that nobody is going to use because it cuts down their PVE effectiveness.. Stupidity.. This is what DRONES are for..
That entire argument doesn't make any sense. You say introducing a highslot module for loot retrival is stupid because people don't want to give up their highslots, but drone users should give up their drones to get loot faster?
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes this change so annoying and crippling to the droneships, just because most people don't use their dronebay nice toys are added that can go in it, but people who do use their dronebay don't get to use them because they already have combat drones in it...
Hey, maybe CCP can give my Dominix 8 meslots, to make up for the 5 ewar drones I can't launch because I needed to use my dronebay for damage dealing. Yea, I'd acctually go with that, if my Dominix gets 8 meslots I accept the changes.
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Prydeless
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Posted - 2005.11.01 07:58:00 -
[210]
If this is a lag issue why not just blow all the cans in the universe that are anchored 
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