EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 42 post(s)
Derran	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 - [1] I've been a HUGE fan of using drones since beta and always tried to keep my drone skills up for the past 2 1/2 years since I started. I then later equally in love with missiles and EW much further into the game. So seeing drones changed after the other two have been, I was like 'yay'. But after reading both the dev blog and Tuxford's stats for them, I am like 'huh'. I saw some people complaining about EW drones and I have to say, how effective is 1.5 point of jamming strength at most going to be? Against a battleship of say 20 sensor strength (guessing here since I am not in the game at the moment), it has a 7.5% chance of working. So if you have 5 EW drones being used, you have 5 chances at 7.5% using those numbers. Against a frigate, I think the numbers end up being around 15% or so (I think this is a lesser concern though as why would you in most instances want to bother jamming a frigate if you are bigger). And this is with the larger drone. The smaller drones are much less and only work at much closer range as well. As I sit here and think about a possible battle using them, it ends up being that you want to use your combat drones to kill your opponents EW drones before they have a chance of jamming you if you are really scared of it. Which makes some things about battles more interesting because I hate slug fests. Most battles for me where I am not using drones have become where I sit there, activate all my F keys and hope I come out on top. So in regards for these types of drone, I am kinda divided. I like what kind of effect it has on a battle in that you have to stay sharp and focus on the fight, but how worried should I be about them? As a EW pilot, I definitely don't want to have them replace EW in general. One thing I definitely DO like is making them twice as damaging and tough but cutting the amount you can use by the same amount. I hate having space cluttered up with all those drones and it creates unneccessary lag. While it has this cool feeling of having all these little 'ships' at your command, the coolness factor doesn't outweigh the cons. What I don't like is giving the Gallente drone ships that thermal drone damage bonus. It is kind limiting and I think will hurt the dominix if it is just going for straight damage and wants some versatility. I'd like all the drone carriers to just have pure drone damage bonus, not just a bonus to the type of drone damage. On the opposite side of that thought however is that with the other types of drones available and drone carriers still having a drone bay more sizable than other ships you might get worried about what that enemy carrier could be carrying. It also adds a possible logistics role to those drone carriers as well. One idea I thought of for these changes that may make it feel more fair to some people is drones having a capicitor amount that could run out. That way they could run out of cap trying to repair someone, causing a repair delay or being the drones being unable to use EW on someone. Maybe it could recharge or maybe you have to pull them back to recharge, who knows. I'm not sure if the logistics implementing cap would become a nightmare but it is the only thing that comes off the top of my head. I'd like it to stay unlimited in cap for drone weapons but for module style abilities on them, maybe it could work better and not feel overpowered.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:02:00 - [2] I've been a HUGE fan of using drones since beta and always tried to keep my drone skills up for the past 2 1/2 years since I started. I then later equally in love with missiles and EW much further into the game. So seeing drones changed after the other two have been, I was like 'yay'. But after reading both the dev blog and Tuxford's stats for them, I am like 'huh'. I saw some people complaining about EW drones and I have to say, how effective is 1.5 point of jamming strength at most going to be? Against a battleship of say 20 sensor strength (guessing here since I am not in the game at the moment), it has a 7.5% chance of working. So if you have 5 EW drones being used, you have 5 chances at 7.5% using those numbers. Against a frigate, I think the numbers end up being around 15% or so (I think this is a lesser concern though as why would you in most instances want to bother jamming a frigate if you are bigger). And this is with the larger drone. The smaller drones are much less and only work at much closer range as well. As I sit here and think about a possible battle using them, it ends up being that you want to use your combat drones to kill your opponents EW drones before they have a chance of jamming you if you are really scared of it. Which makes some things about battles more interesting because I hate slug fests. Most battles for me where I am not using drones have become where I sit there, activate all my F keys and hope I come out on top. So in regards for these types of drone, I am kinda divided. I like what kind of effect it has on a battle in that you have to stay sharp and focus on the fight, but how worried should I be about them? As a EW pilot, I definitely don't want to have them replace EW in general. One thing I definitely DO like is making them twice as damaging and tough but cutting the amount you can use by the same amount. I hate having space cluttered up with all those drones and it creates unneccessary lag. While it has this cool feeling of having all these little 'ships' at your command, the coolness factor doesn't outweigh the cons. What I don't like is giving the Gallente drone ships that thermal drone damage bonus. It is kind limiting and I think will hurt the dominix if it is just going for straight damage and wants some versatility. I'd like all the drone carriers to just have pure drone damage bonus, not just a bonus to the type of drone damage. On the opposite side of that thought however is that with the other types of drones available and drone carriers still having a drone bay more sizable than other ships you might get worried about what that enemy carrier could be carrying. It also adds a possible logistics role to those drone carriers as well. One idea I thought of for these changes that may make it feel more fair to some people is drones having a capicitor amount that could run out. That way they could run out of cap trying to repair someone, causing a repair delay or being the drones being unable to use EW on someone. Maybe it could recharge or maybe you have to pull them back to recharge, who knows. I'm not sure if the logistics implementing cap would become a nightmare but it is the only thing that comes off the top of my head. I'd like it to stay unlimited in cap for drone weapons but for module style abilities on them, maybe it could work better and not feel overpowered.
Derran	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Ishtar/Dominix damage bonus: This pretty much kills damage diversification. I think the T2 drones and skills were enough of a way to encourage specialization in a type, since at least there was the option of spending extra training time if you wanted to diversify. I pretty much NEVER use just one damage type, preferring a combination whenever possible. This also means there will be much less demand for T2 medium and heavy drones other than the Hammerhead II and Ogre II. Couldn't be described any better. The T2 specialization is good enough. I don't agree the effect should be brought over to the tech 1 ships. It ends being that there will be NO explosive or kinetic damage bonuses on drones as neither Caldari nor Minmatar have a drone carrier like the Vexor and Arbitrator. Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Overall, I think the additions are going to mean more stuff to try to manage during a battle, making things that much more confusing, and the "nerfs" are mainly going to pigeonhole players through things like racial damage bonuses and fewer options for ships with smaller bays. Again, while I can see the need to fix a game resources problem, some of this seems to be oversimplified (half drone bays, 5 max control) while other parts seem overly complicated (more skills/modules, special effects drones). I tend to agree with the points as presented really. However, the way some people describe the limit, you'd think the world was ending. So I have to ask, what did they do before that +1 drone control bonus even existed? It wasn't always there after all. I do completely agree that the straightforward halving part is way too simplified and each ship should be examined for it. I still do like making drones do more damage and be tougher and reducing the amount controled by the equivalent amount, but for the drone carriers, I think you should still be able to spit out more as they die. With even less drone bay, you become more toothless. I say leave the drone bays as they are at least for the drone carriers. Increasing the damage in general to drones on the drone carriers themselves so that they don't take a major hit in terms of firepower would be a satisfying solution too. I become a bit worried that drone carriers could end up taking a back seat to ships that are not supposed to be one. I hope the people testing it on Sisi can be more objective when they try the changes for ALL the ships, assuming they are like me and can fly almost all ships. One good thing about reducing the amount of space is maybe they will stop hugging each other in space and slowing themselves down. Damn that is annoying.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Derran on 31/10/2005 20:01:07 Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Ishtar/Dominix damage bonus: This pretty much kills damage diversification. I think the T2 drones and skills were enough of a way to encourage specialization in a type, since at least there was the option of spending extra training time if you wanted to diversify. I pretty much NEVER use just one damage type, preferring a combination whenever possible. This also means there will be much less demand for T2 medium and heavy drones other than the Hammerhead II and Ogre II. Couldn't be described any better. The T2 specialization is good enough. I don't agree the effect should be brought over to the tech 1 ships. It ends being that there will be NO explosive or kinetic damage bonuses on drones as neither Caldari nor Minmatar have a drone carrier like the Vexor and Arbitrator. Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Overall, I think the additions are going to mean more stuff to try to manage during a battle, making things that much more confusing, and the "nerfs" are mainly going to pigeonhole players through things like racial damage bonuses and fewer options for ships with smaller bays. Again, while I can see the need to fix a game resources problem, some of this seems to be oversimplified (half drone bays, 5 max control) while other parts seem overly complicated (more skills/modules, special effects drones). I tend to agree with the points as presented really. However, the way some people describe the limit, you'd think the world was ending. So I have to ask, what did they do before that +1 drone control bonus even existed? It wasn't always there after all. Wildmeister's idea sounds rather intriguing though in regards of keeping the control bonus but changing the drone interfacing skill. Maybe the drone carriers can have strict drone bonuses per level of ship skill. Most drone carrier pilots I know don't use the large or medium turret damage part at all and usually use the one turret type below that. I do completely agree that the straightforward halving part is way too simplified and each ship should be examined for it. I still do like making drones do more damage and be tougher and reducing the amount controled by the equivalent amount, but for the drone carriers, I think you should still be able to spit out more as they die. With even less drone bay, you become more toothless. I say leave the drone bays as they are at least for the drone carriers. Increasing the damage in general to drones on the drone carriers themselves so that they don't take a major hit in terms of firepower would be a satisfying solution too. I become a bit worried that drone carriers could end up taking a back seat to ships that are not supposed to be one. I hope the people testing it on Sisi can be more objective when they try the changes for ALL the ships, assuming they are like me and can fly almost all ships. One good thing about reducing the amount of space is maybe they will stop hugging each other in space and slowing themselves down. Damn that is annoying.
Derran	Posted - 2005.10.31 20:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Riddle me this: Now that there's only 5 drones out there, and these drones do ALOT more damage (regardless of the pathetic thermal only bonuses for galletne's) these 5 drones will be the first targets of any enemy. One volley and their toast..that is unless heavy drones have more HP than a frigate...which I doubt. So effectively, you're putting all the damage into 5 highly killable targets. Unless the speed, signature, and armor/hp of the drone's can be increased/decresed to incredible levels. The HP is supposed to be increased. They already stated that in the blog. Same goes for speed.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.10.31 20:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Riddle me this: Now that there's only 5 drones out there, and these drones do ALOT more damage (regardless of the pathetic thermal only bonuses for galletne's) these 5 drones will be the first targets of any enemy. One volley and their toast..that is unless heavy drones have more HP than a frigate...which I doubt. So effectively, you're putting all the damage into 5 highly killable targets. Unless the speed, signature, and armor/hp of the drone's can be increased/decresed to incredible levels. The HP is supposed to be increased. They already stated that in the blog. Same goes for speed.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.01 17:06:00 - [7] I was thinking about all the comments concerning CCP taking the easy way out by reducing drone lag by reducing the amount controlled and increasing effectiveness. But one has to consider that you can't get blood from a stone. At some point you have to say 'stop, wait, too much.' and this generally comes from people taking advantage of things that didn't fit into the spirit of the way it was designed and I am sure when you someone sits back and thinks about this, this has happened ALOT in the past (cruise missiles in standard launchers anyone?). So when, exactly, is the amount of drones too much? People throw out numbers of 15. Sure, when you are all by yourself. But what about when there are several drone carriers? For example, my alliance faces Arbitrator raids quite frequently. They come by somewhat often in groups of 5-6, once they even came in 15-16. With 15, that is like 225 drones assuming max skills. Though I think less than half of them had that so I am guessing only about 200-210 drones were out that time, where on the more regular raids, it is between 75-85 drones. Either amount is alot of drones, especially 200. You can optimize all you want but unless you have been living under a rock and not played other MMORPGs ever, you can't tell me there won't still going to be a strain on resources when you have that many things active on the screen doing their thing. I also didn't see anyone complaining they didn't have enough drones back before the ships had the +1 extra drone per level bonus either. Now against those 15 arbies, I'd say more than half of those drones were on me (the price I pay for using a scorpion. I'm primary!) and let me tell you, it was LAGGY. And just 4 days ago, I was all by myself and I had over about 70-80 on me from 6 arbies and suffered from some slight lag, and I still felt that was alot. I'd probably would have been lagged horribly again if my system wasn't rather high spec and I didn't turn down the effects. Now, some may consider it an exploit to lag someone to death like that (not that I died since I destroyed all the drones after using a smartbomb 3 times because the 6 man cruiser group with their drones couldn't pierce my tanking), but I don't. They are in their prefered ship because they like it, it works, and using it to its maximum effect. I can't fault them for that. I'd do it too. I happen to like using drones. But I sincerely doubt the devs actually envisioned what it would be like if a whole bunch of people got together in nothing but drone carriers and had near max skills and launched them all. You can't think of everything. If you could, there wouldn't be any software bugs. That recent raid experience also leads to the next good thing about this change. Not only will reducing the amount fix the lag issue that can be caused easily from drone carrier groups, it would make it harder to easily counter drone ships. I don't feel I should be able to wipe away hordes and hordes of drones like that in under 30s with a single large smart bomb. Making them tougher makes it take more effort. I'll likely be using my drones against theirs after the patch. All that being said, I still don't buy into halving the drone bay of ships. The amount controlled, sure. Keep the drone bay as it is so as they get killed, you can launch more as needed. Or switch to another drone type on the fly if you wish.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.01 17:06:00 - [8] I was thinking about all the comments concerning CCP taking the easy way out by reducing drone lag by reducing the amount controlled and increasing effectiveness. But one has to consider that you can't get blood from a stone. At some point you have to say 'stop, wait, too much.' and this generally comes from people taking advantage of things that didn't fit into the spirit of the way it was designed and I am sure when you someone sits back and thinks about this, this has happened ALOT in the past (cruise missiles in standard launchers anyone?). So when, exactly, is the amount of drones too much? People throw out numbers of 15. Sure, when you are all by yourself. But what about when there are several drone carriers? For example, my alliance faces Arbitrator raids quite frequently. They come by somewhat often in groups of 5-6, once they even came in 15-16. With 15, that is like 225 drones assuming max skills. Though I think less than half of them had that so I am guessing only about 200-210 drones were out that time, where on the more regular raids, it is between 75-85 drones. Either amount is alot of drones, especially 200. You can optimize all you want but unless you have been living under a rock and not played other MMORPGs ever, you can't tell me there won't still going to be a strain on resources when you have that many things active on the screen doing their thing. I also didn't see anyone complaining they didn't have enough drones back before the ships had the +1 extra drone per level bonus either. Now against those 15 arbies, I'd say more than half of those drones were on me (the price I pay for using a scorpion. I'm primary!) and let me tell you, it was LAGGY. And just 4 days ago, I was all by myself and I had over about 70-80 on me from 6 arbies and suffered from some slight lag, and I still felt that was alot. I'd probably would have been lagged horribly again if my system wasn't rather high spec and I didn't turn down the effects. Now, some may consider it an exploit to lag someone to death like that (not that I died since I destroyed all the drones after using a smartbomb 3 times because the 6 man cruiser group with their drones couldn't pierce my tanking), but I don't. They are in their prefered ship because they like it, it works, and using it to its maximum effect. I can't fault them for that. I'd do it too. I happen to like using drones. But I sincerely doubt the devs actually envisioned what it would be like if a whole bunch of people got together in nothing but drone carriers and had near max skills and launched them all. You can't think of everything. If you could, there wouldn't be any software bugs. That recent raid experience also leads to the next good thing about this change. Not only will reducing the amount fix the lag issue that can be caused easily from drone carrier groups, it would make it harder to easily counter drone ships. I don't feel I should be able to wipe away hordes and hordes of drones like that in under 30s with a single large smart bomb. Making them tougher makes it take more effort. I'll likely be using my drones against theirs after the patch. All that being said, I still don't buy into halving the drone bay of ships. The amount controlled, sure. Keep the drone bay as it is so as they get killed, you can launch more as needed. Or switch to another drone type on the fly if you wish.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.01 18:25:00 - [9] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 01/11/2005 17:53:38 "Was more concerned about the Vexor and Ishtar actually, they get (essentially) no spares." Oh.. but was under impression the drone bay size bonus remains untouched, which would actually mean they get boost in terms of drone hp? old: 250 + 250 = 500 drone bay = 20 heavies new: 125 + 250 = 375 drone bay = 15 heavies = 30 'old' heavies hp might be wrong on this one though ^^;; (edited for wrong heavy drone size >.<;; I don't think you are wrong on the HP of drones. The actual amount may be the question. It is in the dev blog that drones get a HP increase, and that there will be a skill (Drone Durability) that will also increase it as well.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.01 18:25:00 - [10] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 01/11/2005 17:53:38 "Was more concerned about the Vexor and Ishtar actually, they get (essentially) no spares." Oh.. but was under impression the drone bay size bonus remains untouched, which would actually mean they get boost in terms of drone hp? old: 250 + 250 = 500 drone bay = 20 heavies new: 125 + 250 = 375 drone bay = 15 heavies = 30 'old' heavies hp might be wrong on this one though ^^;; (edited for wrong heavy drone size >.<;; I don't think you are wrong on the HP of drones. The actual amount may be the question. It is in the dev blog that drones get a HP increase, and that there will be a skill (Drone Durability) that will also increase it as well.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:34:00 - [11] Been wondering something. Is the heavy drones skill going to change at all or remain as it is? Right now it sits at providing 5% drone damage per skill level. With the changes, you then have Drone Interfacing providing 20% per level (for me it would be 100%) and the drone ships providing 10% per level (40% total for me). Just tried crunching those numbers. Under the changes, if the heavy drone base damage stays the same, it would mean I would do 70.84 damage every 2 seconds I think. Or did I miss something. Not sure if the drone damage modifier mentioned on its stats is calculated with the current heavy drone skill bonus or not.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:34:00 - [12] Been wondering something. Is the heavy drones skill going to change at all or remain as it is? Right now it sits at providing 5% drone damage per skill level. With the changes, you then have Drone Interfacing providing 20% per level (for me it would be 100%) and the drone ships providing 10% per level (40% total for me). Just tried crunching those numbers. Under the changes, if the heavy drone base damage stays the same, it would mean I would do 70.84 damage every 2 seconds I think. Or did I miss something. Not sure if the drone damage modifier mentioned on its stats is calculated with the current heavy drone skill bonus or not.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.01 21:12:00 - [13] Edited by: Derran on 01/11/2005 21:14:13 Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Dethra Edited by: Dethra on 01/11/2005 21:00:23 let me start out by saying you'll have to forgive me; I didn't read all 700ish posts (23 pages) first. I know, someone's probably already posted this. Thats all 20 pages of posts are because around page 20 Tuxford posted that it was going to be all damage types instead of just thermal/em. Page 19 actually. Around where several people started cheering. It is the only real change since the original post. Everything else is in the devblog Dev Blog
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.01 21:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Derran on 01/11/2005 21:14:13 Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Dethra Edited by: Dethra on 01/11/2005 21:00:23 let me start out by saying you'll have to forgive me; I didn't read all 700ish posts (23 pages) first. I know, someone's probably already posted this. Thats all 20 pages of posts are because around page 20 Tuxford posted that it was going to be all damage types instead of just thermal/em. Page 19 actually. Around where several people started cheering. It is the only real change since the original post. Everything else is in the devblog Dev Blog
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.01 21:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Jim Raynor While this certainly isn't a missile thread, I just find it lame that Gallente and their stupid drones might have been balanced out a bit, and they too would have to deal with racial constraints just like Caldari ships must deal with, but it seems CCP would rather just put that burden on Caldari ships and no one else, well, whatever. Not to hijack the thread or anything but if they do the same for Caldari ships now, they'd also have to keep it fair and do the same on all the races stealth bombers as well. And also make the similiar change for those tech 1 missile frigates which I think are supposed to change to have the racial specific damage type. It has to be carefully examined to keep it fair though on all ships. I never really understood how people do DPS calculations though. Isn't that based on 100% probability of hitting which only missiles really have? I don't include drones because they CAN miss.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.01 21:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim Raynor While this certainly isn't a missile thread, I just find it lame that Gallente and their stupid drones might have been balanced out a bit, and they too would have to deal with racial constraints just like Caldari ships must deal with, but it seems CCP would rather just put that burden on Caldari ships and no one else, well, whatever. Not to hijack the thread or anything but if they do the same for Caldari ships now, they'd also have to keep it fair and do the same on all the races stealth bombers as well. And also make the similiar change for those tech 1 missile frigates which I think are supposed to change to have the racial specific damage type. It has to be carefully examined to keep it fair though on all ships. I never really understood how people do DPS calculations though. Isn't that based on 100% probability of hitting which only missiles really have? I don't include drones because they CAN miss.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Ebedar Originally by: Tuxford I've made a new blog that explains the drone reduction changes a bit better so head over there and give it a look. Dev blog You say drone ships like the Domi will be getting a bonus to drone HP - does that mean the hybrid damage bonus is going to be dropped? I hope so. I never bothered using it. I don't like ships where I only seem to be able to take advantage of half the ship bonus like on my Eagle or on the Typhoon.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:05:00 - [18] Edited by: Derran on 02/11/2005 15:27:10 Originally by: Ebedar Originally by: Tuxford I've made a new blog that explains the drone reduction changes a bit better so head over there and give it a look. Dev blog You say drone ships like the Domi will be getting a bonus to drone HP - does that mean the hybrid damage bonus is going to be dropped? I hope so. I rarely bother using it. I don't like ships where it is hard to take full advantage of both bonuses like on my Eagle (do you go full sniper or no?)or on the Typhoon (half turret/half missile).
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:07:00 - [19] Glad the devblog explained it in more detail. People were jumping to too many conclusions. The examples pretty much reflected what I was thinking was going to happen, and helped clear up the whole Gallente AF/HAC thing for me more as well. The whole EW thing with drones still doesn't jump out and grab me though. But like all things, you will never know how things will really be until you try it without bias. I also always saw it like this. Do you want 100 pennies or one $1 bill? Personally, I'd rather the dollar bill. Either way, it ends up being the same thing though.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:07:00 - [20] Glad the devblog explained it in more detail. People were jumping to too many conclusions. The examples pretty much reflected what I was thinking was going to happen, and helped clear up the whole Gallente AF/HAC thing for me more as well. The whole EW thing with drones still doesn't jump out and grab me though. But like all things, you will never know how things will really be until you try it without bias. I also always saw it like this. Do you want 100 pennies or one $1 bill? Personally, I'd rather the dollar bill. Either way, it ends up being the same thing though.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:41:00 - [21] Edited by: Derran on 02/11/2005 15:45:43 Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Derran I hope so. I rarely bother using it. I don't like ships where it is hard to take full advantage of both bonuses like on my Eagle (do you go full sniper or no?)or on the Typhoon (half turret/half missile). Just becuase you don't use the six turret slots on your Dominix doesn't mean that other people don't. I do use them. They are medium tech II 250mm railguns.:) They work reasonably well too even with the lack of a ship bonus. I was talking about in comparison to bonuses other ships have. Like a Tempest, Scorpion, Armageddon, etc.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:41:00 - [22] Edited by: Derran on 02/11/2005 15:45:43 Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Derran I hope so. I rarely bother using it. I don't like ships where it is hard to take full advantage of both bonuses like on my Eagle (do you go full sniper or no?)or on the Typhoon (half turret/half missile). Just becuase you don't use the six turret slots on your Dominix doesn't mean that other people don't. I do use them. They are medium tech II 250mm railguns.:) They work reasonably well too even with the lack of a ship bonus. I was talking about in comparison to bonuses other ships have. Like a Tempest, Scorpion, Armageddon, etc.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Tuxford To clear this up then drone hitpoint bonus on ship skills is part of the drone bonus, just as it effectively is on the drone control bonus. That is it keeps its hybrid bonus. Damn. Oh well.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Tuxford To clear this up then drone hitpoint bonus on ship skills is part of the drone bonus, just as it effectively is on the drone control bonus. That is it keeps its hybrid bonus. Damn. Oh well.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Derran on 02/11/2005 19:31:40 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 18:45:40 Tux, I'm a drone user so it might surprise you to hear this, but: Could we please have a reduction in heavy drone tracking / effective damage vs. small ships? Along with this, I'd like a boost to light drone effectiveness against those same small ships. At the moment, heavy drones are much too effective vs all ship types (sort of the old missile problem), while light drones are very close to useles (even a swarm of them won't really harm an interceptor). I'd like some reason to also use light and medium drones, please, instead of just always heavies if I can fit them. I agree in regards to the tracking for the heavy drones. I'm a Dominix and Scorpion pilot, they are the only battleships I use now. The only reason that makes me use 15 medium drones on my Scorpion (I can control 10) is to make FoFs ineffective against me. Other than that, for the Scorpion, I don't care about the damage overall of them because if the opponent can't shoot me, who cares. But on my dominix, there has been no reason to use light/medium drones. They are just a 'step down' really on a Dominix for me.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:28:00 - [26] Edited by: Derran on 02/11/2005 19:31:40 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 18:45:40 Tux, I'm a drone user so it might surprise you to hear this, but: Could we please have a reduction in heavy drone tracking / effective damage vs. small ships? Along with this, I'd like a boost to light drone effectiveness against those same small ships. At the moment, heavy drones are much too effective vs all ship types (sort of the old missile problem), while light drones are very close to useles (even a swarm of them won't really harm an interceptor). I'd like some reason to also use light and medium drones, please, instead of just always heavies if I can fit them. I agree in regards to the tracking for the heavy drones. I'm a Dominix and Scorpion pilot, they are the only battleships I use now. The only reason that makes me use 15 medium drones on my Scorpion (I can control 10) is to make FoFs ineffective against me. Other than that, for the Scorpion, I don't care about the damage overall of them because if the opponent can't shoot me, who cares. But on my dominix, there has been no reason to use light/medium drones. They are just a 'step down' really on a Dominix for me.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Clavius XIV With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone dps. Did you do the math? I don't have all the figures in front of me currently but based on what I remember off the top of my head, I'll throw some fairly attainable skill levels out there that average people train train the skills up to then stop unless they are drone specialists. Using the Prophecy now: 22 base heavy drone damage Heavy Drone 4 Drone Interfacing 4 I think I am forgetting one more multiplier in there but I'll leave it out of both equations. So currently you have 2 heavy drones. 22 * 1.2 (Heavy Drones 4) = 26.4 per drone every 2 seconds Effectively 52.8 every 2 seconds because you can have 2 heavies. After changes: 22 * 1.2 (Heavy Drones 4) * 1.8 (Drone Interfacing 4) = 47.52 Effectively 47.52 every 2 seconds because after changes, you can only have 1 heavy drone in a Prophecy's drone bay. Around a 5 point reduction for a non drone carrier.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Clavius XIV With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone dps. Did you do the math? I don't have all the figures in front of me currently but based on what I remember off the top of my head, I'll throw some fairly attainable skill levels out there that average people train train the skills up to then stop unless they are drone specialists. Using the Prophecy now: 22 base heavy drone damage Heavy Drone 4 Drone Interfacing 4 I think I am forgetting one more multiplier in there but I'll leave it out of both equations. So currently you have 2 heavy drones. 22 * 1.2 (Heavy Drones 4) = 26.4 per drone every 2 seconds Effectively 52.8 every 2 seconds because you can have 2 heavies. After changes: 22 * 1.2 (Heavy Drones 4) * 1.8 (Drone Interfacing 4) = 47.52 Effectively 47.52 every 2 seconds because after changes, you can only have 1 heavy drone in a Prophecy's drone bay. Around a 5 point reduction for a non drone carrier.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Porro Thats still 5 drones short. Drone interfacing gives 20% to mining, that would equal 10 mining drones at current state, not 15. And tuxford didnt forget if you read the devblog he says it felt wrong giving a battleship a mining bonus. I think. :P I agree with him. Using a battleship to mine would be like using a sports car to haul fish. Nothing is going to stop you from doing it, but that isn't what it is for.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Porro Thats still 5 drones short. Drone interfacing gives 20% to mining, that would equal 10 mining drones at current state, not 15. And tuxford didnt forget if you read the devblog he says it felt wrong giving a battleship a mining bonus. I think. :P I agree with him. Using a battleship to mine would be like using a sports car to haul fish. Nothing is going to stop you from doing it, but that isn't what it is for.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:40:00 - [31] Originally by: Zeddicus Zu'l See my post above where i qouted Tuxford saying that the mining bonus on a BS is wrong, and it will never happen on the Moros TomB should have hit Tux with his nerf bat o' doom for even thinking of a mining Moros.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Zeddicus Zu'l See my post above where i qouted Tuxford saying that the mining bonus on a BS is wrong, and it will never happen on the Moros TomB should have hit Tux with his nerf bat o' doom for even thinking of a mining Moros.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:01:00 - [33] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: Farjung fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. VERY slightly more, and combined with the FAR less lock times, this results in overall less survivability. This coupled with less total damage over time, as you have 50% more travel time with the drones. Quote: As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed. It's not about telling them to launch and attack, it's about travel times. 50% more travel time is 50% more travel time, regardless of how good you are with the interface. Additionally, this is assuming you live long enough to go through all your drones and wait for wave upon wave to travel to the target. What about the speed increase drones will be getting and the skill that boosts it?
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: Farjung fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. VERY slightly more, and combined with the FAR less lock times, this results in overall less survivability. This coupled with less total damage over time, as you have 50% more travel time with the drones. Quote: As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed. It's not about telling them to launch and attack, it's about travel times. 50% more travel time is 50% more travel time, regardless of how good you are with the interface. Additionally, this is assuming you live long enough to go through all your drones and wait for wave upon wave to travel to the target. What about the speed increase drones will be getting and the skill that boosts it?
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems. Not at all. It's a rank 5 skill. Heavy drone ops is the preq for T2 heavy drones, which is fine too. And drone Interfacing requires Drones 5, a rank 1 skill, which is a somewhat easy skill to train fully for newbies who would like to specialize. The change makes things far better for specialization in drone carriers really. For Gallente ships, you have blaster boats then drone ships. But everyone trains drones anyway for their non drone carrier ships so it hardly makes the drone skill tree very special.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems. Not at all. It's a rank 5 skill. Heavy drone ops is the preq for T2 heavy drones, which is fine too. And drone Interfacing requires Drones 5, a rank 1 skill, which is a somewhat easy skill to train fully for newbies who would like to specialize. The change makes things far better for specialization in drone carriers really. For Gallente ships, you have blaster boats then drone ships. But everyone trains drones anyway for their non drone carrier ships so it hardly makes the drone skill tree very special.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: Maya Rkell Drone ships will be MORE effective with the new modules. Explain how a Dominix with the new modules is MORE effective than a Megathron with the new modules? Or are you saying you think only the Dominix can fit the new modules? Dominix will be less effective with the new drones and the new modules in comparison to their efficacy now, as they will be about the same effectiveness as non-drone ships. A Megathron is a tier II battleship and the Dominix is tier I so I hope no one expects them to be the same. Unless you want to put Megathron sales into the toilet. For Kaell, just to throw this out there, if EWar drones weren't even on the table, do you think the Dominix would be just be as effective or moreso after the change as it is now?
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: Maya Rkell Drone ships will be MORE effective with the new modules. Explain how a Dominix with the new modules is MORE effective than a Megathron with the new modules? Or are you saying you think only the Dominix can fit the new modules? Dominix will be less effective with the new drones and the new modules in comparison to their efficacy now, as they will be about the same effectiveness as non-drone ships. A Megathron is a tier II battleship and the Dominix is tier I so I hope no one expects them to be the same. Unless you want to put Megathron sales into the toilet. For Kaell, just to throw this out there, if EWar drones weren't even on the table, do you think the Dominix would be just be as effective or moreso after the change as it is now?
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Derran on 03/11/2005 00:38:32 Originally by: Kaell Meynn If all of the new drones were scrapped, I'd think it would be about a wash as to wether it was better or worse off. I don't like that the drones will be easier to kill because they are easier to lock and the fielded drones have about 70% of the HPs as the fielded drones do now, but this is slightly mitigated by their reduced vulnerability to smartbombs, and thier ability to field a third wave of drones in drawn out combats (not common of PvP). Don't forget they are got a HP increase in the works that will do exactly that. Make combat last longer. Originally by: Kaell Meynn With the new drone modules (which we have no specs on), and the new skills (also no specs on them), I think this might make a Dominix a little better off than it was before the changes, it's a pretty close wash overall given Locktimes, FieldableHPs, ReserveHPs, Overdamage, and NewSkills. IF and ONLY IF the new drones aren't implemented. If they are, then the changes help non-Dominix more than they do Dominix. Don't get me wrong, I think the new drones are cool and add some flavor to the game, but currently it's at the expense of the Dominix... the Dominix just needs to have a +10%/level drone efficiency bonus, as it effectively does now, rather than a Damage and Mining and slight HP only bonus (and I think they are saying the Dominix doesn't get the mining bonus, just without stating it explicitly because they know people will rightfully complain). What exactly is making you say they are easier to lock and kill? I thought I read somewhere that the sig radius is getting a tweak that should make it take longer to lock. Right now, with my sig analysis skill at 4, it took me 12s to lock a wasp. 12s is a long time. I would think it would be time enough for one of those drones to reach me and get so close my large guns probably wouldn't be able to hit it. I only say this because I never bothered actually shooting at drones while in combat before. I would just kill the ship controlling them unless I had a large smartbomb on.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 00:36:00 - [40] Edited by: Derran on 03/11/2005 00:38:32 Originally by: Kaell Meynn If all of the new drones were scrapped, I'd think it would be about a wash as to wether it was better or worse off. I don't like that the drones will be easier to kill because they are easier to lock and the fielded drones have about 70% of the HPs as the fielded drones do now, but this is slightly mitigated by their reduced vulnerability to smartbombs, and thier ability to field a third wave of drones in drawn out combats (not common of PvP). Don't forget they are got a HP increase in the works that will do exactly that. Make combat last longer. Originally by: Kaell Meynn With the new drone modules (which we have no specs on), and the new skills (also no specs on them), I think this might make a Dominix a little better off than it was before the changes, it's a pretty close wash overall given Locktimes, FieldableHPs, ReserveHPs, Overdamage, and NewSkills. IF and ONLY IF the new drones aren't implemented. If they are, then the changes help non-Dominix more than they do Dominix. Don't get me wrong, I think the new drones are cool and add some flavor to the game, but currently it's at the expense of the Dominix... the Dominix just needs to have a +10%/level drone efficiency bonus, as it effectively does now, rather than a Damage and Mining and slight HP only bonus (and I think they are saying the Dominix doesn't get the mining bonus, just without stating it explicitly because they know people will rightfully complain). What exactly is making you say they are easier to lock and kill? I thought I read somewhere that the sig radius is getting a tweak that should make it take longer to lock. Right now, with my sig analysis skill at 4, it took me 12s to lock a wasp. 12s is a long time. I would think it would be time enough for one of those drones to reach me and get so close my large guns probably wouldn't be able to hit it. I only say this because I never bothered actually shooting at drones while in combat before. I would just kill the ship controlling them unless I had a large smartbomb on.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:13:00 - [41] Edited by: Derran on 03/11/2005 01:13:42 Originally by: Kaell Meynn EDIT2: Although the longer combat will reduce the penalty the Domi recieves from drone travel time due to the increased frailty of the drones, if the combat is made long enough, it'll make them run out of drones though... unless during the HP boost, drones also get a HP boost. That could happen. But with the speed increase, hopefully travel time won't actually be as long but it does depend on the amount of speed increase. Originally by: Kaell Meynn 1) Where did you read that drones were getting smaller sig? I didn't see that in either blog. Also, it needs to be a bonus FOR THE DOMINIX, not for all drones. It is the Dominix that is getting less fielded drones and thus hurt by the lower lock times. There is a couple of posts and many pages here which is why I said I thought I read it somewhere. Maybe not. Originally by: Kaell Meynn 3) That's exactly my point. No one tried to attack drones before because there were so many and it was a pain to try in ombat with 15 different targets. With 5, everyone will be killing drones, thus showing exactly my point on that issue. But can you actually HIT them easily while they are moving in orbit around you? My large guns couldn't but I kinda gave up after a few shots so I didn't try very long. Maybe that is why Tux isn't taking away the Dominix's large hybrid gun damage bonus so still has some non-drone punching power.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:13:00 - [42] Edited by: Derran on 03/11/2005 01:13:42 Originally by: Kaell Meynn EDIT2: Although the longer combat will reduce the penalty the Domi recieves from drone travel time due to the increased frailty of the drones, if the combat is made long enough, it'll make them run out of drones though... unless during the HP boost, drones also get a HP boost. That could happen. But with the speed increase, hopefully travel time won't actually be as long but it does depend on the amount of speed increase. Originally by: Kaell Meynn 1) Where did you read that drones were getting smaller sig? I didn't see that in either blog. Also, it needs to be a bonus FOR THE DOMINIX, not for all drones. It is the Dominix that is getting less fielded drones and thus hurt by the lower lock times. There is a couple of posts and many pages here which is why I said I thought I read it somewhere. Maybe not. Originally by: Kaell Meynn 3) That's exactly my point. No one tried to attack drones before because there were so many and it was a pain to try in ombat with 15 different targets. With 5, everyone will be killing drones, thus showing exactly my point on that issue. But can you actually HIT them easily while they are moving in orbit around you? My large guns couldn't but I kinda gave up after a few shots so I didn't try very long. Maybe that is why Tux isn't taking away the Dominix's large hybrid gun damage bonus so still has some non-drone punching power.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:44:00 - [43] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Hit them with missiles? Sure, and they pop pretty quick too. Can also have your friend 20km away shoot them, or if you are a frigate with 5 buddies, you can all hit them. Not nerfing another aspect of the ship doesn't excuese nerfing one aspect when a nerf wasnt needed or intended. That'd be like taking away half of a Raven's missile hardpoints (assuming the Raven doesn't need a nerf, which is debatable) and saying "yeah, that's why I didn't take away your missile velocity bonus! :D You're welcome!". It just doesn't fly. If you are talking about smaller ships, then I could see rockets or standard missiles doing something but the damage from the drones would probably just become overwhelming when up all brought to bear against that kind of ship. A group of ships could become a problem but they can kind of be a problem now anyway, right? Especially once one of them jams you. You are also on the short end of the stick when you are facing multiple opponents too. Also you could look at it like this. It would be a good way to keep the 2nd opponent off of you as well, right? You could also try to protect your drones with EW. EW drone carriers works freakishly well. But I hope you also don't mean cruise or torps, and maybe even heavies although I don't use those anymore but I heard they suck on frigates. I am also a Scorpion pilot and I carry 15 medium drones as I can control 10. I carry them specifically so when I jam someone and it is another Scorp or Raven, if they have any FoFs, they won't do anything to me. I also faced this myself when I was jammed as well and I was engulfed by drones. The FoF missiles seem to go after whatever drone they want, not one specific drone, spreading the damage out among them. And when they hit, it did about 30 damage. My regular missile skills before the new skills I have had at 5 for awhile, but I can't see that damage increasing by about more than 5-15 points once I bring the rest of the newer skills up to 5. Considering the RoF of cruise and torp launchers, and the HP increase drones would have, I don't think you'd have much to worry about from missiles a Scorpion or Raven use.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 01:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Hit them with missiles? Sure, and they pop pretty quick too. Can also have your friend 20km away shoot them, or if you are a frigate with 5 buddies, you can all hit them. Not nerfing another aspect of the ship doesn't excuese nerfing one aspect when a nerf wasnt needed or intended. That'd be like taking away half of a Raven's missile hardpoints (assuming the Raven doesn't need a nerf, which is debatable) and saying "yeah, that's why I didn't take away your missile velocity bonus! :D You're welcome!". It just doesn't fly. If you are talking about smaller ships, then I could see rockets or standard missiles doing something but the damage from the drones would probably just become overwhelming when up all brought to bear against that kind of ship. A group of ships could become a problem but they can kind of be a problem now anyway, right? Especially once one of them jams you. You are also on the short end of the stick when you are facing multiple opponents too. Also you could look at it like this. It would be a good way to keep the 2nd opponent off of you as well, right? You could also try to protect your drones with EW. EW drone carriers works freakishly well. But I hope you also don't mean cruise or torps, and maybe even heavies although I don't use those anymore but I heard they suck on frigates. I am also a Scorpion pilot and I carry 15 medium drones as I can control 10. I carry them specifically so when I jam someone and it is another Scorp or Raven, if they have any FoFs, they won't do anything to me. I also faced this myself when I was jammed as well and I was engulfed by drones. The FoF missiles seem to go after whatever drone they want, not one specific drone, spreading the damage out among them. And when they hit, it did about 30 damage. My regular missile skills before the new skills I have had at 5 for awhile, but I can't see that damage increasing by about more than 5-15 points once I bring the rest of the newer skills up to 5. Considering the RoF of cruise and torp launchers, and the HP increase drones would have, I don't think you'd have much to worry about from missiles a Scorpion or Raven use.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:48:00 - [45] Originally by: Rodj Blake A thought... Seeing as how the mk2 Arbitrator is supposed to be an EW cruiser, wouldn't it make more sense to give it a bonus to EW drone effectiveness rather than drone damage? No! Don't do that! There'll be more damn CVA EW arbie raids.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Rodj Blake A thought... Seeing as how the mk2 Arbitrator is supposed to be an EW cruiser, wouldn't it make more sense to give it a bonus to EW drone effectiveness rather than drone damage? No! Don't do that! There'll be more damn CVA EW arbie raids.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:53:00 - [47] Originally by: epic113 2005.11.02 22:41:45 combat Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Ogre I [XXFIG], doing 196.8 damage. from a quick test on sisi the drone was not/webed or target painted and was in a normal attacking orbit. should also point out i have torps 4 and most of the new missile skills at 3 my point is how long do you think a decent raven pilot will take to target and kill your 5 drones? Hm. Wierd. My missile hits were against medium drones but I didn't think there would be THAT much of a damage difference against a heavy drone. However, having said that, I have also gotten hits on frigates for 400 with cruise missiles and nothing special being used then suddenly have it drop to like 50 once it is in a tight orbit around me. And I would probably be focusing my torps on the drone carrier anyway if it is a Dominix. The damage would be way, way more.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:53:00 - [48] Originally by: epic113 2005.11.02 22:41:45 combat Your Inferno Torpedo I hits Ogre I [XXFIG], doing 196.8 damage. from a quick test on sisi the drone was not/webed or target painted and was in a normal attacking orbit. should also point out i have torps 4 and most of the new missile skills at 3 my point is how long do you think a decent raven pilot will take to target and kill your 5 drones? Hm. Wierd. My missile hits were against medium drones but I didn't think there would be THAT much of a damage difference against a heavy drone. However, having said that, I have also gotten hits on frigates for 400 with cruise missiles and nothing special being used then suddenly have it drop to like 50 once it is in a tight orbit around me. And I would probably be focusing my torps on the drone carrier anyway if it is a Dominix. The damage would be way, way more.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 19:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Tiny Carlos If your ship was getting it's drone DoT cut in half (or worse) you'd wail like a stuck pig, why should the noobies feel any different. Last time I did the math for non-drone ships, it was a reduction of 5-10 points overall using fairly common skill levels that most people train to. Where do you get half or worse? Can you show the calculations that brought you to that conclusion? I am kind of wondering if what you are driving to is if that drone training should NOT be a specialty then for drone carriers? That ALL ships should be equal in drone use? That wouldn't put the Dominix very much on par with something like a Typhoon or Armageddon (which I myself could control 10 heavy drones with right now) in sheer firepower. At max skills for a dominix, 5 extra drones isn't going to be as much firepower as the other two ships that may not have max skills when you factor in the other capabilities of those ships. And you don't need drones 5 for decent drone use. You just need it to get heavy drones and drone interfacing. And hopefully heavy drones won't be the be-all-end-all of drones after a change like this. Very rarely do I not use heavy drones. I only use them because I can, not because they fill a specific role other than just pure damage. They can hit everything.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 19:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Tiny Carlos If your ship was getting it's drone DoT cut in half (or worse) you'd wail like a stuck pig, why should the noobies feel any different. Last time I did the math for non-drone ships, it was a reduction of 5-10 points overall using fairly common skill levels that most people train to. Where do you get half or worse? Can you show the calculations that brought you to that conclusion? I am kind of wondering if what you are driving to is if that drone training should NOT be a specialty then for drone carriers? That ALL ships should be equal in drone use? That wouldn't put the Dominix very much on par with something like a Typhoon or Armageddon (which I myself could control 10 heavy drones with right now) in sheer firepower. At max skills for a dominix, 5 extra drones isn't going to be as much firepower as the other two ships that may not have max skills when you factor in the other capabilities of those ships. And you don't need drones 5 for decent drone use. You just need it to get heavy drones and drone interfacing. And hopefully heavy drones won't be the be-all-end-all of drones after a change like this. Very rarely do I not use heavy drones. I only use them because I can, not because they fill a specific role other than just pure damage. They can hit everything.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:51:00 - [51] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild I still think EW and Webber drones are way too unbalancing, especially as counter-frigate tools. Its bad enough that Heavy Nosferatu's are the 'I win' button against smaller ships, now we'll have webbers CHASING us and jammers beating frigate/cruiser sensor strenght all the time. So much for frigate specialization eh? Um, you expect to solo a battleship with a frigate? Not going to happen. Ever try 10 frigates against a battleship though? Lotsa fun. Especially when you go after those types of people who expect a battleship to be the equivalent of a maxed out level character on another type of MMORPG. They are like freaking out when they die.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.03 20:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild I still think EW and Webber drones are way too unbalancing, especially as counter-frigate tools. Its bad enough that Heavy Nosferatu's are the 'I win' button against smaller ships, now we'll have webbers CHASING us and jammers beating frigate/cruiser sensor strenght all the time. So much for frigate specialization eh? Um, you expect to solo a battleship with a frigate? Not going to happen. Ever try 10 frigates against a battleship though? Lotsa fun. Especially when you go after those types of people who expect a battleship to be the equivalent of a maxed out level character on another type of MMORPG. They are like freaking out when they die.
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.04 17:05:00 - [53] I'm looking for someone to poke some holes in my thoughts I had concerning reducing the amount of drones for non-carrier related ships and the worry when facing frigate sized. What the hell is a frigate going to do to a battleship anyway? You can repair or shield boost faster than it would do damage. A whole group of frigates would represent a problem but then they are supposed to that anyway. I remember what we did to poor Redwolf's Raven once when we swarmed it with frigates and didn't lose one. This would be where your light and/or medium drones would come in. A real frigate pilot would be smart enough to know how to avoid the heavy drones and keep ahead of them so they can't catch up while also avoiding being webbed by one of those ships with 1500 drone bay. Which is where the web drone might come in handy. Also, if you are worried about taking out tacklers now, how often does it happen before you die? Taking out a single tackler likely still wouldn't be difficult under the new system especially if you are still doing other things to it like using a heavy nos so it has no defenses against your drones. Taking out multiple tacklers becomes a problem but then I can't see how the old system defends any better against that. Plus, a good interceptor pilot can easily dodge you if he uses good divebombing and times the scambling right. An old enemy named Jon Gray was very good at this. If you want to not worry about tacklers so you can get away from fights you can't possibly win, fit WCS and then it won't matter. That is what they are for. Also, reducing the amount of drones saves frigates pilots in some manner too from a thought I had. Now imagine they keep web drones in and didn't reduce the space and amount controlled. For max skilled dominix pilots, take your 15 drones and split them into 3 groups of 5 (1 web, 4 damage). Send each group at 3 different frigates to start killing them 3 at a time very quickly. Maybe throw in an EW drone as they will be quite effective against frigate's weak sensor strength (which would also break the lock and stop the scrambling too). Or, for those ships with 1500 drone bay, you could do 2 at a time (1 web, 2 damage which should be enough). Or maybe a mix of medium for a larger amount to do 3 at a time. That'd be harsh for a wing of frigate pilots.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2005.11.04 17:05:00 - [54] I'm looking for someone to poke some holes in my thoughts I had concerning reducing the amount of drones for non-carrier related ships and the worry when facing frigate sized. What the hell is a frigate going to do to a battleship anyway? You can repair or shield boost faster than it would do damage. A whole group of frigates would represent a problem but then they are supposed to that anyway. I remember what we did to poor Redwolf's Raven once when we swarmed it with frigates and didn't lose one. This would be where your light and/or medium drones would come in. A real frigate pilot would be smart enough to know how to avoid the heavy drones and keep ahead of them so they can't catch up while also avoiding being webbed by one of those ships with 1500 drone bay. Which is where the web drone might come in handy. Also, if you are worried about taking out tacklers now, how often does it happen before you die? Taking out a single tackler likely still wouldn't be difficult under the new system especially if you are still doing other things to it like using a heavy nos so it has no defenses against your drones. Taking out multiple tacklers becomes a problem but then I can't see how the old system defends any better against that. Plus, a good interceptor pilot can easily dodge you if he uses good divebombing and times the scambling right. An old enemy named Jon Gray was very good at this. If you want to not worry about tacklers so you can get away from fights you can't possibly win, fit WCS and then it won't matter. That is what they are for. Also, reducing the amount of drones saves frigates pilots in some manner too from a thought I had. Now imagine they keep web drones in and didn't reduce the space and amount controlled. For max skilled dominix pilots, take your 15 drones and split them into 3 groups of 5 (1 web, 4 damage). Send each group at 3 different frigates to start killing them 3 at a time very quickly. Maybe throw in an EW drone as they will be quite effective against frigate's weak sensor strength (which would also break the lock and stop the scrambling too). Or, for those ships with 1500 drone bay, you could do 2 at a time (1 web, 2 damage which should be enough). Or maybe a mix of medium for a larger amount to do 3 at a time. That'd be harsh for a wing of frigate pilots.

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