| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
|
kieron
   |
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:10:00 -
[1]
Drones! Love them or hate them, they are an integral part of EVE and one with much emotional attachment. Whether you pilot a drone boat or have been the recipient of their attention, nearly everyone has had some interaction with drones. However, the system behind drones, and the drones themselves, are a bit outdated.
Sir Tuxford has a new Dev Blog on drones. Some old friends are going through some changes, some new friends are coming, and even some new skills to work with the growing drone family.
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
|
|
Edge1
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:11:00 -
[2]
\o/ first
/me goes to read the blog
|
Trespasser
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:13:00 -
[3]
2nd \o/
|
David Corbett
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:14:00 -
[4]
SENTRY DRONES?
|
MickeyFinn
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:15:00 -
[5]
The Artist Formely Known As Wishdokkta
Website of certain doom! |
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:19:00 -
[6]
Sniff 
My poor Arbitrator will noly be able to control a maximum of five drones.
Oh well, it was good while it lasted...
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
teqNo
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:24:00 -
[7]
That's...quite a change. 
|
Bazman
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:26:00 -
[8]
I like everything except the Gallente drone thermal damage bonus.
coooome on, as if there is any reason to use thermal drones, they are the most useless of the whole lot. A damage bonus should cover all the drones
|
Antoinette Civari
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:28:00 -
[9]
sentry drones : gate camper's best friend 
besides that it sounds good tho.
|
David Corbett
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:29:00 -
[10]
Yep, everything except the Gallente thermal bonus... that stinks :(
|
Burlock Ironfist
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:30:00 -
[11]
Seems good to me nothing more annoying than getting loads of lag as people launch 10 drones each .....
Registered Carebear and Mining Barge Enthusiast. |
Xaeon
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:33:00 -
[12]
Love the ideas tbh, shame the sents in 0.4 and less hate them >.<
I suppose the most obvious question is when will we see them? Weeks? Months? Years? (lol)
I just hope that it doesn't ruin some ship roles. I.e. having drones from one ship dampening the hell out of the other leaving the slots for tackling / tanking and ganking.
Both a good and bad thing for small ships though...
Being able to web the little buggers from a distance will be useful from the pov of a battleship pilot, especially if these stack up. Even if they don't a selection of the new drones could make a small ship useless quickly. I.e neut / painter / web. I assume therefore the EWAR drones will be fairly sluggish?
It does mean that some smaller ships can worry about stacking up the scrams though, which helps with the stab probs.
The only other concern is that it's like giving drone-carrying frigs another mid slot.
Just some thoughts.
|
Demon Johnson
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:34:00 -
[13]
Same here: Like it all exept gallente having to stick to thermal. 
Because also the amarr have no chance to select the damagetype, all will just tank against thermal. One hardener to rule them all!
Old man says:
You donŠt win a war with hundreds of TL2 items. You win it with millions of tritanium and pyrite.
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:35:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: David Corbett
Yep, everything except the Gallente thermal bonus... that stinks :(
No more than the Amarrian EM bonus.
Still, it's to be expected considering that missile damage bonuses generally only apply to a single damage type.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Derron Bel
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Derron Bel on 31/10/2005 14:37:34
i understand the changes, but i really like having 12 drones whizz by the camera to attack the enemy..oh well!
Lol sable, the Thorax still has more drone bay than any non drone specialist ship of its size... Don't be silly
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
sableye
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:36:00 -
[16]
also you will have to look into shisp liek thorax which already is getting one drone bay nerf this nerf will mean its drones will almost be useless.
NORAD Is Recruiting Corps Now |
Balthamael
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:37:00 -
[17]
I think this is very interesting.. exept the part of only bonus to thermal damage, which others have pointed out aswell.
"The GM might tell you to jam it where the drives don't warp"
drunkenmaster |
Khaldorn Murino
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:42:00 -
[18]
Minmatar sentries worry me.
They all have poor tracking. But we have the poorest and then the secound lowest damage. But can hit the furthest. :(
So that basically will equate to the lowest damage as you wont be hitting much with the poor tracking?
-
Just a simple warrior.
|
sableye
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Derron Bel
Edited by: Derron Bel on 31/10/2005 14:37:34
i understand the changes, but i really like having 12 drones whizz by the camera to attack the enemy..oh well!
Lol sable, the Thorax still has more drone bay than any non drone specialist ship of its size... Don't be silly
it also has less slots
NORAD Is Recruiting Corps Now |
Traxio Nacho
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:49:00 -
[20]
So in other words you cant solve the problem of drones causing lag so your just cutting the number down to solve this problem?
No offence but this is a **** idea and is something that doesnt need to be nerfed 
|
Hoshi
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:50:00 -
[21]
The Gallante Thermal bonus is the same as the Caldari Kinetic only bonus to missiles, and yes both of them stink.
|
Exioce
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:51:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Exioce on 31/10/2005 14:55:05
i really think the idea of cutting down on drone spam, unless you have a drone specialised ship. gg Tuxford, get that Drone Interfacing change done asap 
EDIT - wait, wait , wait - if the drone you like has no thermal damage, what good will giving a thermal damage bonus be? zero multiplied by 10% is still zero
|
Omber Zombie
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:51:00 -
[23]
i like the changes except the domi...
yes, i know you want less drones, but it's meant to be a drone monster ship which will now be only able to launch 5...
sure it gets a therm bonus, but hardly anyone uses therm drones...
-----------
blog |
Dark Shikari
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:53:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 14:53:55
There is a serious problem with these changes.
The first thing is that it forces Gallente into thermal damage.
The second is that it completely ruins the idea of drones as a primary weapon system. Now they're just going to be a secondary system. Restricting setups to cookie-cutter ideas is a bad thing.
BTW the Ishtar's price just fell to 60 million, and the value of thermal T2 drone BPOs just went up by about 50 times.
-
Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
|
Sarkos
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:57:00 -
[25]
With all of the influence from the Gallente, I am amazed that the Minmatar do not have a drone ship. Either the Bellicose cruiser or Typhoon class battle ship are excellent choices.
Giving the Typhoon, which already has a large drone bay, some of these special abilities would enhance it greatly and make it a far more desirable ship to own, and use. It would give the Typhoon a purpose, something it currently does not possess.
We Minmatar need to train for Projectiles, Missiles and Drones already, so it would in fact be a very small issue giving us a drone carrier. It also makes a lot more sense then the Amarr having one.
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
|
Rufus Roughneck
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 14:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Minmatar sentries worry me.
They all have poor tracking. But we have the poorest and then the secound lowest damage. But can hit the furthest. :(
So that basically will equate to the lowest damage as you wont be hitting much with the poor tracking?
Tracking is only relevant as beign part of the damage function. Range is the other part.
You'll simply have to anchor em further away.
|
Derron Bel
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:00:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Derron Bel on 31/10/2005 15:07:15
Sable: Not that it matters, if it can carry 3 medium drones and 2 logistics drones to another ships 5 light drones.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
ChironV
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:05:00 -
[28]
Actually, less dronage means less lagg'age. So thats good.
Now if they could only solve the "umpteenbillion BM's in your hold" warp in and lag the hell out of the enemy.
________________________________________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
|
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:06:00 -
[29]
"This doesn't really sound like nerf at all "
Actually it does. Before I could deal damage with bonuses on 4 damage types in an Ishtar/Dominix, after I only get a bonus on one damage type. Thats a MASSIVE nerf.
|
ParMizaN
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:14:00 -
[30]
Edited by: ParMizaN on 31/10/2005 15:15:17
Very interesting. I like most of them, though i would say some (specifically the sentry, ewar and lights) need a little bit of consideration.
The domi is getting hit a little bit: maybe not as powerful 1v1 as it is now, not really a bad thnig as it is the best 1v1 bs atm and also the cheapest and least SP demanding.
the ishtar is also getting hit a little bit, which will hopeflly bring it into line with (most of) the rest of the hacs 
Just interested to see how the ewar and the sentry drones will work 
Killing the rich and giving to me |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:15:00 -
[31]
:[
|
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: ParMizaN
The domi is getting hit a little bit: maybe not as powerful 1v1 as it is now, not really a bad thnig as it is the best 1v1 bs atm and also the cheapest and least SP demanding.
Uh, some of us use guns on our Dominixes thank you very much.
|
Rawne Karrde
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:26:00 -
[33]
/emote setups his ogre II stand. get yer ogre II's red hot with thermal damage...
|
Sarkos
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:32:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Sarkos on 31/10/2005 15:34:21
I do have a concern about game balance vs EWAR drones. Currently the number of enemy you can lock down is in direct proportion to the number of mid slots available. Now, add to that up to 5 EWAR drones and you have a single ship being able to effectivly neutralize a large number of enemy.
So a vessel with 4 mid slots that can carry 5 EWAR drones can now neutralize 9 enemy ships. Have two of these ships and the number raises to 18 enemy. Imagine a single ship being able to web every one of your Inteceptors and Assault frigates, or jam every sniper BS. In theory it sounds a bit excessive, thus my concern.
If this is the case, we need a far better anti-drone defence than the current Stupid..erm..SmartBombs since Burst ECCM is very innefective.
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
|
Rafein
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:38:00 -
[35]
the only problem I have with the change is we are getting all these new drones, and no one will use them.
Take the Domi for example. It will be only able to use 5 drones, and will get a bonus to thermal damage. So using any drones other than thermal, the new EW drones, ect, included, is going against the ship's bonus. It will not get a bonus to Ew drones, repair drones.
I understand that decreaseing lag is important, and I'm sure drones, in their current incarnation, are one of the big drains, especially during fleet battles. But I don;t think limiting the number of possible drones usable, and then adding more drone variety, is really worthwhile.
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:40:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 14:53:55
There is a serious problem with these changes.
The first thing is that it forces Gallente into thermal damage.
ROFL, last time I checked, I only get a KINETIC missile damage bonus on my Cerberus.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD SIR!
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Derron Bel
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:41:00 -
[37]
It takes more than one mid slot to neutralize another ship, and it will certainly take more than one drone.
Especially if sensor integrity gets fixed or if the other side uses eccm.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
So'Kar
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:48:00 -
[38]
I dont like the idea of having tracking distrupting or ecm (even small one) on drones.
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
:[
:]
[23]
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Derron Bel
It takes more than one mid slot to neutralize another ship, and it will certainly take more than one drone.
Especially if sensor integrity gets fixed or if the other side uses eccm.
Except for the fact that ECCM is worthless.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Nicholai Pestot
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
:[
:]
:|
Some good some bad.I will miss the damage flexibility of my drones, but i believe that flexibility will be compensated for in other areas.
On the whole a 'meh' change
--------------------------------------
I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant |
ParMizaN
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:59:00 -
[42]
as an afterthought:
i forsee thermal drones becoming a lot more expensive also :S
minmatar/amarr spec ftw i suppose.
Oh and when i said elss SP demanding i meant in general: most people use NOS or smaller guns on their domi (for pvp at least)
Killing the rich and giving to me |
prsr
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: prsr on 31/10/2005 16:02:41
I'm getting the feeling people would rather not loose the number of drones they have now. Especially not if only a thermal bonus is given to compensate.
tbh, going up against a domi and seeing him pop all of 5 drones out will just make me laugh at first and cry a bit later. The pure number of drones is much more useful then what drone users are getting back now. 3 damagetypes nerfed and 1 stays as it was. We're talking about a primary offense/defense in the case of a dominix/ishtar/ishkur/vexor, all ships flown by the experts of drones!
Also, if the domi doesn't get to launch more drones then other ships this means its versatility is nerfed even further as well. With 10 or 15 drones you can probably create a truly scary EWAR drone fleet. With 5, your just as predictable as any other battleship and the damage nerf on the drones makes the domi a regular one trick pony.
Oh, and as far as I understand it, the reduction in numbers is just for lag reduction, nobody was complaining about balance in the case of the dominix right? So why mess up balance when fixing lag issues?
|
Derron Bel
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:05:00 -
[44]
just to share an idea:
it would be nice if the ship drone bonuses tacked on that x% damage;
for example, if a gallente ship had a +100% thermal drone bonus, it would add +100% thermal damage.
so if it launched a Warrior drone, the warrior would be doing half explosive and half thermal.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Rafein
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:07:00 -
[45]
One other thought about the Domi, and other +1 drone ships, you are adding a bonus to their damage, but not their survivability, Meaning you get 5 drones, compared to say, a Raven;s 3. But your drones do not last any longer under fire.
Now, comparing a Domi's 15 drones to a Raven's 6, you would have to do 2.5 times the damage to remove the Domi's drones. after the patch, you would only need to do 1.66 times the damage to remove the drones, which is a drastic nerf in survivability.
|
Jim Steele
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:14:00 -
[46]
An aprihensive thumbs up though i really dont think amarr or caldari need less dronespace, its already hard enough to have a decent ammount of drones intow.
I will miss the sight of swarms of drones but i can understand the changes.
Real men, play Rugby |
Rufus Roughneck
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:15:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Rufus Roughneck on 31/10/2005 16:16:34
Originally by: prsr
I'm getting the feeling people would rather not loose the number of drones they have now. Especially not if only a thermal bonus is given to compensate.
tbh, going up against a domi and seeing him pop all of 5 drones out will just make me laugh at first and cry a bit later. The pure number of drones is much more useful then what drone users are getting back now. 3 damagetypes nerfed and 1 stays as it was. We're talking about a primary offense/defense in the case of a dominix/ishtar/ishkur/vexor, all ships flown by the experts of drones!
Also, if the domi doesn't get to launch more drones then other ships this means its versatility is nerfed even further as well. With 10 or 15 drones you can probably create a truly scary EWAR drone fleet. With 5, your just as predictable as any other battleship and the damage nerf on the drones makes the domi a regular one trick pony.
Quite a nice explanation on why this change will change the Domi's role considerably.
The only thing going for the dominix after this will be its ability to have two sets of 5 L drones in it's hold. That is all.
I hope you (CCP) are not suggesting the Domi to rely on only that ability to supply it with a role in combat, but it most certainly seems so.
I mean, it can do the same damage as before with it's drones. Except that the new drones are more easily killed (
Hp's don't have very much to do with that, time spent on killing them has. A large drone with many hitpoints is killed a damn lot faster then 2 large ones with half their hitpoints. We are talking locking time, cycling time of weapons, webbyfiers, etc.
Also, when someone spents his cycles shooting one of your drones, you can get the rest back into your hold so you break his lock on other drones. Decreasing the number of drones negates this advantage partly as well since there's only so many drones he can target currently, but he won't have any issue with picking out the already damaged ones when there's only 5.
Now, the damage type we already discussed, it's a nerf.
The lesser number is an indirect nerf to the domi as well in mnay ways.
The 'new' bonus of having more dronespace is reduced in value (you cant use that dronespace except to carry reserves now, but different damage types is kind of useless when you get 50% more damage on thermals. And since your drones are your primary weapon, you can't very well bank on not losing any and bring some ecm, web or whatever other drones to a fight. That's like expecting people to just bring the ammo in their guns and load up their cargobays with mobile warp disruptors when they go to a fleetfight...
I'd say you need to reconsider your approach tothe drone specialised ships. Maybe a bonus of 10%/lvl to one damage type, but along with a bonus that allows you to use one more utility (=non combat) drone over your normal maximum per level of some skill. That would give drone specialists to use their combat power AND still have some use for advanced drones at the same time.
|
Viggen
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:19:00 -
[48]
Quote by Tuxford:
"What's wrong with the drones we do have?
...... there is no way to for example increase the damage drones do, or their speed or anything really."
Hmm, that mean the Heavy Drone Operation Skill never gave us 5% damage bonus after all??
Anyhow I like the drone number reduced to 5 as the maths does add up to make 5 as effective as 15 with max skills but what about the above skill I mentioned, will that be changed as well or did i miss that bit?
Can see owners of T2 Drone BPO's of damage types other than Thermal being a tad miffed at this hehe (I dont have any BPO btw, just making a point).
Finally I agree with the others here that specialized droneships should have bonus to all damage types. I'm sure I read somewhere that missle ships will get damage bonus to all types soon like 5% or something with Kenetic being 10%. Maybe adapt that to droneships as well to keep the balance thing going?
|
St Dragon
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:29:00 -
[49]
I really like the changes ok you can now only fly 5 drones now but each drone is 3 times as strong now. And with the new skills and modules drone ships will get even stronger.
And i bet gate campers or belt campers will love rthe sentry drones i know i will.
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 14:53:55
There is a serious problem with these changes.
The first thing is that it forces Gallente into thermal damage.
ROFL, last time I checked, I only get a KINETIC missile damage bonus on my Cerberus.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD SIR!
signed, drones get a major buff, and gallante still whine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put your panties on your head! |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:34:00 -
[51]
will drones finally suffer from tracking?
its a bit **** that heavy drones *****all kind of ships...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put your panties on your head! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:52:00 -
[52]
why nerf the size of the drone bay? if you are maxing the number of drones controlled then having more in the bay won't lag and you can keep more in reserve.
but still, my wolf just got even more uber vs anything amarr so I'm happy 
Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
|
prsr
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Nafri
signed, drones get a major buff, and gallante still whine
Major buff? Gallente stop whining  ?
Got to love the people that just sit and wait for peoples responses to a change in the game to reach 2 pages so you can post "stop whining". And leave nothing of interest in the thread at all.
The cerberus didn't get a rof nerf nor did it loose a highslot, so maybe, just maybe, it's got nothing in common here except for ending up with one type of damage bonus. The dominix didn't have nor need a damage bonus before. It's a consequence of trying to tame the lagbeast and ends up messing with balance for no apparent reason.
Thanks for your constructive post. Bye!
|
Dark Shikari
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 16:57:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 16:58:02
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 14:53:55
There is a serious problem with these changes.
The first thing is that it forces Gallente into thermal damage.
ROFL, last time I checked, I only get a KINETIC missile damage bonus on my Cerberus.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD SIR!
And you think I DONT FLY A CERBERUS?
I've been complaining about exactly that for ages 
It'll be even worse though with the Dominix--+20% thermal damage per level means that any other damage type is utterly useless, while with a cerberus you can reasonably use another damage type versus a kinetic-tanked ship...
-
Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
|
Spike Larosse
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:02:00 -
[55]
Sounds fine except for the "nerfing" of possibilities in drone damage selection. I like to rely on EM drones taking down shields, to complement rails.
-------------------------------------------
Proud Member of RSP Enterprises Ltd
Raw Materials Division Chief Executive |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:09:00 -
[56]
That Bonus Change on Gallente ships is the biggest BULL ever!!
What if I don't want to do thermal damage? One of the biggest advantages of drones has always been that you could do whatever damage type you liked, and now there is absoloutly no way for Gallente to do anything but Thermal/Kinetic, and Thermal is the most resisted damage type ever anyways!!
What an idiotic change, at least make it a bonus to all drone damage, and not just thermal!
|
Zaldiri
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:11:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: David Corbett
Yep, everything except the Gallente thermal bonus... that stinks :(
No more than the Amarrian EM bonus.
Still, it's to be expected considering that missile damage bonuses generally only apply to a single damage type.
Amarrian EM bonus, thats even worse...
Seriously there should be no bonusses to a specific damage type for anything, at all.
-----------------------------------------------
Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
|
Zaldiri
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:12:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
ROFL, last time I checked, I only get a KINETIC missile damage bonus on my Cerberus.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD SIR!
That sucks just as much and should be changed.
-----------------------------------------------
Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:13:00 -
[59]
I don't know when I last used a thermal drone in pvp.
Probably before armor tanking was invented.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
|
Tovarishch
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:13:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Tovarishch on 31/10/2005 17:16:36
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/10/2005 14:53:55
There is a serious problem with these changes.
The first thing is that it forces Gallente into thermal damage.
The second is that it completely ruins the idea of drones as a primary weapon system.
Both of these things have needed to be changed for ages.
Drones were never designed to be a primary damage system. The Dominix has been a monster for ages... using only a very small amount of skill points. This should balance things out a tiny bit.
Now if they would simply address tweaking missiles and enforcing an actual tracking system for drones.
This is going to wind up being more of a buff for drones unless they finally force them to track targets.
|
Nero Scuro
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:26:00 -
[61]
Messing with game balance to try and sort out lag is just so laughable it's not even funny. Er... something like that.
___
forum whoring -  |
Roshan longshot
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:29:00 -
[62]
Well so much for the Domi, first it was the Thorax now the Domi??
Domi made such a good mining ship, had enough drones so you can have two waves. One for mining, when rats showed up you could recall your mining drones, and launch combat drones...
By the way, drone commands still need some loving. Return to drone bay dont work too well, have to issue the order two, three, somtimes four times to get all the drones in...
And what about those two drones that like to hold hands while they return to orbit?
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
Smithers
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:33:00 -
[63]
/me wonders if the build time on t2 combat drones will be increased in accordance with this so instead of taking 20misn they take like 1hr or something?
|
Ja'kar
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:35:00 -
[64]
ok the dev blog link sends me back to kierons post and no information on the drones, can any one post a link, please and thank you
|
Vult
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:37:00 -
[65]
My 2 worthless isk...
5 drones. 1 apoc. 1 rogue drone agent mission. Tons of NPC drones omgwtfpwnxxoring you because your drones can't take them out quick enough.
Here's what I'm kinda thinking...
Okay, nerf the number of drones so that the absolute limit is 10. (Sorry Domi's) But, implement a system so that if you fly a drone boat that allows you to have over 10 drones, put a damage or HP bonus in place. (Gallente BS = 10% bonus to drome HP/damage per level?)
I fly an apoc (sometimes a geddon) and I rely on drones to get rid of those little pesky frigs and other drones that just catch up to me. I'm not a fan of smarties... I'd rather have a slew of Hammerheads at my disposal.
|
Nac MacFeegle
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:41:00 -
[66]
*starts composing a lament for his Mining Dominix of DOOM*
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:41:00 -
[67]
Like this is going to do anything against lag... I mean up untill now very few people acctually bothered to launch drones, but now?! Even people who deal so much damage that they didn't need drones can do better now with a few painters or damper drones - so are we really going to see less drones on the battlefield?
|
Roshan longshot
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:41:00 -
[68]
Ok here is mister negative again...
Just wondering why the Gallente race is getting the nerf?
Its bad enough the rail guns are not the best in the world, now your takeing most of our primary weapons away.
Once again you are nerfing, instead of makeing new.
You know a decent anti-missle system, or a close in range system would be in order instead of NERFING the holy living heck out of us.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
markol
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:46:00 -
[69]
What about scrambling drones? Could be usefull for ceptor pilots. That would make stabs much less of a win button when traveling.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:52:00 -
[70]
Stabs never were an I win button when traveling. People just have to realize that a single jammer isn't an I win button either.
|
Rafein
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:54:00 -
[71]
the problem with scrambler drones is design.
Drones are made to not be nearly as powerful as modules.
So you might get what, 1 heavy drone max outta an intercepter. that will give you what, 0.2 max scrambling?
Maybe the Domi would be able to get 1 full point of Scrambling strength
|
Yzman Shhan
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:57:00 -
[72]
I spent 30 minutes last night watching the lollerskates run around the whopping 10m3 of dronespace in my stabber.
Quote:
Drone bays reduced to half of what they are today
But this will make me cry.. Instead of the 1 medium drone that I can yield against a thorax full of heavies against me, I'm now limited to one light drone
|
Redblade
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:04:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Redblade on 31/10/2005 18:05:08
If u where to make the bonus to all drone dmg and remove anything that is EW from drones it might be a good change, more EW options will only take the actual fighting out of engagements and increase helpless ganking.
Edit: And while u'r at it change the Caldari bonus to all missiles aswell, specific dmg bonus ftl, especialy with assult ships around.
|
Justice Starcatcher
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:09:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Messing with game balance to try and sort out lag is just so laughable it's not even funny. Er... something like that.
Oddly I agrre with Nero. It seems like an admission of failure on CCP's part. We can't do it right so we won't do it at all.
What the... |
Bhaal
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:15:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Bhaal on 31/10/2005 18:15:10
This sounds like a half-assed solution IMO.
Looks like someone is giving up on the drone lag problem...
I wish I could give up on a problem in this manner where I work, and the customer would take it up the ass and not have a problem with it...
Weak
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE |
Fi T'Zeh
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:15:00 -
[76]
I kinda see what's going on here now. My origional reaction to the dev blog was a good old fashioned O_o. But having calmed myself I feel ready to comment...
It seems clear that CCP has decided that each race will get some kind of unique damage bonuses. Which is OK, except that one race gets to do three damage types but no special on its BS, and one race doesn't have a type specific bonus on its Battleships at all.
Caldari are picking up Kinetic damage all over the shop
Gallente are about to get a thermal boost. (to go with the dubious honour of their thermal bomber bonus)
Amarr get EM on their bomber / malediction. - but no bs damage bonus (amarr ftw anyone ?)
Minmater get to wtf bbq by being able to choose from three damage types and get an explosive bomber bonus.
I don't have a particular problem with each race getting a kinda wierd racial specific damage boost but you gotta make it even handed. Is the Geddon suddenly going to pick up an EM damage boost ? And are Minnies gonna stop doing 3 damage types ?
....
|
Mitawyn
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
:[
For once I agree with you on something.
|
F'nog
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:19:00 -
[78]
Why nerf our drone bay size?? Why, why?????
You're adding all these new drones to use, to mix and match as we need, only we can't carry any of them. It's almost always bad to nerf multiple things at once. If you're gonna limit us to 5 drones max we should at least get to carry a wide variety of them. It's already a pain/impossible to get them to return so we can launch new ones. But, hey, I guess we won't have to worry about that since we can't carry more than 1 or 2 anyway.
Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
|
Jaabaa Prime
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:32:00 -
[79]
Interesting to say the least.
I'm not too sure about the "racial" thermal damage bonus though, maybe a smaller bonus but for all types would be a better move.
The only think I could really see as being a problem is the chance of hitting with 15 drones is higher than with 5, even if they will be doing more damage in future.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
David Corbett
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:50:00 -
[80]
Indeed - what's this, nerf drones because they cause lag? What's next - "Turrets cause lag. Therefore, large battleships are losing half of their turrets, which are now being doubled in damage/RoF/whatever. They will be forced to use rediculous, asinine one-damage-only-that-every-HAC-except-one has a good resist again, and nerfs the versatility right out of them. If you want to start with this racial damage stuff, nerf Projectile turrets so that they act like every other turret in the game.
And what's with the idea of racial damage, anyway? It doesn't make any tactical or strategic sense at all, especially considering how easy it is to harden armour; if the Caldari and Gallente got into a war, they'd just load themselves up with Thermal or Kinetic hardeners (respectively) and all strategic creativity goes out the window.
Way to go, CCP, you're killing an entire race's versatility over lag. Gallente: home of stupidly short range guns, crappy damage long range turrets, poor PG/CPU figures, and nerfed drones that other races do just about as well anyway. Nice to see that if I wanted to use explosive drones on my domi, an Armageddon would do the job just as well, just with triple the powergrid and actual useful bonuses.
|
infused
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:01:00 -
[81]
I don't like the change.
Apoc with 1-2 drones :/
God dammit, stop changing things. I don't know how much more of this i'm goign to put up with.
|
Jennai
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:07:00 -
[82]
racial damage sucks because lack of versatility sucks. what's the point of flying a "drone ship" when it's no better than any other ship on three of the four damage types?
replace the thermic/EM with a flat bonus to ALL drone damages, and do the same with the caldari missileboats.
|
Veskrashen
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:18:00 -
[83]
Is everyone missing the change to Drone Interfacing? Who cares if you're only controlling 5 drones, if those 5 are dealing the same amount of damage or mining the same amount as 10 used to? Yes, it limits flexibility somewhat, in that you can't have as many different damage types going at once... but it also means that the additional functions these new drones offer will be harder to push to extremes.
I also have to say that while losing the drone control bonus on Gallente ships sucks, it makes sense in light of the DI skill change and balance reasons when the new drones are taken into account. If they could control 10 drones, those 10 would be doing the same damage as 20 used to... which would be a MAJOR buff. Or they could do the same damage as before and get 5 drones worth of new toys to play with. Either one of which would be a huge shift in their favor.
A damage bonus makes sense, in that it allows their 5 drones to do the same damage as 15 used to. I'm not a fan of racial damage, but I understand it from an RP perspective - and anyone who hunts NPCs should understand it as well. Not all decisions are made from a pure numbers perspecive, however odd that may seem.
Architect of Change |
Jacob Majestic
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[84]
Repeat after me:
MESSING WITH GAME BALANCE TO SOLVE SERVER PROBLEMS IS BAD.
Twelve months down the road, server performance problems will be solved with (gasp!) software optimization and hardware improvements. Because of the nature of skilltraining it will be impossible to turn back the clock and restore the previous balance in this case.
|
Lady Noir
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:24:00 -
[85]
Great changes.
|
Latex Mistress
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:25:00 -
[86]
I'd like all the SP's I have in drones back please. You may distribute them evenly between Gunnery and Spaceship Command.
Thanks,
LM
|
Kuriatai
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:28:00 -
[87]
Missile nerf = My Raven sitting in the mothball hangar collecting dust.
Drone nerf = My Dominex keeping the Raven company.
I'd train Amarr but they are probably next.
Commander USS Turtle U-1
Unknown, unauthorized, and first of that class |
Burga Galti
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:35:00 -
[88]
The problem with this change is this:
Taking the dominix as an example, drones are it's main weapon system. With a 10% bonus to thermal it's usefulness is reduced drastically. Now, I understand that the Raven has a similar 10% bonus to kinetic damage. The difference is that the Raven's missile launchers can't be destroyed.
Now, I can understand that you don't want Domi's flying around with 10 EW drones (though that would be fun from a very selfish point of view). But if you want to maintain balance then some other changes need to be done here. Perhaps boosting speed of drones for drone ships might be an idea thus making their drones slightly harder to hit and more responsive.
****************
Pain is a way of knowing yourself; Death is the ultimate in self-discovery.
|
Linavin
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:40:00 -
[89]
If its not broke don't fix it. Drones are a perfect example, the only balancing that needs to be done is the introduction of tracking so Heavies cant wtfpwn an interceptor in 2 seconds.
And thinking that a racial damage bonus will make up for a lack of drones is ludicrious. Just ask just about any caldari missile pilot, racial damage bonuses destroy the versatility arguement of a weapon that can change damage types. Such a nerf in the name of ending lag is a horrible idea. Drone lag has never been a problem for me except in large fleet battles (50+ ships) in which all the players are causing most of the lag themselves.
The only changes that need to occur is the balancing of heavy drones. Nothing else needs to be changed
|
El Yatta
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:43:00 -
[90]
This is terrible, Tux. PLEASE DONT DO THIS. Whats the point being a drone specialist and flying the ishtar or dominix with these changes.
1) If you fly ishtar/arbi/domi, and want to carry EW or tackling or repairing drones, you have to give up 1/5 of your offensive capability for EVERY one of these new drones you launch. Wheras a geddon, raven, apoc, tempest, mk2 thorax, rupture, any-hac-but-ishtar can use its largely irrlevent drone bay to supplement its midslots. I.e. those people who love drones, and fly their droneships, CANT REALLY USE THE NEW DRONES.
2) The thermal damage bonus. Its bad, yes, but its even worse than the kestrel/caracal/cerberus kinetic one, because all missiles do the same damage base. Ie, it takes kinetic and makes it better. Thermal drones already do more damage than the others, and now you're only getting a bonus to them. Ie, no point using any other type, because they're now nerfed - a flock of berserkers and praetors just do piddly damage compared to an Ishtar's flock of ogres. Sure, they used to do less, but now its WAY less -ie. unbalanced.
3)Less drones, looks less cool.
4) Drone control modules - two are good, but the optimal range one? Well, the bonus is useful on the ishtar, as it makes it a bit more distinct from the domi, as well as useful because its fairly nippy, and can end up a distance from its drones. I think teh new skill EW Drone Interfacing will add to that enough - we dont need more range even than that. A drone SPEED module, even with a medium-high cap drain, would be awesome.
So, in conclusion - new drones good, but useless to thus-far dedicated drone specialists, and a big fat nerf to the drone boats in terms of diversity (THEIR DAMN SPECIALITY, LOOK AT THE SLOTS), and damage. Also, looks less cool.
This needs a rethink, I beg you CCP.
---:::---
|
Amitious Turkey
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:44:00 -
[91]
thermal dmg bonus ftl.
decrease drone bay ftl.
and im gonna miss my drone swarm.
other than that, no complaints.gonna love the nossies
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)[]==^= (urtok's bunny)
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
The writer of the article did not quote himself - Cortes
What happened? When did it happen? Where? Who
was involved? Why did |
ElCapitan
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:46:00 -
[92]
Edited by: ElCapitan on 31/10/2005 19:47:40
i think this change would go over much better if dominix got some kind of boost like an extra slot or more powergrid or something like that. Being able to only use 5 drones even if those drones can do much more damage kind of nerfs the ship. Much more reasonable solution i think would be to let dominix, ishtar and other drone carriers use maximum of 10 drones and reduce the damage bonus and let the rest of the ships use max of 5 drones with max skills at much lower damage rate. Never mind the nerf itself, it simply would be very visually unappealing to have a drone carrier type of ship able to control the same number as any other ship.
Also regarding sentry drones: those should be tied some way to system sovereignty. You should be able to deploy them only in systems that your alliance has sovereignty over. Otherwise they are gonna just turn into gate campers best friend.
|
FPS Doug
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:51:00 -
[93]
You want to fix lag? Start here.
Thanks!
|
Megadon
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 19:55:00 -
[94]
I guess its the gallente's turn for the nerf bat of doom this round
|
Xthril Ranger
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:02:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Xthril Ranger on 31/10/2005 20:02:56
I would like to point out that since the drone carriers only get bonuses to damage and mining yield they will not be better than any normal ship at using EWAR drones , sentry drones and logistic drones.
I think it is a shame that the typical drone carriers will not get an advantage at using these drone types.
hirr |
Finix Jaeger
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:05:00 -
[96]
Honestly, I'm not sure its really that bad. instead of 15 drones you'll have 5 drones doing the same(somewhat) damage.
Maybe change the damage bonus from racial to an overall damage.
I'm probably missing the big picture but less drone lag would be nice.
-------------------------
|
Jennai
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:05:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Burga Galti
Taking the dominix as an example, drones are it's main weapon system. With a 10% bonus to thermal it's usefulness is reduced drastically. Now, I understand that the Raven has a similar 10% bonus to kinetic damage. The difference is that the Raven's missile launchers can't be destroyed.
they changed the raven, now it has cruise/siege ROF and cruise/torp velocity bonus.
|
Marie Trudeau
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:12:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 31/10/2005 20:15:43
Originally by: Veskrashen
Is everyone missing the change to Drone Interfacing? Who cares if you're only controlling 5 drones, if those 5 are dealing the same amount of damage or mining the same amount as 10 used to? Yes, it limits flexibility somewhat, in that you can't have as many different damage types going at once... but it also means that the additional functions these new drones offer will be harder to push to extremes.
I also have to say that while losing the drone control bonus on Gallente ships sucks, it makes sense in light of the DI skill change and balance reasons when the new drones are taken into account. If they could control 10 drones, those 10 would be doing the same damage as 20 used to... which would be a MAJOR buff. Or they could do the same damage as before and get 5 drones worth of new toys to play with. Either one of which would be a huge shift in their favor.
A damage bonus makes sense, in that it allows their 5 drones to do the same damage as 15 used to. I'm not a fan of racial damage, but I understand it from an RP perspective - and anyone who hunts NPCs should understand it as well. Not all decisions are made from a pure numbers perspecive, however odd that may seem.
The problem is that the Gallente drone ships are seriously nerfed by this because the ship bonus only relating to thermal damage drones. The Dominix, for example, will only be as powerful post-nerf if it is using thermal drones ... if it's using other drones, its main weaponry is seriously nerfed compared to what it is today. Same for Vexor. Same for Ishtar. When you nerf the primary weapon of these ships, what are they getting in return for that nerf? Are people really that worried that the Dominix and Vexor are overpowered?? Hmmm, I don't seem to recall many folks thinking that way.
The drone ships should be better at drones in general than other ships are ... it's their main weapon. What does the Dominix get in return to replace the lost firepower that this change would give it in every area other than thermal damage, for example? Shouldn't the Dominix just be better than other ships at all drone combat?
---------------------------
|
Scorpyn
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:31:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Scorpyn on 31/10/2005 20:31:52
This is kinda funny as I was thinking about some drone problems earlier today, and then I get home, get on the forums and I see this.
Looks interesting, especially the different ew drones... still no automatic scooping of drones around the ship when warping though *hint hint*
Just 1 more year of missile skills and then I should be ready to train this 
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:43:00 -
[100]
Drone ship pilots get screwed royaly by this anyways.
Take your average Gankship, it can deal tons and tons of damage with its guns. It doesn't need drones to deal damage. All of the sudden here come EW and repair drones: Weeee, free med/lowslots, in exchange for my previously useless dronebay.
Now take a droneship, it deals damage with its drones. It still has to deal damage with its drones. Oh, oops, you get absoloutly no benefit from the new drones, on the contrary, drone ships are only ones who doen't get any benefit, because they need to use combat drones.
So basicly its like allowing ships that deal damage with their highslots to use their dronebay for Medslots, but ships that deal damage with their dronebay can't use their highslots for medslots all the sudden. And it's not even like droneships didn't need their highslots before - they just don't get anything from this entire change!
Even worse, now there are modules that affect drones effectivity, so in order to have a really good droneship you acctually have to use your slots on top of the drones, which means while everyone is getting free med and lowslots droneships lose slots and get absoloutly nothing in return, not even an increase in damage of any kind, but a restriction on the damage types they can deal as effectively as they could before the change.
Screw this entire stupid change.
|
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:49:00 -
[101]
Post-patch:
Heavy Drone Operation is a Rank 5 skill that gives 5% extra damage per level.
Drone Interfacing is a Rank 5 skill that gives 20% extra damage per level.
Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:52:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Post-patch:
Heavy Drone Operation is a Rank 5 skill that gives 5% extra damage per level.
Drone Interfacing is a Rank 5 skill that gives 20% extra damage per level.
Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Not really... Heavy Drone Operation only applies to heavy drones, drone interfacing applies to both heavies and scout drones.
|
Magunus
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:55:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Sir Tuxford
What about modules?
Well they are not many and not that complex. So far there are three of them. One increases the damage output of all combat drones, one increases your drone control range and another boosts the optimal range and tracking on drones.
On the upside, these modules would help, since only drone specialist ships would probably use them. No details on good they are, but they do have the potential to make up for a lot of the complaints here. With the Dom's new bonuses, plus these modules, drones will be a lot tougher, do a lot more damage, and be useable at a longer range. Actully makes me wish I had more than 2k SP in drones. :(
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:55:00 -
[104]
heavy drone operation applies to all drones, as does scout drone operation.
And yes, that is stupid. Why spend 30 days getting a 5% increase in dmage when you can spend the same 30 days and get a 20% increase...
This entire idea for a drone change is half baked and stupid.
|
Ishana
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 20:59:00 -
[105]
Ok did anyone miss the sentry drones?
I would like to know how tuxford is proposing to prevent people from deploying 50+ of these at every gate and station in 0.0, making any attack basicly impossible?
Just wondering if there will be some kind of limit to the number of sentry drones per grid or something.
On the other changes they might work if implemented properly. As long as the gallente keep their average drone damage and drone hp in comparison to the other races, I don't see a problem there.
Also it is a nice way to implement ew drones without making them overpowerd. (/me shakes in fear of the prospect of 15 jammer drones) But they should be balanced towards the number of module slots a ship has.
_________________________________________________________
|
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Noriath
heavy drone operation applies to all drones, as does scout drone operation.
And yes, that is stupid. Why spend 30 days getting a 5% increase in dmage when you can spend the same 30 days and get a 20% increase...
This entire idea for a drone change is half baked and stupid.
In order:
1. Test it. I was certain that this was true for a while, and then someone told me it wasn't, I tried it out and low and behold, heavy drone ops doesn't count towards scout drones.
2. Tech 2 heavy drones (25% base damage boost over T1 + spec skill)
|
Ticondrius
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:00:00 -
[107]
Are you guys giving poor Tuxford the third rail(s) of EVE balance on purpose? First it was the Thorax Dorne bay...ok, that's now all well and good. Now it's something that EVERYONE uses..not just Gallente, unlike missiles.
Tux, if you're still following this flamewar, please, if you nerf the number of drones we can control, then boost the BASE dmg and BASE HP of all drones by the same ratio!
Also, like someone else said, if I can only launch 5 drones maximum in my Dominix, you betcha they're going to be combat drones. Forget Ewar stuff. The ship just don't have the ability to be good at anything but drones.
Aside from that, ever since the drone spec skills were released as "racial" specializations, I've been somewhat upset. Gallente are the drone race! There's a whole chronicle on drone and their creation. There should be no racial specific drone damage bonuses.
Instead of a dmg type bonus being tacked onto ships, replace the dmg bonus of the drone spec skills with the dmg specific bonus.
Doing so would make training the specialization skills a lot more useful, as drones do so little damage to begin with individually, that a 2% per level bonus is silly.
|
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:04:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ishana
Ok did anyone miss the sentry drones?
I would like to know how tuxford is proposing to prevent people from deploying 50+ of these at every gate and station in 0.0, making any attack basicly impossible?
Just wondering if there will be some kind of limit to the number of sentry drones per grid or something.
Well, I assumed the sentry guns^H^H^H^H drones would require you to actually be there to control them like other drones. So, if you can post a couple guys 23/7 at ever gate/station in 0.0 then go for it...
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:09:00 -
[109]
I have toa gree that all resemblence of ballance are thrown out of the window with this change to drone specialists.
As already stated the result for for example a Dominix:
- no more use of damage types otehr then thermal, it would equal the dominix to an armageddon in drone damage, and we all know they are about as far apart as two BS can get when it comes to highslot damage dealing capability. Utterly ridiculous.
Yes, you proabably expect the new modules to take up some of this nerfing, but look at how the ships are now. Does it look like drone specialist ships have slots to spare and use on drone enhancement modules to you ? I don't see it really.
- Less drones, even with the relative same hp total, are far more easily lost. You'll have to do alot more then scale up drone hp's timer two. You'll have to scale up drone hp's times two for everyone but the specialist ships, and scale up drone hp times 4 for those. How are you going to do that ? Switch another ship bonus ? Ouch...
- the new drone types can be used by anyone BUT the specialists in practice. Do you expect the Dominix to tank, and use ecm drones so it ends up with a scrambled and ajmmed target but with no ability to kill it since it's got no damage dealing drones in space ? Special drones are nice, but you need to let specialist ship retain teh ability to field extra drones, if not damage dealing ones then just non-combat ones like suggested before.
Actually, I saw something that looks about right to me earlier here...
Change the drone carrier bonuses to:
10% drone damage per level
+1 non-combat drone control per level.
Give them the choice.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
|
Ishana
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:11:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Ishana on 31/10/2005 21:13:05
Quote:
Well, I assumed the sentry guns^H^H^H^H drones would require you to actually be there to control them like other drones. So, if you can post a couple guys 23/7 at ever gate/station in 0.0 then go for it...
If you have to controll them then that would be ok I guess. I was thinking about them being the player controlled sentry guns that were promised a while ago. Escpecially with the anchoring, I assumed they would be (semi)permanent.
If they are controlled, what's keeping people from logging in an alt and anchoring a few every day? I know I could keep my pc running 23/7 with an alt, without probs.
just some thoughts...
_________________________________________________________
|
Mr Floppyknickers
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:24:00 -
[111]
Hmm, I don't like the limit of 5 drones and half the bay. Moreover, this raises a very interesting question. Carriers. If the system can't handle drone use as is, is this nerf being done to get people used to the idea of a 10-15 drone carrier? Maybe i'm a looney, but I thought carriers would be fielding 25-50 drones. Now it seems we should expext 15 at best, since having 5 now is a big deal. Not exactly a grand vision of a capital ship.
This move will cripple all drone ships. Additionally, I find it quite appalling the amount of people delighting in a gallante nerf, like we were overdue. I will never understand how you can delight in someone elses misery. If you think you ship sucks, fight to make it better, not cry for everyone elses to be made worse.
this does not bode well, and is a mistake. At the most a deidcated drone ship should be limited to 10 drones, not 5.
|
fairimear
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:25:00 -
[112]
Edited by: fairimear on 31/10/2005 21:27:06
i do have to say that this is the first change to the game that pending how bad itis would cause me to quit.
changing gallente ship's from number of drones to dammage is pure BS as thermal is a nath resistance type as all ships are partialy tanked in it.
how about sorting the thousands of jet can's in space, the huge numbers of macro miners before blaming drones for lag now.
first it's missiles then drones wtf next?
and Keiron it looks like he has managed to do it again.
maybe you should consider asking for more comon sense out of him over asking the whole 70k comunity to bottle up their anger.
now im really PI**ED off.
Please resize your signature image, the filesize limit is 24,000 bytes - Imaran
|
w0rmy
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:25:00 -
[113]
Regarding the Domi and Ishtar...
Most
retarded
idea
ever.
Id enter solid arguement as to why, but itd fall on deaf ears.
|
Vito Parabellum
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:28:00 -
[114]
Second officer: New contact! Bearing 125 by 49! Designated ***lord-Fiver!
Captain: What type of ship is it?
Second officer: It's like nothing I've ever seen before! Wait... Yes, its one of those new prototype Gallente carriers!
Captain: Keep a close eye on it.
Second officer: Oh my God! Its opening up! Its releasing... 5 frig sized drones! They are heading this way!
Captain: Activate the thermal hardners immediately and start a new mining cycle.
|
Kyguard
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:41:00 -
[115]
Originally by: fairimear
i do have to say that this is the first change to the game that pending how bad itis would cause me to quit.
I have the same feeling right now.
Lets get this straight, hybrid weapons mainly do kin and therm dmg, so you would want to have drones that do the other 2 that are left.
So wtf is up with the therm bonus?
--
God is on the side with the best artillery |
Hague Starcatcher
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:43:00 -
[116]
Why not a compromise? Change the drone interface skill, but leave the drone carrier bonus to +1 drone. You still cut the number of drones in use by half for the majority of ships, and one third for the carrier users. The carriers remain carriers.
|
Vestas
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:44:00 -
[117]
It puts Gallente ships of cruiser or above in the same postition as Minmatar ships of the same class were for so long - pointless. I assume that IS the intention as it's hard to see what point the Gallente ships have now.
I'm certainly selling ALL of mine - I suspect most sane people are currently doing the same (if you're not I'd advise you to). Having just returned a month ago after a break the big question for me is whether I can be bothered to just write off all the training I did on Gallente ships and "adapt". There's only so many times you can adapt to major changes without it becoming irritating enough to say "enough of this nonsense!"
|
Khatred
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:48:00 -
[118]
Guess what, you will transform manufacturing in a nightmare, screw drone users, who know what other "nice packaged with pink ribbons" nerfs to come AND 150 vs 150 fleet battles will still be laggy.
I doubt that 1% resources freed from there and another 0.5% freed from somewhere else will improve the lag. Maybe it's time for another approach that doesn't mess up the game even more?
________________________________________________
The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:49:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
I kinda see what's going on here now. My origional reaction to the dev blog was a good old fashioned O_o. But having calmed myself I feel ready to comment...
It seems clear that CCP has decided that each race will get some kind of unique damage bonuses. Which is OK, except that one race gets to do three damage types but no special on its BS, and one race doesn't have a type specific bonus on its Battleships at all.
Caldari are picking up Kinetic damage all over the shop
Gallente are about to get a thermal boost. (to go with the dubious honour of their thermal bomber bonus)
Amarr get EM on their bomber / malediction. - but no bs damage bonus (amarr ftw anyone ?)
Minmater get to wtf bbq by being able to choose from three damage types and get an explosive bomber bonus.
I don't have a particular problem with each race getting a kinda wierd racial specific damage boost but you gotta make it even handed. Is the Geddon suddenly going to pick up an EM damage boost ? And are Minnies gonna stop doing 3 damage types ?
Amarr can only do EM/Thermal damage in the first place, with ammo biased towards the EM side. Hence, amarr get an EM bonus for racial damage.
Caldari can do all damage at equal rates, so they get a kinetic bonus to make kinetic their racial damage.
Gallente do kinetic and thermal, with ammo biased towards Thermal. This makes thermal the gallente's racial damage, hence they will get thermal bonuses in times like these.
Minmatar projectiles do all damage types, but it is biased towards explosive damage. Hence, they get a racial explosive damage bonus.
Minmatar missiles do all damage types in equal measure, so they get an explosive bonus where needed.
For other examples of where reach race gets a racial damage bonus, see the Stealth Bombers, Caldari missile damage bonuses, and minmatar missile damage bonuses.
Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
|
Jacob Majestic
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:50:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 31/10/2005 21:54:39
Originally by: Hague Starcatcher
Why not a compromise? Change the drone interface skill, but leave the drone carrier bonus to +1 drone. You still cut the number of drones in use by half for the majority of ships, and one third for the carrier users. The carriers remain carriers.
Because you still have the ridiculous inconsistency of having two Rank 5 skills, one of which confers a 5% bonus to drone damage and the other one which confers a 20% bonus to drone damage.
STOP THE INSANITY. Add new drones. The numbers of drones are fine like they are. If you have server resource problems, add servers instead of nerfing drone carriers.
Originally by: Sarmaul
Amarr can only do EM/Thermal damage in the first place, with ammo biased towards the EM side. Hence, amarr get an EM bonus for racial damage.
Caldari can do all damage at equal rates, so they get a kinetic bonus to make kinetic their racial damage.
Gallente do kinetic and thermal, with ammo biased towards Thermal. This makes thermal the gallente's racial damage, hence they will get thermal bonuses in times like these.
Minmatar projectiles do all damage types, but it is biased towards explosive damage. Hence, they get a racial explosive damage bonus.
Minmatar missiles do all damage types in equal measure, so they get an explosive bonus where needed.
Except that everyone and their mother and their freaking brother tanks thermal. There are two damage types that are clearly superior in PvP: EM and EXP. Thermal damage is a joke and it's blindingly obvious that TH damage is a joke.
|
w0rmy
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:55:00 -
[121]
Originally by: kieron
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
If Tux job is to get people to quit, he deserves a payrise.
|
Crusari
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:57:00 -
[122]
Well sounds good for the most part, but as loads of ppl have posted already, why the hell the thermal damage bonus to gallente droneboats... :/
Since Gallente is THE dronerace, surely they must have found something to improve other drones aswell next to ogres
|
F'nog
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:00:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Hague Starcatcher
Why not a compromise? Change the drone interface skill, but leave the drone carrier bonus to +1 drone. You still cut the number of drones in use by half for the majority of ships, and one third for the carrier users. The carriers remain carriers.
This I can agree with, or as Rod mentioned from someone else, make it a non-combat drone bonus.
But as has been said before, limiting the DRONE CARRIERS to not being able to use the new drones is incomprehensively stupid. This goes with my previous point that halving the drone bay for everyone removes the ability to use multiple types of drones, unless, perchance, the new drones are all 1m^3, which I highly doubt.
Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
|
Trepkos
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:01:00 -
[124]
Wow, Sir Tuxford not only needs to be fired but also sent to a asylum for the insane. Just get him away from anything dealing with the game's mechanics before he ruins the game worse then its already headed to.
----------------
Cosmic Fusion Killboard
|
Joshua Deakin
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:12:00 -
[125]
First reaction:
I'm a relatively new player and I've started to specilize in drones. I have bought the Dom, but don't have the skills until thursday and now I'm reading I've made the wrong career choice...*cursing loudly* (maybe I'm still able to cancel the 3 month subscription...).
My stats as of tomorrow:
Gallante cruiser lvl 4, Mining drones lvl 2
Drones lvl 5, Interfacing lvl 3
That gets 12 drones in the tried and proven system in a Vexor.
Medium drone nerf from 54 dps to 36 dps (not thermal). Mining goes from 198m3 to 132m3.
It's nice that the game adds longevity as I need to train even more skills to get where I'm today. Yay.
Fix the underlaying code and increase bandwith. I can mine an hour and fight a couple npc spawns and in that timeframe I upload hardly 50KB.
|
Marie Trudeau
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:13:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 31/10/2005 22:13:05
Originally by: Rod Blaine
As already stated the result for for example a Dominix:
- no more use of damage types otehr then thermal, it would equal the dominix to an armageddon in drone damage, and we all know they are about as far apart as two BS can get when it comes to highslot damage dealing capability. Utterly ridiculous.
Absolutely 100% correct.
CCP, please listen to this, if you listen to nothing else: it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for the Geddon to be as effective at drones as the Dominix for all but one type of damage. If you're going to do that, give the Dominix the other abilities that the Geddon has. Case closed.
---------------------------
|
w0rmy
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:18:00 -
[127]
And the worst thing is, i bet all 5 drones will get stuck together humping each other.
|
EvilDoomer
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:24:00 -
[128]
Originally by: kieron
Drones! Love them or hate them, they are an integral part of EVE and one with much emotional attachment. Whether you pilot a drone boat or have been the recipient of their attention, nearly everyone has had some interaction with drones. However, the system behind drones, and the drones themselves, are a bit outdated.
Sir Tuxford has a new Dev Blog on drones. Some old friends are going through some changes, some new friends are coming, and even some new skills to work with the growing drone family.
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
Bad move, Why change how many drones.
This is a nasty nerf to Dominix and Arbi and Vexor.
lose 5 drones and your screwed.
Thanks
EvilDoomer
Chicago Mobsters
In-Game Channel:DAMOB
 |
Glassback
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:24:00 -
[129]
Nooooooooooooooo!!!!
Are the new drone BPO's gona be on the market? New Isk sink?
Dont change the ship bonus to one damage type its the only way Galante ships can vary their damage type.
I dont like it, im scared.
|
Admiral IceBlock
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:33:00 -
[130]
sometimes i ask myself why some one would even post such a retarded idea, the answer i get is not nice.
i trained gallente to be able to fly the moros with its 35 heavy drones, now your nerfing it? then skill compensation i want!
lets see, 5 heavy drones now for the moros doing +70% thermal dmg, sure that is "nice". so 15 drones * 400 (preator hp) / 5 (new drones) = 1200 hp for a heavy drone, thats nice really nice for the dominix. but on my moros i was suppose to have 35 drones, i guess MY DRONES will be 35 * 400 / 5 = 2800 hp per. sure sounds good fuxford!
now seriously, please think of something else! this is not the way to do it.
"We brake for nobody"
|
Jorund Bork
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:36:00 -
[131]
Great..... Gallente HAC specialist and just on the final leg of maxing out my drone skills. Makes me wonder why I bothered tbh
As others have said, this, far more than anything else to date, makes me wonder how much longer I'll be playing. Way to go.......
|
yossarette
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:43:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Because you still have the ridiculous inconsistency of having two Rank 5 skills, one of which confers a 5% bonus to drone damage and the other one which confers a 20% bonus to drone damage.
medium artillery specialization - rank 5
2% Bonus to the damage of turrets requiring Medium Artillery Specialization
medium projectile turret - rank 3
5% Bonus to medium projectile turret damage.
advanced weapon upgrades - rank 6
Reduces the power needs of turrets and launchers by 2% per level of skill.
weapon upgrades - rank 2
Reduces the CPU need of turrets,launchers and smartbombs by 5% per level of skill.
STOP THE INSANITY!
|
Taran Blake
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:59:00 -
[133]
Well, looks like I'm not going to bother going down the Gallente ship path now.
Time to look at the Amarr and Minmatar.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:01:00 -
[134]
Don't really see what gun skills have to do with any of that, at least gunskills don't give everyone who doesn't use guns free EW.
|
Kadafu
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:14:00 -
[135]
I can live with this change (I guess) IF:
5 drone max in my megathron or my girlfriend's dominix equals out to our current damage with current numbers of drones. (We both have max drone skills)
Make the damage bonus for Gallente ships all types, not just thermal. The T2 drones and skills address the specific damage types.
INCREASE drone bay size. If we can only have 5 in space, the same or even a larger drone bay would allow us to have backup/different types drones with us and ready to go.
Honestly, we've both been playing Eve for quite a while now and both have specialized in Gallente. It's painful to watch a (pick a ship, ANY ship) out damage our guns. Our one main bonus was our drone damage and their ability to take out intys and such while we dealt with larger ships with our blasters.
Add our names to those who are MUCH more likely to quit if this goes live in it's current form.... and I'd say "no, you can't have our stuff" but TBH, if this goes live, who's gonna want it? |
Trader Klyde
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:16:00 -
[136]
Well add my name to the other dissatisfied customers list.
I like drones, this change from what I've seen so far will only destroy any friendship I have with my drones.
One of the big advantages to launching a large amount of drones is that they act a decoys in addition to doing damage, while they are being shot at I'm not.
Now with the changes, instead of 15 decoys flying around I will have 5, and unless they get a major boost in hitpoints, they will not last as long as 15 will just due to the time having to target that many drones. This is bad, very bad.
On top of that we can look forward to only being able to carry half of the replacements for the destroyed decoys, erm... drones.
I would like to know just which races ships you're not going to screw up in the near future, so I can start training for them now.
Bad idea guys, it's gonna take a lot of the fun out of driving a drone ship after this change. Maybe there's another way to cure the lag created by them, I sure hope so.
________________________________________________
From deep in space where nobody hears my screams...
Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style. |
HostageTaker
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:22:00 -
[137]
I recall reading a devblog a few months ago where a Dev said that drones would get changed, as in drone size and the bays of ships would be modified aswell so that players could send waves of drones should the first waves get destroyed....
WTF HAPPEND TO THAT?!
Wow, geee thx, a thermal bonus for my Ishtar... guess I'll go pick on NPCs that have weakness to thermal dmg now...
|
Summersnow
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:23:00 -
[138]
I want my money back.
There have been too many changes made, this isn't the game I bought and agreed to pay for.
Where do we send our claims for damages Tuxford?
With my time & fee's paid I figure you owe me around $15,000 US.
|
Voltron
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:25:00 -
[139]
Would have appreciated this about 5 months ago before I maxed drone/gallente hac skills......./me wishes he'd just gone amarr ftw.
Volt
|
Hans Roaming
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:26:00 -
[140]
Change the drone bonus to % accross all damage types, people with hybrids fly EM + EXP drones so it's a waste.
El Presedente
Anti Pirate? Tired of sec hits? Join us for free wars! |
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:32:00 -
[141]
im more inclined to stick with the dominix 5 drone thing and give it a major boost to NOSing ability. Allow it more a small drone but major energy sucking abilitiy in combat - esp with these new armour tanking changes.
|
TarianH
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:35:00 -
[142]
Yep, put me down as another who certainly consider this a deal-breaker.
Would listening to the community help? I mean, who actually asked for this madness? Anyone? I'd love to see a poll right now...
|
Zekks MarKeys
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:37:00 -
[143]
Thanks a lot i've just finished training minmitar drone specialization to lvl4 and the point of this was..........................?
|
Royaldo
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:48:00 -
[144]
This isnt what we need. This is another bad idea. Good thing though is... playerbase whine didnt force this change.
|
BaD PaPPa
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:49:00 -
[145]
Less drones for drone ships = BAD
Limited to 1 type damage = BAD
Sentry drones = Bad
Dont we have enough issue with gate gankers without giving them a new tool.
Haven't we had enough non value added nerfs
Guess the dev's have been smoking ***** again
|
El Yatta
|
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:56:00 -
[146]
Originally by: kieron
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
That's because you guys are giving him all the ****ty jobs! Rebalancing almost the entirety of Tech1, and he did it well, and managed to resist the flames, and listen to people, and communicate his feelings to us, and there were consensuses reached, and Mk2 looks fairly good. Presumably, you guys were so surprised that he managed to do it, that you made up a new, more horrible, task for him to do: a completely unnecessary and disgusting nerf of droneboats, while AT THE SAME TIME trying to introduce and balance several new drone types. What are you going to do next, send him out for a tin of striped paint, or something?
Unfortunately, no matter how well he conducts himself on this one, how hard he works, its not going to be accepted - because it RUINS drone versatility, and everybody uses drones. DROP IT. Give tux a decent task, the poor guy, let him work in Content on new T2 and BFS stuff, or creating complexes, or anything fun like that. The poor guy is going to get abused for this abhorrent change.
Originally by: Trepkos
Edited by: Trepkos on 31/10/2005 22:17:53
Wow, Sir Tuxford not only needs to be fired but also sent to a asylum for the insane. Just get him away from anything dealing with the game's mechanics before he ruins the game worse then its already headed to.
And Kieron, thats me being nice....
See what I mean?
---:::---
|
Kyguard
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:04:00 -
[147]
Quote:
That's because you guys are giving him all the ****ty jobs! Rebalancing almost the entirety of Tech1, and he did it well, and managed to resist the flames, and listen to people, and communicate his feelings to us, and there were consensuses reached, and Mk2 looks fairly good. Presumably, you guys were so surprised that he managed to do it, that you made up a new, more horrible, task for him to do: a completely unnecessary and disgusting nerf of droneboats, while AT THE SAME TIME trying to introduce and balance several new drone types. What are you going to do next, send him out for a tin of striped paint, or something?
Unfortunately, no matter how well he conducts himself on this one, how hard he works, its not going to be accepted - because it RUINS drone versatility, and everybody uses drones. DROP IT. Give tux a decent task, the poor guy, let him work in Content on new T2 and BFS stuff, or creating complexes, or anything fun like that. The poor guy is going to get abused for this abhorrent change.
Agree with you 100% there mate. I'm not going to blame Tux for this blog, but more the idiot who appointed him this project and pressured him to give results soon.
Tux has got some great ideas from the looks of the mk2 project so far (even though amarr ships need more cpu, not less), so give him a decent job and he'll do it well.
--
God is on the side with the best artillery |
Denine
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:05:00 -
[148]
How cool...
can use 35 drones with moros now, and after this, 5. nice... |
Sorja
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:11:00 -
[149]
It's impossible to figure out what the changes will be before they hit Sisi.
The ideas look very good though, and, face it, drones had to be nerfed when it comes to numbers, they just cause too much lag, so get over it.
The main problem I see with this overhaul is that all races are not born equal when it comes to drones.
If the new drones are good, Gallente will be better than ever and they already stand on top, while ships with no drone bay at all or halfed dronebay that will only allow to load 2 small drones (Moa, anyone?) will be left out in the cold.
And if the new drones don't meet the expectations, it will be a cruel nerf to Gallente which is not acceptable. Well, they were quick to sing the 'adapt or die' song to Caldari after the missile nerf, but Caldari don't bear grudges
Killmails |
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:14:00 -
[150]
i think these drone changes are well a unreasonable response but if they are going to be pushed through look for ways to boost those drone ships. Realise more t2 BPOs and BPCs for drones. And do not add this 1 damage type.
Les find other ways of reducing lag issues
|
Othnark
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:15:00 -
[151]
One MMO after another finally reaches a point of no FOTM, no I win class(ship), and hits somewhat of a balance...
THEN THEY GO AND DO BULL**** LIKE THIS!
CPP has just joined Mythic as winners of the:
HI I AM TO CHEAP TO BUY NEW SERVERS SO LETS **** WITH THE GAME MECHANICS TO SAVE .000000001% BANDIWTH ON A GAME U CAN PLAY ON 14.4 KBPS DIAL UP MODEM!
Oh and btw, you notice somthing here? BoB, The Five, NBSI, ASCN, and FE just to name a few, who all have some very experienced pilots, all have said they disagree. I wonder if thats some sort of amazing omg, once in a lifetime coincidence or if theres a reson for it?!?!?!!?!1?!!1
How many players have to say it?
IN ORDER
Fix Bugs
Fix Lag (through software optimization and HARDWARE upgrades)
Add content
btw, I fly mostly minmatar non drone ships, so yeah, take away the Ishtar/Domi and all the other Teir 1 BS primary weapon against my Wolf. PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!
-Othnark
|
Spenz
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:16:00 -
[152]
Last time I checked EVERYONE uses drones. Not everyone uses missiles? Do you see where Im coming from? This isnt just a Gallente nerf, its a nerf around the board for every race (except minmitar). Everyone gets the shaft, the gallente just get it harder.
And with all these new drones (most of which wont even be used) coming in and (more) new skills, is there any word on actually fixing the drone AI so that it does what you tell it to do?
This is a classic case of covering up glaring issues with new (mostly useless) content. Bad form by any game company.
|
Emsigma
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:19:00 -
[153]
Think this looks lovely!
I welcome this overhaul as much as the missile overhaul UNDER ONE CONDITION: Make the bonus for domi/ishtar 10% to all drones.
----------
// emsigma
|
Gerontiq
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:21:00 -
[154]
Ok, why do i get the horrible feeling that this change is gonna really really stink.
Combined with the updoming modules/stacking changes, Tanked Amarr 4tw.
Wanna kill Gallantes? Tank up on Therm and Kin. They won't be able to touch you.
Minmatar continue the kings of both long and short range, with any damage type.
Guys at CCP, I really really hope you have thougth this through properly. BTW I Loved the missile changes, and most Caldari are now as effective if not much more so with the new skills. With any damage type ofc (except for some ships kinetic missile damage bonuses which is a rubbish bonus to be fair).
People at CCP do you think your long-term player base will let you nerf the heck out of stuff we have spent MONTHS training for, only maybe (maybe) to have some chance to train up some new skills for a few new months until we are back to somehing like parity. That would be like going through adolescense again and frankly I don't feel like it.
Been playing 18 months or so now, loved nearly ever minute. Guess all good things come to an end. The future of Eve was looking great, looking like more and more chance to enjoy the fruits of my last year and a half of leisure time labours. Then it seems we are to be nerfed. Maybe I have something better to do for the coming few months of my life rather than train back to compensate for wasted skills?
Ok, nothing more to say. If you get it (as badly) wrong as it sems likely from what I have read, I can of course find something else to play if I so choose.
Gerontiq
"The only thing certain about this life, is having to get up for work in the other one in the morning" |
Menelak Faf
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:21:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Spenz
Last time I checked EVERYONE uses drones. Not everyone uses missiles? Do you see where Im coming from? This isnt just a Gallente nerf, its a nerf around the board for every race (except minmitar). Everyone gets the shaft, the gallente just get it harder.
And with all these new drones (most of which wont even be used) coming in and (more) new skills, is there any word on actually fixing the drone AI so that it does what you tell it to do?
This is a classic case of covering up glaring issues with new (mostly useless) content. Bad form by any game company.
Except Minmatar? The jack of all trades master of nothing? The people who use everything and get hit with every nerf?
Yeah, thought so.
Nerf drones, add new drones, but dont halve the dronebay so we can carry multiple sets of drones for different purposes.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:29:00 -
[156]
if u are going to press ahead with this unpopular nerf just to avoid boosting the servers and hardware then at least bring back for miners and boost supply to the game again
HARVESTOR DRONES - otherwise u will have some unhappy miners if u dont bring back harvestor drones boost t2 mining drones to 50 ore units a minute and boost the level 1s from 15 to 25 units a minute to make up for the less drones
And if drones are getting nerfed then at least boost the thorax and the dominix in other areas ie extra NOS ability or reduce cap usage for lasers.
|
Thorindor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:32:00 -
[157]
NOOOOOO DON'T DO IT. Are you guys MAD?! I have two accounts, BOTH focus on Drones. Ones Amarr and the other Gallente. Drone are well balamced atm. If your concerned with bandwith, the easiest change would be to make drones more powerful and larger. Less moving ogjects but same damage. &(#^ up drones and one of the coolest part of the game dies. Nothing beats the chatter of your drones guns as they shred the target. Drones are good, add more types, don't nerf! 
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:34:00 -
[158]
oh and dont forget to seed new harvestor drones into the game so that miners who use drones arent nerfed to buggery either.
Lets ignore a 5 limit - perhaps 10-15 maxiumum would be more approiprate and still reduce the lag if CCP isnt interested in installing new servers - hardware or optimisations to the game
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 00:39:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Latex Mistress
I'd like all the SP's I have in drones back please. You may distribute them evenly between Gunnery and Spaceship Command.
Seconded.
Congrats CCP, you've outdone yourselves, worst idea EVER. The Dominix's main purpose can now be countered with a couple of smartbombs, drone versatility goes out the window. The drones do more damage? Whopdee-[expletive]-do. In practical terms, 5 drones are still going to be a hell of a lot easier to kill than 15. The Dominix is now reassigned to the role of "bulletcatcher" and the ability to use it as a mining ship is now gone entirely. Everything loses half of it's drone bay (for no apparent reason, if we're limited to 5 drones, why does it matter how many we have in the drone bay?) so mining barges might well be trailing the Apoc as best miner again (someone else can do the math)
On top of that, you've gone the route of solving lag by nerfing things, thereby admitting failure to solve the lag problem.
This is a [expletive] terrible idea.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:02:00 -
[160]
look at optimisations and other upgrades before such a radical nerf heck even lower total drones in space down 20% to start with before going fullhog and completley knocking it down to 5 (its to drastic and wont work) ig uess this also goes with nerfing lower end NPC spawns and making em harder (this will do newbies a total disservice)
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:05:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 01/11/2005 01:07:05
Well, I don't have any ships that really count as drone-*****s, so I'm going to limit my comments here:
First, adding more skills that everyone has to train is extremely frustrating. My skill training queue already extends well into 2006 and now I have to fit the additional drone skills in if I don't want to die to frigs in NPC spawns?
Just great... I've already had to train up a bunch of new missile skills, now I have to take time out to train more drone skills as well? I foresee another period of time in which I only log in to switch skill training for several weeks.
Second, the whole thing with Caldari sentry drones doing the least damage - come on CCP, can you stop giving Caldari the shaft?
/sighs
I really wish I could find a single thing to look forward to in the upcoming changes, but I've seen nothing that even remotely interests me and/or doesn't screw over the things I enjoy (I *would* be interested in carriers and motherships if I could amass anything resembling the money to buy one without having to spend 6 months doing it and nothing else).
-Wrayeth
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:15:00 -
[162]
CCP, just for once, change the bait of a lifetime and listen to the players. Virtually everyone has told you that this is a stupid [expletive] idea and several have told you outright that it's a game breaker for them and they'll quit. Just drop it, drop the whole idea. It's pointless, insulting, lazy, unfair and destroys balence.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:17:00 -
[163]
well if they are going to the dominix needs a NOS boost - thoraxes need a speed and armour resistance boost and harvestor drones need to be more freely available and new supplies seeded into the game
That or minimize but still nerf drones keep the cap at 10-15 droens isntead of 5. And give it a lot of testing before doing the changes
|
David Corbett
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:20:00 -
[164]
Not all of this is bad. The new dronetypes rock.
But ughhhh! WTF was CCP thinking when they came up with the Gallente/Amarr drone carrier nerf :( Totally undeserved - it's not like those ships were overpowered at all.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:23:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 01:25:36
This change isn't going to reduce drones in the least. Up untill now drones weren't a staple of fleet combat, but after that everyone will want to put down the max number of sentry drones. Before the was one battleship that absoloutly relied on drones, and that ship was rare in fleet combat because it didn't have any serious long range guns to speak off. Now they want to add drone that is essentially a mobile sentry gun, and some are availible with high range - Think that's gonna reduce the lag in fleet battles?
And the new dronetypes suck. Everyone who wasn't using their dronebay before because they could deal enough damage with the rest of their ship just got free medslots handed to them.
Everyone who relied on their dronebay before just got... well "funked in the ash"
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:29:00 -
[166]
well it looks like CCP are going to push through with this change so lets just pile them with ideas on how to make these new drones work. Obvioulsy new equipment or more server resources just isnt going to happen
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:43:00 -
[167]
Originally by: sonofollo
well it looks like CCP are going to push through with this change so lets just pile them with ideas on how to make these new drones work.
Why bother? It's not like they listen to us anyway...
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
Trepkos
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:43:00 -
[168]
OK, Lets sum this up...
Did anyone whine about drones being unbalanced, no ofcourse not. Why? Because perhaps because they werent unbalanced. Did players seem to have a problem with drones, no they did not.
It does not matter how critical of CPU use is taken by drones but a nerf this significant should not be done to drones. You have to admit, the idea is not well-thought out. The new drone skills are fine, the new drone types are fine. The new limitations to drone control is not fine. I did not train drone interfacing V to get a lousy damage bonus, I trained Heavy Drones Op V for that. I trained drone interfacing V for the use of 10 drones. I did not buy the ishtar to only be able to use 5 specific damage dealing drones, I bought a ishtar to use 15 Tech II Heavy drones.
Ofcourse many people are responding 'Yeah. great idea.' but none of those people actually use drones as many of us other do, or else they do not fully comprehend the nerf and admit, the Missile Nerf actually ended up being better than most missile-specialists expected. This nerf on the other hand has nothing going for it.
So I plead that for once the DEV team listens to its community, its customers and overall the people that make their game what it is, and come to their senses.
Please, Please, do not let this pass.
----------------
Cosmic Fusion Killboard
|
Sean Drake
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:45:00 -
[169]
Tux man you get caught sleeping with the bosses wife/daughter because they really do not like you
PPL are going to start to dread seeing your name in a blog thread because it is becoming a good sign that something unpopular is about to happen.
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:48:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Sean Drake
Tux man you get caught sleeping with the bosses wife/daughter because they really do not like you
PPL are going to start to dread seeing your name in a blog thread because it is becoming a good sign that something unpopular is about to happen.
I thought Kieron was supposed to be the tech 2 corporate meatshield?
-Wrayeth
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:50:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 01:53:07
The idea to make drones better was here for a long time:
Introduce drones only as part of formations.
The Formation has all the stats that determine the speed, damage mod, tracking and so on, and also determines the type of drone that can be used in it (Heavy, light or medium - heavy drone formations have less speed then light drone formations...)
The drones used in the formation determine the damage output of the formation and the HP of the individual drones, but have no other stats.
The entire thing acts as one single entity except that when its hit the damage is randomly asigned to one of the drones in it.
Graphically its basicly just the drones clustered together in a formation, shaped according to the kind of formation you have given them.
The swarm could have a number of advanced controlls then also, like showing the distance between targeted objects and the swarm rather then them and the ship, so you can make drones atack what's closest to them rather then always whats closest to you.
A solution like that would be ten times better.
And the new drone types are NOT fine. It's unfair that everyone who never even thought twice about launching drones can now use their previously unused dronebay for medslots while people who always relied on their drones don't get anything extra.
|
Apache
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:52:00 -
[172]
Well I'm another person against this change.
As has been mentioned before, the drone specialist ships that rely on drones for damage aren't going to be using the EWAR drones as they need their full drone capacity for damage. Other ships, which had only a semi-useful drone bay now get drones to support their main weapons with Target Painting and Webifier drones. Even if these drones are less useful for than the mid slot modules that do the same effect, I'm sure many geddon users would agree they would rather have these EWAR drones than their current drone bay.
In regards to sentry drones, I think this is another poor idea. I am assuming they won't be instantly anchored when deployed, meaning in things like fleet battles the defender will already have their full compliment of drones anchored down before the enemy fleet jumps in. We already have massive problems with lag on jumpins to largish fleet battles, and most people are pretty good at not deploying drones before the enemy has loaded the system. With sentry drones you will pretty much have to deploy them before hand, creating an even bigger problem than we currently have.
Gate camping with sentry drones will also be a problem I would imagine. Last time I checked, once you stick drones on a target, they don't disengage unless your ship blows up or you call them off. What's to stop gate campers from deploying sentry drones, attacking their target with them, then damping the hell out of them and cloaking? You are now able to still do damage with almost no risk.
Add on top of that drones being easier to kill in fewer numbers, which simply increasing hitpoints won't fix, and the thermal/EM bonus (single damage type bonuses are no good on any ships). What about people who have spent time training the racial T2 drones (a rank 5 skill that needs to be at level 4 to use the t2 drones)?
Please rethink this. It sounds nice at a quick glance but with further thought this really doesn't adress any of the concerns you've mentioned in your blog. It simply makes drone ships less desireable to those who love them, and brings in a whole new set of problems you'll have to fix down the road.
|
Kerosene
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:52:00 -
[173]
/emote looks at his stack of wasp 2's he bought.... and cries
The only winner out of this is the person with the Ogre 2 BPO. Every other drone type producer will be shot down by this change.
Why just thermal? Just say '20% bonus to drone damage' and leave it at that.
__
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:57:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Kerosene
Why just thermal? Just say '20% bonus to drone damage' and leave it at that.
Forget that. Just drop this **** -ing stupid idea entirely.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 01:58:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Kerosene
/emote looks at his stack of wasp 2's he bought.... and cries
The only winner out of this is the person with the Ogre 2 BPO. Every other drone type producer will be shot down by this change.
Why just thermal? Just say '20% bonus to drone damage' and leave it at that.
Well, at least someone's going to become unbelievably rich because of this. Now if only I can induce him to share the wealth. I'll have to talk to him next time he's on.
-Wrayeth
|
Pestillence
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:04:00 -
[176]
/sarcasm on
More skills to train. Just what this game needs.
|
EaglesFire
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:23:00 -
[177]
I am a drone user, and have most drone skills to lv5.
I am very much ok with changing Drone Interfacing to a damage bonus, but leave the the extra drones for Gal ships alone. This way lag would be reduced, and only Gal ships would have more than 5 drones, which makes some sense, sense Gal are the drone users.
Single damage type bonus for racial ships = bad idea. Only one type of drones would every be used with Gal ships, if this is used.
Do NOT recommend 1/2'ing the drone bay. How would this help with the lag?
Other than that, the drone changes look good. Like the idea of more drone types. Though, the sentry drones should stop working or lose targeting if the mother ship cloaks or flys away to rid the game of unfair advantages with those drones.
"Knowledge is power, and the uninformed SHALL be punished!" |
Caerleus
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:28:00 -
[178]
Another nerf that makes the game more predictable.
Why not go the whole hog CCP and make each race a single damage type..:(
In fact, why not just change it to one race with one ship and one module..should reduce the lag by heaps..
And perhaps we could all fly round in just one system so there wouldnt be any need for bookmarks...
OK..sarcasm aside..this is a badly thought out change.
Concentrating damage types is just bad.
And how does the maths work out that all these new EWAR drone effects is going to lesson the lag more than having drones as they are?
Wont it increase the number of calculations that are required by targets to shoot back where before they were unaffected?
OK, so lag is a major issue and does need attention, but please, dont 'fix' something that is far from being broken.
As an idea, move agents out of hubs, restrict 1.0 to noob ships and force the populus to move out and expand...But that of course is a whole new kettle of fish...
It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required. |
Dezzereth
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:47:00 -
[179]
Ok, this does it. CCP, please remove Tuxford from any position where he can do harm.
This again is a not thought trough change that will screw up a lot of things, partly because the EW drones screw up the fragile module balance we have. Also I think you already added enough skills to learn for now. A bit of breathing space in that regard would be really nice.
This constant tinkering with the basic values of ships and the game mechanics really starts to **** me off. Yeah yeah, I know adapt or f*** off, but I am full of it, really - I adapted to so many changes and I am really starting to get sick of it. Please, settle to some final values instead of constantly (often unnecessarily) "rebalancing" the game.
Slowly it starts to appear to me that all ships of all races will be the same, and will only differ in appearance and type of damage bonus, becuase that is the road that EVE is taking with the ship changes Tuxford posted coupled with this change.
-- TOSGI Homepage -- |
Siri Danae
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:49:00 -
[180]
I used to loathe tux for the mark2 project.
Now I pity him for getting assigned to announce all the really poorly conceived ideas from the dev team.
This is bad. Its just bad.
Everytime you guys make a change like this or the minnie frig change, you promise you've checked the combat numbers, and you tell us that it balances out. But what about the combat aesthetics? 2+2=4 and 1+3=4 but they're not the same thing. Every change you've made recently makes combat far too generic, predictable and boring. You guys seem stuck on variations of 2+2 and you're forgetting that 1+3 can be fun.
Who cares about making combat last longer if players can't use their ships as they see fit? Reduced speed? Thermal damage only? 5 drones to control? Halving the Drone Bay? What did we do to you to deserve this treatment? Solve the lag issue without picking on the Gallente, thanks.
This sucks.
------
I generally assume the following:
1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers.
2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears.
3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners. |
Hllaxiu
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 02:59:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Caerleus
Why not go the whole hog CCP and make each race a single damage type..:(
I think they should just make each ship have a 5% bonus to whatever damage type their race is. So if you throw a medium beam on a thorax w/cruiser 5 you get a 25% bonus on the thermal component of the damage (so no bonus on radio crystals).
|
prsr
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:11:00 -
[182]
Well, seems there's a lot of opinions.
While the droneboats are pretty well balanced at the moment, one has to wonder how well they will be balanced with the ewar drones introduced if the number of drones they can control stays the same without restrictions on how many types it can deploy at the same time. I can see a Dominix wipe out a frigfleet using 5 webbing drones, 5 neutralizer drones, 5 target painter drones and small/medium guns in his high slots combined with a nice tank. But tbh thats just speculation until we see it on the test server.
People that try to compare this with the missile "nerf" really need to check themselves, missiles on battleships were widely acknowledged to be overpowered against small ships and way to low in skill requirements. Anyone remember one month old mission runners blasting the crap out of level 4's solo with barely 2m skillpoints in their ravens? That was taken care of very well and missiles are much more in line with turret performance, imo they are still overpowered in bs vs bs situations but thats another topic obviously.
Now drones aren't perfect either at the moment both in terms of the skilltree and the lag they induce. Changes are needed but what has been presented on the table now does not even come close to something the playerbase can reach a consensus on (other then it nerfing the crap out of droneboats for no apparent reason).
Speaking of this change and reducing lag by drones, someone else mentioned this already in the thread, every ship that has a dronebay will likely start to use the ewar drones and try to gain the function of another midslot that way. It seems unlikely that the total number of drones used in combat will go down with the introduction of the changes as they are now.
It would be nice if CCP could acknowledge the issues raised by the players here and see if they can get something running on the testserver that adresses some of the issues that surfaced here. Maybe introduce limited number of combinations of certain types of ewar and combat drones, reconsider the idea behind the single damagetype bonus for droneboats and work with that.
It's been done before.
|
Tovarishch
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:14:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Fellhand
Originally by: sonofollo
well it looks like CCP are going to push through with this change so lets just pile them with ideas on how to make these new drones work.
Why bother? It's not like they listen to us anyway...
This is true... trust me. They asked for non-paid players to provide solid numbers that missiles truly are below average... and we did.
Have they fixed them or announced that they plan to?
No.
PS. This drone nerf is a boost in disguise. Drones are going to be even better in the future.
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:19:00 -
[184]
I'm starting to believe that the devs have a "screw you" turn of mind. They announce a change, we point out that it's a ******* awful idea and they persist in pushing it through out of sheer bloody-mindedness.
I've yet to work out if this is ego, stubborness or tha fact that the devs haven't grasped that the fact we pay to play means the game isn't their personal playground anymore.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
wilson 2shoes
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:24:00 -
[185]
Would of been nice if these new drone types/changes are added into the game, firstly after they have fixed the current drones, without nerfing all ships drone bays, without nerfing max drones in space to 5 and without making dedicated drone ships over powered.
I personally trained gallente to use lots of drones 15 infact(currently 14), dont think ill bother with the extra 20 somin days now. Changing a rank 5 skill bonus's sucks big time imo, adding some so have have the choice to train it would be better, but i suppose this has been all thought through REALLY carefully!
Id prefer to have drones the way they are on my ishtar than with these new proposed changes bar one extra command LOOT, but thats just me. I did like the idear of new drone types before this completly wacky dev blog.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:50:00 -
[186]
The new drone types are the worst thing about it.
Dedicated droneships may be able to retain their damage, but they will still totaly suck since they won't be better at using the special drones then everyone else, and on top of that - if they rely on drones for damage and not their regular ship they can't suplement their combat strategy with the new drones anyways.
Basicly everyone who didn't use their dronebay before can turn it into free medslots, everyone who did has nothing to gain from the new drones.
That just sucks, droneships get totally screwed by this, and if it happens I'm gonna quit the game. I've been using a Dominix for more then a year now, even before it was the flavor of the month, and now it gets totally killed by a stupid change like that...
|
Kyguard
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:51:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Kyguard on 01/11/2005 03:51:25
This is definitely not Tux's fault. While we are blaming him for these absurd changes, someone else is behind this.
The idiot who charged him with this task is to blame, tux did a good job (better than most devs imo) in presenting his data with numbers and not just fancy words.
--
God is on the side with the best artillery |
Sarkos
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 03:59:00 -
[188]
Hey Sir_Tux, how about next time remove race specific bonuses for anyone not of that race. You know, only Amarr get ship bonus for any Amarr ship. Same for Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar. Not of the race, no bonus.......
Ok, now that I have everyone angry at me instead of you, let's talk. Yeah, this project has opened a real can of grief amongst the players. Now, I can sort of agree to the special bonus by race for damage type, just like missiles. I also see these changes doing to drones what the missile changes did for missile users. More skills to buy, at a great cost, just to be where you were before the changes. Believe me, as a Minmatar, I need all of those skills as we use projectiles, missiles and drones.
Not being a specialist race means we Minmatar have to spend a huge sum of ISK for all these special skills to stay as a peer in this game. It's rough. However, I am here now to ask that drone bays NOT be halved. I think this one point is the main focal point of most of the dissention. What is a Domi without a swarm of drones, an expensive target, that's what. Now I understand that they will be tougher and do more damage, however with only half the number in the air, they are also easier to target and destroy.
I for one will feel really dumb coming at you with my Stabber and unleashing my single medium scout drone on you, yeah, one drone. Wow. Leave the drone bay alone, or at least add a bonus for Gallente to the number of drones per skill level. Drones are, after all their main thing.
And can you people do me a favor? STOP with ALL the specialist friggin skills already. Not everyone is rolling in the ISK and it's really punishing we Minmatar who need to train almost everything.Because unlike the Amarr, we don't have an 8 turret BS, unlike the Caldari, we don't have a missile boat, and unlike the Gallente, we don't have a drone carrier. You have designed our ships to use everything, and with all these new skills being added, you people are really giving we Minmatar the worst deal ever. We have the worst tracking, the least used ships in the game, and now we get to pay three times for specialist skills to remain under par with everyone else.
Thank you for your attention
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:19:00 -
[189]
either that or if u are going to push ahead with new drones give them a great resistance to smartbombs. Or nerf smartbombs as well.
Make them harder to track. Or perhaps limite ach player to 2 specialised drones in space at ocne and leave the scouts and medium scount drones as they are a bit weaker but more numberous
Or go for the middle ground 10 drones maxiumum for the dominix and thorax (double nerf with the mk2 changes) but if the others are going to be at 5 drones max then give us a dominix and thorax per skill level of cruiser nad battleship they get one additional drone in space up to 5 more which is a total of 10 perhaps with limits on the specialised drones
While youre at it boost the dominixes NOS ability sa it will be helpful in NPC these new NOSing NPCs (blood raiders)
And perhaps give the minmatar a small boost up to 7 drones so they dont feel left out
|
Claude Leon
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:24:00 -
[190]
Hey Tux, how about you make Mrs.Piggy the head of CCP? Your making just a bad moving by doing these drone changes. For the last time alot of issues with lag are due to slow computers. People need to realise this and CCP does as well. Stop destroying the game and work on issues that need to be fixed. Like, um the fast paced combat. Argh!
===================================================
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:25:00 -
[191]
Well I wasn't going to bother posting on this subject but I will anyways.
First off people keep your personal insults towards CCP's staff to yourself. It does nothing but make you look like a spoiled little kid whos crying cause he's not getting his way.
Ive been around this game now since the beginning and with every big change its always the same crap from people.
"Don't do this or everyone will leave."
"We're the paying customer and screw you CCP if you don't listen to me."
"Wah why is my race so picked on ?"
This is and always will be CCP's game to make the way they want to. Its always been that way and I for one hope it always does. Sorry customers but you don't know half of what you think you know. Just cause you are paying money out doesnt mean you are right or even close to it. It just means you are a paying customer with the right to stop paying and go elsewhere.
Personally i'm just gonna wait for these changes and learn to use them to my advantage instead of whining and crying about how my game is gonna suck.
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:43:00 -
[192]
And yet, apparently, unlike the paying consumer of every other product in the history of the world, we have no right to voice an opinion when we believe the producers are making a big mistake.
Uncritical adulation is just as bad as unwarranted criticism, perhaps worse.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:51:00 -
[193]
Oh you have a right to voice your opinion. Just do so in a reasonable manner.
If you insult someone while stating a possible fact it doesn't matter that what you say is true or not. Just the fact you were an idiot about it matters and that person will now not care about what you have to say.
CCP may be making a mistake and they may not be. You don't know this and neither do I. If you have problems state them with thought out reasons instead of "OMG you suck CCP."
Like i said in previous post, ive been around eve for a long time now and certain things I didnt agree with when announced and even after implemented. But the vast majority of things CCP has done has bettered the game. I see no reason to start thinking that this change will all of a sudden ruin the game.
|
Claude Leon
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 04:53:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Claude Leon on 01/11/2005 04:54:03
Originally by: Balsak
Well I wasn't going to bother posting on this subject but I will anyways.
First off people keep your personal insults towards CCP's staff to yourself. It does nothing but make you look like a spoiled little kid whos crying cause he's not getting his way.
Ive been around this game now since the beginning and with every big change its always the same crap from people.
"Don't do this or everyone will leave."
"We're the paying customer and screw you CCP if you don't listen to me."
"Wah why is my race so picked on ?"
This is and always will be CCP's game to make the way they want to. Its always been that way and I for one hope it always does. Sorry customers but you don't know half of what you think you know. Just cause you are paying money out doesnt mean you are right or even close to it. It just means you are a paying customer with the right to stop paying and go elsewhere.
Personally i'm just gonna wait for these changes and learn to use them to my advantage instead of whining and crying about how my game is gonna suck.
Who the hell are you? I will say anything I want ,thank you very much.
I don't post on this dev blog threads because I am in total agreement but this one is bad at every angle. |
Pheno Xanes
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:05:00 -
[195]
Instead of the generic cookie-cutter Thermal bonus to gallente droneships, why not give them dronebay bonuses so that they can pick and choose which of the new drones they want and make a little arsenal based on them.
A Dom that holds 3 Target painter drones, 3 nos drones, 3 web drones, and 6 ogres all in different folders can customize itself to fights in an interesting way within the boundaries of the 5 drone limit.
PS what happens to the Ishkur in all of this?
|
SengH
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:06:00 -
[196]
keep the current numbers with the new drone suggestions... just introduce more effective countermeansures to their effects (ie. make ECCM actually work, also have remote stealth drones/remote eccm drones/remote tracking enhancer drones to counter the effect of ECM drones. Introduce new commands, ie BARCAP / TARCAP (barrier combat air patrol/target air patrol). Make light drones take out heavies easily. However their ineffective for taking on ships. My drones should be able to independently intercept their drones/missiles while in barcap mode.
Btw... moros with 5 drones vs 35? can you say ahahahhahahaha nerfed?
|
Shiner BockBeer
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:17:00 -
[197]
Problems reading devblog, anyone else seeing this?
Same problem in Mozilla and IE.
I click the Devblog link, I get the new window with the login prompt. I login, I click the Devblog link again, I get the login page again.
This happens no matter how I try to get to it.
I can login to charsheet, forums, and Eve insider no problems, just not Devblog.
|
The Resister
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:18:00 -
[198]
Note to devs, yeah you may be able to "work" around some problems with lag because of drones but sooner or later you'll have to fix the problem because it will never go away.
|
The Resister
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:22:00 -
[199]
Oh and before I forget, since ishtars and doms are going to be useless, give the ishtar and dom an extra turret slot with more pg and cpu so maybe we can still use these ships.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:25:00 -
[200]
yes seeing as though u are nerfing a specific drone carrier change the domi / ishtar role to being a more NOS specific role and or give it a boost like the brutix in fleet command or a % boost to remote armo tanking
|
Fillmeup
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:30:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Fillmeup on 01/11/2005 05:32:57
Ok .... I am anticipating a massive backlash on this idea.
Effectively, as many have said, those who currently don't use drone bays will be advantaged, whilst those who rely on drones are left static or worse off than before. Especially considering the need to train a buttload of skills to maintain effectiveness.
I like the new drones. I even don't mind the new skills. However, screwing over the drone boats to solve lag issues is not cool ... repeat .... NOT COOL!
This idea seems like someone did an analysis of server load and said - 'you know what, if we screw over drone users lag will decrease 4% ... ya, lets do that'. I mean WTF?!?
Drones are one of the things that are not unbalanced atm. No one complains about them (which is a feat for the devs in itself), and I understand that the new drones may introduce disharmony. However, leave a bonus for the Gallente drone boats (like thorax and domi)- they are already about to be nerfed (plate nerf anyone), lets not take away the only thing that makes them special ...
Mot a happy camper ....
Oh, and I didn't even consider the effect it has on the Gallente Moros or the new carriers .... this will just make both ships useless.
|
Mercade
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 05:52:00 -
[202]
I've had multiple arguments about these changes and no one has been able to give me any true complaint except for the damage specification of thermal bonus for gallente ships and EM for the amarr etc.
I have a person who is gallente mastered, all relevant gunery, drones, support and frig through battleship at 5. His concern was that the flavor of Gallente would be lost, that the dominix would be no different.
But honestly look at this.
Battleship - current m3 - after 50% - # of heavies
Apoc - 150 - 75 - 3 (that's 3 heavies in total not even 1 full set)
Arma - 250 - 125 - 5 (there's one full salvo of heavies no reserve)
temp - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc
typh - 350 - 175 - 7 (That's 1 salvo and 2 heavies in reserve )
rave - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc/temp)
scor - 150 - 75 - 3 (same as apoc, temp and raven)
mega - 250 - 125 - 5 (one salvo no reserver)
domi - 750 - 375 - 15 (3 full salvos of drones)
The gallente consistently have an advantage in heavy drone warfare. Coupled with the domix havin ga potency increase making their 5 not just replenishable but very dangerous.
Include in that sentry droens will probably be heavy in size the dominix will have a clear advantage in flexible planning.
For those who worry about gallente it seems evident above they will retain a good advantage if not pick up one.
For everyone else. The combination of utiltity drone types of varios kinds and the ability for them to sustain greater damage and deal it means less of a chance of total drone loss. Honestly who wants to fly an ishtar with 15 heavies that looses them in one potential smart bomb. When they could carry 5 heavies with the same power and a reserve 5 after the changes and send them into battle with potentially less losses and backup.
in the end all I have to say is.
SENTRY DRONES
for the love of god it's a defense advantage. we need more of these. Defense should have the advantage and they don't in this game. We need more ways for people to hold space like this and I don't mean when not logged on. I mean ways to promote less warp in and snipe. Sentry drones should take 15-20 seconds to anchor/unanchor.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 06:26:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 06:27:38
Originally by: Mercade
for the love of god it's a defense advantage. we need more of these. Defense should have the advantage and they don't in this game. We need more ways for people to hold space like this and I don't mean when not logged on. I mean ways to promote less warp in and snipe. Sentry drones should take 15-20 seconds to anchor/unanchor.
How is that good? A "defense advantage" is really also a gatecamping advantage...
|
Spenz
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 06:27:00 -
[204]
Mercade. First of all who complained about drones before? Nobody. The only complaint about drones was their stupid broken AI that wouldnt allow them to dock or go off on their own. Other than that there were no "OMG N3RF DR0NZ" or "DR0NZ RUIN DA GAM3" or "DRONES ARE AN 'I WIN' BUTTON!"
Now where in that dev blog do they say they are going to fix the drones ONLY problem? Nowhere. They are ruining a perfectly good setup. Drones were FINE. They were reasonably balanced compared to other things. Now not only are they adding drones that are useful to the gankers and useless to the drone users, but they are rendering 50% of the Gallente heavy fleet useless. WTF is gonna happen to the Vexor, Ishkur, Dominix, and Moros? Drones were their PRIMARY weapon, and I can tell you 5 drones will die easier than 15, no matter how beefed up they are. Why? You can target 5 drones. You CANT target 15, and smartbombs will kill 5 beefed up drones as fast as 15 regulars.
And the drone bay nerf...WTF?!! Do they realize they are rendering the drone capabilities of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and even some BS's utterly impotent.
And what about the poor people that spent months on Drone 5,Drone Interface 5, Heavy drone 5, Frigate 5, Cruiser 5, Battleship 5, and even Dreadnought 5 to use alot of drones? What about them huh? Oooh they get a thermal damage bonus whoop-de-do. They get a bonus on the easiest-to-tank damage type.
And why in gods holy name do you think sentry drones are a good idea? Are you some sort of gate-camping mofo? Its not like its bad enough now you have DRONES able to do it too. Sure from a fleet perspective its sound (though it will be even more laggy now that it was before), but from regular people that have to encounter gate-gankers it is a stupid idea. REALLY stupid.
Quit licking CCP's boots and take a better look at this change. It is wrong in every sense of the word. Utterly killing a perfectly fine game element and destroying the gallente (along with the hard work of ALOT of people) is NOT a game improvement. This is far beyond the missile nerf (which is gonna be fixed anyways). This is a totally illogical, half-thought and half-assed set up ideas that will wreck the game for alot of people.
That is simply the facts. You cant get around it no matter how many times you look at it.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 06:39:00 -
[205]
Cooooo-rect! Introducing long range sentry drones that can give you extra gank-power in fleet combat will make lag worse, not better, since drones were mostly used in small engagements, not large fleetbattles so far.
|
Agama
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 07:18:00 -
[206]
This is crazy. At first I was happy with the dev blog right up until the point of reducing drone bays, putting a hard cap of 5 max drones and completely changing skills.
I mean what is with that?
As mentioned heaps of times already.... non-drone boats will get the most benefit from this change (read nerf). With only 5 drones as a PRIMARY weapon sysytem the drone boats will be forced to use those 5 drones for damage and thats it. Where as other ships will be able to compliment their weapon systems with extra webbers etc. It would be very cool if people were still able to use there 12+ drones on the larger drone boats as they could mix up there offence with these new EW drones and have a bit of fun.
Not to mention some ships not have laughable drone bays now.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed but the poor ol rax gets a double helping with the new changes between the mk2 project (drone bay now 100m^3) but with the new proposed drone changes that will come down to 50m^3. Dont get me wrong the rax needed to be knocked down a bit cause it was a bit insane.....but have fun with those 2x heavies or 5x medium drones now boys.
Sentry dronesà.can you say more gate ganks?
Changing skills completely is nuts. And what is the point of training heavy drones up now for a 5% damage when interfacing gives your 20%?
Personally I think the reasoning for this is so lame. LAG. C'mon.... that is pathetic. ItÆs not game balance or anything like that....its lag. Well....throw some more money at it and fix it properly. Upgrade the servers etc (I know this is already planned....but maybe you need more again). Buy more servers and spread the systems out a bit more for better load balancing. This is one hell of a great game but nerfing a system that was largely fine (except some AI/drone humping issues) under the guise of system efficiency is madness.
I cannot fully express my frustration at this very silly looking move so please excuse my rambling.
'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
|
Qin Yu
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 07:33:00 -
[207]
Oh well apart from telling CCP this is a stupid idea and after my initial frustration. Here are some positive ideas.
Sentry Drones WILL be employed at gates to gank so 5 ships dropping 5 sentries at the gates means 25 drones shooting at gates and if they're left then that's 25 drones around the gates causing lag for everyone.
The numbers on some of those figures are wrong, all 5 drones all kitted with the same equipment MAY equate to 1 med slot... Im sorry this is just stupid, people will just use 5 of one type so there will be no variance.
Suggestion 1. Have drones come in "fleets" of 5 represented by 1 drone model in space. You can order the groups to do seperate things but not individual drones IN those groups. With 15 drones for example you can attack three seperate targets etc etc... For odd numbers of drone controls just fill up these three fleets until they're each at 5. Will be difficult to sort out individual damage but why not just assign 1 fleet 1 set of Shields/Armour/Hull..
Suggestion 2.
Fix you're own damn hardware before modding the game to "solve" these issues.
Suggestion 3.
STOP with the stupid module/race balancing.. Has it occured to anyone that this Universe MAY have races with a technological advantage in certain areas. Their guns MIGHT be the best in the game, but other races WILL and do have to use other tech they're specialised in to beat that technology.
Suggestion 4.
DONT you dare add tractor beams to this GAME!!
Use drones for this, lootfetcher drones... everyone wants them. Dont **** around with a high slot module that nobody is going to use because it cuts down their PVE effectiveness.. Stupidity.. This is what DRONES are for..
Suggestion 5.
Repper and cap recharger drones are ok, I'd suggest leaving EWAR out of drone usage.. Instead concentrate on other tactical bonuses that drones can do.. How about when drones are orbitting your ships they act like defender missiles and/or defence against attacking drones... About time we had some good defensive units considering Defender missiles dont work anyway. I just want to send my drones to be able to defend a friendly target.
Suggestion 6.
I spent 4 months and nearly 5 million skill points training Drone skills for the EXCLUSIVE purpose of being able to use Drone ships to their maximum potential. If CCP want to change the skills to something else then I WANT my skill points back and into something else... I wouldnt of trained them at all if I'd known this would of happened.. Three months of free skill points please....
Regards
|
Itisusia
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 07:46:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Latex Mistress
I'd like all the SP's I have in drones back please. You may distribute them evenly between Gunnery and Spaceship Command.
Thanks,
LM
Me too please!
Utterly retarded change. I sure hope you're going to do something about blobs causing lag then too. "Due to the nature of blobs half your ships will be removed and the rest doubled in hp / damage. Problem solved guys!" |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 07:50:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Qin Yu
Suggestion 4.
DONT you dare add tractor beams to this GAME!!
Use drones for this, lootfetcher drones... everyone wants them. Dont **** around with a high slot module that nobody is going to use because it cuts down their PVE effectiveness.. Stupidity.. This is what DRONES are for..
That entire argument doesn't make any sense. You say introducing a highslot module for loot retrival is stupid because people don't want to give up their highslots, but drone users should give up their drones to get loot faster?
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes this change so annoying and crippling to the droneships, just because most people don't use their dronebay nice toys are added that can go in it, but people who do use their dronebay don't get to use them because they already have combat drones in it...
Hey, maybe CCP can give my Dominix 8 meslots, to make up for the 5 ewar drones I can't launch because I needed to use my dronebay for damage dealing. Yea, I'd acctually go with that, if my Dominix gets 8 meslots I accept the changes.
|
Prydeless
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 07:58:00 -
[210]
If this is a lag issue why not just blow all the cans in the universe that are anchored
|
Apache
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:05:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Prydeless
If this is a lag issue why not just blow all the cans in the universe that are anchored
Yes please, and while you're at it how about you pop all those thousands of abandoned drones that are littered all over space. You know, those things that apparently are responsible for eating up the system resources?
|
ThunderGodThor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:14:00 -
[212]
OK this has to be on scale of the ****** up missle nerf. If this hasnt been said is that them drones are the slowest drones out there. Not only that the ogre's get stuck on them all the time making them WORTHLESS. This has been said the most heavly tanked damage in the game is Them. What is also nice is that i can use 8 drones in a bs u can have 8 heavys and then ether have 10 lights or 5 med for some frig defence. So nerfing drone bay sucks too. Now if you want to work on the Lag problem try getting rid of The ancorded can's that havent been used in months.
|
Face Lifter
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:16:00 -
[213]
I think the drone changes could work, except for one thing:
giving drone ships a damage bonus to 1 damage type is a horrible nerf to those ships. Drones by their nature allow the user to control damage type. The reason why Dominix and Thorax are so effective now is that they can choose a different damage type on their drones. By limiting them all to thermal - the most commonly tanked damage type, you are nerfing specialized drone ships in ways they don't deserve.
btw, missile boats have same problem |
fairimear
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:36:00 -
[214]
the only idea even worth salvaging is the sentry drones.
good idea, but needs limits.
Mainly you can only deploy if you have system control (soverenty).
Please resize your signature image, the filesize limit is 24,000 bytes - Imaran
|
Katane Usamo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:45:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Katane Usamo on 01/11/2005 08:44:58
I must admit that as a Caldari specialist I initially felt a bit of petty pleasure at these changes (particularly the Thermal damage bonus), but still, this is just ridiculous. I don't even fly Gallente at all, but these changes just mike me feel sick inside. A Moros with 5 drones? :o
1) If this 5-drone limit is because of server lag, it's silly; drones don't really lag at the moment except in blobs, and blobs lag for their own reasons that will never change.
2) There is a powerful psychological effect and satisfaction when you launch a swarm of drones at a target; you can't just give every half the number of drones and twice the damage and call it even. Even if it were perfect equivalent, it would take the spirit out of the Gallente race IMO.
Hell, why not just put everything into one big drone that did Thermal damage? Call it "Gallente Drone I".
3) I said even if it were equivalant, which it isn't in the slightest. Now every Gallente drone carrier must use all Ogre drones or be gimped; their penalty for using EW drones is massively higher than any other race. All this while all other ships have their setups options expanded wildly with all these new drones. Doesn't it seem stupid that when all these cool drones are finally released, everyone can use them well except for the Gallente?
I simply cannot concieve where this change came from. I love the idea for special drones, but cannot understand why this drone control change was warranted at all... who asked for this? I don't think even the die-hard Gallente nerf supporters would have suggested this. :(
|
Kuolematon
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 08:46:00 -
[216]
Heh so it seems to be true. NERF-Online
Cycle of Nerfbat is following: Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar .. so Minmatar, prepare for your share of dev's love
________________________________________________________
Freedom is illusion created by weird voices in my head |
SengH
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 09:13:00 -
[217]
lol id hate to be the new guy working at CCP if that what happens to tuxford(him being the new guy)
CCP Idea Devlopment meeting #9101
Oveur: uhh okay yeah who wants to blog about these drone changes. Not It
TomB: Not It
Kieron: Not It
Hammerhead: Not It
Zrakor:Not It
LeMonde: Not It
Tuxford: Not It @#%!^@$^%$@&%$#@&%$#&$#^%$#@@ why me?
TomB: Cus your the new guy. Ahahaha GG with the forums.
|
Spenz
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 09:18:00 -
[218]
Defending macro miners? You do know that macros are considered cheats in EVERY MMORPG in existance right? I dont give a damn if they pay their sub like everyone else. Hell I dont give a damn if they pay 3 times what I pay. The fact is they sell ISK on ebay using cheat programs. They make money off the game. Is that right? Uhhh nope.
They are also a cause of lag. Now what do you want. Nerf drones or get rid of macro cheaters? Hmm tough choice.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 09:38:00 -
[219]
mmm i think the drone nerf is in i still reckon that by destroying specialised drone boats ie dominix and ishtar and thorax that they should boost them in other ways.
Oh and bring back harvestor drones this will keep the miners happy
|
Joachim Laurent
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:08:00 -
[220]
As many other has pointed out:
dominix drone damage bonus +50% = old damage, only limited to thermal.... This is a BAD thing since versatility is FUN.
Now for something that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
dominix drone hp bonus = nonexistent? Have I understood this correctly? The hp bonus to make up for the 1/2 drones will apply to drones on all ships, and wether this bonus is +100% hp or not the dominix will be nerfed with this. Why? Consider a hp bonus of +100%:
15 (drones)* HP = 15*HP (d'uh)
5 (drones)* 2 (100% bonus) = 10*HP (a reduction of 1/3)
Now, I do not want to discourage all change in the game. Frankly, doing so would be quite silly. What I do want is for the devs to think long and hard about what they are doing. I mainly object to the lack of versatility introduced by damage specific bonuses, but I'm also afraid the balance will be scewed these changes. For instance, drones with web? Byebye blasters!
I for one am hesitant in training gallente skills until I see exactly where the devs are going with this.
|
Spenz
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:15:00 -
[221]
Yes I have ceased all drone training until I know what CCP is gonna do about this abomination of a "improvement". Luckly Im not that skilled. Only have hvy drone 3 and drone interface 4. I feel sorry for the guys that have 5 across the board.
|
Virida
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:16:00 -
[222]
If this makes fleet PvP doable, i think its ok. I guess that is the reason behind it? cleaning up so an 50 domi blob dont take down an node if all hit drones?
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:22:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Althou why didn't they mention something like this in FanFest2005? I'm pretty angry about that!
Which is why they didn't mention it at FanFest. Would have been funny to see "Online game players riot" in the newspaper.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:28:00 -
[224]
Oh and if the problem is lag, how about you buy some more ******* hardware.
I can't wait till you remove ROF on turrets (due to lag), reduce the number of turrets (due to lag) etc. Oh wow my BlandCannon II got a higher damage mod and my ROF bonuse got changed to a thermal damage increase. \0/
Oh and it's going to be fun waiting 6 months until they buff drones back to pre-change levels, because as the missiles changes show CCP can't do these sorts of changes without breaking things horribly.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Aelku
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:29:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Katane Usamo
2) There is a powerful psychological effect and satisfaction when you launch a swarm of drones at a target; you can't just give every half the number of drones and twice the damage and call it even. Even if it were perfect equivalent, it would take the spirit out of the Gallente race IMO.
Hell, why not just put everything into one big drone that did Thermal damage? Call it "Gallente Drone I".
Well said.
Some are putting good arguments about therm damage,etc... . But not all players are about PvP min/max, some simply play a race for the RP background and cool factor. I choose Gallente NOT because it is the "PvP master" or "PvE King" but simply because the background was cool and the idea of fleet carriers.
Star Wars/Galactica without the horde of fighters?
Pear Harbor attacked by five Japanese planes?
Even if a Zero becomes a nuke B-2 or a Tie packs the power of the Deathstar, it's still wrong for the ones who seek to RP a "carrier Captain".
Remember a game is not only about lag-accounting and best/worst "character/ship of the Month", a part of Dream is also needed.
Going back to Homeworld/Freelancer, less online but more Epic.
|
Dezzereth
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:34:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Balsak
Ive been around this game now since the beginning and with every big change its always the same crap from people.
"Don't do this or everyone will leave."
"We're the paying customer and screw you CCP if you don't listen to me."
"Wah why is my race so picked on ?"
True, but most changes had a valid reason. Below a few examples.
1.) Tracking of guns was screwed, so that L guns could hit frigs below 10 km easily -> CCP changed that rightfully.
2.) NPCs were uninteresting -> CCP added "healing" ability and Commander Spawns.
3.) Pulse Lasers were too powerful -> CCP, again rightfully balanced (NOT nerfed) them.
4.) Highways killed local markets and 0.0 chockepoints were camped -> CCP changed the system layouts and added entrypoints to 0.0 (I know the changes were not perfect, and the laggy trade hubs even got more, but the intention was rightful).
5.) Missiles. They were unbalanced. Definitely. Torpedos combined with a Raven were the _berkillers of Frigs, and other ships -> CCP devised a system which would leave Missiles more balanced. Again the solution was not perfect, but it offered the best combinations of balance and serverload.
6.) Gankings and too short fights are a problem, atm. Again CCP rightfully tries to solve that problem by limiting useful number of daamge mods and boosting defense. It could lead to a lot of stalemates, but that is just a theory, (so I could be (and most likely am) wrong), and the intention of that change is a good one.
All of these changes had a large number of vocal opposition (save maybe the npc change), but if you thought the problem through, then you had to admit that something had to be done about the current sate of matters. The solutions were mainly alright, though theere were often compromises.
The ship changes (mk2) and the now proposed Drone changes have no real reason to exist. They are thrown at us without any good reason. Frigs and Cruisers, aside from a few smaller issues, are quite well balanced, and need no tinkering around. Drones are one of the most balanced thing in the game tbh, and the game defintely needs no additional ganker tool like that stupid sentry drone, or "an additional medslot". The thin veil of legimitacy is server load, but some of these drones will also create additional lag.
These changes will only make EVE more "washed out".
Also don't forget the "great" new font CCP wanted to introduce on us. If it wouldn't have been for all the people complaining then we would have that eye cancer causing abdominations in the market and asset part.
Originally by: Balsak
This is and always will be CCP's game to make the way they want to. Its always been that way and I for one hope it always does. Sorry customers but you don't know half of what you think you know. Just cause you are paying money out doesnt mean you are right or even close to it. It just means you are a paying customer with the right to stop paying and go elsewhere.
Yet everyone has the right to say what they think, be it crap or not. Also a lot of people (me included) are complaining, not because they beloved ship gets "nerfed", but because we like EVE. If we wouldn't then we couldn't care less.
Originally by: Balsak
Personally i'm just gonna wait for these changes and learn to use them to my advantage instead of whining and crying about how my game is gonna suck.
A very noble approach, yet it will not alleviate the basic problems of this change.
I am defending CCP and CCP's POV whenever possible, also in other Forums, but I also voice my opinion when I think they are doing something wrong. And this goes into the wrong direction. In this thread some people made much more intelligent posts than me by actually giving some good solutions to the lag issue. CCP, look them through and rather consider them than this changes.
-- TOSGI Homepage -- |
Yith Solarius
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:49:00 -
[227]
I don't feel that for the T1 drone ships the thermal only bonus is terrable beacuse it matches how a lot of the rest of eve functions. I would like the see the T2 drone ship (ishtar) given a %damage bonus for all damage types, much like i would like the cerberus given a %damage for all missile damage types.
That would be ok i think
Todays Idea: Eye for an eye |
Rodj Blake
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:52:00 -
[228]
If drone-induced lag has been such a great a problem, then why introduce a ship that can control 35 drones in the first place?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
ChefAce
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:04:00 -
[229]
Edited by: ChefAce on 01/11/2005 11:05:22
Get rid of all the space junk first!
i.e. Abandoned cans, drones, corpses etc etc
That would probably solve most if not all of the lag issues.
Edit:
Tuxford, you poor bastard
-------------
|
Antipodean Minx
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:15:00 -
[230]
Way to go and totally nerf the dominix. 10% bonus to thermal damage? are you insane??
|
The Masia
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:16:00 -
[231]
Edited by: The Masia on 01/11/2005 11:17:47
This change is very bad. Drones shouldn't be a main weapon that gives free advantages without skill training like EW. CCP please rethink this system. It's not correct nor skilled.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:17:00 -
[232]
ok so reduce drones but not to the extreme levels proposed more in the order of 6-15 at absolute most and with specialised skills or ships
Lag reduction can be done with the simple suggestion and hte more ratioanl suggest of simply moving some of the agents out of the 5 top systesm and moving them to the lowest 5 high sec systems with stations. That arent used. Spread the missions out like us in low sec to 5-6 jumps from station hub ands till maintain short ones sa well but for the busy systems if the players will not move of their own accord them if they are doing missions make them move around. Shift some of the NPC goods around as well in the same manner - it will discourage less hub systems.
|
Zeb Boregar
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:31:00 -
[233]
First of April 2007 Tuxford new cruiser Dev Blog
As we all have seen what were the Kali's cruisers wars, it's time to clear the thing. So in the next patch, you will find only one brand new cruiser : The Monos.
The great advantage of this new cruiser is that all the races can fly her. Well, it's logical as she is the only one available.
4 high slots, 2 turrets hardpoints, 1 launcher hardpoint.
3 mid slots,
4 low slots,
cargo bay : 150m3
drone bay : 50m3
capacitor : 1000
CPU : 300
powergrid : 775
Bonus? What bonus?
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:37:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/11/2005 11:37:33
Look, 5 drones is fine, utterly and perfectly fine.
You'll just need to change some specific details on this plan and it's a go as far as I am concerned.
I already gave the details:
- Extra drone hp bonus for drone carriers
- no racial damage restriction
- +1 non-combat drone per lvl bonus for all drone carriers
et voila, bring it on.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
|
Sklitakling
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:41:00 -
[235]
Feel the Scorp and the BB will become rather useless if EW drones are introduced. Every ship with a dronebay will have EW now :/ Makes it rather pointless that you don't need to sacrifice anything to fit a ship for EW.
|
Rufus Roughneck
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:48:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Sklitakling
Feel the Scorp and the BB will become rather useless if EW drones are introduced. Every ship with a dronebay will have EW now :/ Makes it rather pointless that you don't need to sacrifice anything to fit a ship for EW.
My guess would be that 3-5 EW drones = 1-2 medslots maybe in effectivity.
That wouldnt be too bad now would it ?
|
Longasc
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:57:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Longasc on 01/11/2005 11:59:19
Edited by: Longasc on 01/11/2005 11:59:08
I think we forget about one thing while discussing this:
1. The user's Drone Interface. It needs a major overhaul, too.
Right now its attack, return and orbit, return to bay, scoop to bay (redundant if the command before would work on slow heavy drones, always have to scoop them).
2. The damage-type specific bonus - why not a generic? OR better something else perhaps.
3. The sentry drone looks like a gate camper's toy, I am not too fond of it! Was the plan not to make combat take place more all over the place and not mainly at gates?
4. -> we need a better drone interface to use all these nice new toys. See point 1. :)
Still, it must be considered to give drone carriers some more love. Even with damage bonus, its a bit weird that a Dominix cannot carry more drones as a Geddon (5 - even) or even Apoc (3 -> explanation: 3x25=75, current bay size 150/2 as stated in the blog).
5. The removal of all Minmatar players should also help to reduce lag. :)
6. All drone carriers, Dominix, Arbitrator etc. must be balanced too, if drones get changed this dramatically.
|
Kanshin Dredox
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:59:00 -
[238]
Well, question? Why so big nerf to mining drones?
Arbitrator with 15 T2 mining drones was resonable mining cruiser, now it will be able only to use 5 + 100% bomus from drone interface making it only = 10.
So, mining drones going to be nerfed by 33%?
And whot about harverster drones? Cutting drone bays of barges in half will make it imposible to control 5 harvester drones.
|
Ticondrius
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:02:00 -
[239]
If by some off chance that Tux will only read this thread, here's a link to my idea for a better nerf/boost for drones: Linkage
|
Sklitakling
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:05:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Rufus Roughneck
Originally by: Sklitakling
Feel the Scorp and the BB will become rather useless if EW drones are introduced. Every ship with a dronebay will have EW now :/ Makes it rather pointless that you don't need to sacrifice anything to fit a ship for EW.
My guess would be that 3-5 EW drones = 1-2 medslots maybe in effectivity.
That wouldnt be too bad now would it ?
True. Balancing is, as always, the key. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. This is a big change though, affecting about every ship in the game and the use of them, so no drink'n'code while implementing this guys!
|
Kerosene
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:14:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/11/2005 11:37:33
Look, 5 drones is fine, utterly and perfectly fine.
You'll just need to change some specific details on this plan and it's a go as far as I am concerned.
I already gave the details:
- Extra drone hp bonus for drone carriers
- no racial damage restriction
- +1 non-combat drone per lvl bonus for all drone carriers
et voila, bring it on.
That'll just about do me.
Also the guy who said 'Feel the Scorp and the BB will become rather useless if EW drones are introduced. Every ship with a dronebay will have EW now :/ Makes it rather pointless that you don't need to sacrifice anything to fit a ship for EW.'
Yep. Agreed. Not only that but if a domi can field 5 heavy drones after the change, will that mean 4 heavy drones + 1 EW? 3 Heavy drones + 2 EW? Why do the drone carriers need to lose firepower to gain EW drones when all other ships will be launching their EW drones where they ordinairily wouldn't have launched any?
__
|
Roshan longshot
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:15:00 -
[242]
Well eight pages of *****en and moaning....GET THE HINT? This nerf is not a good idea. RETHINK what you are about to do.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
queen'beee
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:20:00 -
[243]
Edited by: queen''beee on 01/11/2005 12:23:51
The change is good!
You are all not looking at the bigger picture. Drones now can have specialiased purposes. This adds variety to the game and gives more than what was there before.
Server Performance is increased especially in fleet battles where everyone has a habit to just drop thier drones and forget about them.
There is no rule that says gallente should have the most drones, but through specialization they should have the best drones, and that is what you will continue to have through % in racial bonus damage.
This isn't a dominix nerf, you get more damage for your skills, more than any other BS's drones, and dont forget drones afect all players so if you think its bad for you image the raven or scorp.
Look at the raven, after the super missile nerf it became 95% reliant on drones against little ships, dont you think the change will hurt the raven more than the dominix?
Everything is moving to specialization so there is no common 'win' button. This is good.
Thermal damage on gallente drones is GOOD. Stop whining and understand that each race has a specific racial type of damage thats how its supposed to be. You still can use other drones just know that thermal will give you the best damage output as bonus.
I seriously dont understand why you are all being crybabies, would you prefer 15 lag drones not doing much at all except lagging everyone in a fight, or 5 nice trimmed drones with capabilities that free up your mid slots and are stronger.
Look at the bigger picture and stop whining.
|
Famine Aligher'ri
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:23:00 -
[244]
This change is BAD!
IÆm going to try to explain why this new change is bad but fear my voice will be washed away in the ocean of replies but oh well. Guess it doesnÆt matter anyways.
The whole idea of reducing the number of drones is a cool idea. The thought of just giving a ship like 5 drones but the skills determine the damage of 15 drones is really cool. It will reduce lag and give people more thought on when to deploy their drones out.
I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones youÆre adding. YouÆre adding in a number of ôElectronic Warfareö drones but you donÆt say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you donÆt say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.
On top of this, I have like 2.5 million skill points in ôElectronic Warfareö. I fly some frigate setups using ECM. Like for example, my ECM cheetah that uses 2 ECM modules. The only way I can run this setup is if I get the BEST named ECM racial in the game as well fit all my lows with cap power relays because even with skills itÆs still a deep amount of cap to run every 20 seconds. I have to do a lot of sacrificing and money spending to use my cool electronic warfare frigates. Now you just throw out these cool drones for freeà Not all frigates even cruisers have drone bays ok?
So I wonÆt jump off the deep end or anything being I donÆt know ALL the information but if itÆs just what I think it is. Then all drone ships in the game especially frigates will seriously have free boosts to there ships and use less tactical skill doing it. You know fitting for a fight.
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
|
Roshan longshot
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:31:00 -
[245]
Combat does not last long enough to deploy drones. Unless your a gate camper, there is no reason to take a few extra million in drones out to PVP.
Drones are mostly used for mining, and NPC'ng.
So why the nerf?
I see no reason for it. Just another lazy way of trying to "Fix" a problem that is caused by other factors.
Removeing 75% of my combat abililty has made this character useless in anything but small ship PVP.
So if your going to screw up my trained skills like this every time you "THINK" you have a solution, how about transfering all the skill points to one of my alts?
This is getting REALLY FRECKING OLD people.
/emote wonders if his EQ account is still there?
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
Akira Yamata
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:34:00 -
[246]
Its not so bad, i think tux is very brave being the messenger for these type of changes.
I'm open minded enough to give them a try |
Dufas
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:35:00 -
[247]
it sounds like a missle nerf....more skills to do to get back what we already have and in some cases make it worse...another useless change they make instead of adding stuff that was suppose to be released a year ago...thanks dev's once again your screwing everyone in the form of additions to make things better
__________
|
Ticondrius
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:36:00 -
[248]
*Finally took the time to read every page of posts in this topic...
OMG...RABBLE! RABBLERABBLE!! Is the first thing that comes to mind.
|
Sarkos
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:38:00 -
[249]
Well, if the drone changes are suposed to reduce the lag, then they have targeted the wrong culprit. Bookmarks are the cause for fleet battle lag. Take from 50-200 ships, all in the same general location, all with about 1000 bookmarks and there is where the lag comes from, not the several hundred drones.
Any lag from drones can also be countered by displaying 1 icon per 5 drones. Put an option in the graphics menu to how many drones per flight (25%, 50%. ect) with a max output of 5 icons. This way drone carriers would still launch thier 30 drones, but only 5 icons appear, each representing 6 drones.
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
|
Benilopax
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:39:00 -
[250]
It looks like ccp are struggling with server load and so have changed it to buy some time. That is fair enough but i think the dom should get 10% bonus on all dmg types.
Also what about carriers? Will they only have 5 fighters?
|
Jernau Gurgeh
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:45:00 -
[251]
Calm down everbody, I've worked out what this is all about.
The dev blog was posted on a Monday.
Mangus Thermopyle usually posts his ideas on a Monday.
Mangus Thermopyle did not post yesterday.
We can therefore conclude that Tuxford is Mangus Thermopyle's alt.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Pheno Xanes
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:54:00 -
[252]
I think you can boil down most of the complaints to:
*People don't want the "thermal damage only" bonus to Gallente droneships.
*Changing drone interfacing away from +1 drone per level seems unnecessary because drones aren't used in combat all that often except by drone ships and certain battleships.
*We'd rather have "weaker" EWAR drones and deploy lots of them than have strong EWAR drones but a max of 5.
*People who spent lots of time on drone interfacing V, BS V, etc. in order to get the extra drones don't have huge advantages over the rest of Eve, so why nerf them by making it so that their enemies can now target and focus fire on their 5 drones to strip them of offense/defense? When I have a Dom with 14 drones out, people either pack smartbombs, stay out of range, or go for my ship - not my drones for the most part.
|
Pheno Xanes
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:56:00 -
[253]
Oh and one more thing - halving dronebays means that when you run from a fight and leave your drones behind, you DON'T have reserve drones in most ships so you're screwed even harder.
|
Sklitakling
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:16:00 -
[254]
My last rant on this.. promise
It has been mentioned already, but I feel it is an important point to make:
EW, as it is now, use cap. Cap that would otherwize be used to tank or to deal damage. If you get EW capability with drones that don't use cap, grid or cpu, you must balance all the ships in the game to compensate. Some ships will have the dronebay to effectively gank/tank + EW, while others will be limited to EW OR gank/tank ..
While I like balance changes and new content, I think this really need some rethinking from the devs..
|
BillyBong2
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:27:00 -
[255]
I missed something.
What is going to happen to the Gallente HAC - Ishtar.
That ship is going have to be completely re-designed?
|
Bsport
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:45:00 -
[256]
Edited by: Bsport on 01/11/2005 13:46:33
Originally by: BillyBong2
I missed something.
What is going to happen to the Gallente HAC - Ishtar.
That ship is going have to be completely re-designed?
tbh i feel so sick with these changes i think i'll be selling mine, whats the point of owning a drone ship now, i love using 15 drones, but soon u might as well go for anormal HAC and use normal guns. then at least ppl cant kill 3/15 of your damage output in a single pop, were as its only 1/15 of your damage output with a single dead drone
--------
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:59:00 -
[257]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 01/11/2005 14:02:11
Originally by: Noriath
Cooooo-rect! Introducing long range sentry drones that can give you extra gank-power in fleet combat will make lag worse, not better, since drones were mostly used in small engagements, not large fleetbattles so far.
LMAO. And people don't use them to lag other fleets out.
Clue. Not. You. Gets.
PS, versatility allways costs. You get 10% to one type, or 5% to all types. Pick.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Famine Aligher'ri
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:00:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Sklitakling
My last rant on this.. promise
It has been mentioned already, but I feel it is an important point to make:
EW, as it is now, use cap. Cap that would otherwize be used to tank or to deal damage. If you get EW capability with drones that don't use cap, grid or cpu, you must balance all the ships in the game to compensate. Some ships will have the dronebay to effectively gank/tank + EW, while others will be limited to EW OR gank/tank ..
While I like balance changes and new content, I think this really need some rethinking from the devs..
That's what I'm talking about **** damage whines. Who cares about damage if your opponent is totaly crippled by damn ECM drones and Damps when I spent Millions of SP in EW to suffer cap drain.
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
|
Hans Roaming
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:02:00 -
[259]
5% to all types would suit me down to the ground to be honest.
El Presedente
Anti Pirate? Tired of sec hits? Join us for free wars! |
Summersnow
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:04:00 -
[260]
Ship Drone Bay Heavies
Armageddon 250 10
Apocalypse 150 6
Scorpion 150 6
Raven 150 6
Dominix 750 30
Megathron 250 10
Typhoon 350 14
Tempest 150 6
Amarr / Caldari make out very very good by this change as they could not control the max # of drones previously.
As usual the minies can't make up there mind and one is better and one gets a huge nurf.
The gallante just take a cattle prod up the ass on this change, whereas all there enemies get a buff they take a nurf. ( recieving the same dps as before against one of the more hardened damage types as opposed to all enemies geting dps buffs is a NURF )
Do the same thing for all classes of ships and I expect all the way down the line the normally drone weak amarr just got a big dps bonus and the drone dependant gallente just got the shaft.
|
Remedial
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:18:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Summersnow
Ship Drone Bay Heavies
Armageddon 125 5
Apocalypse 75 3
Scorpion 75 3
Raven 75 3
Dominix 375 15
Megathron 125 5
Typhoon 175 7
Tempest 75 3
Fixed because drone bays are being halved.
Doesn't look so bad now, does it?
|
Qin Yu
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:21:00 -
[262]
Another set of ideas..
Why not have all of these specialist T2 drones be twice the size of normal drones in terms of displacement?
Small 10m3
Medium 30m3
Large 50m3
Suggestion 2.
Keep with the drone fleet idea, for RP purposes we can launch hundreds of drones but they're only represented by 5 sets of models on the game client..
Suggestion 3. Modules
These should be like command modules perhaps requiring a high slot instead and require Cap to activate. Or be passive (Give Drone ships an additional bonus in CPU reduction of these instead)
Drone Telemetry Uplink
Increases Drone range by 10% (This max range derived off of current range boosted by Scout Drone skills dont want this too high though because it'll equate to the Ishtar's main bonus.)
Drone swarm AI core
Makes drone swarms more co-ordinated and intelligent. (Basically adds a percentage to fall-off and damage per level) Keep the proposed damage type changes but Gallente pilots can fit this module to get SOME bonus with their non-racial drones.
Drone maintenance array small, medium, large
A smart bomb like effect that repairs drones up to associated ranges. That or have them repaired internally.
(I like the idea of recalling drones and having them nesting in my bays being fixed)
Aegis Missile defence AI
Provides a 1% chance per drone to damage incoming missiles = to a defender. (see drone proposals)
Interception Tactics Core
Increase sentry Drone damage reduction bonus by 1%/level
I'll think up a few more soon
Suggestion 4. New drones and ideas for the proposed ones
EWAR is a big issue here. How about rather than targetted ECM from each drone have a really weak burst ECM and the skills are again like Smartbombs decrease activation times between pulses.
Warp Stabiliser Drones
Self explanatory....
Sentry Drones
Drones that dont NEED to be deployed when launch but set to DEFEND a target. Once in place they can defend against attacking drones, and/or provide a percentage chance to intercept incoming fire be it from ANY weapon..
Sand-caster Drone (Amarr) 2% reduction in EM damage/drone
Patriot Drone (Caldari) 2% reduction in Kin damage/drone
Anti-Radiation (Gallente) 2% reduction in Therm damage/drone
Ablative screen (Minmatar) 2% reduction in Exp damage/drone
Sounds a little anti-Caldari, especially with the module that increases the chance to intercept missiles. However, the chances are only very slight in all senses and the range can be restricted. Perhaps the module only allows a long time between attempts...
Remember, if these drones were much larger then the chances would be miniscule but it could lead towards some interesting tactics.. Damnit watched too much Babylon 5...
Suggestion 5.
Specialist Drone skills
Logistics Drones: +3% effectiveness/level
EWAR Drones: +1 EWAR Drone/level
Sentry Drones: +1 Sentry Drone/level
Co-ordinated Drone defence
(high requirements)
Increase effectiveness of Interception tactics core and Aegis Missile defence by 100% per level.
Drone co-ordinated strike
Increase effictiveness of Drone swarm AI core byt 100%/level.
See where im going with this... Anything good here?
|
Wild Rho
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:22:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
This change is BAD!
IÆm going to try to explain why this new change is bad but fear my voice will be washed away in the ocean of replies but oh well. Guess it doesnÆt matter anyways.
The whole idea of reducing the number of drones is a cool idea. The thought of just giving a ship like 5 drones but the skills determine the damage of 15 drones is really cool. It will reduce lag and give people more thought on when to deploy their drones out.
I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones youÆre adding. YouÆre adding in a number of ôElectronic Warfareö drones but you donÆt say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you donÆt say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.
On top of this, I have like 2.5 million skill points in ôElectronic Warfareö. I fly some frigate setups using ECM. Like for example, my ECM cheetah that uses 2 ECM modules. The only way I can run this setup is if I get the BEST named ECM racial in the game as well fit all my lows with cap power relays because even with skills itÆs still a deep amount of cap to run every 20 seconds. I have to do a lot of sacrificing and money spending to use my cool electronic warfare frigates. Now you just throw out these cool drones for freeà Not all frigates even cruisers have drone bays ok?
So I wonÆt jump off the deep end or anything being I donÆt know ALL the information but if itÆs just what I think it is. Then all drone ships in the game especially frigates will seriously have free boosts to there ships and use less tactical skill doing it. You know fitting for a fight.
I agree with famine here, this really penalises ships that don't have drone bays (such as mallers and a few frigates) compared to the other ships in the same tier that do have drone bays.
If these new drones are going to be ingame then the player using them should have to fit high/mid/low slot mods to allow them to deploy the drones (i.e: EW Drone Control Mod for the midslots). A play using these new drones should have to sacrifice somthing on their ship setup to get the benefit.
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:38:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
I really wish you gave us more information on these special drones youÆre adding. YouÆre adding in a number of ôElectronic Warfareö drones but you donÆt say if they require special skills to use these or not. Then you donÆt say the sizes of these drones because some frigates might be able to fit these. Which I assume they will because some frigates have rather large drone bays.
Checking information 4tw: Drone Thread
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:42:00 -
[265]
Most ships sacrifice something for their drone bay. While the Maller cannot utilise drones, it has more slots than any other cruiser.
These instinctive "Oh Noes" answers are quite funny. Especially the "CCP ruined EVE with this change" and the "I cancel my account" ones...
These ideas are up for testing, people. Instead of crying, how about jumping on SiSi as soon as the new drones are there and seeing for yourself? Unfortunately, people believe that making retarded threats and unfounded whines are superiour to a real discussion.
|
Hohenheim OfLight
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:45:00 -
[266]
Originally by: kieron
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
With post's like that i can see why.
Lets nerf drones so that people have to pay to play for another 2 months of skilling to get back to what they had, in the 4 months i have played this game, the whole focus of devs seems to be pushing skill time to the maxium.
Let see how much longer we can drag skills out for. Seem's to be the one and only goal, Of the dev team.
|
Thesalaus
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:52:00 -
[267]
Edited by: Thesalaus on 01/11/2005 15:55:01
This is not RIGHT!
I specialized in gallente for their superior drone control abilities. Taking drone interface, scout drone, heavy drones, gallente battleship and HAC skill all to lvl 5! Not to mention the drone specialization skills to lvl 4.
Now 2 years after release you want to implement this change. Just not right.
Limiting drone carries to 5 drones is not right.
Race specific drone damage bonus is not right.
Halving drone bay is not right.
Changing the drone interface skill is not right.
Why not just bind drones into squads so that in every aspect they act and perform as one model/entity that I could live with.
Not to mention you've taken the ONE thing that was special about the drone carries and thrown it out the window (the swarm) leaving no clear reason why to pilot a drone carrier over any number of other ships that totally outclass them in EVERY respect.
I don't even begin to claim to know any of the tech issues contributing to lag in battles ect. IÆm just voicing my displeasure at this drastic change that I've invested ALOT of training into ,which basically nerfs my character.
Oberon Inc Website
Oberon Sales Page
Pain |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 15:59:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Roshan longshot
Combat does not last long enough to deploy drones. Unless your a gate camper, there is no reason to take a few extra million in drones out to PVP.
Right. You are a moron.
Vexor, Dominix, Ishtar.
Every kill I have got in my geddon recently was partially thanks to drones. Which I dropped *after* warping to my target. It takes two seconds to deploy drones and click "attack".
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:05:00 -
[269]
Edited by: theRaptor on 01/11/2005 16:06:50
[REMOVED due to posting accident]
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:06:00 -
[270]
All the people *****ing about EW drones don't get it. Nearly all the drone ships are *also* EW ships (or most of the standard fittings are). Unless they are being purely used to support a fleet, they won't be able to use EW drones and kill things.
The real horror will be EW Armageddons.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Alex Harumichi
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:18:00 -
[271]
There's a lot of analysis of the problems with this change in the ships & modules forum sticky, go read if you're interested.
Now that Tux has changed the racial bonus to a general bonus, things aren't quite as bad... but there's still a problem.
In a nutshell, the drone carrier ships will be the ones least able to use the new drone types. Why? Because their design is based on their using drones as primary weapons (they have crappy grid, etc, to reflect this). A Dom which uses non-damage drones is going to be losing a *lot* of firepower.
Contrast to a Geddon, for an easy example. It can now deploy 5 x EW drones, with no loss to firepower. Other similar examples are easy to find.
So we have the weird situation where the "drone specialist" ships are the last ships to reasonably use the new drones. All other ships can use EW drones and other nice effects on top of their full firepower and tank.
If the Dom is now expected to fit guns as primary weapons (as opposed to secondary), it needs a *massive* boost to grid. It has the smallest grid in the game, at the moment.
If it's still supposed to use drones as primary weapons, something still needs tweaking.
I'd propose a *small* additional number of controlled drones to the drone carrier ships (and maybe a reduction to the drone damage bonus, or removal of it altogether for something else). If a Dom were able to field, say, 7 drones, that would let it both have firepower and deploy a small number of support drones.
All in all, good ideas in the devblog. But it still needs work, if we are to keep the drone ships viable compared to other ships in their ship classes.
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:29:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
In a nutshell, the drone carrier ships will be the ones least able to use the new drone types. Why? Because their design is based on their using drones as primary weapons (they have crappy grid, etc, to reflect this). A Dom which uses non-damage drones is going to be losing a *lot* of firepower.
Contrast to a Geddon, for an easy example. It can now deploy 5 x EW drones, with no loss to firepower. Other similar examples are easy to find.
The feel is not right, because drone carrier should use drones the most. But drone carriers can and do use the slots that other ships use for damage (high: guns, med: tracking/sensor modules, low: damage mods) for everything that the new drones can be used for. So a Domi can use its drones for damage und use its leftover slots for NOS, EW and everything else the new drones can be used.
A Geddon could also launch its drones and deal damage. The question is, will the EW drones be overpowered? And this is linked to their stats and the stacking of effects. If 5 EW drones come close to one single module, they do not sound bad.
|
Chil
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 16:59:00 -
[273]
Edited by: Chil on 01/11/2005 16:59:45
OK, to get this straight. On a Domi/Vexor I lose about 25-33% damage UNLESS I use thermal drones. And can only use 5 at a time, assuming I can fit spares in the reduced drone bay?
Not only this, but I lose the benefit of extra drones for mining whilst not getting that back?
All because we're getting lag? Wow, awesome solution. Reduce player, oops drone, numbers to reduce the server load.
The grouping option would seem to fix lag. Rather than launching (upto) 15 drones we can launch groups. Each group has damage related to remaining hp's. Knockout 20% of structure & drop damage by 20%. Benefit to using groups is that no drones are destroyed until the group is knocked out, so the bigger the group the more survivable the drones.
Limit non-combat drones by all means. Reduces the 15 drones webbing/jamming etc/repairer drones to 5, and lets some then launch 5-10 extra drones to suppliment the guns.
Maybe some of us want to have a choice in ship/drone loadout. The way this and the racial benefits (!) are going, we're all going to be flying near identical set-up.
Bloody alt! Hathi
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:27:00 -
[274]
No, the damage bonus on drone ships has been changed to a general one applying to all damage types.
|
Dufas
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:32:00 -
[275]
another popular move by some clueless dev's....****ing everyone off 4tw
__________
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:34:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 17:34:34
So how is an overall damage boost any better? It still means that every gankship can all the sudden use their dronebay for free EW and the droneships get absoloutly nothing, because they need their dronebay for damage.
Ships that rely on drones for damage need more medslots to make up for the medslot drones they can't launch, or some bonus that allows them to launch those drones on top of that.
Also 5 drones still blows because they will get killed so damn fast. HP was never the deciding factor in wether someone will kill your drones or not, it was targeting. Targeting 15 things as opposed to 5, 5 is easily doable, 15 is not - because of that 5 drones have absoloutly no survivability.
|
Mercade
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:40:00 -
[277]
All I have to say is.
Woot! maybe using t2 heavy drones won't cost more then the battleship now in losable ammunition.
I love the changes.. all of them except the racial damage bonuses but as you've chosen to do that with missile boats in certain areas I can understand but for the dominix I would still have to disagree.
Vexor/Caracal should get specific damage bonus.
Dominix and Raven should have open damage bonus.
Raven has it right now, dominix should pick it up too in the way of that freedom. Give the Domi something like 10% to drone HP if you have to. Having 50% toughery heavy drones would mean more combat survivability.
Besides that bring it all out! love it all. I have a character with every drone skill at 5 except the new specs. and I don't mind one bit because now I'll get same affects on a set of t2 drones that will cost me 50% to 75% less to fill up my drone bay with.
|
Kurren
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:52:00 -
[278]
Maybe the drone mods will be like Comet mining.... we'll never see them...
************************************************
I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Kurren
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 17:58:00 -
[279]
Some body should read this LINK
It's ashame it got locked, had a really good idea going there...
************************************************
I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Skva
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:05:00 -
[280]
Edited by: Skva on 01/11/2005 18:05:21
I'm holding out hope that this change will NOT go through. Hopefully with the reaction from the vast majority of people it won't.
If the change does go through, which I currently burst into tears even thinking of the possibility, then I'm with everyone else who wants their SP they've spent in drones, even Gallente, redistributed.
My major gripe is, I want my drone swarm. I don't care that the 5 drones will only do slightly less damage, it doesn't have the cool factor.
As for reducing lag, my computer, a mid-range box, nothing special, slows down for I'd say under one quarter of a second when I release 13 heavies. So they lag up fleet battles? Ok, implement a change that p*sses everyone off to fix an issue that effects a very, very.... very small minority of players.
In solo or group play, drones cause no noticable lag. As others have said, delete the jetcans that clutter the gates and belts, theres a start.
As they are, right now, drones are balanced. So are the majority of ships, yes there are a few exceptions, and yes they need to be fixed. So, fix them. Don't shake everything up so that everything is unbalanced.
Drones are uninteresting an boring? Maybe, but we like them. Introducing different types of drones might work, EWAR drones are a no-no in my honest opinion.
Other drones sound decent if implemented properly. They spice up the drone side of the game a bit, and wouldn't completely unbalance every thing. It's a change I'm sure most people could live with.
Race specific damage? I don't like it, but with Caldari with a Kinetic boost already implemented, it seems EVE is heading in this direction. But unlike Caldari with the 10% kinetic 5% everything else bonus, we'll be limited to Thermal.
Please don't mess with current drone carriers bonus', we WANT to control masses of drones. Hell, make drones have a lot less HP, and buff drone sizes if you want to change drones.
With the new changes, drone ships don't get a huge advantage over non-drone carriers, and especially Gallente.
Caldari are EWAR specialists, sure other races can use EWAR, none as effective as the Blackbird and Scorp though.
Gallente are drone specialists. Sure other races can use drones... not as effective as the Dominix/Ishtar/Vexor/Ishkur... etc.
But oh wait, with this nerf, current drone ships which rely on drones for doing damage, e.g. ishtar/dominix, will be severely handicapped.
Other ships which DON'T rely on drones as their main offensive weapon now get goodies such as EWAR, Energy Neuts, Armor/Shield reps, without sacrificing any slots. Sure, drone carriers get that too, but can't expect people to drop their only offensive weapon.
A primary offensive weapon that, with this nerf, is only good against thermal damage. I just want to scream.
I'll stop rambling, but please. PLEASE. Don't limit us to five drones. Hell no. Don't unbalance every thing in the name of solving lag.
It makes me want to quit the game, I never would because the games just too addictive. But please listen to us, the customers!
I look on the news page, 17k users on at a single time! I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say that the record wasn't broken, again, because people don't like the game. People LIKE things as they are. Things need to be tweaked a little, sure. Fix that stuff, add new content. Don't revamp what doesn't need to be revamped.
There are many ways you could reduce lag without screwing over the drone system.
Quoted from the blog:
"This doesn't sound like a nerf at all."
I honestly thought that was a joke when I read it, though it seems I'm horribly mistaken.
To summarize what I've said:
Do NOT put cap the number of active drones to 5.
Do not add EWAR drones.
Do not implement this NERF:
If drones were that unbalanced then there would have been whine threads on the forums for months as long as this post. There haven't been. We don't want you to make drones more exciting, please, leave them alone.
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:10:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 01/11/2005 17:34:34
So how is an overall damage boost any better? It still means that every gankship can all the sudden use their dronebay for free EW and the droneships get absoloutly nothing, because they need their dronebay for damage.
Ships that rely on drones for damage need more medslots to make up for the medslot drones they can't launch, or some bonus that allows them to launch those drones on top of that.
Also 5 drones still blows because they will get killed so damn fast. HP was never the deciding factor in wether someone will kill your drones or not, it was targeting. Targeting 15 things as opposed to 5, 5 is easily doable, 15 is not - because of that 5 drones have absoloutly no survivability.
Free EW means the equivalent of one slot at max according to Tuxford.
Drone ships already have more slots free, because they get their dps without fitting weapons, freeing all the slots that other ships need for weapons and the modules to make those weapons better which fill every category of slots (weapons in the highs, active modules in the mids, passive modules in the lows). Non-dedicated drone ships can gain up to the equivalent of one EW slot, but only few will, while drone ships get any number of slots that are not used by damage dealing modules.
Survivability is the key. The devs need to make sure that ships that rely on drones can actually do that without being robbed of their offensive power each time.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:23:00 -
[282]
Uhhh duhhh... What do droneships have free? Highslots if anything, and what can you fit in highslots that gives you Ewar capabilities..?
I mean droneships just don't have the grid to fit anything really worthwhile in their highslots. A few Nosferatus, some simple weapons... If they had the grid they wouldn't be droneships.
This is why up until now there was a good balance here. Drones did damage, highslots did damage - Droneships couldn't fit great guns in their highslots, gunships didn't have great dronebays.
Now: Drones do Ewar, medslots do Ewar, but droneships don't have extra medslots.
|
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:31:00 -
[283]
Yep, that is why gunships mount their mids full of EW instead of the mods they need to make their guns perform on par. Because gunships only need high slots for their thing.
Drone ships do not only remove the need for weapons, they also remove the need for any weapon related modules, which is quite a lot ony many ships. No tracking modules, no damage modules, etc.
And highslots are usually used for NOS and the like on droneships, something that no other ship can do while still dealing appropriate damage.
|
Kurren
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:35:00 -
[284]
I wonder if the Devs have even thought about doing things that don't involve nerfing/changing anything ship and fighting related...
Asteroid belts full of more secure cans than asteroids...
Advertising cans when you enter and leave a system or a station...
Reduce the amount of CONCORD ships in safe sectors but increase their over-all damage so they still pwn...
Limit the number of stations in a system and spread the agents out... there is that big thing called a universe you could use...
The Devs could be doing so much more to PLEASE the player-base... but p!$$ing them off seems to be easiest...
I know that most of us players aren't from Iceland, but please, for the love of God, don't hate us for it!!
************************************************
I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Hohenheim OfLight
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:36:00 -
[285]
HOw about the move the agents out of ours, and such that would make a huge dif right there, leave drones alone.
|
Joachim Laurent
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:42:00 -
[286]
Question:
Is it at all possible for drone carriers to receive bonuses to specialized drones or is this "undoable"?
If specialized drones (EW, miners, sentries, etc.) would receive bonuses that somehow corresponded to the 5 extra drones (or +50%) a drone carrier would receive exactly the same benefits as other ships.
Something about making specialized drones useful exclusively for ships NOT specializing in drones just doesn't sit right with me. Giving a drone carrier these bonuses, while not neutralizing the nerf-factor (see drone HP, targetting, drone-swarm coolness ), would seriously help in keeping game balance. This, to my mind, would make the suggested changes acceptable and, dare I say, enjoyable. I for one would love for more options on drone utilization.
As for the concerns on drones taking over specific roles otherwise reserved for other ships, I'm not qualified to asess the potential ramifications. I do sympathize with these concerns because of my "Versatility is fun!" policy. No on wants to see perfectly useful ships become redundant and I hope the devs are taking the potential impact under consideration.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:43:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Roxanne
Yep, that is why gunships mount their mids full of EW instead of the mods they need to make their guns perform on par. Because gunships only need high slots for their thing.
Drone ships do not only remove the need for weapons, they also remove the need for any weapon related modules, which is quite a lot ony many ships. No tracking modules, no damage modules, etc.
Oh yea, because droneships are so horrendusly overpowered right now with their masses of free slots, I mean obviously all ships need a boost to be half way on par...
Fact is, droneships are balanced with other ships that don't use drones right now, introducing Ewar drones will destroy that balance.
|
Claude Leon
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 18:56:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Kurren
I wonder if the Devs have even thought about doing things that don't involve nerfing/changing anything ship and fighting related...
Asteroid belts full of more secure cans than asteroids...
Advertising cans when you enter and leave a system or a station...
Reduce the amount of CONCORD ships in safe sectors but increase their over-all damage so they still pwn...
Limit the number of stations in a system and spread the agents out... there is that big thing called a universe you could use...
The Devs could be doing so much more to PLEASE the player-base... but p!$$ing them off seems to be easiest...
I know that most of us players aren't from Iceland, but please, for the love of God, don't hate us for it!!
Excellent suggestions! |
Roxanne
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 19:02:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Noriath
Oh yea, because droneships are so horrendusly overpowered right now with their masses of free slots, I mean obviously all ships need a boost to be half way on par...
Actually, many drone ships are quite good at the moment and in much demand. They suck at some things (fleet battles come to mind) and excell at others. They are versatile while dealing still good damage which is quite an advantage.
And if you care to read the dev blog and Tuxford's thread again you will notice that EW drones are not that strong and that many ships will not be able to field them in any game affecting way. Half drone bay means few drones for many ships, or light drones which have only small effects that are subject to the new stacking penalty, too.
|
Ticondrius
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 19:28:00 -
[290]
Edited by: Ticondrius on 01/11/2005 19:30:20
I've added a link to the topic in my signature if you want to see what my ideas were. Those that got to reply seemd to think I had the better idea, so take a look and judge for yourself.
My Solution for Drone Balancing...since it must be done. |
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 19:37:00 -
[291]
well i will simply add again .... - remove all drones that havent been touched ie in the hidden mission spots around belts etc that havent been reclaimed or scanned for (make scanning for lost drones easier) and like jetcans simply have them vanish after 7 days of inactivity (space based excess rubbish in terns of lots of drones will go away then)
If u bring in these new drones and limit - at leas for the miners make harvestor drones much more plentiful. That will ease some of hte pain there as in 0.0 a lot of ppl use their DMM and their miner 2s and harvestor drones (currently 7.5m each on escrow to mine while tanking rats) id also give miner 1 and 2 drones a 50% boost as well. But perhaps make some NPCs drop harvestor drones. Or seed small amounts on missions or have a 8k LP offer in the pirate agent offers.
|
Miri Tirzan
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:38:00 -
[292]
I think that this is one of the worst nerfs ever. Now I have around 5 million SP in drones and would like to have most of it back!
Here is what is wrong with it: lack of versitility! Now that new types of drones are being added, the reduction in the number of drones has a even larger impact to drone users! Say I was using my 10 drones and wanted to add in some armor tanking so I put out 9 combat and 1 support drone. With the new changes, I now have the fire power of 8 combat and 1 support drone! That is a significant loss of combat capibility for a primary drone using player! Effectively, for every non-damage dealing drone, I lose two damage dealers not one!
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
|
Dezra
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:56:00 -
[293]
Sounds like a stupid idea tbh, i sure hope they reconsider.
There are only 2 new drone types, i can think of that would make me wanna use em, and thats salvage and repair drones.
The rest is irrelevant. Plz spend your time fixing modules that are broken, instead of creating new areas for flaws.
This game is going in the wrong direction
|
infused
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 23:18:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Dezra
This game is going in the wrong direction
I fully agree here. I really haven't had fun since pre exodus. I'm not an old timer, but things have just got way to complex. It's unneeded complexity.
This drone 'feature' is just a stupid way around the real problem with EW drones and repair drones thrown in there to make people happy.
Carriers seem like they are going to be crap.
|
Kyguard
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 23:31:00 -
[295]
This game is definitely going the wrong way and these new drone changes aren't helping.
You're not ruining drones, but drone boats. You are making them like all other BS.
Where is the logic?
--
God is on the side with the best artillery |
Ottman
|
Posted - 2005.11.01 23:40:00 -
[296]
Nerfing drones to reduce the traffic for the server is not an option, even to nerfe a defensive weapon system.
sorry if my english is not very good, in german i can explain much better why dont nerfe drones.
in cold war we have drones for every kind of damage, and we can control 10 drones exactly over drone skills. i would say that is not bad, even with heavy drones.
when i heard correctly and read it correct, drones should be reduced to 5 drones operationally, double the hp of them, but they only do em/thermal dmg.
in that config you can forget drones, and even the miner have no defense.
sentry drones sounds nice, but dont forget, you have to anchor them, to unanchor, thats to unflexible. starting drones, hitting the threat and returning home to the ship, thats the job of the drones, flying missions with a battleship, the drones takes care of them, killing the webber frigates and drones attacking them, without drones a battleship is not able to fly a level 3 mission, and that cannot be right.
missions often will be taken flying them alone, and then you badly need drones, i just a newb, i flew some mission with pals from my corp, just fly around and look, even to learn how to fly those missions. i saw one thing, in level 3 and above, without good drones and drone skills you're toast, loosing a expensive ship and maybe not able to even buy or build a new one.
and why ? without good combat drones you have a problem, the webber frigs/drones kick your butt out of your ship.
i can accept when you say, okay, no more drone boni on ships to reduce the server traffic, i think 10 good drones maybe enough, but only, and now comes my idea, when we, the player may be able to change drones in hangar like laser crystalls, yeah i talk about drone change from cargo to hangar and from hangar to cargo in flight, but please, not with 10 second delay like a missile launcher, that will be to bad.
drones are an important defensive weapon system, please even think about that , dont reduce them to 5 drones, dont reduce the damage on em/thermal, 10 drones are minimum below that drones dont make any sense, and no miner need sentry drones, only ganker will have an advantage of them, and even the ganker are the reason why most newbs dont go under 0.5 .
and one thing at last, i started playing eve in august, until then i have fun here, but hold in mind, i am now in a difficult situation, can i skill drone skill or better not ?
MfG ottman
|
Rawne Karrde
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 00:06:00 -
[297]
Yeah the new drone types are cool, but by reducing the drones usable to 5 is silly. It reduces the flexibility that is the advantage to using drones.
as has already been pointed out killing 5 drones is muche asier as you can just target them, especially with your planned boost to frigates and destroyers.
and wow, yeah that carrier is gonna be great with these changes. launching 5 fighters with your carrier is just so worth it.
|
Spaja Saist
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 00:09:00 -
[298]
Well this was the last straw for me. If these changes go through I'll be closing my account permanently. And no you can't have my stuff. If will just rot in my hanger till the EVE servers go offline, which considering they way this game is going may not be too far off. Sometimes I think the Devs feel they need to make changes just so they can claim they are doing something.
First they nerf missiles and add more skills to train to get them back where they were to begin with and now they are doing it to drones.
You want to reduce lag then clean up all the cans in high sec. Remember almost two years ago you said you were going to do that CCP. What happened to that plan?
Please stop screwing with the game before you ruin it for good.
|
Demon Nuzzle
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 00:10:00 -
[299]
Bring out the new drone skill and types. But the 5 drone limit, and all the drone changes basically are the worst thing I have seen the devs experiment with since the current R&D system. Drones don't cause lag for me. It's turrets that seem to be the offenders (lag).
A little bit of this, a little bit of that |
LOGINCHAR
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 00:20:00 -
[300]
New Drones system û a huge nerf and unbalance!
In new system, Drone 5 and drone interface 5 will become a compulsory skills. 20% damage per level, 20% drone yield per level, no any skills has this effect.
Now, all development blog is looking at is how it will effect specializing drone users, and for them it will have no effect, except less drones to manage.
But what happened to new character and character that are using drones in support role?
Take for example me. I use Prophecy and will continue to use it for next 3-4 month.
Prophecy has drone bay 50M3. I have drone skill L 4 and scout drone L 4.
I use drones to help me to kill webbing/scrambling frigs, fielding 4 medium drones and have 1 in reserve.
After nerf I will have 25M3, so only 2 medium drones doing the same damage. My ability to use drones in support role will be halved. In order to get the same damage as befor I will have to get Drone 5 and Drone interface 5! It is more then 1 month of time!
These 2 skills will become absolutely compulsory for small ships users that use drones to help in special cases.
New drone interface will be absolutely out of general 5% per level rule in skill system and again will make new characters life mach more difficult. Really, when make changes developers should not only think about 20Mil sp characters, but about 1 mil SP characters to.
|
John Blackthorn
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 01:05:00 -
[301]
I am very interested in the new drone types and a max 5 drones but they do more damage and have more hit points.
I don't think the drone bays should be 1/2'ed. It would be interesting to have say a set of drones for npc and a set for pvp loaded. Or just extra drones as they get destroyed.
Also the damage bonus for drones on say domnix should get a bonus to all drone damage not just therm. Same goes for like Cerbus missles should get bonus to all damage types not just kenetic.
-BT
|
Ticondrius
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 02:13:00 -
[302]
Edited by: Ticondrius on 02/11/2005 02:14:34
I agree with everyone else on the dronebay issue too. Don't halve the drone bays. making drone smore effective without slashing the bay size enables dorne users to do something every turret or missile user can already do...carry multiple dmg type ammo.
We can't reload drones from the cargo bay, so we have to fit all the drones we want in the drone bay. With the adidtion of Ewar and sentry drones, that means we will want some space for those too.
Either don't nerf drone bays, OR give us those dronebay expanders that have been sitting in the database since pre-exodus and let us load the dronebay from the cargo bay. being able to reload drones from the cargo bay would also be a huge help when resupplying in systems far from stations, as in 0.0. Ammo users can reload, why can't we?
My Solution for Drone Balancing...since it must be done. |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 02:50:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Noriath on 02/11/2005 02:51:10
If the dronebay isn't nerfed this change will be even more ridiculous, because then nearly every ship in existence will be able to launch max drones. Every battleship will be able to launch the equivalent of 10 heavies then, which would devalue droneships even more then this change would anyways.
Remember how the Thorax with 8 heavies was overpowered? If you don't cut the new 100mŠ dronebay in half it will still have the equivalent damage of 8 drones - 4 heavies with double damage...
The entire idea with maximum 5 drones is stupid and lame, but it's absoloutly nescecary to cut the dronebays too, because otherwise every ship with 125mŠ dronebay can launch the new equivalent of 10 heavies.
|
Kira Natel
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 03:43:00 -
[304]
I took a 4 month game break from EVE. I came back and still the same old nerf and lag story.
Maybe the solution is the Chinese one- limit the players to a 5 hour per day playing limit.
Seriously I feel sorry for Tuxford and maybe the Producer should be promoted and get a nice corner office with a view and a new producer who's more in tune with the playerbase take over.
|
Alvara
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 04:38:00 -
[305]
I love this game for a variety of reasons; one of them is that the developers have the guts to make the changes they believe necessary for the good of the gam. Since unlike the playerbase, they have all the information in hand, and like the playerbase love this game.
|
F'nog
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 04:40:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 02/11/2005 02:51:10
If the dronebay isn't nerfed this change will be even more ridiculous, because then nearly every ship in existence will be able to launch max drones. Every battleship will be able to launch the equivalent of 10 heavies then, which would devalue droneships even more then this change would anyways.
Remember how the Thorax with 8 heavies was overpowered? If you don't cut the new 100mŠ dronebay in half it will still have the equivalent damage of 8 drones - 4 heavies with double damage...
The entire idea with maximum 5 drones is stupid and lame, but it's absoloutly nescecary to cut the dronebays too, because otherwise every ship with 125mŠ dronebay can launch the new equivalent of 10 heavies.
This may have some merit, but a flat 50% reduction across the board is stupid. Some ships barely have a drone bay as is. Why should all ships get a reduction just to prevent some BSes from being overpowered? This change should only be done on a ship by ship basis after much consideration and testing.
Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
|
Apache
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 05:15:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Alvara
I love this game for a variety of reasons; one of them is that the developers have the guts to make the changes they believe necessary for the good of the gam. Since unlike the playerbase, they have all the information in hand, and like the playerbase love this game.
I agree. Dev's have more information then we do and as a result should be the ones in charge of changing things. However, these changes are just baffling to me.
Lets look at what the devs are trying to do.
They don't really do anything other than kill stuff or mine stuff. They are not even that flexible at doing that, there is no way to for example increase the damage drones do, or their speed or anything really.
I am fully on board with this change. Drones are kind of bland atm and it would be cool if we had a little more customization with them. They want to add more drones with different functions, yet at the same time reduce the number of drones both deployed, and carried. This allows players who fill their drone bay as a counter to frigs or as a little extra damage to use these new drones. However, those players who like drones enough to specialize in them can't use these new drones as they need their full drone compliment now to do the damage.
Next they say they want to be able to increase their damage drones do. Their plan is to reduce drone carriers to only one damage type, and even further, with a reduced total damage potential and more easily killed drones. The moros dread for instance goes from its current ability to use 35 drones of any damage type with good skills, to only using 5 thermal drones. Any other type of drone used in it would be a total joke.
Drones take up a lot of resources so we would much rather see less drones but have them better instead.
Again, sounds great. Unfortunately this won't be the case. Drones have the most noticeable effect on lag in things like fleet battles. We are now going from having some people deploying drones to every person capable of launching a sentry drone having them out and deployed before the other side jumps in. Not only that, the extra little bonuses of the EWAR drones will mean every person capable of using any drone will have them deployed. While they may have little effect individually according to the devs, when a fleet deploys all their drones, you bet it will have an effect.
This means more drones deployed, not less, and thus an increase in the usage of resources. Not only that, but we really aren't making the drones better. Some ships will have the ability to use one damage type as well as they are now, the rest will get a reduction in damage and survivability to drones. Kind of the opposite effect again of what Tuxford has mentioned.
Drone bays reduced to half of what they are today
Again a pretty general change that needs to be look at for all ships, not just an accross the board halfing of drone bays. Take for instance a ship like the taranis. Currently it can use one med and one light, or three lights. After this change it can use one light. This is 1/3 the damage output from drones it previously had.
In return for these changes, we get more skills to train, and less variety in our setups. I've never been a fan of the cookie cutter setups and have always hated the race specific damages etc. One of the few ships that was able to be fit for a variety of tactics will be gone after this change. We need more customization in our ships that allow us to do battle without the typical F1-F8 style of combat. My favourite fights in EVE have always been against ships where I didn't know what I was going up against. The way things are headed now, I can just tank that race's damage and hope my racial damage is good enough to break his tank. Hardly an improvement in my opinion.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 06:01:00 -
[308]
They don't really do anything other than kill stuff or mine stuff. They are not even that flexible at doing that, there is no way to for example increase the damage drones do, or their speed or anything really.
Hmm, turret hardpoints don't do anything but kill and mine stuff either, let's give them webbing and target painting and Ewar capabilities as well.
Oh wait, then all the people that rely on turrets for damage are screwed. Oh hey, all of the sudden it's like totally obvious why Dominix pilots are like really ****ed about this entire thing... woahhh...
Drones take up a lot of resources so we would much rather see less drones but have them better instead.
Uhh, yea, we've been over this a dozen times, like on the idea board and stuff...
Consolidate drone swarms into single entities, so there is only one NPC out there that represents a swarm of drones, uses stats acording to formation and deals damage and alocated damage acording to the drones in it.
But hey, that would probaply require some acctual programming, not some tweaking of the numbers and bonuses... then again, everyone would probaply happy about it, no more issues with drones tangled in each other or not scooping, controlling even a large number of drones like it was only one, drones never going off on their own...
Yea, it would require a new system and some changes to how drones work, a significant reduction in the stats of individual drones and the introduction of formations that have stats like speed and damage mods for the sake of creating a system that uses fewer resources, but hey, overall this would be ten times better, a stylish solution to the problem, and even allow bigger swarms of drones then we have now...
|
Velax
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 06:18:00 -
[309]
TBH, I dont care if drones drones look ugly as **** to reduce polys, I want 15 drones buzzing around my domi :(
Imagine what it would be like with 15 drones, A portible fleet in a can...untill someone has a SB :(
|
Katarine Whip
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 06:53:00 -
[310]
I think the proposed drone changes are cool, and it's not exactly a nerf as it was with the missile "balancing".
Eve faces changes every now and then, this time it just hits us Gallanteans more than other races.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 07:13:00 -
[311]
If it was a staight up nerf and not a bastardization off a good system I wouldn't even be so annoyed. I used a dominix back when you couldn't even make drones into squadrons and it was considered the most horrible ship in the galaxy and loved it.
But I loved it because it had lots and lots of drones, not because its drones magically did more damage...
|
SULAN BARHIR
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 07:40:00 -
[312]
Edited by: SULAN BARHIR on 02/11/2005 07:40:56
hmm... i should have sold my Vexor and Dominix a lomg time ago...
Edit: omg my rax! my poor rax! |
OSughhi
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 07:47:00 -
[313]
It is a nerf. A carrier drone nerf. Big. The only power of a drone carrier was the number and choice of damage. Now, pfluff, no more that. As galente I hope to snipe till the end of sniping. After nerf of damamge module, I will return to empire to make trade. My raven and galente bs are no good for other stuff after these old and future nerfs. Thanks for what i get for my money. The improvments are pathetics. Look what happened with missile. They said the missile boat are better after changes, but, hey, nobody use them in pve or pvp today, except a raven with dampers for pirating and guerila warfare style or for high shield tank. Missile are borked now, ops sorry, improved and noone like them or use them.
As I see changes of drones will be a new way to make lag and confusion on battlefield for everybody (no matter of ship you have) and drone carrier means nothing, they will die and dissapear. So figure, if dev nerf thorax and dominix in next step, that means the galaxy is full of thorax and dominix today? Actually every ship launch drones, missile boats are helping with drones to get the frigs and big number of drones on missile boats assure the survive of this ships in time. That will be lost in future. Players will be forces to play with others tools or ships. It is a bad, very bad ideea, and I am tottaly disapoiment.
|
Takigama
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 07:51:00 -
[314]
Edited by: Takigama on 02/11/2005 07:51:42
well, alot of people seem to be saying "lets consolidate drones so that.. blah"..
i dont see how thats any different from the proposed changes really.. hp's go up, damage goes up.. yay.
one point worth noting, if your on the receiving end...
15 drones doing 10 dmg a piece is nothing like 5 drones doing 30... sure the dot is the same, but its alot easier to deal with 5 drones than 15..
so, i'd suggest the increase for dominix/vexor/ishtar/etc be a little higher than just making it so 5 drones has the hp of what 15 would, but its not a very realistic change in the first place.
|
Takigama
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 07:52:00 -
[315]
another thing worth noting, i feel real sorry for those who sell drones;)
|
Hohenheim OfLight
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 08:38:00 -
[316]
Originally by: kieron
Drones! Love them or hate them, they are an integral part of EVE and one with much emotional attachment. Whether you pilot a drone boat or have been the recipient of their attention, nearly everyone has had some interaction with drones. However, the system behind drones, and the drones themselves, are a bit outdated.
Sir Tuxford has a new Dev Blog on drones. Some old friends are going through some changes, some new friends are coming, and even some new skills to work with the growing drone family.
Last time Tux blogged, it didn't go well. Let's try to keep the discussion polite, on topic and constructive, shall we?
After 11 pages of "O no", I sudjest you dont let him post ever again.
|
F'nog
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 08:41:00 -
[317]
Since so many people have missed this, I'll repost it here to cut down on some of the complaints:
Originally by: Tuxford
Changing racial damage types to all damage types.
Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
|
Menelak Faf
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 08:45:00 -
[318]
Originally by: F'nog
Since so many people have missed this, I'll repost it here to cut down on some of the complaints:
Originally by: Tuxford
Changing racial damage types to all damage types.
I was just about to do that.
|
Raem Civrie
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 08:46:00 -
[319]
That is indeed sweet. With "OMG THERMAL ONLY" out of the way, some of us can hopefully breathe again. Until they start demanding the same for the smaller caldari missile boats.
As for reducing the number of drones... alot of people are missing the point. Drones don't cause latency. They cause client-side lagging in terms of graphics and processing power. Ever jumped into a fleet with drones out? Hoo boy.
The only thing I'll miss is the SWARM the dominix spews. That's it. It's a visual effect EVE will lose somewhat, but I can cope with that.
---
God-King of Geminate |
Dak Hakin
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:15:00 -
[320]
Hmm... maybe I missed something somewhere...
The role of the "Carrier" is pretty much a big-ass drone hauler. Now, the Carrier will be limited to 5 drones? So, why bother training up to it or spending the ISK for it?
_______________________________________________
I lost my parrot
If you fear the thorn, do not crave the rose |
SengH
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:58:00 -
[321]
lol i wonder how fast the waiting lines for the ishtar will drop ... time to watch naga lol.
|
Skogen Gump
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:56:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Skogen Gump on 02/11/2005 10:58:39
Originally by: Dak Hakin
Hmm... maybe I missed something somewhere...
The role of the "Carrier" is pretty much a big-ass drone hauler. Now, the Carrier will be limited to 5 drones? So, why bother training up to it or spending the ISK for it?
Thats not the only, or indeed the most important role, if you know the info from the Fanfest - or watch the video that was posted on these forums.
You can make the carrier drop a ship, board it and fit it , in space ... thats its role, carrying ships.
Back on topic, I don't mind this Drone change, as long as it's all balanced accordingly, and I ,for one, trust CCP to do that.
All I ask is that you don't half the drone-bay of my beloved Enyo, it's only 5mŠ now :S
EVE is like a box of chocolates |
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:01:00 -
[323]
drone carriers will be just that droen carriers - its the titans that will be mobile ship platforms.
Unless they intend to give u the ability to board a drone carrier as well then jump out in youre pod and board frigs and destroyers
|
Tokka Konnair
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:11:00 -
[324]
the problem with a thread this long is that it's very difficult for anyone to read the entire thing before posting
as for my opinion this seems like a short term solution ... which is somewhat out of character for CCP
i would of thought it more likely that they'd rewrite the drone code and effects rather than simply reduce the number of drones we can use ... in a similar way that they're rewriting turrets and manufacturing right now
__________________________________________
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:31:00 -
[325]
reducing the turret affects and putting the small ones in groups of 5 but as one NPC would make more sense. Guess the code dosnt allow for it though
|
Centurin
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:47:00 -
[326]
Can someone point me to the place where Tuxford supposedly says that the damage boost is for all types now? As far as I know, he said no such thing. Please prove me wrong.
|
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:07:00 -
[327]
i think that the poster of all damage types was trying to make some rational sense on what CCP should be doing
|
Arminger
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:08:00 -
[328]
Quote:
Change the drone carrier bonuses to:
10% drone damage per level
+1 non-combat drone control per level.
Give them the choice.
Good point!
|
Sarela
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:17:00 -
[329]
Unbelievable. First nerf the missiles, so then a large majority place drones as their primary weapon. Jita wars sound familiar? So now your going to nerf Drones?
Are you ever going to leave anything fun in the game? Or are you bent on systematic nerf after nerf?
Let me guess. Next your going to nerf bookmarks?
It is my opinion that CCP is taking advantage of its player base's addiction / enjoyment of the game by forcing additional time for skill development thereby maintaining its cash flow.
By my best estimate a new player starting eve would have to play and learn skills for 5 years in order to achieve the maximum.
Why dont we see Nerf's where they are needed most for player enjoyment? Such as Nerfing the time it takes to learn any skill by 50%? Should not be a problem. its like reducing the drone bay by half. do the same for skill learn time. Or how about nerfing travel time by 50% which is another major disruption in game play.
Many people have complained about these problems but you have done nothing to solve it. But for the life of me I can't recall many posts saying " Please nerf the drones they make the game less fun and are a problem "
When are going to quit "fixing" what is not "broken" and start doing something about the true vices of the game?
|
Skogen Gump
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:28:00 -
[330]
Originally by: "Tuxford"
Drones take up a lot of resources so we would much rather see less drones but have them better instead.
I'd say that was fixing what is "broken" ...
EVE is like a box of chocolates |
Sarela
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:12:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Skogen Gump
Originally by: "Tuxford"
Drones take up a lot of resources so we would much rather see less drones but have them better instead.
I'd say that was fixing what is "broken" ...
See this is the kind of thing I was talking about. They have you convinced too. But if your going to reduce the drone bay space by 50% then why not make them 50% stronger? This is not the case.
You actualy view that as better? As fixing a problem?
If 6 drones can do 100 damage (hypothetical) and you reduce to 3 drones and make em 20% better, thats not a fix, thats a nerf. And to top it off you now are going to need to max lvl 5 a skill to unlock the skill that allows the 20% increase in the first place.
Meanwhile skill training time remains way too long and travel time is equaly insane. If anything needs a nerf its these things not drones, not guns, not missiles. they were working just fine before tinkering. |
BOldMan
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:31:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Vito Parabellum
Second officer: New contact! Bearing 125 by 49! Designated ***lord-Fiver!
Captain: What type of ship is it?
Second officer: It's like nothing I've ever seen before! Wait... Yes, its one of those new prototype Gallente carriers!
Captain: Keep a close eye on it.
Second officer: Oh my God! Its opening up! Its releasing... 5 frig sized drones! They are heading this way!
Captain: Activate the thermal hardners immediately and start a new mining cycle.
... and send our 5 explosive drones to killpwnd the noob...
|
Nerdin
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:42:00 -
[333]
I find it very amusing that you decide to change the damage bonus on drones for all damage type but leave caldari kinetic missile bonus.
If you change the drones then for god sake change the missiles as well!
Good for my thron I guess but my poor caldari ships shall contiune to weep when looking at that ridiculous kinetic bonus.
|
Hohenheim OfLight
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 15:06:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Greenwing
Edited by: Greenwing on 02/11/2005 13:32:05
Originally by: Sarela
Originally by: Skogen Gump
Originally by: "Tuxford"
Drones take up a lot of resources so we would much rather see less drones but have them better instead.
I'd say that was fixing what is "broken" ...
See this is the kind of thing I was talking about. They have you convinced too. But if your going to reduce the drone bay space by 50% then why not make them 50% stronger? This is not the case.
You actualy view that as better? As fixing a problem?
If 6 drones can do 100 damage (hypothetical) and you reduce to 3 drones and make em 20% better, thats not a fix, thats a nerf. And to top it off you now are going to need to max lvl 5 a skill to unlock the skill that allows the 20% increase in the first place.
From the devblog : Drone Interfacing skill changed 20% bonus to drone damage and 20% bonus to drone mining yield
Sounds to me like you get a damage increase of 20% per lvl of drone interfacing. If you have this skill at 5 atm you can use 10 drones, in the future this will be 5 with 100% extra damage -> same damage as 10, doesn't look like a nerf to me
And your thoughts about skills. I'd be pretty mad if they would give new players the chance to get to the same lvl as me in a lot less time....... Same about travelling, i do agree insta's should be changed/removed, but decreasing travelling time is bad. It should not be possible to get to the other side of the map in a very short time.
Its A Huge nerf, never mind all the NEW skills poeple are going to need to rain, CCP ISreally starting to take the ****, with there out look on the direction for this game, all they want us to do is spend hours getting from one place to another, tring skills all the time, only to wip the rug out from under us, saying "well now you got them new skills, let make them crap so you have to learn a hole load of new skills."
welcome to "Nerf On line" the never ending storie, of skills.
|
velox
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 15:51:00 -
[335]
I think the changes suck, mainly because I have trained the skills to the max to enable me to use more drones.
Because I liked the squadron type combat but that it just not going to work with 5 drones.
And as far as pvp well that is gonna suck. It doesnt matter how much harder you make them or how fast they kill, its easier for a player to maintain targets on a maximum no of 5 incoming drones no matter how many waves a domi can empty.
It will also be easier to kill them because with fewer targets to worry about your opponent has more time to focus his drones onto one of yours. work the math out 1 dominix drone would be 3 times its current strength and your opponent has heavy drones at 2 times the current strength, its now easy for him to target one drone at a time and work down a short list.
The OMG look at all those frigging drones will vanish for ever.
Dev's does this mean you are going to be nerfing Carriers and the new 'Carrier Fighters' before they come out or is this something else that we will invest a stack of time into only for you to realise that a carrier with 10 fighter is lagggy.
velox
(a depressed gallantean with 2 days left on drone interfacing 5 training)
Always aiming one step beyond the edge. |
velox
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 15:59:00 -
[336]
Something kinda of funny just popped into my tiny little brain.
Doing some simplistic math.
If the answer to current drone lag with current population is to halve it. Does this mean in 12 months time when eve population is doubled and drone numbers are back to todays level the nerf bat will come out again ?
I remember the old Intel CPU rule about every 12 months speeds would double. Is eve going to suffer the reverse where every time the population doubles playability and features halve
velox
Always aiming one step beyond the edge. |
Sarela
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 16:40:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Its A Huge nerf, never mind all the NEW skills poeple are going to need to rain, CCP ISreally starting to take the ****, with there out look on the direction for this game, all they want us to do is spend hours getting from one place to another, tring skills all the time, only to wip the rug out from under us, saying "well now you got them new skills, let make them crap so you have to learn a hole load of new skills."
welcome to "Nerf On line" the never ending storie, of skills.
Exactly... You hit it on the nose Sir.
We get the skills high enough were we can finaly do something with the equipment that requires them, only to have them skills nerfed and a new set introduced to semi compensate..
Enough with the nerfs already.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 17:04:00 -
[338]
I posted this in another thread, but a moderator closed it and asked to keep all drone discussion in this thread, so I will post it again:
In order to make drones easier to control and make them into a single unit most of the stats that were previously used on individual drones are no longer part of the actual drone, instead they are part of the squadron. What stats that squadron has is determined by the formation the player has chosen for it. Squadrons contain all the stats that determine the way the drones will shoot, move and so on. What type or types of damage the squadron deals is determined by the drones the player puts in it. The only other stat that remains on the drones themselves is their hit points.
The main difference between formation would be the speed and damage mod they add to the drones as well as their resistances to damage.
So the speeds will fit the type of drone used in a squadron you can only use one type of drone with a certain formation.
Possible formations for squadrons would be:
Light Wedge
Speed: 4200 m/s
Damage mod: 1.1
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 25m
Light Cluster
Speed: 3500 m/s
Damage mod: 1.2
Shield: EM 10% EX 65% KI 50% TH 30%
Armor EM 65% EX 10% KI 35% TH 55%
Signature radius: 25m
Light Phalanx
Speed: 2800 m/s
Damage mod: 1.6
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 25m
The other stats of light squadrons would be an average of what light drones are currently capable of.
Medium Wedge
Speed: 2100 m/s
Damage mod: 1.1
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 50m
Medium Cluster
Speed: 1750 m/s
Damage mod: 1.2
Shield: EM 10% EX 65% KI 50% TH 30%
Armor EM 65% EX 10% KI 35% TH 55%
Signature radius: 50m
Medium Phalanx
Speed: 1400 m/s
Damage mod: 1.6
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 50m
The other stats of medium squadrons would be an average of what medium drones can currently do as wellà
Heavy Wedge
Speed: 1100 m/s
Damage mod: 1.1
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 100m
Heavy Cluster
Speed: 900 m/s
Damage mod: 1.2
Shield: EM 10% EX 65% KI 50% TH 30%
Armor EM 65% EX 10% KI 35% TH 55%
Signature radius: 100m
Heavy Phalanx
Speed: 700 m/s
Damage mod: 1.6
Shield: EM 0% EX 60% KI 40% TH 20%
Armor EM 60% EX 0% KI 25% TH 45%
Signature radius: 100m
And here also the other stats would essentially be about what large drones do right nowà
Now the drones themselves would be reduced in stats, to their damage (4 for light, 8 for mediums, 22 for heavies) and their hit points, which would be made the same for every drone, since they are now no longer required to be different, but much rather the formation they are in.
This means that from now on if you want to you can create a phalanx formation and fill it with explosive damage drones, which would then act like explosive ogres. You could also fill a wedge formation with ogres and have them act like Berserkers, depending on what you need.
In order to create a squadron you click a new squadron button in your drone control panel, then it will ask you what type of formation you want to use for that squadron. You enter the formation. Then a little box will appear where you can drag drones from your bay into the squadron (much like the current system) however, the squadron will only accept drones that are indicated by its formation. (You canÆt put heavy drones in a light squadron that moves at 4200m/s)
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 17:04:00 -
[339]
Also the drones will continue to show up in the general drone bay window, since they are not fused together in the squadron, but only an indicator of what drones you want the squadron to draft from your bay when you launch it. If the drones specified for launch arenÆt there anymore or your skills arenÆt high enough to launch them the squadron will launch as many as possible.
Once you have created a squadron it is saved on your computer, so you can create squadrons for all kinds of purposes and mix the different drones you have in them. (Like create one squadron with each formation for your drones)
When you launch a squadron it will try to draft as many of the drones that you have indicated in the box from your bay and use them to create the formation. All the damage the drones in the squadron do is added up, and used for the damage the squadron deals.
When the squadron gets targeted however, and a hit is scored (Against the signature radius of the squadron, which equals the radius of the current drones.) the damage is randomized and applied to the hit points of one of the drones within the squadron.
What about tech 2 drones, can there be tech 2 squadrons? No, but they will do more damage and have more hit points still, which means when used in a squadron they will still make it significantly stronger. With the new skills that will give drones boosts to speed and so on a highly trained drone user will still get superior speed on his squadrons, and benefit from tech 2 drones because of their increased damage potential and survivability.
What about the drones with new functions, like EW and Eneut drones? Those can be used in the squadrons as well, the squadrons will then just acquire that function from the drone and provide the stats to govern it.
What will a squadron look like? It will be represented by a big symbol on your screen, like the brackets around a ship, and be only one target. The drones that are used in the squadron will appear in a formation and move together. However, there may be a command to turn off the drones themselves being displayed.
|
Paul Castrin
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 17:10:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Royaldo
This isnt what we need. This is another bad idea. Good thing though is... playerbase whine didnt force this change.
I hope this was sarcasim because it sure has heck is a response to playerbase whining.
Just look up any post by the PvP alliances that screamed about being lagged at a gate and accusing the other side of poping drones for just that purpose.
Player whining 4tl.
|
Qin Yu
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 18:39:00 -
[341]
Two things I've noticed
1 Kieron... Im sorry but your post and the dev blog was patronising and quite snidey against people who've brought complaints up about the new proposed Drone changes. Forgive the people who answer "OMG you suck!" But people in those very channels were offering constructive criticism which was ignored.
2 Despite the slight change in the new dev blog it still doesn't excuse for CCP's totally ignoring player opinion on this subject. A large portion of the active FORUM population tell you something's wrong why not address those issues and reach a compromise?
3 A suggestion.
Ok, change all the bonuses as you guys want (not as if we can stop you anyway). Change the max number of drones in control at once BUT keep the damn drone bays the same size. It'll be FAR more tactically useful for a Drone ship pilot to mix and match waves of drones in which it could launch/dock and launch a different one..
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 19:06:00 -
[342]
Quite frankly, I'm disgusted that most people are just ticked off about the dronebays being reduced.
That shows that the only thing about this change that they don't like is the fact that their firepower doesn't increase with it.
|
Haniblecter Teg
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 20:37:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Nerdin
I find it very amusing that you decide to change the damage bonus on drones for all damage type but leave caldari kinetic missile bonus.
If you change the drones then for god sake change the missiles as well!
Good for my thron I guess but my poor caldari ships shall contiune to weep when looking at that ridiculous kinetic bonus.
NONONONOOOOO
Caldari and missles got nerfed, the limiting damage bonus was a result of this.
Gallente are NOT getting nerfed, the all damage types is a way to prevent them from getting the nerf...cause they lost 5 drones. Caldari didnt lose any launchers.
SO please, stfu.
Friends Forever |
Amitious Turkey
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 22:31:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Edited by: Xthril Ranger on 31/10/2005 20:02:56
I would like to point out that since the drone carriers only get bonuses to damage and mining yield they will not be better than any normal ship at using EWAR drones , sentry drones and logistic drones.
I think it is a shame that the typical drone carriers will not get an advantage at using these drone types.
how about making the +1 drone bonus for the carriers so they can get up to max 10 drones?
since they are gonna be DRONE carriers anyway might as well give them 10 instead of 5 at once.
and not everyone is going to have a carrier anyway, so it wont crash a node or something when you release them.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)[]==^= (urtok's bunny)
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
The writer of the article did not quote himself - Cortes
What happened? When did it happen? Where? Who
was involved? Why did |
Amitious Turkey
|
Posted - 2005.11.02 23:18:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Fellhand
Edited by: Fellhand on 01/11/2005 01:48:07
CCP, just for once, change the habit of a lifetime and listen to the players. Virtually everyone has told you that this is a stupid [expletive] idea and several have told you outright that it's a game breaker for them and they'll quit. Just drop it, drop the whole idea. It's pointless, insulting, lazy, unfair and destroys balence.
PLEASE LISTEN TO TEH PLAYERS.
if you must do this then check out other peoples ideas and my above post
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)[]==^= (urtok's bunny)
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
The writer of the article did not quote himself - Cortes
What happened? When did it happen? Where? Who
was involved? Why did |
sonofollo
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 01:13:00 -
[346]
CCP are going to ram this through without to much worry about what the players think - i guess they just arent willing to cough up for extra server equipment or take the smarter move of moving agents - puttign a limit on drones in space before they vanish (2 or 7 days) remove advertising cans and sec cans that have been deployed for longer than 6 months
Ah well lets adapt
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 01:44:00 -
[347]
Okay. Agents? Not a factor in the 0.0 node drops. So can't be that.
And if you have a way of breaking the addressable memory limit, not only will CCP use it, but you'll be rich. Or you'll have to wait for the 64-bit servers like everyone else, which take TIME to test, evaluate and deploy.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Dak Hakin
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 07:47:00 -
[348]
I really think the whole thing is kinda funny. Now, a whole new line of ships, carriers, will be useless. Stealth bombers. Carriers dont carry a lot of firepower on their own, so the 5 drones it hauls will make it a sitting duck.
_______________________________________________
If you fear the thorn, do not crave the rose |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 08:25:00 -
[349]
No, because thei're indestructable superdrones that do more damage then your average cruiser... But yea, carriers with 5 drones is the lamest thing ever. I thought that even 15 or 35 was not a whole lot for a drone carrier, but 5...
Imagine how lame starwars episode 1 would have been if that droid ship would have launched 5 drones, not 500...
|
Akiman
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 18:59:00 -
[350]
hi;
i dont like that thermal damage stuff and that not capable of using more drones...
things are mixing up
AND you are not being polite by doing these updates you are making my game fun ruined
P.S. : your return to drone bay command wont work quite well some in some stays :(
|
Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.11.03 22:58:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Kurren
I wonder if the Devs have even thought about doing things that don't involve nerfing/changing anything ship and fighting related...
Asteroid belts full of more secure cans than asteroids...
Advertising cans when you enter and leave a system or a station...
Reduce the amount of CONCORD ships in safe sectors but increase their over-all damage so they still pwn...
Limit the number of stations in a system and spread the agents out... there is that big thing called a universe you could use...
The Devs could be doing so much more to PLEASE the player-base... but p!$$ing them off seems to be easiest...
I know that most of us players aren't from Iceland, but please, for the love of God, don't hate us for it!!
No, they haven't thought about it at all. The devs on this game seem to have one and only one response to problems: Nerf the [expletive] out of everything.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
|
Jahlina Kantar
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 00:51:00 -
[352]
The new skill tree looks great. As an ex droner myself, I always wished for new abilities and skills to push them further. And now it looks like we'll get a range of new types too.
The amount limit is concerning. If each drone is going to be tougher, it will somewhat compensate.
I remember a while ago that nerfing dual mwd was strongly opposed, as with a lot of other good ideas which are now accepted and generally improve our gaming. Looking back, dual/triple MWD's were ridiculous and im so glad my 180,000ms crow was nerfed.
Perhaps in the future we'll look back and wonder what all the fuss was about with the drone revamp, considering the performance gains. And what with able to send out jamming/vamping drones and a bunch of near frigate like ships. If your drone bay can handle 15, and you can only launch 5, heck.. that means you can replace them twice before you are droneless.. giving you much better endurance. And the damage bonus's look insane on drone carrier ships (to compensate for the numbers loss).. I'll be very wary approaching such ships.
Heck, I bet the damage bonus's will end up being nerfed because the drones are so darn effective ; )
|
Risstor
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 02:07:00 -
[353]
asked this in another thread but it looks like i should have done this here
are these changes written in stone?
i've had enough of the "look and feel" changes taking place and would like to know when/if these drone changes are taking place
would appreciate a definitive answer (if that is possible) as i will need to cancel my account before the next automatic payment takes place
thanks
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 03:41:00 -
[354]
I just had a thought, since drones will be much stronger and tougher now after this change, can the model for a drone be altered from just one drone to three of them in a tight cluster?
That way at least the coolness factor of my drone ship would not evaporate into nothingness and there would be a reasonable explanation as to why drones are stronger - they aren't individual drones but small wings of drones...
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 03:42:00 -
[355]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/11/2005 03:43:48
Sweet. Can I have your stuff?
Some of the people who only like flash and glamout are leaving, so the average quality of my opponents will go up. I like that.
(PS, if you think any vet is bothered by 15 drones, snort)
Because THAT is the core of this change. It is no more bothersome to me than the change from RoF bonus to damage on intys (which, yes, cut my damage slightly) or the toggles for effect and turrets.
It's NEEDED. Deal.
Noriath, I don't think that's really worth the dev's time, plus it would add back some server and quite a bit of client lag. (Consider, 300 paths rather than 100...)
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 04:03:00 -
[356]
Quite frankly, I think it is worth the devs time to make at least some change to the game that makes droneships not ridiculous. I don't get that entire 300 paths deal, if the model has three drones in it rather then one it wouldn't really change anything. Unless I#m completly missinformed that shouldn't make any difference, since the individual drones are not multiple parts, but just one model that looks like 3 drones...
I for one liked my Dominix because it had lots of drones, not because they did more damage. Now it's a lame damage bonus and the swarm effect gone. 5 drones, that's laughable.
And I'm also considering canceling my account for the first time with this change, I spent a lot of time learning skills for my Domi and have been using it for about a year now, long before it became the flavor of the month. Seeing it turn into a completly lame shadow of its former self in all but damage output hurts...
|
Olivin
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 05:17:00 -
[357]
Hp and damage boost is just lame cover up for the ugliest nerf I saw in Eve. In fact, why not just simply remove drones from the game since they cause lag. Oh! I got better idea - why not remove few thousands players. That will 100% reduce the lag!
Olivin
|
Kateryne
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 12:14:00 -
[358]
Or... why not remove anyone who whines at CCP :) if they become a fascist corporation at least those of us who aren't too bothered with the proposed changes, or who are willing to try them out before whining, won't have to put up with all the lamers in long threads like this!
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 13:58:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Noriath
Quite frankly, I think it is worth the devs time to make at least some change to the game that makes droneships not ridiculous. I don't get that entire 300 paths deal, if the model has three drones in it rather then one it wouldn't really change anything. Unless I#m completly missinformed that shouldn't make any difference, since the individual drones are not multiple parts, but just one model that looks like 3 drones...
I for one liked my Dominix because it had lots of drones, not because they did more damage. Now it's a lame damage bonus and the swarm effect gone. 5 drones, that's laughable.
And I'm also considering canceling my account for the first time with this change, I spent a lot of time learning skills for my Domi and have been using it for about a year now, long before it became the flavor of the month. Seeing it turn into a completly lame shadow of its former self in all but damage output hurts...
Bluntly? heh
I really couldn't care less about the graphics. Make drones an icon plz, rather have that 1FPS extra.
And if you're talking a single model, then remembering the extra client-side code they'd need to make to handle relative positional shifts, the only other problem is the far larger bounding box they'd need. More drones sticking to each other, Noriath?
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Mihoshi Tsunami
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 14:58:00 -
[360]
IÆm for the changes but it still needs too be tweaked as stated by the people off eve and the devs self killing 5 drones are easier then 15 isnÆt the simple solutions to increase velocity and orbit velocity and signature of the drone too be effective as 15 drones?
DonÆt reduce drone bay that much and no we donÆt need Drone bay expander donÆt want to give yet another slot for drone bay expander. The specialized drone ships like dominix and vexor etc. should have an huge drone bay because they rely on them more they should carry different kind of drones according to the situation.
Sentry drones IÆm against not only do you need too anchor them takes time it will be a favorite by gate campers. You want us players too move too low sec right?? DonÆt bring out this drone more off a reason not too go into low sec.
Another idea instead of sentry drones ôArtillery dronesö they orbit a few meters from there mother ship and fire at rats or artillery support drones they sot of attach to ship orbiting like 2M or a fixed location they boost ship turret optimal and falloff and some rof rate and fire in sync with the ship turrets so in other words a extra high slot or half.
Just and idea
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:58:00 -
[361]
I wonder why people who "Don't care" are still against everything those who do say... Must be some rare form of stupidity.
But hey, I know that most people are too cought up in their math and numbers to look beyond the stats of a ship. I personally still think that it sucks that drones turn twice as powerful overnight and dedicated droneships only have 5 of them, completly regardless of what the numbers are afterwards, that's a change that just doesn't make any sense from a roleplaying perspective, and completly eliminates what made a droneship a droneship - lots of drones, as opposed to drones that randomly get stronger if launched from that ships bay...
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 22:52:00 -
[362]
Great, you're pro-lag. I have a little list.
Some of us are practical, and realise that it's necessary. Look at all the lag-related drone bugs....
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.04 23:24:00 -
[363]
Edited by: Noriath on 04/11/2005 23:26:21
Uhhm, I don't see how changing a model would affect lag in the least, what you see on the screen is only a representation of the data that is communicated between you and the server, how that data is represented doesn't matter in terms of lag.
If your computer can't handle it that's your problem, but I don't think "My computer sucks" qualifies as an argument against optical improvements.
And I do realise that the changes may be nescesary, I would just like to see more drones represented as fewer entities, instead of just plain: less drones. - Because it doesn't make any difference in terms of lag, but one makes a huge difference in terms of wether you can still take droneships seriously from a roleplaying standpoint or not...
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 03:52:00 -
[364]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 05/11/2005 03:51:57
You are pro-lag because you are against this change just because it affects the look of your drone deployment. CCP consider this necessary. Evo...oh wait, you don't NEED to evolve, because it's NOT seriously nerfing you.
If you start using multiple drone models, you're talking an investment of dev time to come up with realistic drone movements in a group - relative positions of the drones will need to change when they manouver, or it looks bad.
Then, you now have larger drone bounding boxes. This means you have more collision issues, and drones have a higher chance of being stuck, and so on.
This is, bluntly, a waste of CCP's time.
"RP standpoint" my ass. There are REAL things for RPers to be concerned about
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 05:21:00 -
[365]
I tell you who's pro lag:
People who anchor cans in belts and then realise that they don't want to be active in just one system, so they just leave them there and anchor new ones somewhere else.
People who make 5000 bookmarks because they need to go from one end of the universe to another in a few minuites or else their ADD kicks in and they will wander off completly forgetting about the game.
People who eject from shuttles outside of stations to bump people who want to warp out.
People who scatter assets across the universe, never stack anything, collect and keep every single item they ever find instead of getting rid of items they just plain don't need.
Not people who like having more then 5 drones...
I mean we can't go ahead and change the system every time the game lags. What if the game still lags after the drones are reduced? Take it down to 3 per ship? IOr only allow a maximum of 4 Turrets per ship and make them all twice as strong...
Hey, in theory lots and lots of things can be reduced into nothingness, boiled down to single equations, but quite frankly, I would rather see CCP atacking lag-causing behaviour then making changes to systems that make a mockery out of the idea behind it... (Sure you can still do the same damage, whoop dee doo, but is a droneship a droneship because it has more drones, or because its drones just randomly improve as soon as they are stored in the bay..?)
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 05:37:00 -
[366]
"I would rather see CCP atacking lag-causing behaviour then making changes to systems that make a mockery out of the idea behind it..."
Since it's CCP who has the exact data on what puts strain on their yarrdware, maybe they're simply making educated decision on what to change in order to get the most bang for the time spent..? As opposed to whining users who seem mostly interested in keeping their "drone swarms", with little concern how this migh affect everyone else... ŒŒ;
(and before you pull out the turret reduction card... i already replied i wouldn't mind it, in the other stickied thread. To be honest i'd actually prefer ships with few large turrets, than with bunch of these tiny things they have now... just look at the dreadnaughts for the 'right' ship look)
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 05:48:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Noriath on 05/11/2005 05:54:36
Well, can't say I disagree with that, the main reason I turned to drones in the first place is because turrets look too small and wimpy on battleships.
But that's besides the point, I simply believe you can have your cake and eat it too, I completly agree that the number of entities in drone swarms has to be reduced, but if the number of drones is simply reduced drones will become just like turrets: Tiny and unspectacular looking compared to what they can do.
A droneswarm should be huge and intimidating! That doesn't mean it has to consist of dozens of individually managed drones...
|
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 12:37:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Noriath
Not people who like having more then 5 drones...
'
Originally by: Dev Blog
Note from Oveur based on comments:
I'd just like to point out that the optimizations are being done from not one, not two but from THREE sides. It may come as a surprise to some players but we are actually optmizing code, optimizing content (this change) and buying more hardware.
Drones take a lot of resources on the client and the server and although it may seem very little to some of you, doing this change alone actually reduces the resource usage by almost half. I think that's quite a lot ;)
So you see, there actually is a reason to cut the amount of drones in space. However, I do think that we should have a considerable amount of flexibility as far as locally generated content goes. This means that I do like to see a drone as a swarm instead of a single little ship, but that I'd like to be able to nerf this visual candy when needed. I don't need 30 of these swarms, at that level I am more interested in the drone crosses than how they look.
Thermal drones do +25% damage than explosive drones. If you can't understand this, then don't comment drones |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 17:57:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Noriath on 05/11/2005 17:59:48
Yea, the amount of things that fly around in space causing lag should be reduced. I just don't see why that has to mean that you can't have more drones, except drones that are managed as small groups instead of individual units.
I already sugested that even the 5 drone system could be improved upon if there weren't any individual drones at all anymore, but they would become building blocks for droneswarms that act as a single unit.
I understand the need for cutting lag, but hey, even a limit of 15 drones seems extremly low for the drones an entire battleship can scramble, but 5? That's just a lame joke.
Where is the coolness factor in a droneship that can only have 5 drones? So all I'm saying is: Change drones so they at least look like multiple drones in space instead of just one. That way you can have only 5 things that cause lag, but you will still be able to look at a droneship and not laugh at just how silly it has become in the name of lag reduction...
I mean for the Dominix it's harsh, but on a Moros the change is just completly ridiculous. All of the sudden the 5 tiny drones it can launch can do what? like 350% as much damage as they normaly could. Sounds great, but it's still totally lame to see a ship the size of your average suburb only being able to launch 5 drones, no matter how uber they are through various bonuses that are completly unsound from a roleplaying standpoint...
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.05 20:37:00 -
[370]
Noriath, I'm glad to see your're such an expert on Eve systems.
When, in fact, for example, it's been said that statics like cans and abandened drones ARN'T major lag-causers. ACTIVE drones are one of the major causes of lag.
And EVERYTHING in Eve improves when you stick it on your ship. Including, *gasp* current drones. It's just a matter of degree.
Making groups of drones will require a investment of dev time into something which will delay more USEFUL content like RMR and Kali.
I even agree with you that it's ridicuous for the Moros - THAT should be able to launch 10.
As for the RP standpoint, as I said before - real RPers have real things to worry about.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.06 00:53:00 -
[371]
I might not be an expert on the eve system, but at least I don't claim to be the judge of what's worth the devs time and what isn't...
Face it, the reduction in drones makes droneships silly, what made them cool is gone, now the Dominix is just an ugly ship with a damage bonus...
|
Summersnow
|
Posted - 2005.11.07 05:32:00 -
[372]
I am curious, if we need to cut drones in half at 17K users, what do we do at 30K? cut it to 3 per person, 40K we go down to 2? 50K everyone gets one drone, battleships with a cruiser size drone, cruisers with a frigate size drone.
Also, at the same time drones are getting nurfed, and this is ultimately a nurf, but yet they plan on introducing carriers, which carry fighters ( big drones? ) etc. Now if the drones are such a big problem why is CCP investing so much time and effort on ANOTHER type of drone?
Because right now this really feels like a poorly implemented band aid fix and not a long term solution and it seems to me that before CCP ruins a lot of peoples gameplay and makes them happy they should darn well make sure this is a PERMANENT SOLUTION and not a cheap ass temporary band aide.
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.11.07 11:38:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Summersnow
Also, at the same time drones are getting nurfed, and this is ultimately a nurf, but yet they plan on introducing carriers, which carry fighters ( big drones? ) etc. Now if the drones are such a big problem why is CCP investing so much time and effort on ANOTHER type of drone?
Because from the start CCP have been saying Carriers will have only five "fighter" drones.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.07 22:26:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Noriath
I might not be an expert on the eve system, but at least I don't claim to be the judge of what's worth the devs time and what isn't...
Face it, the reduction in drones makes droneships silly, what made them cool is gone, now the Dominix is just an ugly ship with a damage bonus...
Yea, and I fly a trashcan when I fly a BS? So?
Critize the ship models elsewhere, and stop whining about how cool you won't be.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 05:38:00 -
[375]
Well I don't know what exactly your problem is, but appearantly it makes you really mad if someone thinks it's not paticularly spectacular if a kilometer long battleship can only launch 5 tiny drones...
|
Remedial
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 15:21:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 08/11/2005 06:41:47
Hurrrrr it couldn't have anything to do with the ship's electronics, the pilot's mental link with the drones, or any other limit to 5 drones, now could it?
|
Severun
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 17:13:00 -
[377]
I don't like the cutting the size of the drone bays in half. I'm also not a big fan of the limit of 5 drones per ship.
I depend on drones for defense against frigates of my larger ships and to boost my mining yield. It appears that the nerf bat will hit both the ability of my combat ships to defend themselves and increase the time I spend mining to get the same minerals, the double whammy!
Do you guys have alot of time on your hands?? :)
I'll tell you what would be useful, is to have loot drones, that would quickly pop around to the cans of downed rats and move the loot to your cargo hold.
Also Sentry Drones???? Come on, that's not really a drone at all, it's a deployable mini sentry tower. I can see the gate campers having a field day w/ this, if you do something like this you will need to make sure they cannot be deployed around gates.
Just wanted to close by saying I appreciate CCP working on adding new content/changes to the game, and I hope they incorporate the feedback from their player base here.
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 18:03:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Noriath on 08/11/2005 18:03:11
Originally by: Remedial
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 08/11/2005 06:41:47
Hurrrrr it couldn't have anything to do with the ship's electronics, the pilot's mental link with the drones, or any other limit to 5 drones, now could it?
Nope, it coldn't, because even if the electronics could only handle 3 drones you could still put a bay on it that can carry 300...
And besides, it's not like the pilot or ship acctually controlls the drones, you tell them what you want them to do and they make the decissions to get the job done.
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 23:19:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Noriath
Edited by: Noriath on 08/11/2005 06:41:47
Well I don't know what exactly your problem is, but appearantly it makes you really mad if someone thinks it's not paticularly spectacular if a kilometer long battleship can only launch 5 tiny drones...
My problem is you can't read how drones currently cause lag.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 00:08:00 -
[380]
lol... I know that drones cause lag, but they cause lag because every individual drone is managed as a whole ship more or less. I think that should change to allow people to have more drones without using as many system resources.
But I said that already a few dozen times in different ways, by now I'm not really hoping that you get the point anymore.
|
Remedial
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 15:42:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Noriath
Nope, it coldn't, because even if the electronics could only handle 3 drones you could still put a bay on it that can carry 300 - or more electronics for that matter, don't you think there would be room for one more computer somewhere?
And besides, it's not like the pilot or ship acctually controlls the drones, you tell them what you want them to do and they make the decissions to get the job done.
Yes, it could. Having a big box you stick drones in inside the dronebay isn't the same thing as having a line of drones already hooked up to the ship via electronics that are ready to be launched into space. It's like an aircraft carrier holding planes on its deck and ready to go as opposed to planes wrapped up in shrinkwrap in the inner garages for later use.
And actually the pilot DOES control the drones, hence the skill name "Drone Interfacing" - you or your ships's electronic connection with the drones is what directs them to take certain actions. Since dronebays don't leech CPU from the main ship, the electronic connections must be hardcoded into either the pilot's brain through neural interfaces or the ship's dronebay computer through electronic interfaces, and limitations on either would only permit X drones of Y type to be in space at one time.
There are plenty of "RP" reasons why drones could work the way they are implementing changes.
|
Remedial
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 15:45:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Noriath
lol... I know that drones cause lag, but they cause lag because every individual drone is managed as a whole ship more or less. I think that should change to allow people to have more drones without using as many system resources.
But I said that already a few dozen times in different ways, by now I'm not really hoping that you get the point anymore.
Think about this for a second. What if it's much easier to balance 5 drones for every ship than it is to balance between 6-15 drones for every ship of varying sizes and specialties? What if CCP wants to introduce EW drones, but since a Raven could potentially use 5 heavy EW and 1 damage drones, and a Dominix could use 5 EW and 10 damage drones, balance was really really hard to strike?
|
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 18:18:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Remedial
There are plenty of "RP" reasons why drones could work the way they are implementing changes.
If you think RP means "Making up a half baked explanation for things that don't make sense" sure!
And you still didn't get the point either, it's not about balancing or lag or anything, it's about visually having a respectable number of drones...
|
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 18:46:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Noriath
Originally by: Remedial
There are plenty of "RP" reasons why drones could work the way they are implementing changes.
If you think RP means "Making up a half baked explanation for things that don't make sense" sure!
And you still didn't get the point either, it's not about balancing or lag or anything, it's about visually having a respectable number of drones...
You're kind of like me, aren't you? You refuse to fly that Caldari/Minmatar crap just cause it's ugly, don't you?
In the end, the vusual goodies doesn't matter much. A respectable amount of drones means a good amount of crosses flying about your ship. That also means a lot of drone *units*, which is the cause of lag. Bunching them together in a group, while looking really cool on a micro perspective, isn't at all different from how the proposed changes result in on the macro perspective we actually play on.
As for "RP" reasons... why doesn't drones require grid, module space, habitation/hangar, refueling, etc. And why can't I repair drones in my ship when I can obviously refuel them and change their computer alignement programs (scooping someoneelse's drones) on a whim?
Two sides of the coin. (actually grid and CPU usage and a few other... mayor... changes could actually be good for drones)
I wish there were more fun skills with Memory as primary. Poor Intaki combat people with low perception... |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 19:06:00 -
[385]
Edited by: Noriath on 09/11/2005 19:06:26
Originally by: Ithildin
You're kind of like me, aren't you? You refuse to fly that Caldari/Minmatar crap just cause it's ugly, don't you?
I suppose I do, to me a ship has to feel right, not have lots and lots of big numbers in its info...
I think the amount of X-s makes no difference in drones, quite frankly, having 5 still causes too much lag if 10 is unacceptable. There should be one unit that represents the whole swarm in my opinion - but the swarm has to be huge!
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 00:42:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Noriath
lol... I know that drones cause lag, but they cause lag because every individual drone is managed as a whole ship more or less. I think that should change to allow people to have more drones without using as many system resources.
But I said that already a few dozen times in different ways, by now I'm not really hoping that you get the point anymore.
It's exactly what they ARE doing, is the point.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 04:15:00 -
[387]
Ok, that sentence wasn't even really english. Just stop please.
|
Komisches
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 05:11:00 -
[388]
Gah. Yes there is much lag caused by drones. Yes lots of drones makes my ships seem more impressive. Yes, I'm going to miss them singing to me when CCP take most of them away (no matter how much some of us protest).
But, what about the lag caused by all those irritating secure containers anchored in belts everywhere, and outside stations and jumpgates? Can't something be done about them too?
---
|
Foulis
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 06:09:00 -
[389]
Yes, we can discuss the problem of lag by secure containers, perhaps in a thread that isn't about drones =P.
Anyways, there are lots of valid arguements about why or why not these changes should go in, as I see it it is...
For: Reduces lag without too much of a nerf.
Against: Reduces the cosmetic appeal of having a large group of drones, and neuters the ability of a drone ship to hit accross multiple damage types. This makes it easier to tank etc etc...
So for the visual problem, it can be fixed, in good time too maybe, but the problem of lag from drones is a pressing concern. If you don't think that you've probably never been in a fleet battle of say 60 ships with both sides using drones, the second the fleets throw em out there about 1/3 of the people crash. This is unacceptable. No arguement can be made against that simply because it's completely true, no matter how you look at it the drones are causing a major amount of combat lag during PvP. Since this is a pressing concern the loss of the coolness of having the swarm taken away is acceptable. Hopefully they will change drones to make them look cool again.
The damage problem is quite simple, I aggree. HAH DIDN'T SEE THAT ONE COMING DID YAH! *cough* anyway. The specific-ness of galentean damage types in drones is silly, they really do deserve to deal different types of damage, all other races 'cept maybe amarr (but who cares about them, they have the 'poc) can do all damage types. So yeah, it's kinda sucky for you guys. The actual damage per unit seems to add up nicely so you're not losing damage (or very little at least). The toughness is a moot point for me, the arguements are strong on both sides and I'm too tired to argue, I'm off for the night anyway.
/Shroin
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/2605/evsig6nq.png
Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. mail us if you have questions. - Laqum |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 06:51:00 -
[390]
Well the damage bonus was changed to be for all damage types.
As far as the cosmetic appeal goes: yea, it's no reason to keep a system the causes lag, but if drones were not managed as individual units you could have less lag but more drones at the same time...
|
BOldMan
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 12:50:00 -
[391]
I dont like it at all. Today we fight without turrets effect almost all time if you want to have a chance. We use no effects when we deploy drones, for a misterious reason of screen freezing when drones are shoting. Our missile are insane faster and stupid than yesterday. Defenders are pathetics and usefull only 40km more. We put in overview only our enemies. We close sound. We ***** and close and drope and give up any beauty of the game for a disputable and controversial playable game. Tommorow we will have 5 drones max. Maybe half numbers of guns. The power of a players is given by his skill training, named or high T2hnical modules, the capabilities of his net and pc. Not from his strategical and tactical abilities to fit his ship or to choose how to fight or shot or outmaneuvere in combat. Combat will reduce on some point and click and wait for few seconds to see if you win or lose. Sad direction. I dont like it at all.
|
Magunus
|
Posted - 2005.11.10 20:40:00 -
[392]
Heh. Ok, how about this:
Every time you release a drone, it causes every client able to see that drone to also see 2 extra little 'x's, that move randomly, but never move farther than 500 meters from the original drone. These two extra 'drones' never do damage, never web, never do anything other than sit there and look cool. If you lock one, it will always lock the 'real' one, even though the one shown on your screen may be one of the fake ones. The 'x's would all be entirely client side, moving randomly and would have no impact on the server. Server load would be fixed, and everyone would still get their eye-candy. If you don't want the client side lag this causes, just uncheck on the radio box in general setup labeled 'Display drone swarms'.
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.11 13:56:00 -
[393]
Then you just made the real drones 3x as hard to lock.
It's fiddly and it's annoying and it's a waste of coder's time.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Magunus
|
Posted - 2005.11.11 14:02:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Then you just made the real drones 3x as hard to lock.
It's fiddly and it's annoying and it's a waste of coder's time.
I made no drones harder to lock, they'd simply be locked as groups. It's no more 'fiddly' than occlusion, turret effects, shield effects, or any other graphical effect of the game that is not necessary for gameplay. It seems half of the people complaining about the drone changes are complaining because they've lost the 'coolness factor' of launching a large number of drones. Adding (or preserving) 'coolness factor' to a game is never a waste of a programmers time, given if the game wasn't cool, people wouldn't play it.
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.11 20:54:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Magunus
Adding (or preserving) 'coolness factor' to a game is never a waste of a programmers time, given if the game wasn't cool, people wouldn't play it.
My thoughts exactly.
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.11 21:00:00 -
[396]
Magunus, so 15 +'s, where you to click the little groups, is easier than clicking five +'s? Riight.
And "coolness factor" has to take second place behind "playability". Which is what this is about.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.11 21:47:00 -
[397]
If it was all about playability we might as well remove all representation of weapons and ships from the game.
I mean doesn't anyone notice how ridiculous Eve is becoming? Most people don't even use weapon effects or anything during fleetbattles. Most of the time the most you see of your oponents are white squares because you're shooting at such long ranges...
It seems like Eve is becoming all about streamlining combat at the expense of eyecandy, one of the games with the neatest graphics and the only thing to do with them is swich them off and reduce them to nothing...
Now drones simply get reduced in number, what's next? Turrets, other mods? Why not simply remove ships from the game alltogether, since nobody bothers to look at anything but the overview during a battle anyways...
It's just lame how in Eve everything revolves around removing graphics and making things simpler.
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2005.11.13 23:28:00 -
[398]
As I've said before, if you have the magic soloution, I'd love to hear it.
Code re-writes and the introduction of 64-bit servers seems the only way out, and they have a lead time of many months.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2005.11.14 05:14:00 -
[399]
There is no magical solution as long as the devs insist on managing drones as individual entities.
As I said before, there really wouldn't be a problem putting any number of drones on a ship if a whole swarm of them would be managed as a single NPC instead of as individual units.
And this isn't even something radical and complelty unheard of, in many games where large swarms of things appear they aren't managed as single entities either, because its simply impractical...
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 .. 14 :: [one page] |