EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not

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Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:18:00 - [1] Oh my god. Gankgeddon gets EW ¼_¼ This is going to change everything... not sure if that's good or bad yet.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 14:22:49 Oh my god. Gankgeddon gets EW ¼_¼ This is going to change everything... not sure if that's good or bad yet. Edit: could you elaborate a bit more on sentry drones? Are they large? Edit #2: reading related blog before posting might help, oops --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 14:44:11 This could be insane... so a domi under this new system could carry 15 large drones yeah? So theoretically, it could wander around with say, nos, tank and a bunch of caldari racials in its midslots, 5 tracking disrupting drones (or 4 and a webifying drone depending on how the new stacking penalty comes in to play), 5 damage dealing drones, 5 damping drones. If it ran into a caldari bs it'd be fine because of ECM, if it ran into a turret bs it could suck away with its nos while the tracking disruptor drones reduced the target's dps hugely, and once the target's out of cap could switch to damage drones to get the techincality of blowing the ship up out of the way, if it ran into an inty gang it could damp half of them while nossing the rest. It'll add a whole new level of complexity to combat, seems very interesting. I can't see how it won't make drone boats completely overpowered though ¼_¼.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 14:43:00 - [4] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 14:44:11 This could be insane... so a domi under this new system could carry 15 large drones yeah? So theoretically, it could wander around with say, nos, tank and a bunch of caldari racials in its midslots, 5 tracking disrupting drones (or 4 and a webifying drone depending on how the new stacking penalty comes in to play), 5 damage dealing drones, 5 damping drones. If it ran into a caldari bs it'd be fine because of ECM, if it ran into a turret bs it could suck away with its nos while the tracking disruptor drones reduced the target's dps hugely, and once the target's out of cap could switch to damage drones to get the techincality of blowing the ship up out of the way, if it ran into an inty gang it could damp half of them while nossing the rest. It'll add a whole new level of complexity to combat, seems very interesting. I can't see how it won't make drone boats completely overpowered though ¼_¼. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Tuxford You can start by reading the blog. I did, after my first post but before my second ;p Originally by: Blog You are now limited to 5 drones per ship so all the ships can't really be using all kinds of EWAR. I assume this means 5 drones in space rather than 5 drones in the drone bay at all yeah? Otherwise the 750/2 = 375 m^3 new dronebay would be pretty empty. So, you can keep 15 different heavy drones in a dominix and pick and mix 5 of them as you want them, yeah? Or are you actually cutting the dominix's dronebay down to 125 m^3? Originally by: Tuxford As it is now 5 heavy ewar drones are not even as effective a single EWAR drone module, I fail to see how that will make drone ships totally overpowered. Also drones have the tendancy to die and when they do they're not very useful at all. Originally by: Blog One drone won't be as effective as a single module and you would need several modules to actually get the same results as a single module does. Well, in the blog you just say that one drone won't be as effective as one module, not that 5 won't be as effective. Without knowing what the stacking penalty is like it's hard to judge how many drones are equivalent to one module. Take large tracking disruptor drones: according to the combat revisited blog by Oveur where he mentions the new stacking penalty, he says "the Stacking now gives less penalty for the first 2 modules on top of the first, the third is almost the same". So, if this is right and for four modules you get about the same effect under the current stacking penalty as you will under the new one: With the current stacking penalty, four tracking disrupting things that do multiply tracking/optimal by 0.75 would have a net effect of ((0.75^4)^(4^-0.25)) = 0.443 which is pretty much equivalent to one tracking disruptor II with good turret destabilization. Which will really hurt a turret bs, esp if the domi example I was using employs an afterburner as well. So, I don't think my initial scenario was that unrealistic - again, assuming that you're allowed to hold spare drones and can't just carry 5 drones full stop.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Tuxford You can start by reading the blog. I did, after my first post but before my second ;p Originally by: Blog You are now limited to 5 drones per ship so all the ships can't really be using all kinds of EWAR. I assume this means 5 drones in space rather than 5 drones in the drone bay at all yeah? Otherwise the 750/2 = 375 m^3 new dronebay would be pretty empty. So, you can keep 15 different heavy drones in a dominix and pick and mix 5 of them as you want them, yeah? Or are you actually cutting the dominix's dronebay down to 125 m^3? Originally by: Tuxford As it is now 5 heavy ewar drones are not even as effective a single EWAR drone module, I fail to see how that will make drone ships totally overpowered. Also drones have the tendancy to die and when they do they're not very useful at all. Originally by: Blog One drone won't be as effective as a single module and you would need several modules to actually get the same results as a single module does. Well, in the blog you just say that one drone won't be as effective as one module, not that 5 won't be as effective. Without knowing what the stacking penalty is like it's hard to judge how many drones are equivalent to one module. Take large tracking disruptor drones: according to the combat revisited blog by Oveur where he mentions the new stacking penalty, he says "the Stacking now gives less penalty for the first 2 modules on top of the first, the third is almost the same". So, if this is right and for four modules you get about the same effect under the current stacking penalty as you will under the new one: With the current stacking penalty, four tracking disrupting things that do multiply tracking/optimal by 0.75 would have a net effect of ((0.75^4)^(4^-0.25)) = 0.443 which is pretty much equivalent to one tracking disruptor II with good turret destabilization. Which will really hurt a turret bs, esp if the domi example I was using employs an afterburner as well. So, I don't think my initial scenario was that unrealistic - again, assuming that you're allowed to hold spare drones and can't just carry 5 drones full stop. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Demon Johnson Edited by: Demon Johnson on 31/10/2005 14:50:26 They said all drone bays will be reduced. So a Domi might be able to hold 7 drones or so max. EDIT: Ah, found it in the blog: "# Drone bays reduced to half of what they are today" Dominix can hold 30 heavy drones right now. So, I used that bit of information from the blog to come to the conclusion that it'll be able to hold 15 after the changes, but only be able to use 5 at a time.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Demon Johnson Edited by: Demon Johnson on 31/10/2005 14:50:26 They said all drone bays will be reduced. So a Domi might be able to hold 7 drones or so max. EDIT: Ah, found it in the blog: "# Drone bays reduced to half of what they are today" Dominix can hold 30 heavy drones right now. So, I used that bit of information from the blog to come to the conclusion that it'll be able to hold 15 after the changes, but only be able to use 5 at a time. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:36:00 - [9] Could you confirm that I understand this correctly? A dominix will have a 375 m^3 dronebay after the changes and be able to hold 15 heavy drones (or 10 heavy drones, 10 medium drones, 5 lights, or... etc.) while only being able to actually have 5 in space at any one time. Is that correct?
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 15:36:00 - [10] Could you confirm that I understand this correctly? A dominix will have a 375 m^3 dronebay after the changes and be able to hold 15 heavy drones (or 10 heavy drones, 10 medium drones, 5 lights, or... etc.) while only being able to actually have 5 in space at any one time. Is that correct? --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 16:35:00 - [11] Originally by: NTRabbit A small note - the Caldari missile ships with Kinetic bonuses are the only caldari ships with damage bonuses at all, and missiles are the only way for most caldari ships to do any damage other than Kinetic and Thermal at all. I dont like the racial bonuses too much either, but like I said - if one has to wear it (like the Caldari have for months) then all have to. The examples he used, Raven and Hawk, both get RoF bonuses though, which are damage over time bonuses as well. How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right?
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 16:35:00 - [12] Originally by: NTRabbit A small note - the Caldari missile ships with Kinetic bonuses are the only caldari ships with damage bonuses at all, and missiles are the only way for most caldari ships to do any damage other than Kinetic and Thermal at all. I dont like the racial bonuses too much either, but like I said - if one has to wear it (like the Caldari have for months) then all have to. The examples he used, Raven and Hawk, both get RoF bonuses though, which are damage over time bonuses as well. How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right? --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 16:58:00 - [13] Originally by: j0sephine "How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right? " Aye; although damage bonus would be likely more practical -- with drones' high RoF would probably run into the same server trouble which forced the change of frigate RoF boosts into damage increases... o.O Hehe, I was just being facetious pointing out NTRabbit's fallacy that no Caldari ships get damage bonuses, not a serious proposal. The ships with drone bays big enough to hold more than just 5 drones (Dominix, 375 m^3, Typhoon, 175 m^3) will be sweet in terms of flexibility (the issue of the Domi's thermal damage bonus aside) - need damage? Use regular combat drones. Want to cut down the target's firepower a little? Pull the shooty drones in and lob out some tracking disruptor drones. Ok, pure nos setups will perhaps be a little less effective and more mixed nos/damage setups might be more effective, but still, it's not the end of the world for the Domi. It's interesting, it brings up all sorts of new twists - Pulsegeddon w/ 3 webifier drones and 2 target painting drones vs Blasterthron w/ 4 tracking disruptor drones and a webifying drone. I just hope it won't make 1 v 1 more of a lottery of having the right drones for the job. Overall I reckon this all sounds very interesting
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 16:58:00 - [14] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 16:59:58 Originally by: j0sephine "How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right? " Aye; although damage bonus would be likely more practical -- with drones' high RoF would probably run into the same server trouble which forced the change of frigate RoF boosts into damage increases... o.O Hehe, I was just being facetious pointing out NTRabbit's fallacy that no Caldari ships get damage bonuses, was not a serious proposal. The ships with dronebays big enough to hold more than just 5 drones (Dominix, 375 m^3, Typhoon, 175 m^3) will be sweet in terms of flexibility (the issue of the Domi's thermal damage bonus aside) - need damage? Use regular combat drones. Want to cut down the target's firepower a little? Pull the shooty drones in and lob out some tracking disruptor drones. Ok, pure nos setups will perhaps be a little less effective and more mixed nos/damage setups might be more effective, but still, it's not the end of the world for the Domi. It's interesting, it brings up all sorts of new twists - Pulsegeddon w/ 3 webifier drones and 2 target painting drones vs Blasterthron w/ 4 tracking disruptor drones and a webifying drone, who will win? I just hope it won't make 1 v 1 more of a lottery of having the right drones for the job. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 17:04:05 Question: will the cap draining drones transfer the cap they remove from the target to the parent ship or not? I guess as they're listed as energy neutralising drones in the blog they won't.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 17:04:05 Question: will the cap draining drones transfer the cap they remove from the target to the parent ship or not? I guess as they're listed as energy neutralising drones in the blog they won't. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:08:00 - [17] Originally by: NTRabbit Originally by: Farjung Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 16:59:58 Originally by: j0sephine "How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right? " Aye; although damage bonus would be likely more practical -- with drones' high RoF would probably run into the same server trouble which forced the change of frigate RoF boosts into damage increases... o.O Hehe, I was just being facetious pointing out NTRabbit's fallacy that no Caldari ships get damage bonuses, was not a serious proposal. Its not a fallacy - none of those Caldari ships get a bonus titled "damage bonus", as opposed to many of the Gallente ships which get a "damage bonus" usually in the order of 5%. Ok, semantically, no, it's not called "damage bonus", but a rate of fire bonus allows you to do more damage over time. And a 5% rate of fire bonus is better than a 5% damage bonus when it comes to damage over time, especially if you're using weapons that use no cap (33% more damage over time compared to 25%).
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 17:08:00 - [18] Originally by: NTRabbit Originally by: Farjung Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 16:59:58 Originally by: j0sephine "How about dominix getting drone RoF bonus - that'd be fair, right? " Aye; although damage bonus would be likely more practical -- with drones' high RoF would probably run into the same server trouble which forced the change of frigate RoF boosts into damage increases... o.O Hehe, I was just being facetious pointing out NTRabbit's fallacy that no Caldari ships get damage bonuses, was not a serious proposal. Its not a fallacy - none of those Caldari ships get a bonus titled "damage bonus", as opposed to many of the Gallente ships which get a "damage bonus" usually in the order of 5%. Ok, semantically, no, it's not called "damage bonus", but a rate of fire bonus allows you to do more damage over time. And a 5% rate of fire bonus is better than a 5% damage bonus when it comes to damage over time, especially if you're using weapons that use no cap (33% more damage over time compared to 25%). --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:40:00 - [19] Just been playing with the values in there for the large jamming drones, can someone tell me if my math is off? Chance for one large ECM drone (strength 1.5) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for one cycle (5 seconds): 1.5/21 = 7.1% Chance for at least one of five large ECM drones (strength 1.5 each) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for one cycle (5 seconds): 1 - ((1 - 1.5/21) ^ 5) = 31.0% Chance for at least one of five large ECM drones to jam a megathron at least once in 20 seconds: 1 - ((1 - 1.5/21) ^ 4) = 77.3% Chance for one t2 multispectral with maxed skill (no ship bonus) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for a 20 second cycle: (4.8 * 1.25) / 21 = 28.6% Chance for at least one of two t2 multis with maxed skill (no ship bonus) to jam a megathron for a 20 second cycle: 1 - ((1 - 6/21) ^ 2)= 49.0% Chance for at least one of three t2 multis to jam a megathron for a 20 second cycle: 100 - ((100 - 28.6) ^ 3) = 63.6% I think the above calculations are correct and relevant, but I might be wrong, so if someone could double check that would be great. Some important points to note are that while a successful drone cycle will jam for just 5 seconds, a successful module jam will last the full 20 seconds. Also, the much longer operational range of the multis. And ofc that you're sacrificing the dps you would have got out of having 5 heavy drones there instead.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Farjung on 31/10/2005 19:51:21 Just been playing with the values in there for the large jamming drones, can someone tell me if my math is off? Chance for one large ECM drone (strength 1.5) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for one cycle (5 seconds): 1.5/21 = 7.1% Chance for at least one of five large ECM drones (strength 1.5 each) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for one cycle (5 seconds): 1 - ((1 - 1.5/21) ^ 5) = 31.0% Chance for at least one of five large ECM drones to jam a megathron at least once in 20 seconds: 1 - ((1 - 0.310) ^ 4) = 77.3% Chance for one t2 multispectral with maxed skill (no ship bonus) to jam a megathron (strength 21) for a 20 second cycle: (4.8 * 1.25) / 21 = 28.6% Chance for at least one of two t2 multis with maxed skill (no ship bonus) to jam a megathron for a 20 second cycle: 1 - ((1 - 6/21) ^ 2)= 49.0% Chance for at least one of three t2 multis to jam a megathron for a 20 second cycle: 1 - ((1 - 6/21) ^ 3) = 63.6% I think the above calculations are correct and relevant, but I might be wrong, so if someone could double check that would be great. Some important points to note are that while a successful drone cycle will jam for just 5 seconds, a successful module jam will last the full 20 seconds. Also, the much longer operational range of the multis. And ofc that you're sacrificing the dps you would have got out of having 5 heavy drones there instead. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.10.31 20:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Diana Merris Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Question; What use is the Dominix if the Megathron with half its drone bay can field 5 heavy drones too? The Domi can carry extra sets of drones that do other things so its more flexible. Who needs extra drones when youve got a blasterthron with 5 floating tracking disruptors? What use is that when the geddon you land 15km away from throws 5 webbing drones at you . Tracking disruptors or not, when you're going at 7% of your normal max speed he's not going to miss ;p. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 04:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Suicide Keen Originally by: Tuxford EWAR drones They all come in 3 sizes, small, medium and large. The small one being 5m^3, medium 10m^3 and large 25m^3. Jamming drones duration \| falloff \| range \| strength ----------------------------------------- large \| 5 \| 10 000 \| 10 000 \| 1.5 \| medium \| 5 \| 7 500 \| 7 500 \| 0.65 \| small \| 5 \| 5 000 \| 5 000 \| 0.3 \| ----------------------------------------- For those of you complaining about proposed EW drone changes, keep in mind that a full set of large EW drones will only jam at 7.5 strength, or just enough to fully jam one frig, sometimes a cruiser, and very seldom a battleship. Think before you speak. I'm not complaining, but I am trying to do the maths to see what this actually means. The main difference is that ECM drones have a cycle time of 5 seconds compared to ECM modules that have a cycle time of 20 seconds. So in one cycle of a multispectral jammer, your single ECM drone will have had 4 jam attempts. This is a double-edged sword - it means that you have more attempts at a jam, but each successful jam only lasts 5 seconds. Here are some numbers churned out - I'm not trying to press any particular agenda just yet, just want to share the relevant numbers and see what people think a) of my calculations b) of the results if the calculations are correct. Average interceptor has average sensor strength of ~10. The large drones might struggle to get within 10km of a long range ceptor given the speed differences, so take this with a grain of salt - just a pure chance to jam calc. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle is 1.5/10 = 15%. Doesn't look like much. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (8.5/10)^4 = 47.8% Chance of one t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 6/10 = 60% Chance of two large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle: 1 - (8.5/10)^2 = 27.75% Chance of two large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (1 - 0.2775)^4 = 72.8% Chance of at least one of two t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 1 - (1 - 0.6)^2 = 84% Chance of five large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle: 1 - (8.5/10)^5 = 55.6% Chance of five large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (1 - 0.556)^4 = 96.1% Chance of at least one of five t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 1 - (1 - 0.6)^5 = 99.0% Average cruiser has average sensor strength of ~15. p(1 drone jamming cruiser per 5s): 1.5/15 = 10% p(1 drone jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^4 = 34.4% p(1 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 6/15 = 40% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming cruiser per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^2 = 19% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.19)^4 = 57.0% p(at least 1 of 2 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.4)^2 = 64% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming cruiser per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^5 = 41.0% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.410)^4 = 87.8% p(at least 1 of 5 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.4)^5 = 92.2%
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 04:42:00 - [23] Average battleship has average sensor strength of ~20. p(1 drone jamming bs per 5s): 1.5/20 = 7.5% p(1 drone jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^4 = 26.8% p(1 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 6/20 = 30% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming bs per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^2 = 14.4% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.144)^4 = 53.6% p(at least 1 of 2 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.3)^2 = 51% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming bs per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^5 = 32.3% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.323)^4 = 79.0% p(at least 1 of 5 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.3)^5 = 83.2%
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 04:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Suicide Keen Originally by: Tuxford EWAR drones They all come in 3 sizes, small, medium and large. The small one being 5m^3, medium 10m^3 and large 25m^3. Jamming drones duration \| falloff \| range \| strength ----------------------------------------- large \| 5 \| 10 000 \| 10 000 \| 1.5 \| medium \| 5 \| 7 500 \| 7 500 \| 0.65 \| small \| 5 \| 5 000 \| 5 000 \| 0.3 \| ----------------------------------------- For those of you complaining about proposed EW drone changes, keep in mind that a full set of large EW drones will only jam at 7.5 strength, or just enough to fully jam one frig, sometimes a cruiser, and very seldom a battleship. Think before you speak. I'm not complaining, but I am trying to do the maths to see what this actually means. The main difference is that ECM drones have a cycle time of 5 seconds compared to ECM modules that have a cycle time of 20 seconds. So in one cycle of a multispectral jammer, your single ECM drone will have had 4 jam attempts. This is a double-edged sword - it means that you have more attempts at a jam, but each successful jam only lasts 5 seconds. Here are some numbers churned out - I'm not trying to press any particular agenda just yet, just want to share the relevant numbers and see what people think a) of my calculations b) of the results if the calculations are correct. Average interceptor has average sensor strength of ~10. The large drones might struggle to get within 10km of a long range ceptor given the speed differences, so take this with a grain of salt - just a pure chance to jam calc. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle is 1.5/10 = 15%. Doesn't look like much. Chance of one large ECM drone jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (8.5/10)^4 = 47.8% Chance of one t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 6/10 = 60% Chance of two large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle: 1 - (8.5/10)^2 = 27.75% Chance of two large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (1 - 0.2775)^4 = 72.8% Chance of at least one of two t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 1 - (1 - 0.6)^2 = 84% Chance of five large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor per 5 second cycle: 1 - (8.5/10)^5 = 55.6% Chance of five large ECM drones jamming this average ceptor at least once per 20 seconds: 1 - (1 - 0.556)^4 = 96.1% Chance of at least one of five t2 multispectral w/ signal dispersion 5 jamming this average ceptor per 20 second cycle: 1 - (1 - 0.6)^5 = 99.0% Average cruiser has average sensor strength of ~15. p(1 drone jamming cruiser per 5s): 1.5/15 = 10% p(1 drone jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^4 = 34.4% p(1 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 6/15 = 40% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming cruiser per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^2 = 19% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.19)^4 = 57.0% p(at least 1 of 2 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.4)^2 = 64% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming cruiser per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.1)^5 = 41.0% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.410)^4 = 87.8% p(at least 1 of 5 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.4)^5 = 92.2% --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 04:42:00 - [25] Average battleship has average sensor strength of ~20. p(1 drone jamming bs per 5s): 1.5/20 = 7.5% p(1 drone jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^4 = 26.8% p(1 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 6/20 = 30% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming bs per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^2 = 14.4% p(at least 1 of 2 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.144)^4 = 53.6% p(at least 1 of 2 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.3)^2 = 51% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming bs per 5s): 1 - (1 - 0.075)^5 = 32.3% p(at least 1 of 5 drones jamming at least once per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.323)^4 = 79.0% p(at least 1 of 5 t2 multispec jamming per 20s): 1 - (1 - 0.3)^5 = 83.2% --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 05:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Bjartmar Farjung and his math.. looks right. Though how it applies in real terms during combat. Nothing like the test server :p There's another server apart from singularity? I never realised!
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 05:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Bjartmar Farjung and his math.. looks right. Though how it applies in real terms during combat. Nothing like the test server :p There's another server apart from singularity? I never realised! --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 08:47:00 - [28] Edited by: Farjung on 01/11/2005 08:47:49 Originally by: Gierling Farjung, assuming one average BS (IE with one sensor booster), can you run the math on how many dampeners you need to ensure they will never lock you before 5 drones jam them once. I'm thinking thats the wicked combo right there. lol, getting to be a bit of a complicated model here. I'm sitting on sisi messing around with damps right now to try to get some answers to the following question: What is the precise formula that links lock time with signature radius and scan resolution? Obviously higher sig radius and scan res both equal faster lock, but the exact formula would be nice if anyone knows it. From testing it appears that lock time is inversely proportional to scan resolution - if scan resolution goes up 60% thanks to a sensor booster, lock time goes down roughly 40% as well (1/1.6 = 0.625). However, it's not so simple for sig radius - when testing on sisi it took about 25.5 seconds for my scorp to lock my ranis with its mwd off, but when I turned the mwd on and boosted the sig radius 500% the lock time only came down by about 14 seconds. But anyway. It varies from race to race quite significantly - my alt takes over 10 seconds to lock my domi in her high scan-res scorp, whereas it takes me less me about 7.3 to lock her high sig res scorp with my comparatively high scan res domi. Using the domi as the "average" battleship, with one sensor booster II it takes about 5 seconds to lock another domi. With one tech II damp with low skills applied to the domi, that increases to 10 seconds roughly. With two, just over 20 (welcome to the overpowered nature of unpenalised damp stacking :\|). So, with two tech II damps and signal suppression 1 you put his lock time at just over 20 seconds. Because of the probabilistic nature of EW now, you're never going to be able to ensure that he can't lock you at all, but with 5 heavy EW drones, and two well trained tech II damps the probability of him being able to lock you for more than 5 seconds is getting pretty small. I'm not going to run around screaming that the sky is falling just yet until I can actually test these out for real though.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 08:47:00 - [29] Edited by: Farjung on 01/11/2005 08:47:49 Originally by: Gierling Farjung, assuming one average BS (IE with one sensor booster), can you run the math on how many dampeners you need to ensure they will never lock you before 5 drones jam them once. I'm thinking thats the wicked combo right there. lol, getting to be a bit of a complicated model here. I'm sitting on sisi messing around with damps right now to try to get some answers to the following question: What is the precise formula that links lock time with signature radius and scan resolution? Obviously higher sig radius and scan res both equal faster lock, but the exact formula would be nice if anyone knows it. From testing it appears that lock time is inversely proportional to scan resolution - if scan resolution goes up 60% thanks to a sensor booster, lock time goes down roughly 40% as well (1/1.6 = 0.625). However, it's not so simple for sig radius - when testing on sisi it took about 25.5 seconds for my scorp to lock my ranis with its mwd off, but when I turned the mwd on and boosted the sig radius 500% the lock time only came down by about 14 seconds. But anyway. It varies from race to race quite significantly - my alt takes over 10 seconds to lock my domi in her high scan-res scorp, whereas it takes me less me about 7.3 to lock her high sig res scorp with my comparatively high scan res domi. Using the domi as the "average" battleship, with one sensor booster II it takes about 5 seconds to lock another domi. With one tech II damp with low skills applied to the domi, that increases to 10 seconds roughly. With two, just over 20 (welcome to the overpowered nature of unpenalised damp stacking :\|). So, with two tech II damps and signal suppression 1 you put his lock time at just over 20 seconds. Because of the probabilistic nature of EW now, you're never going to be able to ensure that he can't lock you at all, but with 5 heavy EW drones, and two well trained tech II damps the probability of him being able to lock you for more than 5 seconds is getting pretty small. I'm not going to run around screaming that the sky is falling just yet until I can actually test these out for real though. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 12:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Gronsak the EW drones are not that bad as they got a strength of only 1.5, with 5 drones thats 7.5, same as one module, imo id perfer 5 heavy drones attacking. Well, firstly EW doesn't really stack in that particular manner, so 5 drones of 1.5 are not equivalent to one module that does 7.5. Secondly, the EW drones have a cycle time of 5 seconds compared to 20 seconds on a module, so you'll get 4 attempts to jam in the same period of time as one module. Refer to my calculations a few pages back for what the effects will be based on the current values.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 12:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Gronsak the EW drones are not that bad as they got a strength of only 1.5, with 5 drones thats 7.5, same as one module, imo id perfer 5 heavy drones attacking. Well, firstly EW doesn't really stack in that particular manner, so 5 drones of 1.5 are not equivalent to one module that does 7.5. Secondly, the EW drones have a cycle time of 5 seconds compared to 20 seconds on a module, so you'll get 4 attempts to jam in the same period of time as one module. Refer to my calculations a few pages back for what the effects will be based on the current values. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 13:09:00 - [32] Originally by: GBBUTT Edited by: GBBUTT on 01/11/2005 13:04:55 Edited by: GBBUTT on 01/11/2005 13:04:20 Originally by: Hakera Originally by: GBBUTT gallante guns are weak when compared to the other race's which i thought was made up by the fact that we are the drone race. lol - hybrids weak, the gall ships grid perhaps but not their guns. Yeah thats what i meant. Amarr can fit 8 mega pulse laser's with their grid/cpu. Mimitar can fit 8 1400 artillery cannon with their grid/cpu. I want to see you try and max out a mega with the equivalent rails not gonna happen. Plus this is basicly the kiss of death to the only way a dom could take on a raven. This has ****ed me off so much i am serriously considering droping my subscriptions. The first time ever for that. Tempest only has 6 turret hardpoints, and it can only fit 6 1400 II without grid mods if the pilot has awu 5. Megathron has 7 turret hardpoints, and it can fit 7 425 II without grid mods while still having grid left over for a large armor repairer II.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 13:09:00 - [33] Originally by: GBBUTT Edited by: GBBUTT on 01/11/2005 13:04:55 Edited by: GBBUTT on 01/11/2005 13:04:20 Originally by: Hakera Originally by: GBBUTT gallante guns are weak when compared to the other race's which i thought was made up by the fact that we are the drone race. lol - hybrids weak, the gall ships grid perhaps but not their guns. Yeah thats what i meant. Amarr can fit 8 mega pulse laser's with their grid/cpu. Mimitar can fit 8 1400 artillery cannon with their grid/cpu. I want to see you try and max out a mega with the equivalent rails not gonna happen. Plus this is basicly the kiss of death to the only way a dom could take on a raven. This has ****ed me off so much i am serriously considering droping my subscriptions. The first time ever for that. Tempest only has 6 turret hardpoints, and it can only fit 6 1400 II without grid mods if the pilot has awu 5. Megathron has 7 turret hardpoints, and it can fit 7 425 II without grid mods while still having grid left over for a large armor repairer II. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Baun I just noticed this, but the large target painting drones are 66% as effective as a t2 target painter (20% vs 30%). This is significantly higher than the large webifying drones that are 50% (40% vs 80%) as effective and the ECM drones that are 31% as effective (1.5 vs 4.8). Remember, ECM drones have cycle of 5 seconds compared to ECM modules which have cycle of 20 seconds. Shorter cycles = more attempted jams, so if ECM drones had a strength of 4.8 they would be a lot better than the ECM modules as they would be getting 4 times as many successful jams over time (as well as 4 times as many failures of course). Each successful jam is for 5 seconds of course, rather than 20, but given the lock time of battleships breaking the lock for just five seconds will mean the battleship will have to relock, meaning another 5+ seconds wasted. So, just because drones have 31% of the strength of the modules, doesn't mean they're 31% as effective imo.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:38:00 - [35] Edited by: Farjung on 01/11/2005 20:40:01 Originally by: Baun I just noticed this, but the large target painting drones are 66% as effective as a t2 target painter (20% vs 30%). This is significantly higher than the large webifying drones that are 50% (40% vs 80%) as effective and the ECM drones that are 31% as effective (1.5 vs 4.8). Remember, ECM drones have cycle of 5 seconds compared to ECM modules which have cycle of 20 seconds. Shorter cycles = more attempted jams, so if ECM drones had a strength of 4.8 they would be a lot better than the ECM modules as they would be getting 4 times as many successful jams over time (as well as 4 times as many failures of course). Each successful jam is for 5 seconds of course, rather than 20, but given the lock time of battleships breaking the lock for just five seconds will mean the battleship will have to relock, meaning another 5+ seconds wasted. So, just because drones have 31% of the strength of the modules, doesn't mean they're 31% as effective imo. Edit: Heh, Maya Rkell pretty much said it. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Ithildin Except that there's no such thing as drone modules. Um, but there will be. What with this thread being called "New drones, modules and what not" ;p Originally by: Blog What about modules? Well they are not many and not that complex. So far there are three of them. One increases the damage output of all combat drones, one increases your drone control range and another boosts the optimal range and tracking on drones.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.01 20:46:00 - [37] Originally by: Ithildin Except that there's no such thing as drone modules. Um, but there will be. What with this thread being called "New drones, modules and what not" ;p Originally by: Blog What about modules? Well they are not many and not that complex. So far there are three of them. One increases the damage output of all combat drones, one increases your drone control range and another boosts the optimal range and tracking on drones. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:16:00 - [38] Originally by: El'jonson Erm nope i didn't. Before changes 30/100125 times 15 drones 562.5 After changes 30/100275 times 5 drones 412.5 125% from standard plus mining drones lvl 5 100% from drone interfacing 50% from Carriers bonus in order for the Dom to mine the same it needs a total of 375% not 275% Your maths is borked. 30 (base mining) * 1.25 (mining drones 5) * 2 (drone interfacing 5) * 1.5 (ship skill) * 5 = 562.5 units/cycle.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:16:00 - [39] Originally by: El'jonson Erm nope i didn't. Before changes 30/100125 times 15 drones 562.5 After changes 30/100275 times 5 drones 412.5 125% from standard plus mining drones lvl 5 100% from drone interfacing 50% from Carriers bonus in order for the Dom to mine the same it needs a total of 375% not 275% Your maths is borked. 30 (base mining) * 1.25 (mining drones 5) * 2 (drone interfacing 5) * 1.5 (ship skill) * 5 = 562.5 units/cycle. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:18:00 - [40] Edited by: Farjung on 02/11/2005 22:19:18 Edited by: Farjung on 02/11/2005 22:18:03 Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: j0sephine (note, with their current stats if 5 new drones = 11.25 old ones, that'll be still 8 cruisers worth of AI-driven hp that can go boom before you are even scratched ... while currently all your 30 drones together are worth as much hp as ~7 cruisers) Umm, I dunno how you got this, but it's wrong. 5 new drones are not going to have more HPs than 30 old ones, they will have LESS than 15 old ones. Don't feel like searching for your error tho :P. If 5 new = 11.25 old, how is 5 new > 30 old? That's clearly wrong. You're misinterpreting what j0's saying, which is that the fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:18:00 - [41] Edited by: Farjung on 02/11/2005 22:19:18 Edited by: Farjung on 02/11/2005 22:18:03 Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: j0sephine (note, with their current stats if 5 new drones = 11.25 old ones, that'll be still 8 cruisers worth of AI-driven hp that can go boom before you are even scratched ... while currently all your 30 drones together are worth as much hp as ~7 cruisers) Umm, I dunno how you got this, but it's wrong. 5 new drones are not going to have more HPs than 30 old ones, they will have LESS than 15 old ones. Don't feel like searching for your error tho :P. If 5 new = 11.25 old, how is 5 new > 30 old? That's clearly wrong. You're misinterpreting what j0's saying, which is that the fifteen drones that will fit in the domi's bay post-patch will have more hp than the thirty drones that fit in it right now. ie, if the enemy's intent on popping all your drones before setting to work on you, it'll have more hp to chew through. As for the task of pushing out new drones as previous ones get destroyed - well that just comes down to how good you are at micro-management in the heat of battle, and tbh it's not that hard to get a hang of if you're concentrating on it. You don't have to wait for all the drones of the previous wave to be popped before sending new ones out, just keep launching a new one as soon as one gets destroyed. --- Wave of Mutilation 2
Farjung	Posted - 2005.11.03 06:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: j0sephine Hmm.. what distances are you fighting with these drones at? ^^;; Around 30km. Dominix is too slow to dictate engagement range, at least on defencive ops. Ah, well I understand your complaint better now. Personally I would never launch drones at that range even now, I consider drones to be a short range weapon, as in under 20km (which compliments nos range and dual 250mm w/ antimatter range as it happens).
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.11.03 06:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Kaell Meynn Originally by: j0sephine Hmm.. what distances are you fighting with these drones at? ^^;; Around 30km. Dominix is too slow to dictate engagement range, at least on defencive ops. Ah, well I understand your complaint better now. Personally I would never launch drones at that range even now, I consider drones to be a short range weapon, as in under 20km (which compliments nos range and dual 250mm w/ antimatter range as it happens). --- Wave of Mutilation 2

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