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floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:15:00 -
[1]
Whilst the local channel is clearly important in empire space, I believe that displaying the number and identity of people in local of solar systems of 0.4 security status and below hinders large combat engagments. This is particularly evident in 0.0.
People often go safe or dock, therefore avoiding combat as soon as their enemies enter the same solar system.
We already have covert ops ships capable of providing intel on incoming enemies, or just people in normal ships sitting on gates monitoring activity atm.
The local channel list of people allows for everyone to know instantly without much effort who is in the solar system thus avoiding combat. It doesn't allow for suprise attacks and leads to often drawn out conflicts and boredom. Also enemy scouts (particularly alts) dock in sectors, feeding intel without any risk.
If the local channel in low security sec space allowed people to communicate but did not display a list of people or numbers, this may help to prevent this. I am not suggesting to get rid of local channel in low sec space, just the listing of people currently in the solar system.
I know people will always try to avoid combat in low sec space, so why aid this? By removing the list of people in local, a fleet could theoretically, move undetected into their enemies solarsystem and lay waste to camping ships, miners etc.
I imagine im not the first person to bring this up so sorry if im floggin a dead donkey- why can't this be changed?
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DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:28:00 -
[2]
soooo you can't gank players as much as you want to by being lazy and camping ....oh waaaaaaa......try hunting them down while they travel, doing other things besides camping waiting for that easy kill....
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:28:00 -
[3]
There have been 5 threads in the last week.
CCP, search function quicker plz.
But the essence of "why not" is that lack of information plays into the hands of the hunter. The defender must allways be on their guard, whereas the huner choses when and where to strike. It would give the hunter an unassilable advantage and choke off 0.0 space.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Amataras
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:30:00 -
[4]
Agreed. 0.0 Local is not a glorified chat room. Players should only show up if they type something.
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The Eve Diplomacy Table |
floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:35:00 -
[5]
my main point is that large alliance wars seem to go on forever and bore the pants off people because it's incredibly easy to go into enemy sectors and avoid combat thus no one ever wins zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. everyone sits in station till enemy has gone yawn!!!!!!
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:35:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: DukDodgerz
soooo you can't gank players as much as you want to by being lazy and camping ....oh waaaaaaa......try hunting them down while they travel, doing other things besides camping waiting for that easy kill....
You're funny.
I'm an inty pilot. I can't snipe. Indeed, I am a great enemy of the snipers.
They know where you must travel through. They WILL be waiting. You won't be able to see them. You will die more. How is this good again?
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Epididymus
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:38:00 -
[7]
agreed. people don't travel when they know their enemys are in space. attacking people wont know the number of defenders in system so i dont think this gives anyone an advantage. lose the list.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: floydthe barber
my main point is that large alliance wars seem to go on forever and bore the pants off people because it's incredibly easy to go into enemy sectors and avoid combat thus no one ever wins zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. everyone sits in station till enemy has gone yawn!!!!!!
Great!
And if the enemy can automagically surprise them, either they put a scout out ON the gate in a shuttle and all log when it dies, or they never enter 0.0 in the first place.
Wait, how DOES that help again?
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:49:00 -
[9]
the corps fighting are already based in 0.0 so they won't not enter 0.0. iv'e spent far to much time sitting in corp gangs not fighting because each corp knows what the other is doing and there numbers in a sector. eve needs combat and is a combat orientated game and local listings are making people grow extremley bored of the game.
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floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:52:00 -
[10]
how can you fight a war when the enemy has already second guessed you.
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Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:57:00 -
[11]
I remeber when situation were even worse in 0.0
When local map updated every 5 minutes or so.
Me and boys were in curse to get some russians from the deep 0.0, and when our little blob of 4-5 pilots reached destination, they are were logged!
They logged BEFORE we entter system! atleast NOW our scout reaches them and then they run and log, not before  ...
Anyway, we are going into right direction, but more must be done abaut 0.4> and 0.0 locals - and Sensor and detection system in general!
A complet scanner, local chat and Scannprobe overhaul(they Still dont work properly) , as the current system is WAY WAY outdated to serve it purpose in modern EVE!
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:01:00 -
[12]
Just make cloacked ships disappear in local and make a 60 second timer before you appear in local.
Problem solved.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: DukDodgerz
soooo you can't gank players as much as you want to by being lazy and camping ....oh waaaaaaa......try hunting them down while they travel, doing other things besides camping waiting for that easy kill....
You're funny.
I'm an inty pilot. I can't snipe. Indeed, I am a great enemy of the snipers.
They know where you must travel through. They WILL be waiting. You won't be able to see them. You will die more. How is this good again?
thank you!
At least the sarcasm wasn't lost on everyone.
I would rather have intel I can use, then have no idea who is in local at all. Local hostiles can guess and camp any gate they would think I was heading too, but local chat at least gives me the ability to see I am in a system with hostiles, and thus evade, vs coming out of warp right where they would want me (I do this all the time, knowing your surroundings helps)
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Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:21:00 -
[14]
You'd die less if you didn't try to insta, putting a BM in scan range of the gate, and then...scanned the gate.
The more CCP uses modules to resolve balance issues instead of systemwide rules, the more control CCP will have over how EVE works. CCP, please keep this in mind before swinging the nerfbat. |
Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
There have been 5 threads in the last week.
CCP, search function quicker plz.
But the essence of "why not" is that lack of information plays into the hands of the hunter. The defender must allways be on their guard, whereas the huner choses when and where to strike. It would give the hunter an unassilable advantage and choke off 0.0 space.
yes but when the hunter is not hunting, he is being the hunted. so everyone needs to be on their guard at all times and favours no one.
POS Drug Refinery |
floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:23:00 -
[16]
if you walked into a war zone in the real world on your own you'd expect to die so why do you think an inty should be able to go into enemy space and live. any corp with brains, would, with or without local listing be able to know if there are gate campers. the only element of suprise at the moment is to log off and then log on when enimies enter sector, i'm sure most will agree this is hardly in the spirit of the game.
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Brep
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:24:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Brep on 15/11/2005 23:25:04
Well I think it should work as follows:
Each system keeps a counter every time a pilot enters the system, starting from 1. That pilot will be known as Pilot1. "?" portraits all around. Each successive pilot that enters will be known as Pilot2, Pilot3 ... Pilot873241 etc.. The counter will be reset each DT. Corp mates and gang members will become known immediately, but I'd suggest not extending it to Alliances as it'd be open for exploitation - althought it may be a viable form of espionage?
Now the interesting part of this is that whenever a pilot comes into your overview (or station guest list), they are flagged as being "known", so their local becomes revealed - name, portrait and info.
This system allows everyone to chat in local, but retains the mystery and suprise factor that is needed in PvP. Covert ops will be very helpful at collecting info. Things will be pretty damn confusing in busy systems, so I'd also suggest 0.5 to 1.0 to reveal all pilot's identification. Consider it a Concord initiative ;)
What do you think? Should I post this in Suggestions?
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:33:00 -
[18]
I've been talking about this for almost 2 years as have many more. I just had a huge thread dedicated to this. I'm not arguing any more. But this is what I want to say.
The developers have an image for this game. Local is not included. Those of you who think local should be in as it is now, are not on the same page. The more you fight it totally rather then help us improve it in how it changes the more wasted energy and the longer before any of us see what ultimately needs to happen.
I end with this qoute, (I had wrote a huge post but it got lost ina crash at work, so this is my new version):
Quote:
Local chat and pilots in space map information
reported by Oveur | 2004.07.17 12:25:00
.........
Now, I like local, it's good to see travelers in the same system as you are and encourages people to talk to each other. But it also has a big tactical advantage, that has a far bigger impact in 0.0 than it will ever have in empire space. This is why I'd only like local to change in 0.0. After reading tons of threads on this, I'm most fond if this approach: Local will remain as a chat channel, but it would no longer show the pilots that are in the system . If you talk, you show up, if you don't talk you dont show up. You would still see the system count on the tab (Updated: This part seems to be commonly misunderstood, only the faces going, not the count.)
Pilots in space. Again, we have something that has a much larger tactical and strategic impact then it will ever have in Empire space. Again, this moves me towards only removing this information in 0.0. This does not mean removing anything else from the map. This would give you sufficient information to assume where there is danger in a certain timeframe (ship kills etc.) while not giving you up do date information that you can use as a direct tactical or strategic advantage.
Bolds are mine for emphasis. Get on the side of the fence that is trying to help them realize what they envision. Not your personal opinions of how things should be. There will always be conflict there, nothing will make everyone happy. Personally, I'm glad we have the developers we do, I like their vision and I want to help. Local must be changed. Must.
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Abdalion
But but but....Bald is beautiful! 
It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
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Brep
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:38:00 -
[19]
ah ok, so you can see "Local [15]" but only see those who have spoken. Good idea. I can just imagine the taunting going on "Show yourselves!" "/me clucks like a chiken" :D
Much better idea than mine - so why haven't they done this yet? :|
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MWEI
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:38:00 -
[20]
I see no problem with changing it.
If you are going to run into a gate camp, knowing that guy looking for your cloaked ship is in local or not dosnt change a thing. If you know someone's in local tell you if they are camping on the next gate either, you still have to be cautious, nothings changed.
What has changed is however those poor player-pirates, currently they could enter a system, look in local and determine if there are any good targets for them to hit, if local is nerfed they have to look through each belt individually, making the process much longer and way less fruitful.
In the end it only hurts pirates, they have to do much more to find targets, while miners or anyone trying to avoid a fight would still be able to .
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Brep
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: MWEI
Edited by: MWEI on 15/11/2005 23:38:59
I see no problem with changing it.
If you are going to run into a gate camp, knowing that guy looking for your cloaked ship is in local or not dosnt change a thing. If you know someone's in local it dosnt tell you where they are, so they could always be camping at the jump-out gate, you still have to be cautious, nothings changed.
What has changed is however those poor player-pirates, currently they could enter a system, look in local and determine if there are any good targets for them to hit, if local is nerfed they have to look through each belt individually, making the process much longer and way less fruitful.
In the end it only hurts pirates, they have to do much more to find targets, while miners or anyone trying to avoid a fight would still be able to .
Um... so you don't think the pirates having an element of suprise will be an advantage? Think about it... the pirate chooses a system with plenty of people in local and waits/hunts for a target. The pirate strikes, then moves to a new system. If people are going about warning of a pirate then that's the pirate's own fault for being sloppy. I always keep moving anyway, lest I find an angry mob chasing me down :P
Perhaps their needs to be anotehr way of searching for a player though, like maybe a list of pervious jumps on the billboard? oooh that'd be sweet.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2005.11.15 23:46:00 -
[22]
"The developers have an image for this game. Local is not included."
Um, then who included it in the game? Darned hax0rz!
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floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:18:00 -
[23]
When a corp fights in a sector atm, it fights on its own terms. It identifies how many enemys are in a sector, and if theres a chance of loosing due to being outnumbered they don't fight and vice versa. There seems to be a lot of stalemates due to this atm
Without the list of enemies in local this is more difficult, gates can be watched to see how many enemies come in at any given time but its difficult to determine how many enemies are in the sector in total and the number you will face. e.g.
You have say 20 ships in a sector, 10 enemy ships jump in and are spotted. Do you attack? there could be another 20+etc enemy ships waiting to attack you already in the sector, but you don't know. The decision to fight is not based on the absolute knowage of the size of the opposing force, thus removing the certainty of whether you will win or lose based on numbers.
In response to pirates, the map still displays the number of people in a sector in the last half an hour, so tracking people down to attack shouldn't be too much harder than it is, and they don't know you're coming.
i think ccp should have seen this local problem along time ago and removed it. they've made a mistake. It's time for the makers to be brave and just get rid of it.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:32:00 -
[24]
Since when has combat had to be fair to all parties. I recall an infamous qoute that went something like. If the fight is fair then you have no prepared enough. and also one that you must choose where to fight, if you can not you must choose when to fight and if you can not how to fight and if your enemy lets you choose not any of those, you must choose not to fight.
also more, here are thoughts on stratgies that are applicable only in situations where like sun tzu said, war is deception.
Quote:
"The art of using troops is this:
......When ten to the enemy's one, surround him;
......When five times his strength, attack him;
......If double his strength, divide him;
......If equally matched you may engage him;
......If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
......And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
..........for a small force is but booty for one more powerful."
- Sun Tzu, the Art Of War
Quote:
The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.
- Sun
Quote:
"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious."
Sun Tzu quotes
Quote:
"He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them."
Sun Tzu quotes
Do we truly of a tactical military game? THe framework for it is there. But consistent overly provided intelligence through map and local smothers player ingenuity.
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Abdalion
But but but....Bald is beautiful!
It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
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floydthe barber
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:40:00 -
[25]
yets hope they get the message eventually
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Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.11.16 00:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Drilla
Just make cloacked ships disappear in local and make a 60 second timer before you appear in local.
Problem solved.
This only favours the attackers, hunters, pirates etc.
Nothing solved.
The total removal of local would at least help both sides. Both hunters and prey. Both attackers and defenders.
Personally I think the effects will be mainly positive.
People hiding will have to do so in more remote places but then they become much harder to spot (who goes scanning systems for prey that is many jumps away from hotspots, you normally only find those people by accident).
Alliances will much quicker decide they will just have a go at it in blobwars instead of waiting until they are sure their numbers are bigger, because now they simply wouldn't know that easily.
Information from cloaked scouts/guards at gates would become more valuable favouring people paying attention to proper recon instead of blindly trusting on local.
In places with many people in local I can imagine it will also reduce lag (if private channels grow over 50 people they stop displaying people in the list, perhaps something in revers will work as well on crowded local channels)
The game would become a lot more playing hide and seek, no longer being able to depend on the PvP tool for dummies that is the local.
We'll still have locator agents, we still can put cloaked scouts at gates, we still can use probes and the scanner. It would just all become a lot harder to find someone, because it becomes easier to hide.
But when you DO find him you'll have a much bigger chance of getting him.
If local is removed, I do think CCP should take some steps to decrease the scanner lag and increase it's functionality.
Also improve probes, especially the long range ones, possibly adding some sentry probes which can signal if it detects a ship, using it as a sentry.
Who put those rats in the fridge?! |
Calshir
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:04:00 -
[27]
Why not get rid of local BUT extend the overview to show ships at say 5 - 10 au, you'd see them coming in but would still have just enough time to run (maybe :P) (I'm thinking along the lines of Long Range sensors here al la Star Trek etc...)
As you can currently tweak the overview to only show what you want to see I don't see it cluttering it up too much unless you choose to let it.
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.11.16 13:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tobiaz
Originally by: Drilla
Just make cloacked ships disappear in local and make a 60 second timer before you appear in local.
Problem solved.
This only favours the attackers, hunters, pirates etc.
I fail to see a problem  
Seriously though it'd favor both sides as everyone can fit cloacking and people hauling/passing through can go through most systems in 60 seconds.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.11.16 13:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Drilla
Just make cloacked ships disappear in local and make a 60 second timer before you appear in local.
Problem solved.
Thats a good idea.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2005.11.16 13:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Drilla
Just make cloacked ships disappear in local and make a 60 second timer before you appear in local.
Problem solved.
aye probably the best idea i have yet seen concerning local
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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