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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.06 18:23:00 -
[61]
 Quote:
ga'ia said: ...ego-****.
You missed his main point, I think.
I'll try and clear it up here:
I go to the gate the poster is at, and I see him there. I immediately warp away to the nearest object I can click on. While doing this I am still protected by the invul [lag shield] As my ship moves to warp, I have plenty of time to bookmark the container, and name it '<system X> gate X IJ' As soon as I drop out of warp, I instantly warp to my new bookmark, and insta-warp out.
There is no counter for this. The can cannot be removed. ever. 100% protection through that gate. You don't even need an MWD/ECM/anything, in fact.
I have no problem with people using bookmarks to get through gates, it shows intelligence and planning. but this method mentioned is pretty weak.
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.06 18:39:00 -
[62]
I say remove the ability to Bookmark cans.
Not only does permit cheap actions like this, it also allows warping to deep space to hide, and it really REALLY cheezes me off when I go to open a cargo can only to ACCIDENTALLY click on the wrong option and get greeted by that damn modal "WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL THIS BOOKMARK" window.
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Deception + Information + Skill |
ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.08.06 18:49:00 -
[63]
drunkenmaster, talking to me now? If so, I perfectly understood the post and you can see my reply of it on the previous page.
Point: The strategy is completely obtainable without use of the secure containers, therefor he is only trying to find a scapegoat for his frustrations that people are not fools that go straight into the blockade, but finds way around it.
The ego-**** part is that m0o tends to make everything about themselves, therefor ego. Then the fact that IŠve yet to experienced a intellectual post by a m0o member, the saying "Thinking with your **** instead of your head" is most suitable, therefor i combined these to ego-****. No affense.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.06 19:30:00 -
[64]
Ok, lets turn the tables, in the information of the game it is stated you should be allowed to TRADE bookmarks.
This naturaly meens you will get even more problems as the local chanel will flare with people wanting to buy blocade running bookmarks, no cargo canisters no fuzz and to bad pirates every ship and its exaust pipe will warp in within 10k of the gate.
Its inevidable, learn to pirate in some other way.
tis just what is what and I still havent seen any link to this so called place where it states it is an exploit, fess up rev.
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la'Rei
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Posted - 2003.08.06 19:40:00 -
[65]
Fester - That wont work.
Stations, are highly secure, and basicaly pointless to try and camp at, due to the turrets.
So no stations.
Belts.
I DONT WANT TO KILL MINERS. I want to kill YOU, the traders! You know.. indys with Refined ORE, not un-refined ore.
-rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.08.06 19:54:00 -
[66]
I don't need to say much.
But a bug becomes an exploit when it is used by a player to have certain advantages that he is not supposed to have. This is a definition that won't change no matter what you say.
And I forgot this one:
Issuing local buy orders to keep players from selling to a certain demand.
It IS an exploit when a player does that to keep that demand for himself only.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:13:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Quote:
Stealth said stuff.
And the grid bug *is* an exploit. Officially. And a pretty low way to fight. Also, very difficult, I would imagine.
VERY difficult to exploit, if exploitable at all, considering that (at least in my experience) if you have a target locked and you cross a grid boundary, that target unlocks when it disappears. Very annoying when hunting an NPC convoy and the convoy and half your corpmates disappear.
Remember, the grid goes both ways. You can't see them and they can't see you. There's no way to tell whether or not someone is on the other side of a boundary intentionally or unintentionally. IIRC, the only time a grid boundary actually caused someone to gain/lose an advantage in PvP was when FA warped into a gate, and the gate was not visible from the warpin point. Only half of the FA fleet moved forward to cross the boundary, the rest stayed back clueless. Was m0o exploiting? No, considering that they were near a space-based object. Was FA exploiting? They dropped out of a warp point set by the game.
I love how a few days ago, someone from m0o said, "OMG FA IS EXPLOITING THE GRID! I HAVE A SCREENSHOT OF THEM AND A STATION ON TEH SCANNER BUT YUO CAN'T SEE THEM OR TEH STATION!" - Of course, an FA member could just as easily have taken a screenshot of m0o "exploiting" in that instance. And clearly if you're staying in the same grid zone as a station you're NOT exploiting... Plenty of valid reasons for being near a major celestial.
I've seen both sides accuse the other of exploiting, but I've seen no real proof other than bad luck with VERY badly placed grid boundaries. (They shouldn't be anywhere near a station or stargate.)
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:23:00 -
[68]
I'm confused.
Even with or without a can if you bookmark your current location you will simply come out of warp anything up to 20km further back from your bookmark. Hence why even bookmarking the jumpgate is a waste of time.
As l understand it, setting up a bookmark that gives insta-jump requires you to fly past the gate and make a bookmark 10+ km (20 to be sure) beyond the gate so when you use it you actually turn up on top of the gate.
How is this achieved by this "bookmarking as soon as you come out of warp and warping away again" stategy??
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:24:00 -
[69]
I've seen how the boxes work, and how ridiculously hard you'd have work just to attack someone that you could beat in a straight fight.
I found some thieves in venal the other day and they were mining off the charts, took me half an hour to track them down with the scanner.
But I was saying that the devs have explicitly stated that this is an exploit, rather than the others which mostly were brushed off as 'low tactics'/etc.
ga'ia, I wasn't having a go at you. ego ***** is the funniest thing I read for a while. Guess I should have smilied it.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:40:00 -
[70]
Quote:
I'm confused.
Even with or without a can if you bookmark your current location you will simply come out of warp anything up to 20km further back from your bookmark. Hence why even bookmarking the jumpgate is a waste of time.
As l understand it, setting up a bookmark that gives insta-jump requires you to fly past the gate and make a bookmark 10+ km (20 to be sure) beyond the gate so when you use it you actually turn up on top of the gate.
How is this achieved by this "bookmarking as soon as you come out of warp and warping away again" stategy??
someone dumped a secure can 20 km beyond the gate already. you just bookmark it as you warp in, warp out and warp back to your new bookmark. All of this can be done while invincible.
This can cannot be destroyed. thus, anyone can get a free insta-jump BM.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:43:00 -
[71]
Either they get rid of invulnerability times or secure containers.
Pirate whine versus carebear whine.
Guess who will win?
You can't get rid of invulnerability times AND prevent MWD from being activated mid-warp but neither can you get rid of secure containers because miners rely on them (I think).
Keep invulnerability, prevent MWD being activated mid-warp, find a new solution to ore thievery, and all will be happy in Evesville.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.08.06 20:49:00 -
[72]
Got it, cheers DM. 
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HP Lovecraft
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Posted - 2003.08.06 21:32:00 -
[73]
I love it when the cow noise boyz (aka moo) whine, especially about an exploit. 
Actually I have the heart of an Exploiter and a PKer---I keep them on my desk in a jar. |
Cptn Stardust
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Posted - 2003.08.06 21:41:00 -
[74]
Yes, there is a use for secure containers.
Well two actually.
I use them whilst mining, and Ore Thiefs around, in same system, they stole stuff from folks that dropped standard unsecure containers, but of course left me alone
When needing to transfer something of high value, you put that into secure container, secure container goes in cargo hold.
Lose ship to crash, pirates..whatever. They don't get your stuff.
The Rev has a point, and it's in human nature to try to find a way to exploit just about anything.
If some pirates found an exploit that enabled them to kill more easily, would they really be so honest as to report that to CCP right away?
When you find a potential exploit, just tell the devs about it.
I've done a little test with a small secure container, yep it's still sitting there in space after one and half weeks.
I do agree that they need a 'timer' on them |
Ono Baroux
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Posted - 2003.08.06 21:51:00 -
[75]
It's just funny to see M0o, a corp built by exploits, whine over this or anything like it...
==============Hadean Drive Yards==============
2nd LT. Topher "Ono" Baroux, [email protected]
Logistic Operations Group -- Research and Development Operative |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.06 21:57:00 -
[76]
I still cant understand how droping a beacon to home in on is a bug or bug abuse.
Well lets call it an exploit, I cant see that ither however as we are suposed to be able to trade in bookmarks the point becomes moot (no pun intended) at best.
As soon as a gate becomes camped some entrepreneur will go on the local channel and start selling his gate camp run by bookmarks for cash, all the pirates can do is get in on the sales.
Well actually selling bookmarks might be a good way of leading players astray, camp a gate, kill a fwe ships and then start selling false coordinates...
In any case I cant see why using bookmarks to increase your chance of breaking a blocade can be considered exploiting the rules, what comes next, no bookmarking at preferable range from npc clone points? at roids? at stations?...
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Belle Adonna
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:09:00 -
[77]
WOOOOHOOOO.....a first post.
I would first like to say, Reverend, my bookmarks already make me autojump. And no, I didnt use a secure container, I made them myself, and im handing them out to everyone that I can. Yes, they are immenently copyable, and transferrable. (jettison them in a container).
second, with out the ten seconds invulnerability *bug*, this game would be unplayable. Its entirely too easy for you in your scorp to target and fire on me in less than 5 seconds without it. Its not a bug, its on purpose. I wouldnt have been playing this wonderful game this long without it, too many pirates like yourself camping gates. I would have lost way too many ships. Dont like it? Too bad. Regarding the secured container in the area you like to hunt PC's? Again, too damn bad. Its probably from someone with the foresight to put everything valuable into a secured container while traveling through the system. After you killed em, guess what, all you got is a secured container you cant touch. Id rather lose the use of that stuff then let you have it. I have never, and will never pay mOO anything. These Containers just make it possible to do that. Deal.
To the person that said make it impossible to bookmark containers, bite me. Its the only way i have found to bookmark someplace that doesnt have a celestial body already there. If you know a way, please explain it to me. Id love to hear it.
With out the ability to bookmark SPECIFIC locations, this game will become unplayable, for me and any other person that comes into the game after i did. Normally warping to a gate over 30 KM away is ridiculous, but Ill deal with it.
my two Isk.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:13:00 -
[78]
Edited by: agrizla on 06/08/2003 22:16:43
Quote:
It's just funny to see M0o, a corp built by exploits, whine over this or anything like it...
As you don't appear to be able to read and digest what you read, The Reverend posted :
This is a personal expression, and does not in anyway include the thoughts of any of our corp members or allys.
I get really tired with all this "lets bash the pirate corps" crap that goes on. So you lost a ship sometime to m0o. Big deal! We've all lost ships (or most of us have). I've lost 4 cruisers and god know how many drones in the last week (mainly to CTD's) but I'm not moaning about it or bashing the PC pirates who got 2 of them because they are just doing what they do. Hell CCP ought to be paying m0o as they were about the only thing in the game during June that kept people awake
Give it a rest eh?
NB - I am not a pirate but given all the bloody whining that goes on about them I'm thinking damn hard about becoming one.
Edit - I have been moaning about the CTD's and I will continue to do so - mainly because of the crap that Polaris/GM's came out with that it wasn't the server at fault. Not because I've lost items - a conservative estimate of the items I've lost to bugs would be in excess of 75 mill.
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Jeff Jones
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:14:00 -
[79]
Or just make it so that secure containers are destructable however if someone attacks a secure container then the container's owner (and maybe current gang?) can return fire.
Since jettisoning stuff into a secure container isn't the same as an insecured one it would seem right ot allow the owner to protect them.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:21:00 -
[80]
Edited by: agrizla on 06/08/2003 22:24:08
Oh and to get back on topic  :
The answer is simple. Give secure containers a power source - something must keep them secure after all? If you don't put the can into a hanger after say 2 days in space then the canister becomes a normal one and hence has the "disintegrate timer" that normal cans have.
Edit - I don't agree it's any sort of exploit BTW. If you want to setup a way for non-pirates to instajump without making any personal gain then I can't see how that is an exploit. I can see the database creaking and then collapsing in a heap if the cans stay there forever though....
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:22:00 -
[81]
Drunk I am what most would consider a "good guy" and I agree with you 100% it is not acceptable to have things not be the same for both sides. Exploits are no good for anybody and should be remove post haste.
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.06 22:48:00 -
[82]
"To the person that said make it impossible to bookmark containers, bite me. Its the only way i have found to bookmark someplace that doesnt have a celestial body already there. If you know a way, please explain it to me. Id love to hear it."
You can bookmark anything but mobile objects (NPCs, PCs) currently. Thus, every location that isn't empty space will have an object that is a valid warp anchor.
At least as far as I've found. Abanonded stations, debris, and other POI can be Bookmarked (once you are close to some), individual asteroids, stations, planets, moons, jumpgates, spawn containers, and just about anything else worth warping to. Of course, I might have missed something and you can tell me where I can find something worth going to that doesn't have an object that can be bookmarked.
/shrug
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Deception + Information + Skill |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:36:00 -
[83]
Server reset needs to kill cargo containers. There is no reason for those things to stay adrift in space 24/7. They will simply inflate the database and slow the servers down.
They are simply being abused.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Tauren
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:39:00 -
[84]
Well then I should get my bookmarks up and going through your space then.
Follow the white rabbits |
Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:39:00 -
[85]
Hmm, just curious about this exploit business.
Someone was complaining about the containers being used to bypass blockades, and wondered how they were supposed to maintain blockades with the 'exploit' available.
Who said that blockading gates was some kind of protected right?
That's what I don't get.
I mean, if ya can do it, fine.. but to actually complain because someone figured-out a way to beat the campers at their own game?
Hmm...
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Foomanshoe
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:45:00 -
[86]
Well Rev, while exploiters suck, exploiting yourself doesnt make things better. And going out and saying you will exploit kinda ruins the arguement that you didnt know any better and is likely to get you a one way account banning.
We all have to put up with exploiters, its better to inform CCP and wait for a fix then to start exploiting yourself.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:49:00 -
[87]
Firstly Im still waiting for the official handdown from a dev,
Is it an exploit to warp in, bookmark a secure container during imunity and warp back to the bookmark?
If it is then simply make it impossible to make bookmarks when the warpengines are down.
But lets face it, this is not the issue is it, the issue seems to be the fact that players have found a way to get past gate blocades and its ****ing some PC pirates off.
I would be lying if I said I felt sorry for you, no more easy pickings for you.
You wanted us not to complain and try to figure out a way to beat you at the gate game, well someone figgured out a way, great, so why are you whining?
You now have a new problem, so deal with it.
Lastly I still would like for someone to explain how leaving one secure container at a gate becomes an exploit.
Another Idea comes to mind, ask for tractor beams, a hig power slot that can move smaller items a distance away, you still cant scoop the container or shoot it but by pulling it away from the gate some 20km would render it useless for its intended purpouse.
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Entity
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Posted - 2003.08.07 01:51:00 -
[88]
The infinite lifetime of secure cans WILL eventually become a large problem, just like the noob items cluttering up in peoples assets.
Stuff that comes and never goes -> ever growing database.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.07 02:11:00 -
[89]
Yes, over time secure cans will cause a problem however making them destroyable is not the answer, I like the timer idea, when the container is ejected a timer starts, if a person with the correct pass does not scoop it up within a set time the cans become killable.
A simple coulor code should do nicely to show wich type it is as could having the can name framed by for example *'s.
Also a can having been killable for a duration should selfdestruct cleaning up space.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.08.07 03:36:00 -
[90]
Quote:
So when non-pirates find a way to beat the system, such as leaving an unbreakable/everlasting can at ideal bookamrking range so that everyone can warp in, BM, warp back, then instajump. Then there are no complaints from the 'good guys'.
Well I consider myself one of the good people and all I can say is that I see this as an exploit and something must be done about this asap.
Mai's Idealog |
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