GǪwhich again would only really hurt legitimate traders. Also, the fundamental question remains: why does it need to be changed in any way to begin with?

GÇ£Because scams!GÇ¥ is not an answer to that question.

In my opinion it is a broken mechaic if there are orders in the market that are not covered for at least the minimum amount.

I think the point for me is, that the market must not be somekind of a gambling place where you never know if not atleast the minimum amount can be sold to a buy order.

Margin trading is not considered an exploit.

The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to lose money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.

FTFY

The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.

They have done no such thing. You're confusing an offer to treat with a contract.



They are. A failed margin order costs you the broker fees while you receive no goods.



Where in this process do you see the banks being involved? Banks are involved in RL margin trading because it involves trading with borrowed money. In EVE, there's no money being borrowed, so no banks involved.

This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.

The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.

Simple solutions do exist to this problem.

An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.

Buy orders certainly qualify as contracts by any reasonable definition. I wouldn't confine yourself to such a static rule set. Laws change all the time, and it's about time CCP fixed this.

Yes your wallet balance and transactions are not conducted by a third party at all.

A failed order cost is hardly a cost, as you would still pay it on a successful order.

Hit them with a fine. It would make at least for a funny isk sink.

I have mixed feelings on this, as someone who has been playing eve for quite awhile they are usually painfully obvious to spot... however for a new player its often something they can't anticipate - no amount of careful diligence within the scope of the mechanic (from their perspective) itself reveals the potential flaw there which to me pretty much makes it an exploit.

On the flipside, more by luck than judgement, I've made a fair bit of ISK from either lucky timing or when someones set it up wrong and I happen to already have the item(s) in question.

In his current form, Margin trading can only benefits scammers and manipulates badly the market. It is a broken mechanic. In real life, such behaviors would result in some sort of punishment. In Eve, the player can exploit it as long as he want.

I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it?

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it?

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

There are for sure many items I dont know the regular price. Today I looked at a faction item which has no sell order or contract advertised in Jita local. It only had a single item buy order of 1B. At first I thought it was a margin trading scam like many others. I could have looked at the history to determine if this was the regular price but was too lazy and moved on.

The thing is, the margin trading scam in his current form makes even a decent old char like me to not trust the market. I can imagine what it can do to newbies and I am sure many newbies would even quit EVE after falling for such scam with their hard earned ISK. If I had fallen for such trick back in time when I had my first billion, for sure I would have loose faith in the market and may have quit the game.

In his current form, Margin trading can only benefits scammers and manipulates badly the market. It is a broken mechanic. In real life, such behaviors would result in some sort of punishment. In Eve, the player can exploit it as long as he want.

If CCP still wants to support that broken and useless skill/mechanic, they should make on or more of the next modifications in my opinion:

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

Margin trading orders should be identified in some way, telling the other player that the order may not go through. This would avoid also the other bad effects of MT with seasoned players for other legitimate products: those buy order that are used to manipulate the market to raise the legitimate buy order who follows it back.

Implement some consequences if you fail to complete a MT order, there are many ways to do this.

This is my opinion and no I havent fall for a MT scam. (English is my second language)

TM

No, they're conducted by brokers. Who are paid in fixed fees.

The Broker's fees are a cost in both instances. The failed order fails to provide you with the benefit (the transaction) you paid your broker for.

Again, they are hit with a fine. They do not get the benefit normally received from paying the broker's fees, so those fees are wasted.

Besides that:
1) Nobody (besides the person whose buy order failed) hurt by a failed buy order, so why fine someone for something that doesn't hurt anyone?
2) The character you're suggesting fining is insolvent. They have no ISK to take (otherwise the order would be filled). So how would you fine them?

1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.

Do we need to anounce every contract scam?

1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.

2) Does your bank fine you if you are insolvent? Of course they do, you overdraw, you get hit with a fee, You write a bad cheque, you get hit with a fee. Now you suddenly get money in your account, who gets paid first....The bank.

The brokers fee is for placing the order, which they did and got paid for. Not having the funds there you are not penalized for in any way, and you should be...Mostly so we can see a massive influx of scammers tears

Congratulations, you just completely broke the market. Using a filter to remove buy orders placed with the margin trading skill would filter out about 90% of all the buy orders currently in place.

In short, you're advocating punishing the many legitimate traders who use the skill, to protect the greedy idiots who think they can make a quick profit and end up getting scammed.

It seems the level of posters is ones again pretty low on this forum.
I dont see a reason to change this skill, i dont agree with its use but its fine with me.

I simply made a suggestion on how to come to a compromise between people against this skill and the people who use it.
If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.

It seems the level of posters is ones again pretty low on this forum.
I dont see a reason to change this skill, i dont agree with its use but its fine with me.

I simply made a suggestion on how to come to a compromise between people against this skill and the people who use it.
If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.