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An effective way to stop macro'ers

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.06 15:03:00 - [1] Macro lowlifes running multiple accounts in order to make money on real life auction sites, can do so cause they are invulnerable in NPC corporations. So change that situation. What if a new player after an X amount of skillpoints is automatically moved into a NPC controlled corporation that CAN be declared war upon. The player base will solve the problem. I see a problem arising for honest freelancers though. Put some thoughts here people.
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.06 15:06:00 - [2] Some idea popping up in my own corp about it is to have an option for freelancers to be without any corp at all, if the game would allow for personal war declarations.
Toxic Four	Posted - 2005.11.06 15:30:00 - [3] After 1-2 mil sp palyers are booted from npc corp... If they join a player corp fine. Otherwise they can be freelancer. Create a new type of war called a duel. Duel is personal war between two players (player can't declare war on corp/alliance and corp/alliance can't declare on player). Cost of duels would work like cost of wars (gets more expensive to be in multiple duels) but cheaper. Might also have faster clock, 2hrs to start hostilities, payment is for 24 hours... Freelancers are not allowed to refuse duel, but players in corps, either npc or player can refuse duels. Finally duels are not permitted in 1.0 - 0.9 space. If the macro miners are kept in a few systems ccp will be able to keep a close eye on them and maybe have time to intervene.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.11.06 16:15:00 - [4] Originally by: Toxic Four Create a new type of war called a duel. Duel is personal war between two players (player can't declare war on corp/alliance and corp/alliance can't declare on player). Cost of duels would work like cost of wars (gets more expensive to be in multiple duels) but cheaper. Might also have faster clock, 2hrs to start hostilities, payment is for 24 hours... Freelancers are not allowed to refuse duel, but players in corps, either npc or player can refuse duels. Finally duels are not permitted in 1.0 - 0.9 space. If the macro miners are kept in a few systems ccp will be able to keep a close eye on them and maybe have time to intervene. wouldn't work for a coupla reasons: first, macros are NOT solo, and duelling each member of a macro team would be very costly secondly, 1.0-0.9 is where almost all the macros are now, simply because of the lack of rats tbh, making kestrels able to fit 4 standard launchers again would be the easiest way of solving the problem make me a sig! Now 75mil of prizes! ends at midnight on tuesday morning This Zig. For great justice!
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.06 18:17:00 - [5] Quote: secondly, 1.0-0.9 is where almost all the macros are now, simply because of the lack of rats Not true, due to lack of roids in those systems, they have moved to at least Domain's 0.6 systems. 9 barges, 3 indy's, ferox and moa Stripping whole systems. Some of you will have seen this guy around.
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2005.11.07 02:49:00 - [6] what is macro mining?
Phyo	Posted - 2005.11.07 02:57:00 - [7] A macro is a program that records mousemoves and repeat them on interval, basically the player goes to sleep/work while the program mines for him. Don't think its advised to put the whole explanation here on this forum.. as we want them erased from the game, not increase the number.
Futher Bezluden	Posted - 2005.11.07 05:53:00 - [8] how about keeping the current system of petitioning CCP about a possible exploit. I saw 4 possible macro miners a couple of days ago, so I petitioned it as an exploit and included the names. CCP adds their names to their list and checks them out in whatever manner they do. CCP banned a lot of macro miners, so they know what they are doing. I like the idea of freelancers, but 2 million skillpoints equals a new character who has done all the learning and adv learning skills or has their learning skills to 4 and is poorly skilled everywhere else. 5mil skillpoints might be a better limit. The duel idea will be exploited by griefers, otherwise it sounds like a good idea.
Arx Nemesis	Posted - 2005.11.07 06:47:00 - [9] how doy you determine its a macro miner? you think it's easy? if ccp with all theyr logs and tools barely can establish that player is using macros then how will you without those tools make a difference? Short example: some from our corp went to small ice mining in jita and ppl on the belt started yelling in local "look - a macro miner", why? cause we work efficently as a team, got us laughing really, but shows you how easely players get into wrong conclusion. So how you gonna see if player is macroing? chatting in local? private messages? eve mails? well tough luck, personally i dont chat in local, block all convos automatically and dont respond to unknown evemails, in short, if you arent wearing my corp colors you are nothing to me, will that mark me as macro miner on a belt if i choose to do some boring mining with my two accounts and do it effectivly? Probably, so, the current system is fine enough, if you have your suspicions - petition it, ccp will take it's time cause they need to PROVE it, players cant do much except starting to harass those who really arent macroing. ----------------------------------------- The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.07 15:08:00 - [10] Arx: Its not even just about duelling on macro players. See it as a new form of warfare in the game. Many ppl have an alt character thats not affiliated to any of the player corporations and still in their starter corp. Those can get away with anything, griefing, ore thieving, namecalling, etc.. Sure you can petition those players, but is that how we want it in this game ? eg calling the GM's and complain ? I rather take it in my own hands, you play foul on me... okay lets see what you got if concord doesn't protect you. Its all in the ways of EVE. I like the duel idea.
Toqua	Posted - 2005.11.07 15:19:00 - [11] Bouncing the Idiots is fun. If they scream, you apologize... T.
Boonaki	Posted - 2005.11.07 15:54:00 - [12] How about instead of banning, they flag the account as a -10 sec status to all chars. Fear the Ibis of doom.
Productioner	Posted - 2005.11.07 17:04:00 - [13] Frist you cant look at a player and tell if there macing, unless you are willing to sit there and watch them for hours on hours, you can ram them to see what they do. but other then that, there is not much you can do to tell. but CCP will band you for 15 days if they think you running a mac.. and I did say (think),, Director of making things that go BOOM, Life is only one step away from death
Phyo	Posted - 2005.11.07 17:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Boonaki How about instead of banning, they flag the account as a -10 sec status to all chars. For that there's still a need for a GM to get this player flagged. The idea is to totally put it in the hands of the community.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.07 21:56:00 - [15] RMR with can flagging should deal with the macro problem. It should become hazardous to become a macro miner after implimentation. Of course being an ore thief will likewise become hazardous. What I think could make more sense would be Karma Points applied to the NPC corp character (-) or (+). Everytime the GMs get a macro alert they flag the potential macroer. Once a set amount of (-) karma has been voted by DIFFERENT characters (one vote per character) the GM sets the macroer to -10.0 sec. I suggest this because if your... 1) in an npc corp 2) flagged by many players 3) petitioned repeatedly by many players 4) showing the signs of being a macroer (i wont say all the tells i have seen to keep them stupid) you should be set up for getting nuked as your (as a macroer) ripping off all the legitimate EVE players on every level. I realize this can be potentially abused but the simple remody for ppl who are being ganked is to simply join a corp for a while to "prove" they arnt macros. Another recourse is to do the above... Once you exceed a set period of time in the NPC (read here NEW PLAYER CORP) you are booted to a semi live NPC corp that can be war dec'd. I realize this will set off ppl who want to live in NPC corps due to war dec'd but at some point you should join a player corp. IMHO there are only 2 reasons to stay infinitum in a NPC corp 1) avoiding war dec'd and 2) helping new players to EVE. 1) is IMHO tough luck get out there and fraternize more 2) is fixable by making the interm semi corp share the same channel as the NOOB corp channel TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Transom	Posted - 2005.11.08 03:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Transom on 08/11/2005 03:53:25 Frankly I'm not much of a miner myself and havent seen people I know are macroing. However I don't like ore thieves or loot thieves either. Most non-pirate player corps will not tolerate this behavior from their own members, why do the NPC corps? As for the cost of waging war on the entire group in the macro I am confident I can alter their profit motive by splashing just a few of the barges and maybe the indy. Also I am thinking duel fee is MUCH lower than corp war cost. NPC corps are an exploit!
Toxic Four	Posted - 2005.11.08 03:57:00 - [17] Frankly I'm not much of a miner myself and am not sure I would spot a macro user myself. Partly because right now there is no good reason to look... That said, I don't like ore thieves or loot can thieves either. Most non-pirate player corps will not tolerate this behavior from their own members, why do the NPC corps? As for the cost of waging war on the entire group in the macro I am confident I can alter their profit motive by splashing just a few of the barges and maybe the indy. Also I am thinking duel fee is MUCH lower than corp war cost. NPC corps are an exploit!
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2005.11.08 07:45:00 - [18] Heres What I say. After 3 months of playing, You must leave the NPC corp, to join a Player corp. Should you be kicked or leave that player corp You go into NO CORP AT ALL ! There is no benefit of being in no corp at all, being in no corp means that you are not subject to CCP/CONCORD/SENTY Protection ANY WHERE ! This way , No one can stay in an NPC corp at all, And it encourages people to join player corps if they want police protction in High sec areas. It also stops Dreadnought/ Freighter Pilots Hiding behind NPC corps. This idea Sorts SO MANY EvE Issues in one fell swoop nOOb Corps are nOOb Corps , its an exploit for someone to stay in them for their safety. We should make them what they really are , A TRAINING CAMP FOR NEW PLAYERS. Not a Means for harrassment and exploit. ------------------------------------------------ "Its not Feasible to Dismiss an Idea because of lag"

Oveur	Posted - 2005.11.08 09:56:00 - [19] Lets not go overboard and do something that potentially hurts or annoys thousands of people which it's not supposed to affect. Forcing players out of an NPC corp would do exactly that. Rethink this so the action would only affect people that macro-mine, that's the real difficult part. Senior Producer EVE Online

ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.11.08 10:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Arx Nemesis how doy you determine its a macro miner? you think it's easy? if ccp with all theyr logs and tools barely can establish that player is using macros then how will you without those tools make a difference? Short example: some from our corp went to small ice mining in jita and ppl on the belt started yelling in local "look - a macro miner", why? cause we work efficently as a team, got us laughing really, but shows you how easely players get into wrong conclusion. So how you gonna see if player is macroing? chatting in local? private messages? eve mails? well tough luck, personally i dont chat in local, block all convos automatically and dont respond to unknown evemails, in short, if you arent wearing my corp colors you are nothing to me, will that mark me as macro miner on a belt if i choose to do some boring mining with my two accounts and do it effectivly? Probably, so, the current system is fine enough, if you have your suspicions - petition it, ccp will take it's time cause they need to PROVE it, players cant do much except starting to harass those who really arent macroing. Do not move to Tamo to mine. You will loose your ship. If you are not responding to direct questions while mining with few ships ignoring everything you are as close to macro miner as possible. Because we can't see the difference you are loosing ship. We had 3 destroyers and Caracal mining there lately. We asked them, we bumped them, we shoot them to structure - no reaction. They got reported and killed.
Somatic Neuron	Posted - 2005.11.08 15:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Oveur Lets not go overboard and do something that potentially hurts or annoys thousands of people which it's not supposed to affect. Forcing players out of an NPC corp would do exactly that. Rethink this so the action would only affect people that macro-mine, that's the real difficult part. NPC Corps are probably one of the most annoying problems in the game. They are the haven of the griefers, macro miners and scammers, where they hide out behind the barrier of CONCORD's protection, immune from legal recourse of war...and you are left with illegal action as your only recourse. Until we can declare war on individual players, you're going to continue to hear repeated calls for players to automatically get kicked out of the NPC corps. Give us the tools we need to deal with the problems ourselves. ----------
Hohenheim OfLight	Posted - 2005.11.08 15:32:00 - [22] Dont forget about ore thiefs who hide in npc corps with just enuth skills to fly an indy. they would never leave.
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.11.08 15:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Oveur Lets not go overboard and do something that potentially hurts or annoys thousands of people which it's not supposed to affect. Forcing players out of an NPC corp would do exactly that. Rethink this so the action would only affect people that macro-mine, that's the real difficult part. Did you consider using tools such as PunkBuster?
ecam's Hunter	Posted - 2005.11.08 15:50:00 - [24] I aint read all the threads, but macro miners only mine where there aint rats, correct?? well stop barges been able to mine in 1.0 barges or throw in some rats into the safer systems that only attack if you aint moved in 2 hrs or so. but realy stop any thing over frig size been able to mine in 1.0 and crusers in 0.9. make it a law and they get concord a caned. Little harch but effective. you could have a sumit like a pop up screen that says "you have been inactive for 1 hr, would you like me to save you band with" if no answer in 2 mins they get booted.... however moving systems/docking in that 2 hrs re-sets the clock. I mean do you ever really sit in space for 2 hrs or more and not dock or jump, well 1.0 any way???? I bet not as you can't belt rat and gate campers won't sit for that long b4 a fleet battle starts! ----> Insert something funny here <----
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.11.08 17:10:00 - [25] i have to say, my favourite idea so far is to continue the current system of detection, but rather than banning, make the macroer flagged to all players all the time. prevent him from placing escrows or player trading. do NOT have concord shoot him unless he agresses someone who hasn't attacked him. we can all go macro hunting without losing kessies
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.08 18:06:00 - [26] Originally by: ecam's Hunter I aint read all the threads, but macro miners only mine where there aint rats, correct?? no i have seen macroers as low as 0.5 before. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.11.08 19:39:00 - [27] I can only make the suggestions that I've always made: 1)Nerf empire roid respawn. 2)Reverse time and never implement ice slavery. Make ways of earning money that don't involve time-intensive manual labor, but instead planning, management, deal brokering and protecting the fragile means of production from raiders. Realistic suggestion: Ok, how about we make mining a skill and cooperation intensive process that ends relatively quickly. The more people you have combining specialist module effects on a roid, the more ore it dumps per 30 second round. Give us special ore hold or ore containers and make them entirely non-useful by industrials. Better yet, make it a process where we tell the system the exact quantity of ore we want, and it tells the players the combination of effects needed to acquire that number in the next 30 seconds. I personally would rather see a mining squad fit more roid stabilization and anti-npc gear to enhance yeild rather than more mining lasers. The more environmental responsese the better. This effect can also be combined with the ideas on special random field effects for asteroid belts. Then you have crossover effects from interactions of general fields and specific roid types as well as specialist miner gear. The catch to accelerating ore withdrawal is that we have either have to accelerate ore consumption or insert a time sink in the form of refining. CCP succeeded with this by giving POS a refining time period, which I personally applauded. This needs to be extended to the refineries in normal stations. For some reason a little voice in the back of my head tells me that CCP was reevaluating the some aspects of rental features in stations. Since I am a chronic fabricator and BS specialist, I no longer possess the faculty to distinguish what I want people to believe from what I might have known to be true. So I take this with a grain of salt. "Everything I love is combustible."
Fooball	Posted - 2005.11.08 22:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Futher Bezluden how about keeping the current system of petitioning CCP about a possible exploit. I saw 4 possible macro miners a couple of days ago, so I petitioned it as an exploit and included the names. CCP adds their names to their list and checks them out in whatever manner they do. CCP banned a lot of macro miners, so they know what they are doing. As a side note. Some of the macro miners are substantially better at their stuff than the others. It takes a bit work but you can get practically invulnerable to the GMs' tools. Noticed a few that has been going on for weeks though they have been petitioned by most likely several people
Partisan Ograe	Posted - 2005.11.08 22:50:00 - [29] Edited by: Partisan Ograe on 08/11/2005 22:53:53 well ive seen several macros that have been around for a while but i get the feeling that CCP is doing the same thing as before letting a whole bunch of macros get overconfident and out in the open then ban them all in one fowl swoop Oh but also a vast majority of the macros appear to be Chinesse which means, if CCP isolates China in its own universe like its been purposed a lot of everyones problems would be solved.
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.08 22:55:00 - [30] Guess those have names like gldkajdkf and fufulkjk.. and when you try to convo them their only reply is 'I don't speak english' on whatever question you ask. Even though Oveur doesn't like the idea of forcing players out of the starter corporations, just that is a good solution to this. At this moment those macro users are harrassing everyone else by emptying whole constellations in a week, and there is nothing I can do to stop them. Ye ye bump them.. well that can be fun for an hour, but not 24/7. Petions get answered with 'Were doing all we can but it takes time to adress all complaints'. So the GM's have their hands more then full. Oveur, think it over once more. Your players can get rid of this problem. I like the duel idea and apparently I'm not the only one as this thread is growing.

Oveur	Posted - 2005.11.09 09:35:00 - [31] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Oveur Lets not go overboard and do something that potentially hurts or annoys thousands of people which it's not supposed to affect. Forcing players out of an NPC corp would do exactly that. Rethink this so the action would only affect people that macro-mine, that's the real difficult part. Did you consider using tools such as PunkBuster? PunkBuster would help, if everyone was modifying the client. Most people are using a very simple mouse macro. Senior Producer EVE Online

Boonaki	Posted - 2005.11.09 10:06:00 - [32] How about player driven volenteers such as ISD to look into macro-miners. Anyone with a cov ops could warp in undected and check it out. It's pretty easy to spot a macro miner operation. Train the volenteers on how to spot them, maybe give them a few tools that couldn't be abused. Report findings to the over worked GM's, they do a 2 minute investigation vs 30+ minutes and ban their accounts, block their IP (not 100% effective but hey) and ban their credit card. Fear the Ibis of doom.
Boonaki	Posted - 2005.11.09 10:07:00 - [33] We need a player driven anti-macro miner channel. Sponsored by CCP so people actually use it. Fear the Ibis of doom.
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2005.11.09 11:02:00 - [34] Edited by: ArchenTheGreat on 09/11/2005 11:03:26 Originally by: Oveur Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Oveur Lets not go overboard and do something that potentially hurts or annoys thousands of people which it's not supposed to affect. Forcing players out of an NPC corp would do exactly that. Rethink this so the action would only affect people that macro-mine, that's the real difficult part. Did you consider using tools such as PunkBuster? PunkBuster would help, if everyone was modifying the client. Most people are using a very simple mouse macro. As far as I know PunkBuster checks system memory for most common makro programs too. So it fails only when someone uses program not known to PunkBuster authors.
Phyo	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:28:00 - [35] This idea should not be on page 5, so bumped
Mas Sacre	Posted - 2005.11.14 06:09:00 - [36] imo they should hunt down all macro-***** and ban them...they bring eve in disbalance!! **faces who are too lazy to play...don't play!!!!
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:53:00 - [37] I have another suggestion... Why not limit trial accounts to Frigates only. No industrials, no retrievers (yes i have seen a macro group this weekend in retrievers, and yes they were petitioned), no cruisers. its a TRIAL not a full game go. sure it limits what can be done but i have seem MANY macros flying ospreys within the trial period. MAKE MACROING WITH TRIALS UNPROFITABLE. Ie make the macroers PAY TO PLAY !!!! Now again I have seen macros in everything from industrials, to frigs, to cruisers, to barges to battleships. How much are we really hurting players if they get booted from the NPC corps after a set time or set number of skill points. I for one think the War Dec NPC corp idea is perfect. 1) limit the trial account to frigates 2) make the time/sps NPC corp to get booted to 3) limit the trial account to 7 days (ie you have to remake the character every 7 days to continue your "trial" aka macro freebie account) 4) make a nuisince rat for highest security space that SPECIFIALLY interferes with mining (an energy vampire or neutrializer rat) TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Galifardeua	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:58:00 - [38] Originally by: TotensBurntCorpse 3) limit the trial account to 7 days (ie you have to remake the character every 7 days to continue your "trial" aka macro freebie account) This would stop people from joining. A week is too little fo some people to try the game.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:16:00 - [39] Could try limiting what trial accounts could do, kinda like lock them into a permanent tutorial or something. Though as a trial user, this would **** me off. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
Dray	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:39:00 - [40] Sooner or later this was always going to be a problem, what i would like to know without naming characters or corps, just how many have been banned, the impression im getting is a few bans but lots of petitions. Bottom line for me is that you knew that this would happen and seem to have let to much time go by with to little preperation. Any comments from CCP on this?
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:08:00 - [41] Since yesterday afternoon around 16.00 hours gametime, a group of ~25 macro'ers has been emptying belts in : Adia Shabura Nahdoman Nifshed And probably other systems while I was asleep. I woke up, logged on.. Surprise.. they are still at it. Number of petitions from me : THREE What I heard from other ppl petitioning : another 10 filed a report. Oveur, they are still at it. Why doesn't a GM respond to this. Its outrageous. Give the players the means to take this on, a solution was given. Ask the player base what they think about that idea.
TheRev	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:21:00 - [42] I see nothing at all wrong with Qinoly's initial idea.Noobiecorps are used more as hiding places for those with something to fear (be it from scamming,ore-thievery,war,macro-mining etc) than they are used for new players to learn the ropes.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:40:00 - [43] Edited by: Nyphur on 14/11/2005 16:48:32 Originally by: Oveur PunkBuster would help, if everyone was modifying the client. Most people are using a very simple mouse macro. Can Eve not distinguish between genuine mouse movement and something inserted into the mousebuffer? Isn't there some way to gain top level access to the mousebuffer or something? I've left a few ideas strewn about the boards. Here they are: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=247638&page=1#15 - That would probably be the easiest to implement but if the ore were distinguishable from the rubbish rock too easilly, say by contrast or colour, it would be possible to build a program to do it. I think the best option is to keep the veins a similar colour to the normal rock such that the variation in hue and colour across the normal rock and the ore overlap (that way a macro would be confused and mine a lot of normal crap) but they would be instantly recognisable to players since the veins would follow smaller lines. A computer can't readilly detect a vein in rock without using pattern-matching, which isn't viable for macroing in a game since it's incredibly difficult to implement and get right, it's very CPU intensive and the pattern can be tweaked now and then just to screw over anyone who managed to implement it properly. An option to pick a different area of rock would also help. Also, some crazy ideas here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=246448&page=1#16 - Worth a read, I suppose. Anything that makes macroing no longer viable is the key. The trick is to make mining more interactive and enjoyable at the same time. Either system would help that but I'm very much in favour of my first idea up there with the veins in the rock. I do plan to make my own MMO (a fantasy based one) and that will definitely be how I'll be implementing mining. Eve would do well to consider it.
BIRDofPREY	Posted - 2005.11.15 03:06:00 - [44] 1) this needs a bump.. 2) Yesterday, we ID'd a Macro Miner in Shabura. I was amazed when a dozen players from all over domain came running to "exercise some frontier justice" on this creep. I was so plainly obvious that they were macro mining. 5 haulers and 5 mining barges on charcters created within hours of each other. Then they would not respond to convo's or didn't speak english. I sat next to three Omens today, piloted by characters less than 4 days old. All of them were grinding away. I moved up in a HAC, jettisons a single round of hybrid ammo and moved all the ore from their jet can to mine. No response at all... A real player would have been sreaming bloody murder in the local... This guy just kept filling up his jet can, not even noticing me... I destroyed the jet can I created and sent 20k of pyro to the Gods of EVE... If CCP is not careful, EVE is going to go the way of UO... nothing but bots running around ruining the game. I'll do everything I can to prevent this, as I have above. I would think even a warning to the offending players from the right person would have some effect... Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage
Lady Abaris	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:10:00 - [45] How about removing the ability to pilot barges from pilots in newb on npc corps? I know this would effect some genuine players so probably won't pass Oveurs test but worth considering for the greater good I think.
Sethon	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:32:00 - [46] The problem with bouncing people from the NAP corp is that you'll get some wanna-be pirates coming alone, and war decing because "They are macro-miners" When they may have no proof at all. A thought. Why not, rather than NPC corps, have joining a corporation part of your character creation. Corps will have to expound on the Description more, and corps can be organized by category of what they do. A new character then reads the description after finding the corp under the organized list, and decides... THoughts anyone? Seth
10 Bears	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:36:00 - [47] Originally by: Sethon The problem with bouncing people from the NAP corp is that you'll get some wanna-be pirates coming alone, and war decing because "They are macro-miners" When they may have no proof at all. A thought. Why not, rather than NPC corps, have joining a corporation part of your character creation. Corps will have to expound on the Description more, and corps can be organized by category of what they do. A new character then reads the description after finding the corp under the organized list, and decides... THoughts anyone? Seth Bleech! Think of your corp over run with alts, greifer, thieves, and spies... And what happens to the character when you give them the boot... Your 280mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Serpentis Defender, wrecking for 230.4 damage.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:42:00 - [48] I do agree with the idea of entering a short code, or PIN, whenever you jettison a can. It would take 2 seconds. An image comes up on screen, asking you to copy the 'security number' for your jetcan. You enter this 4 digit number, it takes 1 second, and your can pops out. These anti-macro tactics are already used on many websites, as I'm sure we are all aware. This will stop macrominers dead in their tracks, or at most limit them to 1 hour of mining at a time. It will also not impact on other players at all, unless you consider taking two seconds to enter a 4-digit code too much of a hassle. I don't. Two seconds per jetcan? No problem.
Captain Burgers	Posted - 2005.11.15 16:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Qinoly 9 barges, 3 indy's, ferox and moa Stripping whole systems. That's not a macro mine, that's a well organized corp mine.
Captain Burgers	Posted - 2005.11.15 16:37:00 - [50] how about if you've pulled in a set ammount of ore in a set time frame (say at 50,000 ore units for an hour) then a window pops up asking you to put in the characters depicted in an image. If done, you're flagged as accomplishing that and it's not done for say another 2 hours. And to prevent the macro'er from just docking, make it for the hour, not for a constant hour in a belt...
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.16 02:25:00 - [51] Quote: That's not a macro mine, that's a well organized corp mine. Ye sure, and if you bounce them around with a bumpageddon, they don't complain. If you empty their cans into your own can, they don't complain. If you convo them, you don't get an answer ever. Well organised eh ? I know perfectly well how a bigger mining op is run. Those were operated by code.
Transom	Posted - 2005.11.16 02:55:00 - [52] Can somebody explain how eight 3 day old characters, all created at same time, living in same npc corp, can mine in Omen cruisers? I mean is it even possible to be in a cruiser in 3 days? So if a trial account is 14 days that gives this tribe 11 days of cruiser mining? On the other hand I'm pretty sure the barge/ferox/mark v crew working the region is also macroing, I can only guess E-bay is to blame. As Quin says who would sit in their barge and not complain when you bump them around and thieve/blow up their ore? I used to hate ore thieves and now I'm one of them. I feel like Robin Hood when I do it. I took some ore from a can and the guy said no. That was it. Nothing else. Took all his ore from all the belts he was working. He moved on. We do have tools right now. Ore thieving. Bump and grind. Pinning ships to rocks so rats can kill them. None of it is friendly nor very effective. I don't think these help make eve a better place, although we are building a community of macro busters in domain so maybe that is good.
Transom	Posted - 2005.11.16 03:11:00 - [53] Edited by: Transom on 16/11/2005 03:13:40 Edited by: Transom on 16/11/2005 03:13:15 hahahahaha pin them poke them bump them theive them hahaha
Transom	Posted - 2005.11.16 03:15:00 - [54] Sorry Oveur but I have to disagree. What better way to make the miners/industrials make friends with pvpers than to force the miners and builders into real corps? Doesn't that build the community? If a miner corp teams up with a PvP corp what sort of pirates are going after them? Organized ones, not sociopath middle schoolers. Also, btw, some of those pirate corps have npc miners suppling them too... I am not sure when the NPC boot should come but come it should. Do I hear 3 months or 5 mil sp? I also like the idea that trial accounts be limited to frigs. 3 day old players mining in cruisers just can't be possible. That said I would note I was a pretty capable miner with my 2 miner II merlin back when I was training learning skills. Maybe no tech 2 equipment should be used by trial players either.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.16 03:34:00 - [55] a) limit trial accoutns to frigates b) allow players to remain in a newbie corp for 1 month .... after which time each additional month they play eve up to 6 months where it peters out add a 15% tax on missions and rat kills 2nd month 15% corp tax 3rd month 30% corp tax 4th month 45% corp tax 5th month 60% corp tax 6th month 75% corp tax Now for players being kicked out of established corps or simply leaving for another corp the same above could apply this would force all players into at least training level 1 of corparation skills and creating their own corp (im sure a lot of little 1 man corps could be easy enough) Heck even alt spys and alt scouts could be put into another corp i mean it only costs 1.5 million to create a corp and after that its basically free if u dont have any offices (players can more than afford that after 1 month but the NPC tax wouldnt start to bite until after 3 months) Just some ideas to play with and then een if the MMs had their own corp a war dec could be forthcoming
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.17 22:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Galifardeua Originally by: TotensBurntCorpse 3) limit the trial account to 7 days (ie you have to remake the character every 7 days to continue your "trial" aka macro freebie account) This would stop people from joining. A week is too little fo some people to try the game. I would disagree as most ppl that i run into on the noob channel where one of my characters is located finds for the most part players love or hate eve within 2-3 days. I have a character in a noob corp since it was created which is almost a year now. This character is not an alt but an account that i play daily on one of my computers, so its not a random view i have found this since the character was created. 14 days is when ppl whine about actually having to PAY to PLAY. Well within 7 days they know if they want to continue or not. Actually within the 7 days they realize that they have screwed up thier attributes to the point of trashing the character and remaking them against all the advice myself and others give them in the noob channel. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.17 22:18:00 - [57] Originally by: Captain Burgers Originally by: Qinoly 9 barges, 3 indy's, ferox and moa Stripping whole systems. That's not a macro mine, that's a well organized corp mine. No not when all the "tells" highlight them as macros. Dont forget macroing doesnt mean all ships are macros, i mean there is no macro for hauling that i am aware of, and in less than 0.9 u need someone to fly cap. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Binary Mind	Posted - 2005.11.18 12:25:00 - [58] Edited by: Binary Mind on 18/11/2005 12:26:01 perhaps banning isn't enough to make macro users fear... can't you add "and we'll come to you and brake your legs" to the EULA? that's free holidays for you CCP guys
Maltus	Posted - 2005.11.19 05:47:00 - [59] What really burns me is that after over a year of not playing macro miners is still an issue when the solution is very simple and I'll explain how to get around it. Remove the option to play in window mode and as soon as the play hits alt tab to switch to another program force a kill on the process in this case eve.exe This will prevent them from creating the macros. The only thing these macroers are doing is making it very hard for new people to start out. It's taking alot of searching for ore these days I go to one belt and it's not just one type of ore gone but all the ore is gone then I go to another belt and it's gone. So I mustered up about 1 mil got me destroyer with little skills and went to a .7 system well I was lucky to even get to mine 1st all those dam secure containers next the rats keep pestering me well obviously they are just to strong I'm setup to mine not fight. Well the only thing these macro miners are doing is in the end hurting new potential players. Trust me it's very discouraging to only be able to make about 100k in about 1hr because the greedy need to cheat.
Aeaus	Posted - 2005.11.19 07:11:00 - [60] Right, and for people like me that run two accounts on one machine (two monitors) and do other work while playing eve; well I'd be screwed then, no? Best Solution: Dedicated anti-macro GM group. Dedicated macro petition category. Programming anti-macro programs are a waste of time; a GM can do the job much more effectively.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.11.19 09:10:00 - [61] Well, ultimately, so long as a machine can do a task better than a human mind, the insult to humanity will prompt these kinds of responses. You have to treat the disease rather than the symptoms. As for ebaying, the best response for CCP to adopt is precise callous disregard. If a scam occurs, as with playtime cards/isk or other money related matters such as character transfers, CCP should double the penalty on the victim, and not harm the scammer at all. Then they should make the action a public affair as a warning to others, and silence all critics permanently. CCP punishing the sellers just increase the lucrative aspect. Punishing the buyers and rewarding malicious activity will put the sellers out of business. I learned this from observing institutions dealing with pharmaceuticals legislation. If they don't do this, they will just keep wasting valuable manpower on the problems. Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible."
Bravlok	Posted - 2005.11.20 02:59:00 - [62] One easy way is that those ships don't move for hours at a time. Let's be honest here who mines with haulers for hrs on in I get board waiting 48 minutes for my GSC to get full and to go fetch my hauler. There has to be an easy way to notice that person x is in y hauler mining x astroid belt and has been there for x hrs. If i'm not mistaken this database is ran on MS SQL well I've worked with SQL for 7 yrs and I was always able to find each piece of data. The data look up can even be done on one of the backups this would give them a list of miners using x ship in x belt. Now with this they just created a list with this list they could send a message to each and everyone. Saying if you do not reply to this list in the next 5 minutes you will be considered to have a macro running. And now I'm not just talking about an eve mail but a message that apears on the screen and stays there until they click on it to go away. The obvious ones would repeaters who go to the same belt each night every night or those that rotate which belt they go to. This is a more technical solution and I think it can be done. The beauty of this is that it can be done off line without having to interfer with the live server. One thing that you always try to do when running live is find a solution that can be tested offline that will show results without affecting the end user.
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2005.11.20 10:39:00 - [63] Originally by: Bravlok One easy way is that those ships don't move for hours at a time. Let's be honest here who mines with haulers for hrs on in I get board waiting 48 minutes for my GSC to get full and to go fetch my hauler. There has to be an easy way to notice that person x is in y hauler mining x astroid belt and has been there for x hrs. If i'm not mistaken this database is ran on MS SQL well I've worked with SQL for 7 yrs and I was always able to find each piece of data. The data look up can even be done on one of the backups this would give them a list of miners using x ship in x belt. Now with this they just created a list with this list they could send a message to each and everyone. Saying if you do not reply to this list in the next 5 minutes you will be considered to have a macro running. And now I'm not just talking about an eve mail but a message that apears on the screen and stays there until they click on it to go away. The obvious ones would repeaters who go to the same belt each night every night or those that rotate which belt they go to. This is a more technical solution and I think it can be done. The beauty of this is that it can be done off line without having to interfer with the live server. One thing that you always try to do when running live is find a solution that can be tested offline that will show results without affecting the end user. People who AFK mine mine for hours, that's who. Also no Punkbuster, that's a horrible idea. Punkbuster bans as many innocent people as it does actual cheaters, and also bans you if you change your computer up too much. Not to mention it's a drag on your CPU time and RAM and connection, which is a rather big thing with an MMORPG.
Lord Waxduck	Posted - 2005.11.20 11:21:00 - [64] there is an easyer way to stop macro miners,,, Just make a NPC Battlecruiser/Battleship spawn in all lvls of empire systems, Except 1.0 where only ships upto cruisers can mine, no barges or BC and above. so Noobs can mine in safety, They wont leave the barges and transports allone when there is the sort of fire power in system ,,, most hardcore miners have cover fire when mineing to take the heat of them to let them out of belts
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.20 19:41:00 - [65] Quote: Just make a NPC Battlecruiser/Battleship spawn in all lvls of empire systems So I wouldn't be able anymore to take my barge and mine in 0.6 because you want a BS spawn to blow me up ? And about cover fire, yes sure in 0.0 miners have cover fire.. but not 0.5 - 0.8 That won't work. I wouldn't be mining anymore but would hunt battleships in empire. Why would anyone go to 0.0 for hunting those ? You need to think that one over once more.
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.20 19:45:00 - [66] Quote: One easy way is that those ships don't move for hours at a time. Let's be honest here who mines with haulers for hrs on in I get board waiting 48 minutes for my GSC to get full and to go fetch my hauler I sit in a single belt for hours to mine it all out. A can fills up in like 9 minutes with 3 barges on it. A 4th corpmate runs up and down to station. Now what ?
Firstname Lastname	Posted - 2005.11.21 03:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Qinoly Quote: secondly, 1.0-0.9 is where almost all the macros are now, simply because of the lack of rats Not true, due to lack of roids in those systems, they have moved to at least Domain's 0.6 systems. 9 barges, 3 indy's, ferox and moa Stripping whole systems. Some of you will have seen this guy around. Some of my corpmates saw one of these down in Ebasez, and one of them had ejected from his Ferox, so they took it XD I think a solution to most of the macro miners would be to make highsec (.9 and 1.0) roids be instapopped by barge stripminers, and have a very small amount of ore before they pop (so newbie frig miners could still mine fine but larger ships would have to move constantly, making macros much less viable) and make ice lowsec/0.0 only (you can't put POSes in highsec, why should you be able to get the fuel there?)
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.21 18:07:00 - [68] Originally by: Maltus What really burns me is that after over a year of not playing macro miners is still an issue when the solution is very simple and I'll explain how to get around it. Remove the option to play in window mode and as soon as the play hits alt tab to switch to another program force a kill on the process in this case eve.exe This will prevent them from creating the macros. I play 3 clients on two computers simultaneously (all active accounts). On one computer I have to use windows, to run 2 clients. On the other I have to use windows to run one client and excel for my spreadsheets. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.21 18:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Lygos Well, ultimately, so long as a machine can do a task better than a human mind, the insult to humanity will prompt these kinds of responses. You have to treat the disease rather than the symptoms. As for ebaying, the best response for CCP to adopt is precise callous disregard. If a scam occurs, as with playtime cards/isk or other money related matters such as character transfers, CCP should double the penalty on the victim, and not harm the scammer at all. Then they should make the action a public affair as a warning to others, and silence all critics permanently. CCP punishing the sellers just increase the lucrative aspect. Punishing the buyers and rewarding malicious activity will put the sellers out of business. I learned this from observing institutions dealing with pharmaceuticals legislation. If they don't do this, they will just keep wasting valuable manpower on the problems. I would have to agree wholeheartedly here. If you find the seller ban the buyer. Its NOT an accident. HOWEVER it is a way to ban honest players by depostiting cash from a tainted player into an honest players account thus making the honest player a scum bag by default. BUT if the money is given up willingly by the player to a black hole CCP account then all is good i guess. Yes BAN THE BUYER ! (if they dont willingly send the isks or minerals to a CCP black hole account) TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.21 18:17:00 - [70] I can only assume that CCP can track player to player interactions. IF 1) a list of macros is sent by petition to CCP GMs 2) the macro is confirmed 3) trades to ALL parties are traced 4) Ban the macro 5) Ban the intermediaries 6) Ban the BUYERS You cannot stop macros (this thread shows how little can be done, as we the players are giving up the scum suckers but as we have seen CCP cannot react fast enough). If CCP can trace player to player interactions then they should Ban who ever gets either 1) the ore 2) the minerals 3) the isks 4) the escrow (this would be difficult to impliment unless escrowed to named players or corps) The final way to get around this would be to have the pick up person "steal" the ore to create a clean slate (doable but requires some sneakiness and alot of patience). In the end, CCP can the GMs set player status to -10.0 for macros that are shown to be marcos so we can kill them forth with??????? PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Binary Mind	Posted - 2005.11.22 09:16:00 - [71] you cannot ban the buyers... they don't know if it was macroed or not (unless they buy on ebay) and for the rest it's all in the EULA, I'm sure banning someone for using macros is the highlight of the day of a GM. fact is: - you cannot stop them directly. - you cannot do control mechanisms if you're really on your PC, they will find a way around. those control mechanisms are just programs just like macros. - you cannot and will never be able to declare war on noob corps, too many innocent victims. - you cannot restrict high-sec space asteroid fields to a specific kind of ships. Barges are paperbags, they aren't made to mine in low-sec space. - closing eve on multitasking won't solve anything. all you can do is use them, use the macrominers as pets... get an indy and follow them, get their ores, make them work for you.
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2005.11.22 11:42:00 - [72] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/11/2005 11:42:26 How about not allowing people in NPC corps to deploy jet cans? If macroers could only mine into their hold anymore, macromining would become a LOT less efficient I guess, and most normal players would be pretty much unaffected by that change. And if the macroers go into a player corp to do it properly, they can be declared war upon and the players can solve the issue themselves.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2005.11.22 12:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/11/2005 11:42:26 How about not allowing people in NPC corps to deploy jet cans? If macroers could only mine into their hold anymore, macromining would become a LOT less efficient I guess, and most normal players would be pretty much unaffected by that change. And if the macroers go into a player corp to do it properly, they can be declared war upon and the players can solve the issue themselves. Do you know, I actually really like this idea... would encourage players into 'proper' corporations too. Though as I said before, the whole thing could be easily resolved by copying a 4-digit 'security code' before your ship pops out a jetcan. Also, make jetcans last 30 minutes rather than an hour. Its only a few extra clicks for 'real players', and makes macromining pretty much impossible.
Qinoly	Posted - 2005.11.22 12:13:00 - [74] Quote: - you cannot and will never be able to declare war on noob corps, too many innocent victims. Where was that said ? I suggest you read the starter post.
Lorelei Lee	Posted - 2005.11.22 12:52:00 - [75] 1. Binary got it right. Macrominers are difficult to defeat. Another point: most macrominers use trial accounts, so even if GMs spent all their time banning them, it would be next to useless because there is really nothing to ban. The only effective way to make them go away is to make their activity unprofitable. So, everybody, join the Macromining channel and watch for reports of activity in your area. (Also, report confirmed macrominers as you find them, especially if they are outputting more ore than you can haul off by yourself.)
Lorelei Lee	Posted - 2005.11.22 13:11:00 - [76] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/11/2005 11:42:26 How about not allowing people in NPC corps to deploy jet cans? If macroers could only mine into their hold anymore, macromining would become a LOT less efficient I guess, and most normal players would be pretty much unaffected by that change. And if the macroers go into a player corp to do it properly, they can be declared war upon and the players can solve the issue themselves. May I respectfully suggest that this would screw legitimate miners in NPC corps rather badly? In general, when you suggest changes that mess with NPC corps, please remember that besides macrominers, newbies, and griefers, NPC corps are also home to longterm solo players and genuine carebears. If you must pick a class of users to hobble, consider trial accounts as a target instead. Here's why: - When GMs find a paying user macromining, they can confiscate his remaining play time and ban his credit card from ever registering again. - When GMs find a trial user macromining, they can ban the account. The user will just make another one. (By the way, this also applies to you vigilante types killing them -- they really have nothing to lose by being killed, besides a couple hours of mining time.) GMs trying to keep up with trial account macrominers will effectively be playing whack-a-mole forever. But they just might be able to keep up with the paid accounts.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2005.11.22 14:54:00 - [77] Edited by: Butter Dog on 22/11/2005 14:56:12 sigh It IS easy to stop macrominers. Here is how. 1 - limit trial account to frigates (even more reason to upgrade to full account, and you can see all the game dynamics in a frigate so can't see why not) 2 - a simple and short security code to copy before a jetcan pops out, as I outlined a few posts above 3 - reduce jetcan life to 30 minutes CCP - is there any good reason why this cannot happen?
Mallikanth	Posted - 2005.11.22 15:12:00 - [78] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 22/11/2005 14:56:12 sigh It IS easy to stop macrominers. Here is how. 1 - limit trial account to frigates (even more reason to upgrade to full account, and you can see all the game dynamics in a frigate so can't see why not) 2 - a simple and short security code to copy before a jetcan pops out, as I outlined a few posts above 3 - reduce jetcan life to 30 minutes CCP - is there any good reason why this cannot happen? Ohhhh I always thought I could resist posting in reply to one of these topics But I like this Idea - Respect! Uber Mining lvl5 in Training
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.22 18:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Binary Mind you cannot ban the buyers... they don't know if it was macroed or not (unless they buy on ebay) and for the rest it's all in the EULA, I'm sure banning someone for using macros is the highlight of the day of a GM. fact is: - you cannot stop them directly. - you cannot do control mechanisms if you're really on your PC, they will find a way around. those control mechanisms are just programs just like macros. - you cannot and will never be able to declare war on noob corps, too many innocent victims. - you cannot restrict high-sec space asteroid fields to a specific kind of ships. Barges are paperbags, they aren't made to mine in low-sec space. - closing eve on multitasking won't solve anything. all you can do is use them, use the macrominers as pets... get an indy and follow them, get their ores, make them work for you. You can ban buyers who do something overt like have 200mil isks show up in thier account from a known suspect account. I think all you have to do is find a few ban them then publically flog them for the rest of the community to "point out" what Ebay or other purchases mean. I suggested earlier in this thread about either limiting the time of a trial account to 7 days or so OR limit the ships you can fly to frigates. I dont understand why a TRIAL account is unlimited in what you can learn to do for the character. Do you need to fly a procurer to trial mining? Do you need to fly an industrial to trial trading or hauling? I mean really if they want you to TRIAL an account why not have an unlimited TRIAL server and get rid of the TRIAL accounts from tranq totally ?????? Much like the test server. Players get to do what they want. No Trial account issues. Macros have to PAY TO PLAY on tranq. Transfer of isks or ingame items between servers is not possible. POOF trial account macros GONE. Next are the paid account macros. For those since the account is PAID for 30 days, once we the player base petiton macros and CCP flags them (I prefer set em to -10.0 concd status and let us just gank em to death). Quite soon macros begin to see that... 1) paid accounts are failing due to gankage 2) the player base is ratting them out as soon as found 3) known macros can have thier accounts traced and intermediaries and buyers can be "scrutanized". For a trial account server since the chat server is universal why not link noob corp chats between a trial server and tranq so LEGITIMATE trial players can at least talk to the actual PAY TO PLAY npc corp players. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Galifardeua	Posted - 2005.11.22 22:02:00 - [80] Originally by: TotensBurntCorpse I suggested earlier in this thread about either limiting the time of a trial account to 7 days or so OR limit the ships you can fly to frigates. I dont understand why a TRIAL account is unlimited in what you can learn to do for the character. Do you need to fly a procurer to trial mining? Do you need to fly an industrial to trial trading or hauling? I mean really if they want you to TRIAL an account why not have an unlimited TRIAL server and get rid of the TRIAL accounts from tranq totally ?????? Much like the test server. Trial server is a very bad idea. In a single player game you can get an idea of the game with a demo. But with a MMORPG you need to know how does the playerbase play. You cannot trully imagine that with only forums and such. And about the limitations. My experience as a programmer is that limiting things is not so easy. But whatever. We'll see what happens.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.23 00:30:00 - [81] if the noob corp chat is shared between a trial server and the pay to play server then cross talk can occur for the trial ppl. in a trial window they can interact with other players and get a good gist for the game. the trial server could be a very scaled down version of the eve universe such as only the forge region for example. up to CCP of course but makes sense to me. they already run one shard for tranq and another for the testing server as it is now. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Binary Mind	Posted - 2005.11.23 15:06:00 - [82] noob players wanna see corps with big ships. And you cannot punish all trial accounts just because of the trial-account-macrominers. That like slapping every child on this world just because one of them ate your chokolate
Sinari Galdrin	Posted - 2005.11.23 16:45:00 - [83] I don't like the ideas people have suggested of being limited in the NPC corps for a certain time or skill points. I've been playing for about 2 weeks now, and currently have no intention of joining a player corp. I'm only a 'light' player, so I'm still getting the hang of things, doing missions etc. I can see this going on for at least several more weeks before I decide what I want to do, and what sort of corp I want to join (or whether I want to start my own with a couple of friends, etc) Despite what people have said, it's actually quite easy to detect macroers if players are aware of the possibility. Just have a GM ask them a simple question. One MMORPG I've played had an automatic system which asked a simple addition question (eg 'what is 164+35?'), and you had 5 minutes to reply with the right answer. If you go it wrong, it asked you again a bit later. I think if you got it wrong three times in a row something nasty happened to you. It was a bit annoying, but given that it made macroing much harder (if not impossible) it was worth it. In Eve, what could happen could be: - you have an 'AFK' command. Once you do this you can leave for a 'comfort break' without being challenged. Once a mouse or keyboard command is entered again, the AFK status is removed - In a station you are 'safe' - Elsewhere, if someone suspects you of macroing, they can raise a 'macroing petition'. This causes the system to ask you a question which has a fixed answer (eg a sum, or a 'repeat this' command). If you get this wrong several times in a row, or don't answer, then your security level drops by 2 (or something) (or, maybe you get 'instawarped' to a random place in space). Have a limit so that 'macroing petitions' against you can only be raised per hour or so, to stop people using them to hassle other players. (You might also want certain criteria to allow this sort of petition to be raised, eg not warping within 1 hour or something, or maybe you can have a 'macroing petition' raised if you're mining continually for hours) (Actually, thinking about it, you could randomly warp a suspect who doesn't respond somewhere into the middle of 'nothing', then, if they haven't warped back within 10 minutes, be really nasty, like lower their security rating)
Lorelei Lee	Posted - 2005.11.25 06:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Binary Mind noob players wanna see corps with big ships. And you cannot punish all trial accounts just because of the trial-account-macrominers. That like slapping every child on this world just because one of them ate your chokolate I disagree. Macrominers keep growing in numbers, and their code gets smarter. They are a swarm of locusts -- if they are allowed free reign, they will run the game into the ground and move on to the next one. Your analogy doesn't quite work. Maybe it would apply if on this world every tenth child was a bona fide spawn of satan, and our economy was based on chocolate. So let's get rid of them before one of them passes the Turing test -- that would be quite embarrassing.
Yukon Cornelius	Posted - 2005.11.25 06:37:00 - [85] There is no precedent, in any online game in the history of computing, for effectively curbing macro exploiters. It cannot be done. Yeah, some can be caught and banned, and they will simply buy new accounts and become stealthier. In many profound ways, it is counterproductive to the game operators themselves to mass ban exploiters. You waste your time worrying about them. Nick them when you can, and just play your game.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.11.25 18:38:00 - [86] I think if the GMs observed macros then set them as -10.0 sec upon reboot WE will solve the macro problem. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Lorelei Lee	Posted - 2005.11.26 11:15:00 - [87] Originally by: TotensBurntCorpse I think if the GMs observed macros then set them as -10.0 sec upon reboot WE will solve the macro problem. Once a GM identifies a macrominer with enough certainty to do something nasty to him, the big red Ban button is as easy a solution as any other. It's finding them and proving that they are macrominers that's the hard part.
Scyrdein	Posted - 2005.11.26 11:42:00 - [88] Originally by: Firstname Lastname I think a solution to most of the macro miners would be to make highsec (.9 and 1.0) roids be instapopped by barge stripminers, and have a very small amount of ore before they pop (so newbie frig miners could still mine fine but larger ships would have to move constantly, making macros much less viable) and make ice lowsec/0.0 only (you can't put POSes in highsec, why should you be able to get the fuel there?) Yeah! I absolutely agree. All the ore located in 0.5-1.0 can be also found in lowsec systems. So if you want to mine go to loew sec. As for noobs, there is deadspace trainig complex with a pair of asteroids there :)
Soldier 001	Posted - 2005.11.26 13:00:00 - [89] Originally by: Scyrdein Originally by: Firstname Lastname I think a solution to most of the macro miners would be to make highsec (.9 and 1.0) roids be instapopped by barge stripminers, and have a very small amount of ore before they pop (so newbie frig miners could still mine fine but larger ships would have to move constantly, making macros much less viable) and make ice lowsec/0.0 only (you can't put POSes in highsec, why should you be able to get the fuel there?) Yeah! I absolutely agree. All the ore located in 0.5-1.0 can be also found in lowsec systems. So if you want to mine go to loew sec. As for noobs, there is deadspace trainig complex with a pair of asteroids there :) Yeah in the mean time why not make it so noobs can't do lvl 2 missions for two weeks. What you wrote is as insanse as what I did. You're forgetting that macro'ers use frigates and destroyers. I've only ever seen one macro miner in a cruiser and that still isn't filtered out.
Scyrdein	Posted - 2005.11.26 13:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Soldier 001 Yeah in the mean time why not make it so noobs can't do lvl 2 missions for two weeks. What you wrote is as insanse as what I did. You're forgetting that macro'ers use frigates and destroyers. I've only ever seen one macro miner in a cruiser and that still isn't filtered out. Got better idea? :)
Allleria Sorana	Posted - 2005.12.02 12:51:00 - [91] Originally by: Maltus Remove the option to play in window mode and as soon as the play hits alt tab to switch to another program force a kill on the process in this case eve.exe Then what do I do while making 10+ jumps in high-sec? And when I want to change my music, as EvE and WMP coupled with nVidia don't like each other and I can't use my keyboard controls on any other player? If the ingame browser was better, and I didn't slip and hit the windows key when typing so often... one of the best things about EvE is that it doesn't bug up when you alt-tab out and go browse or whatever you do to relieve courier boredom.
Allleria Sorana	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:03:00 - [92] I'm tempted to fly out, check their info, observe, if they look like macroers, bump them once. Don't complain? Bump them outta range. Still don't complain? Take a piece of ore. Still nothing? Take it all and go. Its like a mission with the ore as a reward. "Check: Tfftrp=macrominer" :P Although 8 barges make a really pretty laser show when you're wandering through them spying at their cans.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Soldier 001 Yeah in the mean time why not make it so noobs can't do lvl 2 missions for two weeks. What you wrote is as insanse as what I did. You're forgetting that macro'ers use frigates and destroyers. I've only ever seen one macro miner in a cruiser and that still isn't filtered out. I have seen macros in... - procurers - ospreys - armageddons - frigates To get to the BS levels means they have NOT been banned or caught for quite some time. The player base is in the CRIME AND PUNISHMENT forums started a MACROKILLER program. I for one am thinking of joining. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:09:00 - [94] Originally by: Allleria Sorana I'm tempted to fly out, check their info, observe, if they look like macroers, bump them once. Don't complain? Bump them outta range. Still don't complain? Take a piece of ore. Still nothing? Take it all and go. Its like a mission with the ore as a reward. "Check: Tfftrp=macrominer" :P Although 8 barges make a really pretty laser show when you're wandering through them spying at their cans. I fly up now and openly steal their ore and wait for a response. Typically you would expect "hey give us our ore back" from several of the "players" simultaneously. This I NEVER get. Not even one complaint, so I broad cast to the channel who they are then petition them. Dont get me wrong I think ore thieves are scum but I will openly and blatantly rip off macros and report them. Unfortunately I see the same ones back day after day even after the petition is acknowledged by CCP GMs. I think the macrokiller thread in the crime and punishment forums is a viable way for us the playerbase to help deal with is overt game cheat. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Binary Mind	Posted - 2005.12.02 13:20:00 - [95] that's how I do it... keep up the good work a) move their ores to one of your cans b) wait a bit for reply c) write a message that you'll take the ores if they don't reply in local d) wait a bit for reply e) report them f) follow them and take whatever you can get

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