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LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.04 03:55:00 - [121] my toughts exactly... something that would make wcs unatractive in pvp... pve, travel, fine. Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after Be back in a year or so
Redblade	Posted - 2005.12.04 04:08:00 - [122] As i said before, make them highslot wich will make them less desirable for pvp and if u want to travel it won't affect u at all (industrials would need a utility or two more) Then add a stacking penalty to agility wich u can compensate for with nanofibers but that will cost u the lowslots aswell to prevent the +8 stab with insane agility setups. This will make the wcs a module designed for travel/running , if u want to use one or two for PVE/PVP it's still possible but u will have to sacrifice some offensive ability and if u realy want to stab out to run u will be slow to warp unless u compensate with nanofibers wich makes your ship fitted only for running.
neur0n	Posted - 2005.12.04 04:22:00 - [123] Originally by: Redblade As i said before, make them highslot wich will make them less desirable for pvp and if u want to travel it won't affect u at all (industrials would need a utility or two more) Some indys only have 1 hi slot, which wouldnt make that a viable suggestion :\ The stacking penalty is a good idea, same goes for the idea given above of increasing cpu. ------------- Inappropriate signature removed -Zhuge
Redblade	Posted - 2005.12.04 04:31:00 - [124] Originally by: neur0n Originally by: Redblade As i said before, make them highslot wich will make them less desirable for pvp and if u want to travel it won't affect u at all (industrials would need a utility or two more) Some indys only have 1 hi slot, which wouldnt make that a viable suggestion :\ The stacking penalty is a good idea, same goes for the idea given above of increasing cpu. Hence me mention that indys would need a utilityslot or two more...
neur0n	Posted - 2005.12.04 04:37:00 - [125] oh sorry, didnt notice :) ------------- Inappropriate signature removed -Zhuge
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.12.04 04:47:00 - [126] i agree with the wcs to high slot item suggestion - that would b balanced.
Filan	Posted - 2005.12.04 05:21:00 - [127] just make a new slot between low and medium called Utility and give indys 6 or 7 of them. make WCS a utility item and then add a new module, Engine Stabilizer to block webbing(except only allow haulers to use the Anti-Webber).
Sorja	Posted - 2005.12.04 05:36:00 - [128] What about removing tacklers out of the game all together so we can have pure BS fights? Tackler is a difficult job, probably the most difficult one, any fleet should field tacklers. If you don't, don't cry about WCS. Or show some support to the idea of interceptors having less firepower and better tackling abilities. ____________________________________ Let's make the MK2 Moa a ship worth flying.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.04 07:55:00 - [129] Originally by: Sorja What about removing tacklers out of the game all together so we can have pure BS fights? Tackler is a difficult job, probably the most difficult one, any fleet should field tacklers. If you don't, don't cry about WCS. Or show some support to the idea of interceptors having less firepower and better tackling abilities. I'm sorry but what is this "Tackler" you speak of? This a new ship or something? I'm totaly cluessless, I should join BoB. I like how even one of the BIGGEST most FEARED PvP alliances in game don't know how to come up with a "Squad Build" to engage targets. It's a real simple concept really I swear. You design 2-10 ship builds as one build. That way you can complete more tasks in combat. Like for example a "Squad Build" to help counter WCS ships you might engage. -Example 5 man build- Sorja - Vigil Filan - Stiletto LUKEC - Raven mor0n - geddon Redblade - geddon Vigil - Medium : 2xWarp Disruptors Stiletto - Medium : 2xWarp Disruptors Raven - Medium : Sensor Boost, Damps, 1xWarp Disruptor Geddon - 2xSensor Boost, 1xWarp Disruptor Go figure eh? Why be smart about PvP eh? Think it helps... -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Baudolino	Posted - 2005.12.04 08:15:00 - [130] I think the easiest way to prevent exploitation would be to introduce same stacking penalties for stabs that are implementet on damage mods.
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.12.04 10:18:00 - [131] Edited by: Sky Hunter on 04/12/2005 10:20:38 Aw cmon. WCS isnt a damage mod. So stacking penalty will be useless....people will keep fitting all-low WCS. Point is to nerf the all-low WCS, and to allow people use still WCS but not fill all low slots with it. Its fine to nerf those who use more then 3 stabs, but 1-2 stabs in pvp setups is pretty much ok and it IS common for those pilots who often operate in region without any support or backup. -=-
Redblade	Posted - 2005.12.04 10:26:00 - [132] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri I'm totaly cluessless QFT
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.04 11:46:00 - [133] Originally by: Redblade Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri I'm totaly cluessless QFT What do warp disruption modules not stack anymore or something? (I'm solo so forgive me if they don't. Remember I'm not a sheep) If they do still stack then umm why is it you're saying im clueless again? -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.12.04 11:54:00 - [134] disruptor/scramblers arent stacking. -=-
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:03:00 - [135] Originally by: Sky Hunter disruptor/scramblers arent stacking. They stack for me...... -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Dark PIne	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:07:00 - [136] Make scramblers chance based, and introduce normal stacking penalties for scrambles and stabs. With new stacking rules 4 stabs would be the max effective amount of stabs with any ship, and they would equal only three without stacking.
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:24:00 - [137] Originally by: Dark PIne Make scramblers chance based Oh god no. I still think my suggestion of moving stabs to midslots is the best. Move 'em to highslots and you'll have to add slots to haulers (more or less). Moving them to mids would boost travel setups as well imo, as you can go all stabs in mids and all nano's in lows. This would make catching some haulers extremely hard tho. p - l - u - r
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:41:00 - [138] Famine bugger off with your unrealistic scenario's.. He's on about 1v1's and small fights, your on about gank squads.. Basically 1v1 if 1 person has 4 stabs fitted its just lame, and youre saying fit more scramblers, ridiculous.. uh.
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:42:00 - [139] Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 04/12/2005 12:43:36 Originally by: Ras Blumin Originally by: Dark PIne Make scramblers chance based Oh god no. I still think my suggestion of moving stabs to midslots is the best. Move 'em to highslots and you'll have to add slots to haulers (more or less). Moving them to mids would boost travel setups as well imo, as you can go all stabs in mids and all nano's in lows. This would make catching some haulers extremely hard tho. and btw, dumb idea, makes caldari ships uber nerfed in that respect, just make them use 5cap/s each.. or maybe even 10cap/s It would resolve the issue of tanking and using stabs to some degree and if you cap drain them its an effective counter to it.. uh.
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.12.04 12:49:00 - [140] 10 cap sec? are you insane? You know that 10 cap sec is basicly same as you got 5 hardeners running non-stop? Not far better then mid slot and chance based suggestions above..... -=-
SLIM	Posted - 2005.12.04 13:01:00 - [141] Edited by: SLIM on 04/12/2005 13:03:40 Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri I'm sorry but what is this "Tackler" you speak of? This a new ship or something? I'm totaly cluessless, I should join BoB. I like how even one of the BIGGEST most FEARED PvP alliances in game don't know how to come up with a "Squad Build" to engage targets. It's a real simple concept really I swear. You design 2-10 ship builds as one build. That way you can complete more tasks in combat. Like for example a "Squad Build" to help counter WCS ships you might engage. -Example 5 man build- Sorja - Vigil Filan - Stiletto LUKEC - Raven mor0n - geddon Redblade - geddon Vigil - Medium : 2xWarp Disruptors Stiletto - Medium : 2xWarp Disruptors Raven - Medium : Sensor Boost, Damps, 1xWarp Disruptor Geddon - 2xSensor Boost, 1xWarp Disruptor Go figure eh? Why be smart about PvP eh? Think it helps... Congratulations! You are the first person in EVE to think about squad sized combat in this way! Now that you're done patting yourself on the back, let's see what happens ingame. I am bait in the belt, and our friendly WCS raven warps in, starts trying to kill me, I whistle up the friends you've called in. They warp in, raven targets them. because he has a sensor booster, he has time to lock and nos one of the vigils. Because your vigils are using 20km warp disrups, he can't sustain his cap, and raven warps off. He then proceeds to smack about how it takes five of us to kill him, and even then, we fail. We try using probes, but he hops around till his timer wears off. Then he logs off, logs on a covops alt, and sits in local until he sees most of us log. Then he tries again. Repeat ad infinitum. So you see, even in your contrived example (where it takes FIVE people to kill ONE), there is a high possibility for failure. Furthermore, in a mixed fleet attack, the wcs users will have a much higher probability of survival, and thus, winning. Really, trying to justify a module in a 5v1 scenario is stupid. Let's look at it from a game theory angle in a standard 1v1 encounter. All setups here are quite typical, and I see them often. Pilot A is your standard PVP lone wolf hunter in 0.0. He uses 2x 7.5km scram (don't want those stab users gettin away!). He has no stabs. Pilot B is your standard stab user, 4 stabs on a battleship. He uses 1x 20km. Pilot A cannot win. He can only lose or not lose. If he gets scrambled and the other ship is better fit, he dies. If he starts winning, other guy warps off to safespot hop. Pilot B cannot lose. He can only win or not lose. If he starts losing, he warps out. If he's winning, he kills the other player. Now, do you see the problem? Or do I have to start drawing pictures in MS Paint?
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.04 13:04:00 - [142] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 04/12/2005 13:05:02 Editing -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.12.04 13:10:00 - [143] Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis and btw, dumb idea, makes caldari ships uber nerfed in that respect Coz they have the most mids!?! p - l - u - r
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.04 13:39:00 - [144] Quote: Pilot A cannot win. He can only lose or not lose. If he gets scrambled and the other ship is better fit, he dies. If he starts winning, other guy warps off to safespot hop. Pilot B cannot lose. He can only win or not lose. If he starts losing, he warps out. If he's winning, he kills the other player. Now, do you see the problem? Or do I have to start drawing pictures in MS Paint? Sorry totaly forgot to reply to this too... If pilot A couldn't win against other setups he isn't design to counter for. Yes? Should I draw it on MS paint for you? Pilot A could win if he fit to counter pilots with warp core stabs. Which is hard to predict being we never know what we will run into. Just like every other setup in game. Pilot A wouldn't be able to defeat a ECM scorpion the same way. If he wasn't able to counter it to begin with. Yes? ok... Quote: He can only win or not lose. he can only win or not lose? Then what's this mean to that statement? Quote: If he gets scrambled and the other ship is better fit, he dies. Well which is it. "He can only win or not Lose" or "He can only win, lose, or not lose"? Because like you said, if the WCS ship is better fit and he dies. Then that would be Pilot A umm losing. So you should correct that PREDICTED statement of the fight outcome. You can't win a lot of fights. You can tell you can't win them either. I keep using ECM and other EW as examples of not being able to WIN because you DIDN'T counter there setups. It's hard to counter people when you don't know what you're up against till you're up against it. Predicting predetermin fights like "Pilot A and B with WCS" is obviously going to favor your whinning. But what about the people who counter 2 WCS's and still win? What about the people who use ECCM and still win? What about them? Do they understand the game better than most of you? Maybe, but that's prob because you're stuck in MS Paint. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
neur0n	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:24:00 - [145] Edited by: neur0n on 04/12/2005 23:27:00 Famine Aligher'ri, please start making posts that prove a valid point, all of ur examples given above prove nothing. 5v1? we're talking about 1v1, 2v2 even 3v3, not about gank squads. Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Predicting predetermin fights like "Pilot A and B with WCS" is obviously going to favor your whinning. But what about the people who counter 2 WCS's and still win? What about the people who use ECCM and still win? What about them? Do they understand the game better than most of you? Maybe, but that's prob because you're stuck in MS Paint. The scenario u said on ur other post, besides being ridiculous also favores ur whining, so who are you to point fingers to? Atleast he gave a valid and ontopic example. Also what does ECM and ECCM have to do with warp core stabs? You can jam people even if they have ECCM fitted so what u said above is plain dumb. Also if you're jammed it doesnt matter if the target has wcs or not, you wont be able to put a scrambler on them anyways, so your example was just stupid. Stop making a joke of yourself, only makes you look bad and dumb. Start thinking more and flaming less. ------------- Inappropriate signature removed -Zhuge
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:42:00 - [146] Not in favour of highslot. Not only would it mean adding utility slots to haulers (T2 battle haulers with nos, UGH), sniper Tempests with 6 1400, 2 WCS, etc. Just make em knock 5-10% off cap each allready. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Redblade	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:51:00 - [147] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: Redblade Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri I'm totaly cluessless QFT What do warp disruption modules not stack anymore or something? (I'm solo so forgive me if they don't. Remember I'm not a sheep) If they do still stack then umm why is it you're saying im clueless again? We are discussing a mod that's unbalanced in many aspects of the game and not fittings of a ganksquad wich must be what u think. Try and read the thread again and when/if u understand it feel free to give your input, preferably without your silly "omg i dont like BoB" comments.
Redblade	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:54:00 - [148] Originally by: Maya Rkell Not in favour of highslot. Not only would it mean adding utility slots to haulers (T2 battle haulers with nos, UGH), sniper Tempests with 6 1400, 2 WCS, etc. Just make em knock 5-10% off cap each allready. Think they can make them wcs only or restrict offensive mods in them. And i think your cap penalty will be unbalanced considering the difference in cap recharge between ships and the use of cap booster is beeing boosted with next patch wich makes it even less of a penalty to anything big.
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:57:00 - [149] Originally by: Masta Killa This thread isn't completely brainless after all... This is my hypothetical story as to why stabs need to be changed (not removed). Joey is a regular guy in an alliance. He's played from day one and has 35 mil sp, most of which he has in minmatar ships and gunnery. Bill is an ebil pierat who's played since last december so he has little over 11 mil sp. Now Joey is hunting in a belt in his insane dmg dealing tempest when Bill warps in in a raven! Joey has no idea that pirate ravens (BE, Iron, G etc etc) are most of the time using this setup or 1 of many slight variants of it: 6x siege launcher I, 2x medium neutralizer 4x dampener II, 100mn mwd, 20km scrambler 4-5x warp core stabs, 0-1x cap relay/ ballistic (OOC: There, I said it.. it's the burn eden setup that I modified to be a solo ship... dozens of bs kills and losses that one could count on the fingers of 1 of his hands...This setup needs nerfing) Now Joey engaged Bill even though he had a chance at warping out but was completely and utterly owned, not even being able to lock Bill -once-. Then a few seconds later, 2 of Joey's hardass pvper friends warped into the belt and scrambled Bill with 1x 7.5km scram each but Bill just warped away to a safespot laughing at them and counting his brand new officer mods. This is what will happen almost every time someone uses that setup: He/she kills something and gets away. Moral of the story: Ecm is a normal part of eve but making yourself almost uncatchable is NOT. Actually making yourself almost uncatchable is a part of this game. This entire thread is baisically saying its ok for an 8 stabbed geddon to come thru with all his minerals buy for BURN EDEN to use stabs in combat is an outrage. You guys are actually wasting your time. If warp core stabs were completly removed from the game today, we would loose mabey 10% more ravens, but we would kill 50% more enemies. The stabs are not that important. They are more of a safety net than something that is often needed. I support removing warp core stabs from the game completly. I am against changing them or allowing *** travel setups such as 8wcs apoc tanked with mwd. I know all you carebears want an easy time killing us, and an easy time moving your minerals to empire, but EVE doesn't have an "I'm too youn to DIE!1!" mode. Deal with it.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.12.04 23:59:00 - [150] Personally, my game would be improved no end by the removal of wcs, or at least a heavy penalty. Famine, yes i'm sure it is easy to lock down ONE ship with FIVE ships, thannx for the comment The issue is their ease of fitting. You can cruise around in your geddon with 5 hs and 3 stabs or a similar mix and be immune to 90% of solo players. This kills the game for the solitary hunter. I don't roll out alone with less than 2 scrams now because it jsut isnt practical to fit anything less. And it's criminally impractical to fit them on a ship without an mwd. Thers no detremental effects to fitting wcs worth mentioning, 2 low slots on a bs? If you can get away from 90% of solo combat intact then who gives a flying ****! There, i just contributed nothing to your thread

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