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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.13 17:48:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
Carebears attacking carebears, this is funny as h@ll
I can tell you now many of us will not let this fly. Sounding more like the stain alliance every time i read this thread.
We discussed this on speak chat last night and felt like this is soon to be threat in secure space. I noticed you have remove the corps names, that don't matter there still are plenty of moles inside.
So yes many of us will begin to do our own intel of these threating corporations and declare some wars ourselves.
Lets see how this alliance can handle us real pirates
real pirate as in: Joined with no mayor pirate corp, but in an NPC corp. And have 0.0 security status?
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Freezer
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Posted - 2003.08.13 17:48:00 -
[32]
"[ 2003.08.10 22:45:23 ] Icebox > The Trade Federation is not to resolve
corporate conflicts, struggles or issues.
It's only purpose is to regulate prices within the EVE universe through
peaceful methods. It neither condones nor condemns war between it's members."
I presume those who where quoting the chat log read this section as well? Or were they just attempting to quote out of context to stir things up?
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Freezer
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Posted - 2003.08.13 18:25:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Freezer on 13/08/2003 18:27:29
A few facts to point out
1) The Trade Federation has discussed military action against "undercutters" from the first meeting. How can an option be ruled out unless fully discussed? Also, Lets say ABC Corp is selling cruisers way below suggested price. But ... They have their chief of production use an alt in a newbie corp to sell them and transfer the ISKs back to the real corp. No way to fight this. That is only one of the reasons war was ruled out as an option.
Resolution: Military action will not be used. Ever.
2) An "alt" populated corp to deal with "undercutters" through military action such as Mining op harrassment, destruction of ore containers, wars, etc.
Resolution: See point 1 resolution.
3) Control of member corporations and their alts. We are not a "Controlling" body. The result desired is to bring ship prices back up to a profitable level, not to control prices or members. If they are foolish enough to create a corp called "Trade Federation" then by all means, lets start somehing to eliminate them. Personally, I don't find imitation is this case to be very flattering at all.
Resolution: All we can do is caution our members to NOT do this. We have no way of policing this kind of activity under the current system.
The intent of the Trade Federation is for the member corps (and everyone else) to make a reasonable profit on ship sales. The method of doing this MUST be peaceful and educational.
Agreed we discussed things such as war, but in our last meeting the decision was made that all we would do is educate, maintain higher prices and drive the "undercutters" out by attrition.
In many cases, they may seem to make a profit, but with the cost of the blueprint, factory, etc, they will not be able to maintain a well run corp for any length of time.
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Indaek
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Posted - 2003.08.13 18:58:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Are you for real?
We got over 30 corporation/ 100 corporations with all about 10 members average, this is 300-1000 characters who are allied. It is not and will never be possible to show all united their alts, nor do we have to.
Trust Momm on her word, and stop twisting her logs in the way you desire, and you will realize that Trade Federation has no bad intention. Atleast the federation, the corp we are not related too is another story.
For real? Last time i checked i was.
Several corps do this to prevent moles, Something that all corps should do for security, imo. 30 - 100 corps, my how has it grown overnight. It's not that hard to take a screen shot of the character page with all 3 characters showing.
Trust momm? I have no clue who momm is. Did she show any interest in resolving this conflict in game? NO. So i brought it to the forums.
Twisting? Hardly, it was copied and addressed as the points of interest why there may be a link between the 2. As many different ways war was brought up it seem to me to be a desire and point of interest on severals mind. I didn't say the trade federation in whole had bad intentions i just think some in there does.
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Momm
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Posted - 2003.08.13 19:09:00 -
[35]
Hello Dearies,
Indaek, "Did she show any interest in resolving this conflict in game? NO. So i brought it to the forums. "
I play quite a bit, and I did not hear of the conflict until you posted on these forums, if you wish to discuss it, please feel free to evemail me, open convo, or drop on by channel Trade Federation or continue posting here.
Thank you
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 00:47:00 -
[36]
Edited by: agrizla on 14/08/2003 01:23:39
Straight from the CSM chat so no argument Momm :
Momm > There is no way to identify who is selling an item, therefore no way to enforce prices against undercutters.
"Enforce"? Uhuh. Now we all know exactly where we stand.
In fact - since "trade federation" corps are well known I wonder if smaller corps being threatened by this cartel would find it beneficial to pay m0o/sin a token bounty on each TF member they pod? I'm sure m0o/sin (and more) would have loads of fun curtailing any activities of the TF out of Empire space. Given the number of corps involved it shouldn't be too hard to get details of mining ops/etc 
Oh and I don't manufacture but I'd gladly contribute to such a fund because just like in real life cartels are lazy unimaginative people/companies who think they are owed something because they exist.
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Momm
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Posted - 2003.08.14 04:18:00 -
[37]
Hello Dearies,
Agriza, you want mega corps selling on alts for under your prices(small corp) I mean come on, its usually the large corps that can produce the most thus sell for cheaper
And enforce, meaning that we use tactics through the markets i.e buy them out, then sell for higher, I think if a big enough Trade Federation is made, a slush fund to buy from the lower sellers would benefit them, and then we, sell them for higher prices, so both parties are happy true?
Possibility..
and Enforce does not mean militaristic action..
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 11:48:00 -
[38]
Momm I couldn't care less what anyone wants to sell items for. There are always ways of making plenty of money on any item if you're willing to put the effort in.
Oh and I don't believe you don't intend to use force to stop the "undercutters" (as you call them). Nor does anyone else with half a brain. You go ahead and buy up all the "undercutters" stock - they'll just produce more which you'll have to buy and try to sell. Your only recourse ultimately will be war. You know it, I know it and so does anyone else who spends longer than 30 seconds thinking about it.
So stop pretending eh?
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Ar'leich Grade
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Posted - 2003.08.14 13:21:00 -
[39]
I started this because I thought the majority of corps would wish to improve their profits on cruisers etc... What I don't understand is why so many people are willing to fight against something they are already in charge of. Everyone seems to be mistaken that we have leaders who decide where to go next by giving our opinions in the meetings. These are only opinions and it is the CEO's of all the corps in eve that are in charge of it, it is not my fault that all of you fail to see this and seem to think that the only way you can go about changing things is by going against Federation instead of becoming a part of it. If this isn't what you want then it won't exist, you are the people who are choosing whether you want it or not. At first the meetings were intended to have every corp in eve involved discussing what to do (or not do), because of everyones pathetic lack of interest it is no wonder its degenrerated so much when only a few of us contributing.
On a more personal note, I hate weak people that run away from things when life gets too hard, it seems that a lot of those kinda people must be playing eve, anyone with the strength to deal with lifes challenges with determination and intelligence would of just joined the Federation and then completly changed the direction its going in from the inside. Its a poor day indeed where I've had to type something on this moaning board in order to tell you how to run or finish off your own Federation. 
When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will not fall behind others, your mind will become fierce, and you will mainfest martial valor. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy. |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 13:28:00 -
[40]
Edited by: agrizla on 14/08/2003 13:30:13
Dear God if this is the kind of rambling nonsense that is prevalent in the TF I take back everything I suggested about m0o/etc.
Just ignore them.
A clue to the previous poster? People don't play the game to be dictated to by a lazy bunch of CEO's that are incapable of making money. "Anyone with the strength to deal with lifes challenges with determination and intelligence" - these people are making money, unlike you.
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Ar'leich Grade
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Posted - 2003.08.14 14:18:00 -
[41]
Az..errrr don't you think getting all corps up to buy up low priced stuff then sell all at a higher price was a primary idea?
When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will not fall behind others, your mind will become fierce, and you will mainfest martial valor. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy. |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.14 14:35:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Edited by: agrizla on 14/08/2003 13:30:13
Dear God if this is the kind of rambling nonsense that is prevalent in the TF I take back everything I suggested about m0o/etc.
Just ignore them.
A clue to the previous poster? People don't play the game to be dictated to by a lazy bunch of CEO's that are incapable of making money. "Anyone with the strength to deal with lifes challenges with determination and intelligence" - these people are making money, unlike you.
Those "CEO's" you talk about are the one who make the items, who gather the minerals and who take their time to wait hours on trade channel to sell their items.
They are very well capable of making money, however the reward of making that kind of money is minimum compared to the efford of it.
I'd like you to see mine, manufactor and sell all these items for a low (insane) price. Maybe then you will understand.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.08.14 14:35:00 -
[43]
Hmm ... at the Trade Federation and its attempts to tell me exactly how much I can sell my wares for !!
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Fishbone
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Posted - 2003.08.14 14:41:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Fishbone on 14/08/2003 14:48:20
oh please, come buy all my low priced ammo so I am forced to cut back on the amount I am producing since I will have to mine the minerals.
Not to mention I will not be able to have every item I can make on the market, would be wonderful to only have 20 items on market instead of 100.
On a side note Al'rech - I strongly believe you had a hand in the intial attacks on the one man ops. When things went sour from the response, you decided it was time to speak out against these so called PK'ers. Which no one heard of them until after they started using tactics that your alliance was mulling over.
Would also like to report that of the three intial attackers -
#1 Sinistil is reportedly in hiding in a NPC Corp after disbanding the Trade Federation Corp.
#2 Lemon has apparently deleted himself since he is no longer trackable has of last night.
#3 Llyr - was reported he was banned for making terroristic threats to another player - either way, that character was also untracable ingame.
*** Also MOO - my wife wants to know where she can get the dancing cow.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 15:35:00 -
[45]
Ar'leich - don't you think you're missing the point rather? There's far more producers than you can ever hope to "control" and there is a reason why the prices of many items are low - people don't want them!
I'll bet you that a good number of your TF "alliance" are actually using alts to shift the rubbish they've had to buy up - at far below your "recommended" prices.
You have no hope at all of making this work unless you use force - so stop pretending you're the "good guys" eh?
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 15:47:00 -
[46]
Edited by: agrizla on 14/08/2003 15:48:45
Dreamworks - you are clueless. Let me give you a good example of how to make money :
I took an old cruiser of mine (which I'd never use again), equipped it with all the items someone moving from a frigate to a cruiser would need, and then sold the "package" at well above the market value of all the individual components. The customer was happy and indeed comes back to me for both advice and some items that aren't on the market. He survived his first encounter with the "bad guys" because his cruiser was properly equipped by somebody who had flown it for a while and knew how to balance the best fitting for someone with a lesser skill-set.
Most corps are run by idiots who think "oh we've put it on the market and we deserve all this profit". Bollox! The product is the very first stage of marketing your corp. You are not selling discrete items - you are selling your corp and the service it can provide.
Now if you still don't get it then I give up 
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Ar'leich Grade
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Posted - 2003.08.14 15:52:00 -
[47]
I have the foresight to know what effect such attacks as these would create so, no, I haven't got anything to do with it. This is all going nowhere, tell you what...
We'll set up a public vote, say what the Federation was basically intended for then let every CEO in eve vote on whether to disband it or continue.
When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will not fall behind others, your mind will become fierce, and you will mainfest martial valor. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy. |
Ar'leich Grade
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Posted - 2003.08.14 15:53:00 -
[48]
in response to Grades comments I'd like to say what about the losing percentage in the vote and as if you'll ever get everyone to do it!! There I've moaned about my own comment and saved you the effort now just get on with it.
When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will not fall behind others, your mind will become fierce, and you will mainfest martial valor. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy. |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 15:58:00 -
[49]
Ar'leich - my apologies then. I (mistakenly) thought you were part of this "trade federation" - from what you've said it would appear you no longer are.
Corps need to build "brand loyalty" (which I admit can be hard) - that is the way to success, not some half-assed cartel 
An example :
Look - every corp has people in it that are the "combat" specialists yes? Now not many people in Eve actually have much experience of combat. So get one of your combat guys to talk to the customer about fitting the ship out. You'll sell more and at a premium. If the advice is good then the customer will return. If not....
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Ar'leich Grade
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Posted - 2003.08.14 18:45:00 -
[50]
I am in Federation, in fact I founded it. The problem is I wished all of the large experienced corps to take control of the situation as long as they kept in mind the smaller corps but that hasn't happened. The larger corps have already been dealing with this situation on their own as they have the resources to do so and have many ideas and solutions that have been tried and tested as well as ideas that haven't worked and resulted in them having to go to war.
I've been told admin said "We only build the clay, it is up to the players to make the story".
It is agreed by a lot of people that we'd rather deal with a situation ourselves and prepare ourselves for future situations rather than wait for the Admin to patch every problem that we ourselves could fix. I'm sure you've already heard that they may be bringing out a patch to limit the number of cruisers you can build on one copy, how depressing is that!
Surely all corps with cruiser BP copies would much rather solve the problem without being restricted like this, the least we can do is stop the same thing happening with Battleships.
When on the battlefield, if you try not to let others take the lead and have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, then you will not fall behind others, your mind will become fierce, and you will mainfest martial valor. Furthermore, if you are slain in battle, you should be resolved to have your corpse facing the enemy. |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.14 19:26:00 -
[51]
You mistake me for someone who cares what anything costs mate. I'm not being funny either. I've seen prices at their highest and their lowest and to be quite frank it makes no difference to the average player as income tends to follow prices (it lags a little as in all real economies).
You appear to be thinking we're in a deflationary period but I think the converse is actually true. The base material of the whole game (minerals) can easily be sold at above npc prices because of the amount of battleships being built. Prices of rarer items are increasing day by day. I've seen the same in other games and this one has the same flaw - no regulation of money supply.
If you're building cruisers then you're in a saturated market - you now rely on ship losses or new gamers (of which there aren't a lot) to generate business. In my humble opinion anyone trying to fix a price on cruisers is flogging a dead horse - it simply can't be done. Try if you want but it'll fail - simply because of human nature.
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Momm
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Posted - 2003.08.15 02:35:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Momm on 15/08/2003 02:39:50
Hello Dearies,
I would like to ask everyone posting here to not make personal attacks towards others, as it will not help any situation... just adds 'flame'
Please be respectful towards everyone or I will request this thread to be locked.
I would also like to ask for a small discussion towards a possible solution to assist making the Trade Federation sucessful, If the Trade Federation becomes a little bit larger, we could potentially begin contracting the 'undercutters' to buy from, we buy out their supply(which would make them satisfied), then the Trade Federation puts them on the open market at a slight increase in price. I believe that if we cannot control the entire eve universe, we can operate out of multiple regions, possibly further out ones to give a reason to increase the price(only ideas)
A slight issue that I see in this is, we could rack up a monsterous supply of cruisers, if demand does not increase(events could possibly assist in this area) and the vast number of corps that can build their own ships due to the bpcopies circulating about
Just possible solutions, willing to hear what others think
"Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes a little longer"
Thank you
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Ecchus
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Posted - 2003.08.15 08:14:00 -
[53]
[quote"Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes a little longer"
I'd like more info, have you a website?
==========
Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee..
- Melville.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.08.15 11:22:00 -
[54]
Irrelevant of whether or not some people want to realise it, the eve economy does have issues, and the game developers in the same stated CSM thread agreed.
Whilst some people may not like the ideas of this organisation, I don't see an issue at all.
It is seen daily that prices of items seems to be dropping vastly below their mineral worth.
Seems some people forget that to make items you have:
A) Buy the blueprint (money you need to make back)
B) Mine the minerals, or buy them
C) Spend time making these items, along with the associated factory rental costs
D) Haul and sell the items in areas they might sell
E) The most forgotten part. All goods you sell have a sales-tax taken from them, so the Journal Transaction Total is different from the Transaction Amount displayed. You have to make enough to cover this also.
Why on earth should anyone in their right mind do all this to make LESS then the minerals will sell for even if not at NPC max rates?
That is why the federation is very likely to have come about, and I don't disagree with them at all.
I find it amuzing that pirates will make comments like that, when they are stealing and selling. Hell, you are making a profit on almost all things you sell that way, no matter what the value ;D
Manufacturers turn minerals into goods to make more money from those minerals, not less. Anyone making less really should just consider selling the minerals, as you aren't doing yourself any favours either. Just simple maths.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.15 11:33:00 -
[55]
Edited by: agrizla on 15/08/2003 11:34:08
Quite right Ruffles - anyone selling at below mineral cost is an idiot. However anyone who expects to make >100% profit on an item is likewise an idiot (see another thread where a TF member is complaining about this).
I don't see what the problem is with people selling at below mineral cost - buy the items, recycle and use/sell the minerals. You make money and they lose it.
In the case of people who do make a profit then it's really up to them as to how they value their time. If they value their time less than you value yours then they sell for less. That's life 
Oh and I'd thank you not to call me a pirate
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Darksheer
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Posted - 2003.08.16 00:41:00 -
[56]
a point I would like to add as i was involved in this mess as well
i was gone for 3 days on a family emergency so ill toss my 2 cents in now
I would really like a official in the trade federation to explain to me the following
"if these supposed well known PK's were doing this to make the TF look bad why were they
telling us time and time again that all we had to do to avoid getting attacked was to raise our prices to conform with the TF or to join the TF itself and we would be left alone"
2nd "if this supposed group of pk's were trying to make the Tf look bad by commiting bad acts why did they suddenly vanish from sight once the TF started to take heat on the boards as that would be grand time to step up the problem causing"
3rd and last
"why did these supposedly well known PK's go to war with a 2 man corp when most PK'S i know about are out in 0.0 space killing miners something these people were not doing "
any information on these questions would be greatly appreciated
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.16 01:36:00 -
[57]
Edited by: agrizla on 16/08/2003 01:38:20
Edited by: agrizla on 16/08/2003 01:37:53
Ah well you see the problem was all because the "Trade Federation" didn't actually register a corp called the "Trade Federation" - a concept which the devs expressed some disbelief/surprise at during the CSM. Oddly enough this does allow them to distance themselves from anything that the "well-known PK'ers" (who nobody except the TF have heard of) do. I know what I think and it reminds me of the smell you get when you walk across a field of cows in the middle of summer - you will all of course have to make your own minds up on this
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Darksheer
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Posted - 2003.08.17 03:59:00 -
[58]
Bump
Still waiting for someone from the 1000 member strong TF to see this and pass it up the line to the people in charge
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:25:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Edited by: agrizla on 16/08/2003 01:38:20
Edited by: agrizla on 16/08/2003 01:37:53
Ah well you see the problem was all because the "Trade Federation" didn't actually register a corp called the "Trade Federation" - a concept which the devs expressed some disbelief/surprise at during the CSM. Oddly enough this does allow them to distance themselves from anything that the "well-known PK'ers" (who nobody except the TF have heard of) do. I know what I think and it reminds me of the smell you get when you walk across a field of cows in the middle of summer - you will all of course have to make your own minds up on this
Trade Federation doesnt distance themselves from PKers, it doesnt mather if we have Pk's in our federation or not. However there will never and shall never be pked nor stolen in the name of the federation.
We use market tactics to enforce our vision, not agression nor thievery.
Today i have found out that a character named DREAMW0RKS (with ZERO instead of the O) has registered itself and is stealing ore in my name and in the name of my corporation.
We do not have thieves in our corporation, nor do we steal to enforce what we think is right. Also this brings another subject: harassment.
And i have filed this person for harassment, and so did many others involved with these actions. You can hate me ingame, but one day you will realize yourself you hate someone you only know from a game. And lowering yourself isnt funny like i thought it was at first, its pathetic and i feel sorry with the poor soul who tries to "cripple" the Trade Federation in these pathetic attempts.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 19:57:18
Umm another petition Dreamworks? You almost rate your own GM the rate you send these in
Second time someone has impersonated the Trade Federation eh? Then again you never know this one could have been as a response to your post about chainkilling and also you saying "if I can't fight you I'll report you" (AKA if I don't get my way I'll petition) Or maybe not..
Harrassment eh? Well I suppose you might find a GM who'd go for that - although I can't see why myself. That is of course if you have actually petitioned and if the person claimed to be the CEO of Dreamcatchers - ie actually claimed to be your character. If however they were doing it as part of a plot to undermine the TF I doubt if it could be classed as harrassment.
It makes some sense as I've been chatting to someone who has suffered a loss from this "dreamworks" figure and they said he was in a school corp.
All conjecture really - you say this just like Momm said the "Trade Federation" were well-known PK'ers (that nobody AFAIK had heard of). It could be someone outside the TF causing problems or it could be someone inside the TF trying to force it in a certain direction. The joys of politics eh?
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