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Moving Jita! Lets Do The Impossible!

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Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 14:18:00 - [1] - Quote Is it possible to write eve history? To move the Hub of Jita? I know it is insane, basically needless and probably not possible. So... isn`t that a lovely challenge? For me as trader it is a great long term goal! How to succeed: 1. get as good as Jita: - establish choice of products as good as Jita in new hub in seeding it with all items (more than 8500) 2. get Jita worse: - compete with Jita buy orders so Jita sell orders run out of supplies. - perform buyouts on slow producing Jita sell orders result: Customers will find their needs better satisfied at the new hub and move there as standard choice. Traders will follow customers. In this final stage it will be a battle between Jita traditionalist traders and the new hub traders. The most persistent will win the future center of New Eden. This cant be done alone, but there is no need to form a corporation or alliance. Traders who like this endeavor would share a common goal, but still go there on an individual path. Its just a choice where to trade. If several traders make this choice it can have the required impact. They would be part of a change in Eve, which affects almost every player (who hasnt been to Jita?) I dont expect this to develop fast. It will probably take months or years to establish a new hub. So where should be the new hub? -it should be in Forge and close to Jita, so customers of Jita can get attracted to it while browsing the market (they will see the new orders in market) -it should be placed in the center of New Eden with short routes to other trade hubs -it should have access to vast manufacturing facilities -it should have a nice scenery worthy of a galatic center -it has to have a 50% base refinery -a medical service would be great -close to lowsec (capital market) would be nice -different regions closeby Suggestions are welcome! My research so far favors: New Caldari II (Matias) ...Station - it is in Forge 1 Jump from Jita. - it has an awesome scenery, big temperate planet in background named Matias - 18 Manufacture Stations (x50 Slots) in same region within 1 Jump (Jita has 15) - hubs of Amarr, Dodixie and Rens are same distance as Jita - Forge, Citadel and Lonetrek within 1 Jump (same as Jita) - 50% Refinery - Traffic jam lets people strand there regulary, so there are already customers - since Gallente took old Caldari Homeworld, New Caldari is their main system. Drawbacks: - no medical - no close lowsec If you know of a better place, feel free to post it. Let me know your ideas!
Novia Ephrael Aquila Systems 1	Posted - 2013.06.09 14:29:00 - [2] - Quote Seems a bit strange to try to move Jita one jump. Why not aim to set it up on the other side of the universe? Or just expand one of the other current trade hubs that are far away.
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 14:33:00 - [3] - Quote Novia Ephrael wrote: Seems a bit strange to try to move Jita one jump. Why not aim to set it up on the other side of the universe? Or just expand one of the other current trade hubs that are far away. Because customers of Jita will not notice an improvement of a hub outside forge. They just cant see the orders. So they will stay in Jita forever.
Salmash Viziam Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.06.09 14:54:00 - [4] - Quote just make Amarr better than jita :) Niajra will be fun :) (cant spell the name, but we all know the system)
Job Valador Super Moose Defence Force 63	Posted - 2013.06.09 16:37:00 - [5] - Quote want too really impress me? successfully make and enforce (player police) a trade hub in low sec. Basically moving Jita one jump over seems too simple [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img836/7059/c00286794da9496e2b391.jpg[/IMG] Rule 34 ^
Samroski Games Inc. The Night Crew Alliance 246	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:35:00 - [6] - Quote Yes, the idea is totally insane. As a challenge, it is definitely appealing. To compete with Jita, the hub needs to be in Forge, otherwise might as well buff Amarr or one of the other hubs. A site which is closer to the other hubs than Jita may be another requirement. Otherwise New Caldari seems ok to me, though the location needs to be discussed thoroughly. If the hub is not in Forge, a number of possibilities open up, though it would again need to be in Caldari space to compete with Jita, otherwise it'll become like any other minor hub. I pledge 20b towards this project, if it ever gets off the ground. Probably maintain orders for a lot more. Just a drop in the ocean that you'll require to make your goal a reality :) Any colour you like.
Jori McKie Friends Of Harassment 74	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:53:00 - [7] - Quote Location matters but your main goal is to get T1 and T2 Ship producer onboard, lots of them. When you established the ship market get some T2 module producer to follow. Only then the new hub will have a chance. Btw. Itamo is the factory system for Jita.
Caleb Ayrania TarNec Invisible Exchequer 159	Posted - 2013.06.09 17:53:00 - [8] - Quote These threads are usually ending up in discussions of emergent and swarm behavior. You can not compete with Jita as long as we have pseudo-communism from npc and game features. We need a boost to contracts and market orders for traders, and a pricce dynamic broker fee and tax pricing. The problem with Jita is that even though Office rent is high everything else npc wise cost the same. Also pop into the lounge if you want this discussion its already in several old threads.
Dasola Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire 196	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:18:00 - [9] - Quote Last time major trade hub moved it took no less then hand of God to make it happen in first place (CCP removed few critical gates).. Personally if i would take endeavor like this, i would make it other side of galaxy then jita. Who cares if jita bots wont see it.. Good luck on your endeavor. Should be doable, its just the usual how to do it... We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:40:00 - [10] - Quote Caleb Ayrania wrote: You can not compete with Jita as long as we have pseudo-communism from npc and game features. We need a boost to contracts and market orders for traders, and a pricce dynamic broker fee and tax pricing. The problem with Jita is that even though Office rent is high everything else npc wise cost the same. Not sure what you mean. Are you referring to NPC buy and sell orders? Are they concentrated in Jita? To my knowledge they are the minority of items and should only have a minor impact. And to my experience many NPC orders are missing in Jita. Correct me if im wrong. Jita has no NPC buy orders for sleeper components to mention one field. What do you mean with price dynamic broker fee? Its in % now isnt it? Whats the drawback in that? Caleb Ayrania wrote: Also pop into the lounge if you want this discussion its already in several old threads. is "the lounge" a chat channel? Where do I find it? Do you have some links to old threads?
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:43:00 - [11] - Quote Dasola wrote: Personally if i would take endeavor like this, i would make it other side of galaxy then jita. Who cares if jita bots wont see it.. Its about the customers who have to see it. Not bots. And it has to be in the center so people from all the universe can reach it.
voetius L V B Industries STELLAR CONSTELLATION 43	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:57:00 - [12] - Quote the lounge is a chat channel : scc-lounge https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220273&find=unread "the center" is Kaap btw but it may not have the medical etc, haven't really looked.
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:27:00 - [13] - Quote Samroski wrote: A site which is closer to the other hubs than Jita may be another requirement. That would be benefitial yes. But I didnt see a suitable station in that direction yet. The ones I checked did have significantly less manufacturing facilities than jita. Tell me if you find a good candidate. One more consideration might be the security status. Im not familiar with high sec ganks but I think you have less time to gank in a 1.0 system than in 0.5. Samroski wrote: If the hub is not in Forge, a number of possibilities open up, though it would again need to be in Caldari space to compete with Jita, otherwise it'll become like any other minor hub. I agree. The Caldari mission runners should not have a too great distance to the new hub, as they are a lot of customers. Samroski wrote: I pledge 20b towards this project, if it ever gets off the ground. Probably maintain orders for a lot more. Just a drop in the ocean that you'll require to make your goal a reality :) awesome! thx voetius I will check the area around Kaap
Grandma Squirel Squirel Enterprises 4	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:27:00 - [14] - Quote I don't see how your buy order plan is going to work. Your going to crash the margin to avoid 0.01 isk games, and export anything you manage to get to your new hub? Even if the 0.01 iskers don't immediately jump in again, your plan is that this will cause the market to dry up. But that will lead to higher sell order prices, which will then create margin for the 0.01iskers to start buying against. Meanwhile, as manufacturers start to notice the price effect of your manipulation, they will ramp up production, and start flooding Jita with more product... As mentioned by others, only intervention by CCP could overcome the enormous inertia of Jita being market superhub. Just deleting or adding gates wouldn't even do it at this point, you would need to adjust either the tax rate, or the broker fees such that there was a real economic penalty for using Jita.
Rual Storge Caldari Provisions Caldari State 17	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:28:00 - [15] - Quote You can only manage to pull this off by pricefixing the buy and sell orders, thats allooooot of isk!
Cheekbone Trader Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:34:00 - [16] - Quote Setting up a new trade hub next door to Jita may not be feasible, but we can definitely turn smaller trade hubs into large ones. Palas, for example.
Skydell Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums 546	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:41:00 - [17] - Quote The trouble is, I've watched hubs die. Oursulaert, Yulai. Ideally we would leave Jita be and have more spread out Hub traffic. Eve is big enough we shouldn't be able to function with a single hub but here we are.
Gretkong Tower Trade Consortium 1	Posted - 2013.06.09 21:58:00 - [18] - Quote I'm on board.
Zappity Kurved Space 115	Posted - 2013.06.09 22:03:00 - [19] - Quote Rual Storge wrote: You can only manage to pull this off by pricefixing the buy and sell orders, thats allooooot of isk! You would not have to fix all items. As long as you were initially selling most common items for prices comparable with Jita you could fix a few (well, a few hundred) key items that were hard to transport. Think ship hulls. What just happened with Caracal prices is informative. Get a list of major alliance doctrines and start there. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.")
The Greenmachine Greenmachine Green's Bicycle Shop 11	Posted - 2013.06.10 00:38:00 - [20] - Quote I've thought about doing something like this myself but I thought at coming at it from a different angle. What if a group of people was large enough to fill up say 500 slots in jita with just alts forcing people to start looking to go somewhere else because they simply cannot get in. This, along with the combination of your idea of either setting up a brand new hub or making Amarr or something the new main trade hub, could be possible.
Grandma Squirel Squirel Enterprises 4	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:06:00 - [21] - Quote The Greenmachine Greenmachine wrote: I've thought about doing something like this myself but I thought at coming at it from a different angle. What if a group of people was large enough to fill up say 500 slots in jita with just alts forcing people to start looking to go somewhere else because they simply cannot get in. This, along with the combination of your idea of either setting up a brand new hub or making Amarr or something the new main trade hub, could be possible. CCP has said that docked players don't contribute much to the load. They already account for idle players when adjusting the cap, and so they would just up the cap by the new number of idle players.
The Greenmachine Greenmachine Green's Bicycle Shop 11	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:09:00 - [22] - Quote Grandma Squirel wrote: The Greenmachine Greenmachine wrote: I've thought about doing something like this myself but I thought at coming at it from a different angle. What if a group of people was large enough to fill up say 500 slots in jita with just alts forcing people to start looking to go somewhere else because they simply cannot get in. This, along with the combination of your idea of either setting up a brand new hub or making Amarr or something the new main trade hub, could be possible. CCP has said that docked players don't contribute much to the load. They already account for idle players when adjusting the cap, and so they would just up the cap by the new number of idle players. who said anything about being docked? why not clog up jita undock while we are at it too better yet, what if we made this some kind of player event like flight of a thousand rifters where we purposely fill up jita with not only hundreds of people working together for this event but also making TiDi the lowest % causing all the people trying to go about their normal business to stop and think about what the hell is going on.
Aliventi Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 99	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:42:00 - [23] - Quote The issue is that it is the defacto trade hub. If you move the main market hub to another system then all the Jita traffic will follow. Same issue, different system. The only solution that will work is CCP upgrading their server architecture to the point where the server can handle the load.
Gretkong Tower Trade Consortium 1	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:45:00 - [24] - Quote Aliventi wrote: The issue is that it is the defacto trade hub. If you move the main market hub to another system then all the Jita traffic will follow. Same issue, different system. The only solution that will work is CCP upgrading their server architecture to the point where the server can handle the load. They would just swap their jita node to the new system, i don't think it would be an issue.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada 82	Posted - 2013.06.10 03:09:00 - [25] - Quote They could really help the other hubs out with some map improvements. Short verion: 3 new connections improving minor hub convenience and volume Hek to Rens gate Orvolle to Dodixie gate Bournes to Gyng gate I think it would be doable to get volumes up to a critical mass point where the most common items are priced nearly as efficently as Jita if it were a bit more convenient to get to them..... .. it could snow ball a bit.. sort of recursively. The map really favor's Jita in that the maps in the Gallente and Minmataur areas have much worse sirculation within regions and the regions do not flow into each other as effeiciently as the The Forge - The Citadel - Lontrek (and half of black rise) do. Amarr isn't half bad with Kor-Azor dumping right into it.. Tash Murkon both having a good internal flow making it attractive to locate in and pratically dumping right into Amarr too. Kador flows in a loop that lets a couple tributaries flow into Amarr and while it loses some "while i'm at it i'll go another 6 jumps" trafic from parts of kador and norther Domain, domain has mutiple loops within it and they allow good access to amarr on alternate routs. Tldr Amarr aint so bad. The big problem is the Minmataur and Gallente areas. Their internal circulation sucks, There is some flow to Hek within Metropoils but some pipes are so long that their back excit into Hemitar is prefferable.. flowing towards Rens. Derelek is hell and gone and drops only to Rens and rens if far from other stuff... too far relative to the caldari and Amarr spaces to each other. There is a good deal of 0.0 access... Rens make sense as a hub but not for a lot of Metropolis. Discussing Gallente space is even tougher and I'll spare you but I will say it's regions are far more chopped up with low sec strings and they don't gracefully flow to any center space.... and its generally just as easy to get to Jita as it would be to Rens from a lot of it and Dodixie isn't the natural place to flow to like amarr is within Sinq, Placid Essense Everyshore etc. My solution. Improve the Gallente - Minmataur trade routes ... that will keep a portion of Jita business from those areas more local and as it is recursive loop, the more efficient the market gets due to increased volume the more it will happen. Stop Hek and Rens from canibalizing each other and make both regions more comfortable to move about with a long stargate between Hek and Rens... one or the other will die.. and combined will be stronger. Create a jump from Orvolle in Placid to Dodixie . That will drastically help Essence and Sinq Laison be more like Amarr as well as bringing the mini hub in Orvolle to combine its volume with Dodixie. Then, there needs to be a way to get From Dodixie to Rens far more easily to allow traders to stock both. I've tried.. they're just too far and really it starts making sens to use Jita as a hub when it doesn't need to be.. then you get tired and dont go to the other. Make a long jump between Bournes (Sinq Laison) and Gyng (Hemitar two jumps from rens) . The economy in the Gallente and Minmataur regions would have far more cross access, allowing producers to stock both the Dodixie and Rens hubs easily while still consolodating more business in those two with the probable elimination of Hek and the vastly improved access to Dodixie relative to Jita that the connection to Orvolle would allow.
Hellynx Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.10 03:44:00 - [26] - Quote I have only just started as a trader / Hauler, but this sounds like a fun challenge. Count me in
Joan Greywind I Moan ALOT We Moan ALOT 7	Posted - 2013.06.10 05:58:00 - [27] - Quote the question is why?? this seems totally pointless. You want to write history fine, but do it for a reason, not just because it is a challenge, especially something that involves this many people. And sorry to break your bubble but this is definitely going to fail (I don't mean to be mean). Jita is a major trade hub for a reason and not just random, Being the trade hub (and the only I might add, highsec at least) on the Chinese server also is no accident. We as players weren't forced to use Jita, we chose it because it was the most convenient. At the end of the day most "logical" traders trade for isk (anyone that does trading in Jita just for "fun" needs to be committed) and moving it doesn't provide extra profit, for a huge increase in risk, much lower volumes and much more hassle. As someone mentioned before, if you want a challenge, establish low sec and nullsec (I know too optimistic) trade hubs.
Jin d'SaanGo Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:59:00 - [28] - Quote Diomedes Calypso wrote: ... Even though I appreciate your effort you put in your analysis, I don't like your conclusion. At least not the general approach. My impression is ... the EVE universe is too small already. There is only limited effort needed to get from one side. I'm not sure if you still got to know the "warp to 15km" instead of "warp to 0km" times (manually piloted); but when CCP introduced this, the universe became so much smaller and considerably less dangerous. I also like that different region in EVE have a different character. Yes, some might be quite badly connected, relatively insecure, uninviting etc. But that is great, that is flavour, that give me the feeling I'm not moving on a chessboard but in a real universe. Even as a trader I welcome the fact that for example Hek and Rens are so far away from Jita. It gives me the reason to trade and haul between trade hubs and so I can earn extra profit because prices for consumer goods are higher in the more remote regions. So my suggestion is ... make it harder, more dangerous, more demanding to get to Jita (or to travel between regions). If you need 50min instead of 25min (one way) to get from a random high sec system to Jita, then clever people might think twice and prefer the closer but more expensive hub. When it comes to raw materials, I'm still missing insights in that field. Moon goo, t2 components, minerals, ... I can see how everything flows to Jita and bounces back from there. In fact, that is the only reason why I'm active in that system. If you can make other place attractive for suppliers of raw materials, you have made a significant step towards dethroning Jita. Many haulers will hate you because you just destroyed their means of income.
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 6	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:30:00 - [29] - Quote Joan Greywind wrote: Jita is a major trade hub for a reason and not just random, Being the trade hub (and the only I might add, highsec at least) on the Chinese server also is no accident. We as players weren't forced to use Jita, we chose it because it was the most convenient. Jita changed over time. I think one major reason it became a hub was, that additionaly to its location it was a Mission hub in the early days. But CCP moved the agents. Jita stayed the hub because it was established. That doesnt mean that there are no better places. Joan Greywind wrote: At the end of the day most "logical" traders trade for isk. sure, but pure isk is not the only source of fun. The question is what you do with it.
Esyavore Lando Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire 6	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:36:00 - [30] - Quote The Greenmachine Greenmachine wrote: What if a group of people was large enough to fill up say 500 slots in jita with just alts forcing people to start looking to go somewhere else because they simply cannot get in. this seems to me kind of a dirty trick. But this has a point without the need of alts. Jita cant handle the number of players already. Yesterday there were 200 to 300 people in New Caldari waiting at the gate to get into Jita over several hours.

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