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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
 Trelennen    |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:12:00 -
[1] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:15:19 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:12:48
Hum, well, with drones and missiles, you can target the specific vulnerability of your opponent, while still doing the same base damage (because they deal only one type of damage). On a minmatar ship, can I target the specific weakness? No. If the opponent is weak to EM, then I'll only have part of my ammo damage toward this vulnerability (less than half), not all like with missile and drones. Same for thermal. And if the opponent is resistant to thermal and em, all my other ammo which do kin/explo do less damage being long range. While missiles and drones (a bit different for drones as they have slightly different base damage, but it's not much) can be chosen to deal exclusively the damage the ennemy is weak too, without needing to lose damage using longer range. Choose a ship with only one weakness, the one you want. Now take a gallente drone ship, a caldari missile ship, and a matari ship. Which of these three will be able to match better the weakness of the ennemy? Not matari. Which one will loose the most base damage if targeting a specific weakness? Matari. So guys, stop with the "matari can choose damage types with no drawback". What we can do is to deal a bit of everything. We absolutely can't choose to deal a specific damage type to match our opponent's weakness, unlike with drones and missiles. PS: I find quite funny to see all Gallente now crying with these thermal drones damage bonus now, when not long ago they were telling Caldari to STFU when they were asking to get damage bonus to all missile types instead of only kinetic... Really, I can't see why Gallente should have bonus to all drone damage and Caldari be stuck with bonus to kinetic missiles only. It's either both get damage bonus to all, either both get their specific damage bonus, or both get a mix of those (like for Caldari a 2% damage to all missiles except 3% for kinetic instead of 5% kinetic and something in the same flavor for drones, and it's imho the most sensitive solution). edit: and of course other races missile/drone boats would have the same kind of bonii too ;) another edit: well, while i was reading the previous page and writing this post, it seems Nafri already said all this, and prolly better than me :)
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 Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:12:00 -
[2] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:15:19 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:12:48
Hum, well, with drones and missiles, you can target the specific vulnerability of your opponent, while still doing the same base damage (because they deal only one type of damage). On a minmatar ship, can I target the specific weakness? No. If the opponent is weak to EM, then I'll only have part of my ammo damage toward this vulnerability (less than half), not all like with missile and drones. Same for thermal. And if the opponent is resistant to thermal and em, all my other ammo which do kin/explo do less damage being long range. While missiles and drones (a bit different for drones as they have slightly different base damage, but it's not much) can be chosen to deal exclusively the damage the ennemy is weak too, without needing to lose damage using longer range. Choose a ship with only one weakness, the one you want. Now take a gallente drone ship, a caldari missile ship, and a matari ship. Which of these three will be able to match better the weakness of the ennemy? Not matari. Which one will loose the most base damage if targeting a specific weakness? Matari. So guys, stop with the "matari can choose damage types with no drawback". What we can do is to deal a bit of everything. We absolutely can't choose to deal a specific damage type to match our opponent's weakness, unlike with drones and missiles. PS: I find quite funny to see all Gallente now crying with these thermal drones damage bonus now, when not long ago they were telling Caldari to STFU when they were asking to get damage bonus to all missile types instead of only kinetic... Really, I can't see why Gallente should have bonus to all drone damage and Caldari be stuck with bonus to kinetic missiles only. It's either both get damage bonus to all, either both get their specific damage bonus, or both get a mix of those (like for Caldari a 2% damage to all missiles except 3% for kinetic instead of 5% kinetic and something in the same flavor for drones, and it's imho the most sensitive solution). edit: and of course other races missile/drone boats would have the same kind of bonii too ;) another edit: well, while i was reading the previous page and writing this post, it seems Nafri already said all this, and prolly better than me :) |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:49:00 -
[3] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:53:13 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:52:35
Well, your new 5 drones will deal the same damage (if thermal) than your previous 15 drones, and be less vulnerable to smartbombs. And right now you can have 20 heavy drones in your bay and 15 out, which would be 5 spare (eg. only 1/3rd of what you can have out at a time). With these changes, you would have room for 10 drones (drone bay halfed), and then still have 5 spare, but that would be a complete replacement set. And your 5 drones will still do the damage of 10 current ones if not using thermal drones. So yeah, being restricted to thermal drone damage bonus sucks, as it sucks missile boats to be restricted to one type of damage missile bonus. And you can still decide to use your own medslots for EW to keep your damage drones out. As I see them, EW drones will most likely be more useful for non drone boats, as drone boats will get bonus to drone damage instead of their drone control. edit:
Their damage is weighted with their speed and HP. Having non specific damage bonus for drones but not for missiles would then require than those less damaging drones become also less fast and less resistant that those best damaging ones.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.10.31 18:49:00 -
[4] Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:53:13 Edited by: Trelennen on 31/10/2005 18:52:35
Well, your new 5 drones will deal the same damage (if thermal) than your previous 15 drones, and be less vulnerable to smartbombs. And right now you can have 20 heavy drones in your bay and 15 out, which would be 5 spare (eg. only 1/3rd of what you can have out at a time). With these changes, you would have room for 10 drones (drone bay halfed), and then still have 5 spare, but that would be a complete replacement set. And your 5 drones will still do the damage of 10 current ones if not using thermal drones. So yeah, being restricted to thermal drone damage bonus sucks, as it sucks missile boats to be restricted to one type of damage missile bonus. And you can still decide to use your own medslots for EW to keep your damage drones out. As I see them, EW drones will most likely be more useful for non drone boats, as drone boats will get bonus to drone damage instead of their drone control. edit:
Their damage is weighted with their speed and HP. Having non specific damage bonus for drones but not for missiles would then require than those less damaging drones become also less fast and less resistant that those best damaging ones. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:43:00 -
[5]
Err... Domi is a Battleship! If you want to mine, get a mining barge... If you need the survivability of a BS to mine, then you won't use mining drones but Heavy drones to defend yourself. If you don't need it, skill and buy a friggin mining barge, that's what they are for! /me thinks about a mining Moros 
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:43:00 -
[6]
Err... Domi is a Battleship! If you want to mine, get a mining barge... If you need the survivability of a BS to mine, then you won't use mining drones but Heavy drones to defend yourself. If you don't need it, skill and buy a friggin mining barge, that's what they are for! /me thinks about a mining Moros |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:46:00 -
[7]
MK2 and drone changes are not related, which means if both go live, MK2 Thorax with drone changes will have 50m3 of drone bay, not 100, then it'll be able to use 2 heavy drones as effectively as 4 current heavy drones, not 4 equivalent to the current 8.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.01 22:46:00 -
[8]
MK2 and drone changes are not related, which means if both go live, MK2 Thorax with drone changes will have 50m3 of drone bay, not 100, then it'll be able to use 2 heavy drones as effectively as 4 current heavy drones, not 4 equivalent to the current 8. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.03 02:29:00 -
[9]
So, average raven pilot has Drones 5, Drone Interfacing 1 (no need for more). Now, instead of 6 drones, they have 3 which do the damage of 3.6... great. Same thing for every pilot of ships which usualy can't have 10 heavy drones btw... You will have new skills. Yes, others will have them too, but hey, you're a specialist, and thus will more train these new skills more likely than the turret/missile specialists, don't you think? And Tux has mentioned new skills to improve range/speed/damage/armor of the drones, that looks like a big boost potential for the drone specialists, as non drone specialist will probably not bother to train them much high, as they'll have more use to train turret/missile skills...
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.03 02:29:00 -
[10]
So, average raven pilot has Drones 5, Drone Interfacing 1 (no need for more). Now, instead of 6 drones, they have 3 which do the damage of 3.6... great. Same thing for every pilot of ships which usualy can't have 10 heavy drones btw... You will have new skills. Yes, others will have them too, but hey, you're a specialist, and thus will more train these new skills more likely than the turret/missile specialists, don't you think? And Tux has mentioned new skills to improve range/speed/damage/armor of the drones, that looks like a big boost potential for the drone specialists, as non drone specialist will probably not bother to train them much high, as they'll have more use to train turret/missile skills... |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.05 01:20:00 -
[11] Edited by: Trelennen on 05/11/2005 01:25:45
You want to have your 5 new drones do the same as your current 5 drones? I guess not, so why would you want to get rid of your drone interfacing skill? It'll be the best skill after patch ya know: just show me any other skill which gives 20% damage bonus / level... (and it's only rank 5). Damn, Gallente crying that drone change is a nerf is getting old... It's *NOT* a nerf guys... And those who will suffer from it are not drone specialists, but those who don't have max drone skills, 'cause they will lose damage, drone specialists won't. In fact, the Ishkur is even quite boosted with the change, as he'll be able to use 4 new med drones, equivalent to 8 old med drones, where he could use only 5 med drones before patch... 3 free med drones damage, woot, prolly the new best AF in game, and you won't even need gistii stuff to be the best AF... As for 6. -> it'll be easier to kill 5 new drones than 15 old drones by targeting them and firing at them with missiles, turrets, drones. Though, it'll be even harder to kill 5 new drones than 15 old drones with smartbombs... In addition, Dominix now has 1/3 wave of reserve after launching its 15 drones, he will now have 2 complete waves od reserve after launching its 5 new drones. I call this a boost, not a nerf! Man, most Gallente whining here make me think about the few caldari pilots that complain about the new shield res bonus on some of their ship, claiming it's a nerf compared to the shield boost... edit: Reatu, drones and missiles doing only one type of damage is quite an advantage, as it's then easier and more efficient to target the weakest point of the target. Say you have a target with 50% explo res and 75% other res. With your one damage only missiles, you can target the explo hole, and the do 37.5 damage. With 50 explo 25 kinetic missile, you'd end up doing 25 explo + 6.25 = 31.25 damage, which means you would do less damage. Having only one damage type on drones and missiles gives the user some versatility and a great tactical advantage if he chooses the right missile. Your suggestion would only make things easier for people that don't bother to determine the resistances of the opponent, and would harm those who actually choose the missile/drone to match the opponent's defense hole.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.05 01:20:00 -
[12] Edited by: Trelennen on 05/11/2005 01:25:45
You want to have your 5 new drones do the same as your current 5 drones? I guess not, so why would you want to get rid of your drone interfacing skill? It'll be the best skill after patch ya know: just show me any other skill which gives 20% damage bonus / level... (and it's only rank 5). Damn, Gallente crying that drone change is a nerf is getting old... It's *NOT* a nerf guys... And those who will suffer from it are not drone specialists, but those who don't have max drone skills, 'cause they will lose damage, drone specialists won't. In fact, the Ishkur is even quite boosted with the change, as he'll be able to use 4 new med drones, equivalent to 8 old med drones, where he could use only 5 med drones before patch... 3 free med drones damage, woot, prolly the new best AF in game, and you won't even need gistii stuff to be the best AF... As for 6. -> it'll be easier to kill 5 new drones than 15 old drones by targeting them and firing at them with missiles, turrets, drones. Though, it'll be even harder to kill 5 new drones than 15 old drones with smartbombs... In addition, Dominix now has 1/3 wave of reserve after launching its 15 drones, he will now have 2 complete waves od reserve after launching its 5 new drones. I call this a boost, not a nerf! Man, most Gallente whining here make me think about the few caldari pilots that complain about the new shield res bonus on some of their ship, claiming it's a nerf compared to the shield boost... edit: Reatu, drones and missiles doing only one type of damage is quite an advantage, as it's then easier and more efficient to target the weakest point of the target. Say you have a target with 50% explo res and 75% other res. With your one damage only missiles, you can target the explo hole, and the do 37.5 damage. With 50 explo 25 kinetic missile, you'd end up doing 25 explo + 6.25 = 31.25 damage, which means you would do less damage. Having only one damage type on drones and missiles gives the user some versatility and a great tactical advantage if he chooses the right missile. Your suggestion would only make things easier for people that don't bother to determine the resistances of the opponent, and would harm those who actually choose the missile/drone to match the opponent's defense hole. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.08 18:46:00 -
[13]
They called it a nerf, because it was a nerf, as they used to be able to pawn frigs with their big missiles, and now they can't. This nerf was needed, though everybody agrees it went a bit too far. Now the current drone changes are far from a nerf, it's even a pure boost for drone specialist, and a nerf for others, which means a bigger relative boost for specialists. Now there is a need for a nerf of heavy drones, as they are currently the one fit for all sizes like were missiles, being able to pawn frigates too easily, and this will be even worse with changes and new skills, as they'll be faster and would then have no trouble to catch a MWD inty... At least these changes require drone specialists to train more skills to be really good with them, like it has been done for missile users, then they won't be a one fit all sizes with low skills, but they still be a one fit all sizes...
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.08 18:46:00 -
[14]
They called it a nerf, because it was a nerf, as they used to be able to pawn frigs with their big missiles, and now they can't. This nerf was needed, though everybody agrees it went a bit too far. Now the current drone changes are far from a nerf, it's even a pure boost for drone specialist, and a nerf for others, which means a bigger relative boost for specialists. Now there is a need for a nerf of heavy drones, as they are currently the one fit for all sizes like were missiles, being able to pawn frigates too easily, and this will be even worse with changes and new skills, as they'll be faster and would then have no trouble to catch a MWD inty... At least these changes require drone specialists to train more skills to be really good with them, like it has been done for missile users, then they won't be a one fit all sizes with low skills, but they still be a one fit all sizes... |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.14 02:09:00 -
[15] Edited by: Trelennen on 14/11/2005 02:12:33
Well, one possible issue with this. Would you reserve that possible reserve drone bay to BSs? If not, for exemple take the rupture (will take new figures of course): it can fit 3 medium drones. Depending on how much reserve m¦ you'd give it, it could possibly launch 2 med and a heavy. And if we consider we might have new drones which would be larger than heavys (for capital ships), you could get the issue of having the possibility to fit a mix of 5 heavy/capital drones on some BSs (well in this regard they'd be issues with drone ships already though, think I read about capital drones, but can't be sure, maybe it's my imagination). Thus in order to avoid this issue, you'd have to put a m¦ of drones in space limit in addition to the max drones in space. Could become rather complicated. edit: read too fast, the suggestion you made in your last paragraph would deal with this.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.14 02:09:00 -
[16] Edited by: Trelennen on 14/11/2005 02:12:33
Well, one possible issue with this. Would you reserve that possible reserve drone bay to BSs? If not, for exemple take the rupture (will take new figures of course): it can fit 3 medium drones. Depending on how much reserve m¦ you'd give it, it could possibly launch 2 med and a heavy. And if we consider we might have new drones which would be larger than heavys (for capital ships), you could get the issue of having the possibility to fit a mix of 5 heavy/capital drones on some BSs (well in this regard they'd be issues with drone ships already though, think I read about capital drones, but can't be sure, maybe it's my imagination). Thus in order to avoid this issue, you'd have to put a m¦ of drones in space limit in addition to the max drones in space. Could become rather complicated. edit: read too fast, the suggestion you made in your last paragraph would deal with this. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.14 19:56:00 -
[17]
Same player read again!... Drone sizes are not changed. Drone bays are halfed, but with max skills (not counting new skills) they will do twice the damage on regular ships, and three times the damage on drone ships. You won't be able to control more than 5 drones, forget about your 10 drones man, and read again.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.14 19:56:00 -
[18]
Same player read again!... Drone sizes are not changed. Drone bays are halfed, but with max skills (not counting new skills) they will do twice the damage on regular ships, and three times the damage on drone ships. You won't be able to control more than 5 drones, forget about your 10 drones man, and read again. |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.16 12:18:00 -
[19]
It's just Tux didn't add that change in the first post at that time, and those 500 people didn't read Tux post about reverting to all damage bonus, nor the 100 posts from others telling people who continued to ***** about racial damage that it was removed. No need for an additional comment from Tux here, he wrote it at least twice in this thread, no need for him to write it down a third time, right?
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.16 12:18:00 -
[20]
It's just Tux didn't add that change in the first post at that time, and those 500 people didn't read Tux post about reverting to all damage bonus, nor the 100 posts from others telling people who continued to ***** about racial damage that it was removed. No need for an additional comment from Tux here, he wrote it at least twice in this thread, no need for him to write it down a third time, right? |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.17 00:53:00 -
[21]
That's the question, particularly Drone Interfacing. If you don't have DI, your 2 med drones will do less than 3 previously (exactly 2/3rd of the damage). Until you get DI 3 (60% damage bonus, 40% at level 2), your 2 med drones won't do more damage than 3 previously.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.17 00:53:00 -
[22] Edited by: Trelennen on 17/11/2005 01:00:27
That's the question, particularly Drone Interfacing. If you don't have DI, your 2 med drones will do less than 3 previously (exactly 2/3rd of the damage). Until you get DI 3 (60% damage bonus, 40% at level 2), your 2 med drones won't do more damage than 3 previously. edit: these changes are only nerfing non drone specialists (eg. those who don't have DI at at least 3 and the ability to launch as many drones as their DI skill allow them to), and makes DI a skill out of balance with the other (come on, 20% damage per level - and 20% mining yield -, when any other damage skill gives max 5%, and Heavy drone skill, same rank same prerequisite, gives only 5% damage, and only to heavy drones). Somebody has suggested earlier in this thread to give 60% damage boost / mining yield boost to all combat / mining drones, and put DI at 5%/5% per level. This will bring back new DI skill in line with others, will fit with the diminishing returns philosophy of EVE, and won't nerf pilots of ships with small drone bays (those who can't fit 10 heavy drones currently, and thus will most likely not have DI 5). Yes it would be a slight boost to ships that can't fit 5 drones, but it'll be for the better. Currently this new DI skill is completely out of balance with others... (considering -potential - damage increase, old DI was already better than all other damage skill, giving between 7% and 10% damage/mining yield boost per level, wether it was non drone carriers or drone carriers, it was already a bit much but still made sense as it added one drone, not a set % of damage, and having level 5 on a ship that can fit only 6 heavy was no better than level 1, now it's bad...) |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.19 06:01:00 -
[23] Edited by: Trelennen on 19/11/2005 06:01:24
You should read better, these 5 mining drones will still be equivalent to 10 current mining drones, so it's only a 33% loss in drone mining ability (dominix can still fit mining lasers). And Tux said only some ships will have bonus to mining drones, and obviously he doesn't want to keep that great mining ability on the Dominix, which is a Battleship ;)
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.19 06:01:00 -
[24] Edited by: Trelennen on 19/11/2005 06:01:24
You should read better, these 5 mining drones will still be equivalent to 10 current mining drones, so it's only a 33% loss in drone mining ability (dominix can still fit mining lasers). And Tux said only some ships will have bonus to mining drones, and obviously he doesn't want to keep that great mining ability on the Dominix, which is a Battleship ;) |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.23 15:27:00 -
[25] Edited by: Trelennen on 23/11/2005 15:34:25
Err, no it's not the same. It was only a potential damage increase for ships which couldn't fit 10 drones. And it was less on drone carriers (only 10%). Anyway, +1 drone per level made sense with the other skills in game. +20% damage per level don't, where any other skill will give maximum 5% damage per level, and where heavy drone skill, which is of the same rank, will give only 5% per level to only heavy drones. There has been several suggestions for keeping the same damage for skilled pilots while bringing DI back in line with other skills. Leaving it with 20% damage per level is plainly wrong, as it would be the only skill giving a very big advantage to specialists. EVE is all about diminishing returns (the more you train the lower is the advantage you get). Multiplying drones damage and mining yield by 1.6 and setting DI at 5% damage and mining yield (which would already be quite not inline with the 5% to heavy drone damage of heavy drones skill) would give the same damage / mining yield output with the skill at 5, and the skill would have more sense, and would be more in line with the others. Sure, it'd lessen the nerf on non drone specialists, but is this nerf needed? Drone specialists will keep their specialty edge, as, being more focused on drones skills (drones being their main weapon), they'll be more dedicated to learn the new drone skills. If you really want to keep that skills at 20% / level, we should reduce turrets, heavy drones, light+medium drones (as they'll get that new damage skill), missiles base damage, and change all relevant damage skills to 20% per level too (and this would be really bad, as old players would have a greater advantage than now over new players, which doesn't fit with EVE's philosophy). edit: and that +1 drone module is completely nuts. This would allow a ship with 5 drones to get a 20% boost to its main weapon... How about a way for all other ships to gain a 20% boost to their main weapon instead of fitting a secondary weapon? Like (but it won't work for full specialists ships like kestrel) a launcher which increases turrets damage by 20%, and a turret which increases launcher damages by 20%? I'm sure you would be one of the first to say it'd be completely nuts. Well, at least it'd make all those hybrid ships with bonii to only one weapon type useful again: instead of fitting secondary weapons, they'll fit those modules... /me thinks about a typhoon with 4 turrets and 4 20% turrets damage module, it'd have the equivalent of 7.2 (for those modules to work like the +1 drone one, x modules should give x*20% to damage, so in this case 80%) turrets and would use the ammo/cap of only 4. After all, go on, keep that +1 drone module and gives turrets / missiles users an equivalent module!
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.23 15:27:00 -
[26] Edited by: Trelennen on 23/11/2005 15:34:25
Err, no it's not the same. It was only a potential damage increase for ships which couldn't fit 10 drones. And it was less on drone carriers (only 10%). Anyway, +1 drone per level made sense with the other skills in game. +20% damage per level don't, where any other skill will give maximum 5% damage per level, and where heavy drone skill, which is of the same rank, will give only 5% per level to only heavy drones. There has been several suggestions for keeping the same damage for skilled pilots while bringing DI back in line with other skills. Leaving it with 20% damage per level is plainly wrong, as it would be the only skill giving a very big advantage to specialists. EVE is all about diminishing returns (the more you train the lower is the advantage you get). Multiplying drones damage and mining yield by 1.6 and setting DI at 5% damage and mining yield (which would already be quite not inline with the 5% to heavy drone damage of heavy drones skill) would give the same damage / mining yield output with the skill at 5, and the skill would have more sense, and would be more in line with the others. Sure, it'd lessen the nerf on non drone specialists, but is this nerf needed? Drone specialists will keep their specialty edge, as, being more focused on drones skills (drones being their main weapon), they'll be more dedicated to learn the new drone skills. If you really want to keep that skills at 20% / level, we should reduce turrets, heavy drones, light+medium drones (as they'll get that new damage skill), missiles base damage, and change all relevant damage skills to 20% per level too (and this would be really bad, as old players would have a greater advantage than now over new players, which doesn't fit with EVE's philosophy). edit: and that +1 drone module is completely nuts. This would allow a ship with 5 drones to get a 20% boost to its main weapon... How about a way for all other ships to gain a 20% boost to their main weapon instead of fitting a secondary weapon? Like (but it won't work for full specialists ships like kestrel) a launcher which increases turrets damage by 20%, and a turret which increases launcher damages by 20%? I'm sure you would be one of the first to say it'd be completely nuts. Well, at least it'd make all those hybrid ships with bonii to only one weapon type useful again: instead of fitting secondary weapons, they'll fit those modules... /me thinks about a typhoon with 4 turrets and 4 20% turrets damage module, it'd have the equivalent of 7.2 (for those modules to work like the +1 drone one, x modules should give x*20% to damage, so in this case 80%) turrets and would use the ammo/cap of only 4. After all, go on, keep that +1 drone module and gives turrets / missiles users an equivalent module! |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.23 16:19:00 -
[27] Edited by: Trelennen on 23/11/2005 16:19:56 edited for typos
Well, no, the current DI skill doesn't not do exactly that, as I explained above: - on non drone carriers it was a potential 20%/level increase, but if the ship could not fit 10 drones, say 6 like the raven for example, it was less (for the raven it'd result in 4% / level if you have DI 5, 20% only if you have DI 1). - on drone carriers, considering max skills, it is currently a 10% / level bonus (at level 5 you get 15 drones instead of 10 = 50% more). And even if it was already equivalent to a +20% damage / level (which it is not), +1 drone / level makes sense comparing to the other skills (like targeting = +1 target / level, laboratory operations = +1 lab / level, etc.). +20% damage / level doesn't fit at all. And it'd be easy, as suggested several time in this thread, to make some slight changes to bring back that skill in line with the others and the philosophy of EVE: set the bonus to +5% damage/mining yield and increase base damage / mining yield of drones by 60% which would give the same damage for fully skilled pilots (as (1 + 60%) * (1 + 25%) = 1.6*1.25 = 2 = 1 * (1 + 100%)). And considering the fact that lost of drone specialists have whined about these changes because with DI4 and BS4 they had less damage than currently (5 drones equivalent to 12.6, instead of 13 drones), everybody should be happy with this suggested change to bring DI skill in line with others, as the same pilot with BS4 and DI4 would then get 5 drones equivalent to 13.44 (5*1.6*1.4(BS4)*1.2(DI4)). And Raven and other less than 10 drones pilots would be happy too, as instead of getting 3 drones equivalent to 3.6 drones for the Raven with only the minimal skills (DI6) instead of 6, they'd get 3 drones equivalent to 5.04 current drones (3*1.6*1.05(DI 1)). Still less than currently, but much better than previous changes. Basicaly, this suggested change would: - bring back DI skill in line with others - diminish the nerf effect for non fully drone skilled pilots (and imho there's no reason to nerf those non fully drone skilled pilots, specialy considering drone specialists will have new drone skills to play with, while non specialists will certainly keep the training focus on their main weapon system). - slightly boost some pilots (compared to current situation, boost will be greater compared to the current RMR situation, where a bunch of pilots are nerfed), and the only pilots I see boosted (not considering the rounding that goes with halving drone bays, and the boost ishkur gets from its new drone bay) are drone carriers pilots with non maxed skills (13.44 drones instead of 13 for pilots with BS/cruiser skill at 4 and DI 4). Imho, it would all be for the better, and I don't see a single bad effect of these suggested changes to base drone damage / mining yield + DI skill bonus. It'd be cool to have a dev comment on this suggestion that has been made several times in this thread, as they seem to want to stick with their current changes (involving only changing DI from +1 drone to +20% damage / mining yield). Tuxford, what do you think about it?
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.23 16:19:00 -
[28] Edited by: Trelennen on 23/11/2005 16:19:56 edited for typos
Well, no, the current DI skill doesn't not do exactly that, as I explained above: - on non drone carriers it was a potential 20%/level increase, but if the ship could not fit 10 drones, say 6 like the raven for example, it was less (for the raven it'd result in 4% / level if you have DI 5, 20% only if you have DI 1). - on drone carriers, considering max skills, it is currently a 10% / level bonus (at level 5 you get 15 drones instead of 10 = 50% more). And even if it was already equivalent to a +20% damage / level (which it is not), +1 drone / level makes sense comparing to the other skills (like targeting = +1 target / level, laboratory operations = +1 lab / level, etc.). +20% damage / level doesn't fit at all. And it'd be easy, as suggested several time in this thread, to make some slight changes to bring back that skill in line with the others and the philosophy of EVE: set the bonus to +5% damage/mining yield and increase base damage / mining yield of drones by 60% which would give the same damage for fully skilled pilots (as (1 + 60%) * (1 + 25%) = 1.6*1.25 = 2 = 1 * (1 + 100%)). And considering the fact that lost of drone specialists have whined about these changes because with DI4 and BS4 they had less damage than currently (5 drones equivalent to 12.6, instead of 13 drones), everybody should be happy with this suggested change to bring DI skill in line with others, as the same pilot with BS4 and DI4 would then get 5 drones equivalent to 13.44 (5*1.6*1.4(BS4)*1.2(DI4)). And Raven and other less than 10 drones pilots would be happy too, as instead of getting 3 drones equivalent to 3.6 drones for the Raven with only the minimal skills (DI6) instead of 6, they'd get 3 drones equivalent to 5.04 current drones (3*1.6*1.05(DI 1)). Still less than currently, but much better than previous changes. Basicaly, this suggested change would: - bring back DI skill in line with others - diminish the nerf effect for non fully drone skilled pilots (and imho there's no reason to nerf those non fully drone skilled pilots, specialy considering drone specialists will have new drone skills to play with, while non specialists will certainly keep the training focus on their main weapon system). - slightly boost some pilots (compared to current situation, boost will be greater compared to the current RMR situation, where a bunch of pilots are nerfed), and the only pilots I see boosted (not considering the rounding that goes with halving drone bays, and the boost ishkur gets from its new drone bay) are drone carriers pilots with non maxed skills (13.44 drones instead of 13 for pilots with BS/cruiser skill at 4 and DI 4). Imho, it would all be for the better, and I don't see a single bad effect of these suggested changes to base drone damage / mining yield + DI skill bonus. It'd be cool to have a dev comment on this suggestion that has been made several times in this thread, as they seem to want to stick with their current changes (involving only changing DI from +1 drone to +20% damage / mining yield). Tuxford, what do you think about it? |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.24 11:16:00 -
[29]
Remember, there'll be new drone skills, and that's the way it works for turrets: you don't get 20% damage per skill level but 5%, exactly the way I suggested it for drones... If you wanna keep those 20% on this skill, fine, but then I'd ask for turrets and launchers to have base damage decreased and one of their easily accessible damage skills to be increased to 20% / level, for specialists to have a huge advantage over non specialists like it would be with a 20% / level DI for drone specialists. But that, again, is against EVE's philosophy of diminishing returns, and the limited edge high SP players have above low SP players, and the limited advantage you get from a skill at 5 over someone who has it at 4.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.24 11:16:00 -
[30]
Remember, there'll be new drone skills, and that's the way it works for turrets: you don't get 20% damage per skill level but 5%, exactly the way I suggested it for drones... If you wanna keep those 20% on this skill, fine, but then I'd ask for turrets and launchers to have base damage decreased and one of their easily accessible damage skills to be increased to 20% / level, for specialists to have a huge advantage over non specialists like it would be with a 20% / level DI for drone specialists. But that, again, is against EVE's philosophy of diminishing returns, and the limited edge high SP players have above low SP players, and the limited advantage you get from a skill at 5 over someone who has it at 4. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.24 12:44:00 -
[31]
- you can't sacrifice launchers for turrets or turrets for launchers, nor drones for either turret or launcher, why would you be able to sacrifice high slots (which can even be utility slots!) for drones? Hell, I bet all amarr would be glad to sacrifice their utility slot for another turret - wait, you're comparing drone +1 high slot mod to a damage mod to justify they should not need insane requirements, and you manage to see them right? That would mean that a drone specialist could have damage mods in both high and low slots. How about adding the possibility to fit damage mods in your drone bay for turret and launcher users? Gee, I suppose you wouldn't find that right of course... I would find drones+1 mods right, if only there were drones to add launcher/turret HP and the CPU/grid to fit them. And high slots modules which would give 20% damage to turrets/launchers, then allowing turrets and missiles specialists to sacrifice from their secondary or tertiary weapons (and their utility slots) to increase their main weapon damages, like the drone +1 module would do for drones specialists.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.24 12:44:00 -
[32] Edited by: Trelennen on 24/11/2005 12:44:34
- you can't sacrifice launchers for turrets or turrets for launchers, nor drones for either turret or launcher, why would you be able to sacrifice high slots (which can even be utility slots!) for drones? Hell, I bet all amarr would be glad to sacrifice their utility slot for another turret - wait, you're comparing drone +1 high slot mod to a damage mod to justify they should not need insane requirements, and you manage to see them right? That would mean that a drone specialist could have damage mods in both high and low slots. How about adding the possibility to fit damage mods in your drone bay for turret and launcher users? Gee, I suppose you wouldn't find that right of course... I would find drones+1 mods right, if only there were drones to add launcher/turret HP and the CPU/grid to fit them. And high slots modules which would give 20% damage to turrets/launchers, then allowing turrets and missiles specialists to sacrifice from their secondary or tertiary weapons (and their utility slots) to increase their main weapon damages, like the drone +1 module would do for drones specialists. edit: and there's no whine here, but reasonable and sensible thoughts about that stupid and most likely unbalanced +1 drone module. |
 Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.24 16:13:00 -
[33]
One SB won't take you very far after drone changes... Remember, there'll be less drones (well no much less drones if this silly modules gets in), but they'll have much more HP, which means they'll be way less vulnerable to SB. And now they're somewhat vulnerable to a large smartbomb, but medium, small or micro won't do jack against them. And try to use a SB in empire war, when most of the time drone users come up with one of them with an alt in npc corp to orbit and lock the drone users target, to prevent him using SB, and try to have him make a mistake and shoot at the NPC corp alt and be CONCORDOKEN...
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.24 16:13:00 -
[34]
One SB won't take you very far after drone changes... Remember, there'll be less drones (well no much less drones if this silly modules gets in), but they'll have much more HP, which means they'll be way less vulnerable to SB. And now they're somewhat vulnerable to a large smartbomb, but medium, small or micro won't do jack against them. And try to use a SB in empire war, when most of the time drone users come up with one of them with an alt in npc corp to orbit and lock the drone users target, to prevent him using SB, and try to have him make a mistake and shoot at the NPC corp alt and be CONCORDOKEN... |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.24 16:31:00 -
[35]
With new skills and new modules, drones will be able to go farther than 45km... And is this +1 drone module needed? No. Will it possibly break balance? Yes. Then why introduce it? To satisfy gallente drone users who cryed because they'll lose their swarm of drones? That's the only reason imho, and it's not a good one.
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.24 16:31:00 -
[36]
With new skills and new modules, drones will be able to go farther than 45km... And is this +1 drone module needed? No. Will it possibly break balance? Yes. Then why introduce it? To satisfy gallente drone users who cryed because they'll lose their swarm of drones? That's the only reason imho, and it's not a good one. |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.11.24 17:01:00 -
[37]
Better not introduce them at all  . As for the sentry drones, their DPS have been lowered too Heavy drones DPS, but their space usage too (they no longer take more space than heavy drones).
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.11.24 17:01:00 -
[38]
Better not introduce them at all . As for the sentry drones, their DPS have been lowered too Heavy drones DPS, but their space usage too (they no longer take more space than heavy drones). |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.12.05 18:59:00 -
[39]
But with these modules, you can swap for a weapon which will have 10% damage bonus. Why the typhoon can't swap its launcher for turrets to gain that 5% damage / level then? Or the raven for other missiles launchers? Or any ship with one bonus for one of its weapon type and none for the other weapon type? Or even all ships with drones, swap the drones for turrets/launchers to fully use their best bonus? It could eventually be OK to introduce this module without an equivalent for turrets / launchers if the added drones don't benefit from the ship bonus...
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Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.12.05 18:59:00 -
[40]
But with these modules, you can swap for a weapon which will have 10% damage bonus. Why the typhoon can't swap its launcher for turrets to gain that 5% damage / level then? Or the raven for other missiles launchers? Or any ship with one bonus for one of its weapon type and none for the other weapon type? Or even all ships with drones, swap the drones for turrets/launchers to fully use their best bonus? It could eventually be OK to introduce this module without an equivalent for turrets / launchers if the added drones don't benefit from the ship bonus... |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.12.09 14:36:00 -
[41]
Yes it's a nerf for all not full skilled pilots. And it makes Drone Interfacing skill even more out of EVE's philosophy of diminishing returns and tiny advantage of pilots with skills at 5 over those with skills at 4 that we have with all other damage skills giving only 5% damage / level. Of course before RMR, DI skills already gives more than 5% per level. Well, it gives a potential boost of more than 5% per level. On some ships with some drones, it'll be 0% / level (ships who can only use 5 heavy drones for example), on some (ships with 10 heavy drones) it's 20% / level, on drone carriers, it's 20% / level if you have 0 skill in BS/cruiser, 10% / level at max BS/cruiser skill. Now, do the low SPs pilots need to be nerfed? If so, why nerf them only with drones? Why have specific mechanics for drones? Why don't we reduce damage of turrets and launchers, and change turrets/launchers damage skills to give 20% damage / level? We should further more reduce base damage of drones and change heavy drones and the new scout drones damage skill to 20% damage / level too. Then low skilled pilots will really have no chance against higher skilled pilots, even if they specialize (well they will need 1 year specialising to stand a minimal chance). There is a solution to this, suggested several times. Yes it would boost a little low skilled pilots and those who didn't need DI skill at 5, but it would make drones skills more fair, like other weapon skills, and DI skill more in line with heavy drones skills. Solution is to increase base damage and mining yield of drones and set DI skill at 5% per level. *IF* that gives a too important boost to low skilled pilots (it will boost only those who could not use the maximum of drones, eg. those with DI skill not at 5, and drone carriers pilots with BS/cruiser skill not at 5 too, more boosted pilots will be those with low DI skill), it's also possible to give a smaller boost to base damage/mining yield and set DI skill at 10% / level, it'd be still more fair and make more sense than 20%, but that would still not be in line with other skills and weapon types. PS: to sum up, the idea was to increase base damage/mining yield by 60%, and reduce DI skill at 5% / level. At DI 5, it'd still do 1.6*1.25 = 2 = 100% more damage. Drone damage chart in current drones damage (eg. 1 after RMR drone with no skill = 0.5) It's hard to draw a chart, as it depends on the skill of the pilot and his ship. Small bay ships pilots are the more nerfed with this change. Another solution would be to allow 5 drones for everybody (as long as you have drones 1), reduce base damage of drones, and make drones skill and DI skills give 5% damage and mining yield / level. This would raise an issue with EW drones though, but maybe have another skill determine how many EW drones you can control would be an idea. Maybe determining the number of each EW drone max with the skill needed for these drones (yet it'll be a bit easier to have 3 EW drones than now with one of each though). No new system can be perfect, but this would be better than what's plan. A dev comment would be welcomed
Basicaly the latest info is supposed to be in the first post  Else it's on the test serve
|
Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.12.09 14:36:00 -
[42]
Yes it's a nerf for all not full skilled pilots. And it makes Drone Interfacing skill even more out of EVE's philosophy of diminishing returns and tiny advantage of pilots with skills at 5 over those with skills at 4 that we have with all other damage skills giving only 5% damage / level. Of course before RMR, DI skills already gives more than 5% per level. Well, it gives a potential boost of more than 5% per level. On some ships with some drones, it'll be 0% / level (ships who can only use 5 heavy drones for example), on some (ships with 10 heavy drones) it's 20% / level, on drone carriers, it's 20% / level if you have 0 skill in BS/cruiser, 10% / level at max BS/cruiser skill. Now, do the low SPs pilots need to be nerfed? If so, why nerf them only with drones? Why have specific mechanics for drones? Why don't we reduce damage of turrets and launchers, and change turrets/launchers damage skills to give 20% damage / level? We should further more reduce base damage of drones and change heavy drones and the new scout drones damage skill to 20% damage / level too. Then low skilled pilots will really have no chance against higher skilled pilots, even if they specialize (well they will need 1 year specialising to stand a minimal chance). There is a solution to this, suggested several times. Yes it would boost a little low skilled pilots and those who didn't need DI skill at 5, but it would make drones skills more fair, like other weapon skills, and DI skill more in line with heavy drones skills. Solution is to increase base damage and mining yield of drones and set DI skill at 5% per level. *IF* that gives a too important boost to low skilled pilots (it will boost only those who could not use the maximum of drones, eg. those with DI skill not at 5, and drone carriers pilots with BS/cruiser skill not at 5 too, more boosted pilots will be those with low DI skill), it's also possible to give a smaller boost to base damage/mining yield and set DI skill at 10% / level, it'd be still more fair and make more sense than 20%, but that would still not be in line with other skills and weapon types. PS: to sum up, the idea was to increase base damage/mining yield by 60%, and reduce DI skill at 5% / level. At DI 5, it'd still do 1.6*1.25 = 2 = 100% more damage. Drone damage chart in current drones damage (eg. 1 after RMR drone with no skill = 0.5) It's hard to draw a chart, as it depends on the skill of the pilot and his ship. Small bay ships pilots are the more nerfed with this change. Another solution would be to allow 5 drones for everybody (as long as you have drones 1), reduce base damage of drones, and make drones skill and DI skills give 5% damage and mining yield / level. This would raise an issue with EW drones though, but maybe have another skill determine how many EW drones you can control would be an idea. Maybe determining the number of each EW drone max with the skill needed for these drones (yet it'll be a bit easier to have 3 EW drones than now with one of each though). No new system can be perfect, but this would be better than what's plan. A dev comment would be welcomed
Basicaly the latest info is supposed to be in the first post Else it's on the test serve |
Trelennen |
Posted - 2005.12.09 15:19:00 -
[43] Edited by: Trelennen on 09/12/2005 15:19:15 PS: Shinca had previously made some comparison table: I'll add two columns: with 33% base damage/yield increase and 10% per DI level, and with 5 drones for everybody as long as you have Drones 1, and 5% per drones level and per DI level. It'd be better with cumulative skills (eg. +50% with drones and DI at 5, but that's not how EVE works, so we'll have 1.25*1.25=1.5625 = 56.25% at both level 5. We need 0.64 base damage to get same result at max skills. Couldn't get a good table layout on the forum with text, so here's the text file: Linkage Low skilled characters still have a boost compared to now, but the progression is comparable to other weapon types. There's a bit less than 25% difference between somebody with small turret 5 and somebody with small turret 1. And 15% difference between somebody with surgical strike 5 and somebody without surgical strike. Why when it concerns drones should a pilot with DI 5 have 100% damage than a pilot without it? 25% more would be much more fair. If to achieve this we need to slightly boost very low skilled pilots (eg. with drones 1 or 2), that would be good. Any noob gets drones at 3 pretty quickly when he uses drones considering it's a couple of hours training time, like any noob gets to small turret 3 because it's fast to train (and it's a prerequisite for med turrets ).edit:
Nah, hadn't count the posts. If I had I'd have post to get it though 
|
Trelennen Disturbed Hoggs |
Posted - 2005.12.09 15:19:00 -
[44] Edited by: Trelennen on 09/12/2005 15:19:15 PS: Shinca had previously made some comparison table: I'll add two columns: with 33% base damage/yield increase and 10% per DI level, and with 5 drones for everybody as long as you have Drones 1, and 5% per drones level and per DI level. It'd be better with cumulative skills (eg. +50% with drones and DI at 5, but that's not how EVE works, so we'll have 1.25*1.25=1.5625 = 56.25% at both level 5. We need 0.64 base damage to get same result at max skills. Couldn't get a good table layout on the forum with text, so here's the text file: Linkage Low skilled characters still have a boost compared to now, but the progression is comparable to other weapon types. There's a bit less than 25% difference between somebody with small turret 5 and somebody with small turret 1. And 15% difference between somebody with surgical strike 5 and somebody without surgical strike. Why when it concerns drones should a pilot with DI 5 have 100% damage than a pilot without it? 25% more would be much more fair. If to achieve this we need to slightly boost very low skilled pilots (eg. with drones 1 or 2), that would be good. Any noob gets drones at 3 pretty quickly when he uses drones considering it's a couple of hours training time, like any noob gets to small turret 3 because it's fast to train (and it's a prerequisite for med turrets ).edit:
Nah, hadn't count the posts. If I had I'd have post to get it though |
Originally by: Eyeshadow
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