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Cost of carelessness

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pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 05:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. By that logic a city shouldnt give parking tickets because they did not buy my car for me. Mainly this fine serves as a detourent.
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 05:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! Another benifit of the 'stupid tax' is that it would drive ppl like this out of your alliance.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:23:00 - [33] Originally by: pershphanie I agree with this assesment. Which is why in order to do this you would need to assign people to determain whether or not the accident could have been avoided. Blindly fining everyone who loses a ship is obvoisly not a good idea. QFT And this is why I say I disagree with it. It's going to be so hard to be objective and unbiased. I really dont think a corp or alliance can do it, I really dont. Its going to create some very bad feelings. Its beacuse all three situations will be looked at from a different perspective based on those who were and wernt involved. Example: Incompetence A memeber was ratting and a triple commander spawn spawned, the memeber was balancing cap, guns, drones, blah blah blah, trying to take it down. Well just his bad luck an enemy cover ops jumped in and found him ratting. Unless the guy seen him show up in local and SS right away hes f'd. And chances are that with "fighting the good NPC fight" he missed the bad guy jumping in. Now from everyone else prespective he wasnt watching local and should have known better, the dumbass-fine him, but from the ratters perspective he was just unlucky. So do you believe him and let it slide or fine him? Trust me the first person that you make an exception for, everyone after him will call bullsht. And rightly so. Then you may have the problem of say a FC making a stupid choice. Does he get fined? If I was in your corp with the threat of me making a mistake and being fined I would sure a F' expect the FC to pay a fine for every ship lost because of his incompetence. Hell for that matter I expect it of the CEO too. Everyone has to play by the same rules, or the rules mean nothing.* I really suggest you dont open that pandora's box. Its not worth it. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your corp, just trying to show objective outside view of why it could/will end up being a bad idea. Its all about perspective, and everyone will see it differently.
Malken	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! ever considered that they are there because there are people like you in the opposing alliance who always expects others to fight for you and defend you so you can make alot of isk for yourself. idiot.
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:36:00 - [35] I can't imagine anyone who would be dumb enough to pay this fee for losing their own ship. If asked to pay that, I'd immediately leave such corp/alliance after telling them to GFY...
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:44:00 - [36] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. By that logic a city shouldnt give parking tickets because they did not buy my car for me. Mainly this fine serves as a detourent. Thats a very bad example. I would be more relevent to say that the city has a right to ticket me if someone steals my car and I didnt have a car alarm. Quote: But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. Trust me anyone who thinks I owe them money for me losing my ship. Is going to get a very blunt "shove it up your ass" statement from me.
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:46:00 - [37] Edited by: SengH on 09/12/2005 06:46:54 I dunno the best saying to summarize this would be you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. If the member refuses to pay up and the CEO refuses to pay the fine or kick the member because he disagrees with your assement. Where do you go from there? You kick the corp? I dont see that being very good morale wise.
Vina	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian Originally by: Alex Krause Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? Gee I wonder... You seem to pop up on every thread, very brave of you to go to all the trouble of making an alt character then putting one line answers all over eve-o. If your so - I'm sorry I hate using this expression but it's the only language you'll understand - If your so 'uber' post with your main. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Yea sure, I'm an alt. http://www.siegedom.com/Files/Eve/EveTempestHax.jpg I guess the fact that my sigpic says KAYOSONI in it isn't a clue? http://www.siegedom.com/Files/Eve/EveNyuu3.jpg ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:06:00 - [39] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 07:09:15 Sounds to me that it's more an attempt to reduce the number of losses on the killboard, so that the enemies can't brag about them. I see no sense in it, except that it's a ship that has been paid by the alliance or corp. Everyone of us has such pvp ships and these are only to be used, when the pvp leaders tell you to do it and then a loss is also replaced. So there is always a pvp bs etc. for you in the hangar for a fleet operation. What you do with your own ships is up to you. If you loose your hunting BS in PvP you have to look how to get a new one. So careless people who loose a lot only punish themselves. And sometimes a gank is hard to avoid, except you don't do anything in 0.0 on your own. When we are doing ganking trips into enemy territory with 10-15 people mostly in interceptors, we jump into the systems at once and immediately sent a tackler into each belt and if someone finds something, all people warp to him. Guess a victim would be not very amused, if he had to pay 100 mil isk to his alliance after being killed that way. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Fred0	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:17:00 - [40] Edited by: Fred0 on 09/12/2005 07:23:55 Good idea tbh. Every fight that happens knowingly and consentingly should be excluded ofcourse. But the rest needs to be weeded out and IF harsh punishments for being silly and getting ganked alone by 15 will make sure it doesn't happen again, then I'm all for it. Ofcourse the best thing would just be if the ganked ones suddenly became abit brighter... Or maybe recruitment procedures should be tightened instead of recruiting fools and then fining them.. Hmmm, now i see...
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:29:00 - [41] Edited by: pershphanie on 09/12/2005 07:30:59 Originally by: Snake Jankins Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 07:09:15 Sounds to me that it's more an attempt to reduce the number of losses on the killboard, so that the enemies can't brag about them. I see no sense in it, except that it's a ship that has been paid by the alliance or corp. Everyone of us has such pvp ships and these are only to be used, when the pvp leaders tell you to do it and then a loss is also replaced. So there is always a pvp bs etc. for you in the hangar for a fleet operation. What you do with your own ships is up to you. If you loose your hunting BS in PvP you have to look how to get a new one. So careless people who loose a lot only punish themselves. And sometimes a gank is hard to avoid, except you don't do anything in 0.0 on your own. When we are doing ganking trips into enemy territory with 10-15 people mostly in interceptors, we jump into the systems at once and immediately sent a tackler into each belt and if someone finds something, all people warp to him. Guess a victim would be not very amused, if he had to pay 100 mil isk to his alliance after being killed that way. The fine would not be for people who were ganked without warning. The fine would be for 'gross neglegence'. People who are warned in proper intel channels and just arent paying attention. If they can afford to not pay attention and get ganked surely they can afford to make a forced donation to the alliance military fund. I'd argue that against the notion that it is 'your ship and you can do what you want in it'. I mean you can take that logic pretty far. 'its my ship. i paid for it. So i should be able to kill friendlies in it if i want to'. I would say that once you join a corp or an alliance your actions then represent your corperation. Why wouldnt you hold those members accountable? If you have players that are grossly neglagent isnt it your job as their alliance mate to take action to help them correct this behavior? If so, why not a fine? After all their getting ganked reflects poorly on you being in their alliance.
Eversor	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:10:00 - [42] Great idea, makes sure people maintain good situational awareness and use all means at their disposal to make sure they know where the enemy is.
Melko	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:12:00 - [43] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! Another benifit of the 'stupid tax' is that it would drive ppl like this out of your alliance. lol I am in the alliance, seriously half the people online are either afraid to go out or in denial about what is going on. I know we can get rid of the vermin but ffs can we get organaized? we are making 1 corp look good because we dont have the leadership / willpower to fight and sustain a front. but what ever am an idiot, I just dont see how this "band-aid" will solve the real problem.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 08:20:05 Originally by: pershphanie The fine would not be for people who were ganked without warning. The fine would be for 'gross neglegence'. People who are warned in proper intel channels and just arent paying attention. Ok, maybe it's different in alliances. Our corp lives in 0.0 without alliance, we are not rich and not big. Usually not more than 20 people logged in at the same time and some people rather new to eve. Although we've friends in the area, enemy contact happens multiple times a day in our home system and the systems around it, since one of our enemy corps have their HQ only 2 systems away plus the other corps and alliances who are looking for kills in Curse some times. So only an idiot would ignore the warning, if enemies arrive. He'd be broke after a short time. I mean Curse isn't a rich area. You can't carebear around and make a lot of money with mining, while others guarantee 100% for your safety. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Darwinia D'Molle	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Darwinia D''Molle on 09/12/2005 08:26:40
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! This from one perspective could be seen as idiotic and selfish statemnet. On the other hand this might be 100 % right. so dont flame the guy becouse of it. Why?. Cause FE and PA are NOT pure PVP alliances. And same as individuals do stupid things when hostiles are near , also PVP pilots do even more stupid things. Do they pay? And how can you valuate if PvP pilot made mistake that should cost him another 100m extra? Fact is, you guys call all this corps/members to join you so the number of alliance member could be big and therefore you could continue to blabla on forums how good this war is developing for you. With this quantity you got less and less quality. So if you cant teach new ones how to act and at the same time not producing good output from PvP part of alliance, then , IMHO, its not fair to ask them to pay extra 100m. YOU KNOW yourself many of those came to earn money, they didnt come for PvP, you invited them with nice stories about "safety". At least , this is how i seen situation. I might be wrong, I might be right. And ,yep Im for correct punishment for each stupidity...EACH pilot stupidity. But in this caise I dont see it being correct --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
Alex Krause	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:57:00 - [47] This whole thing reminds me of term limits for politicians. I mean, arent elections term limits enough?
The Clash	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:28:00 - [48] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . _________________ You can suck my battleship.
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:51:00 - [49] Originally by: The Clash Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth It's no different from employing mercs.. if someone is giving you free isk.. you expected to EARN it in someway.. i guess KIA or MC would be the best to value kills for isk, but from a personal point of view i would expect SOME sort of return.. otherwise i would see it as 1 group within the corp or alliance milking the "donors" That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Darko1107	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:58:00 - [50] Edited by: Darko1107 on 09/12/2005 09:59:25 ** fining them. Just get them on ts, and shout at them, very, loudly. Then if they die again, just boot em. At the end of the day, 0 times is enough to learn your lesson, once is 2 much, and twice is taking the , you'd have to be very very VERY stupid to get ganked more than that. Alliances dont need selfish people like that around, it degrades morale, causes arguements, and above all, gives the enemy a **load of loot.
Evil Thug	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:03:00 - [51] It doesnt work. Impossible to control. ----------------------------------------------- Ash to Ash Dust to Dust
The Clash	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:44:00 - [52] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 09/12/2005 09:57:06 Originally by: The Clash Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . It's no different from employing mercs.. if someone is giving you free isk.. you expected to EARN it in someway.. i guess KIA or MC would be the best to value kills for isk, but from a personal point of view i would expect SOME sort of return.. otherwise i would see it as 1 group within the corp or alliance milking the "donors" Im afraid abuse will start very early and i can see people gettin upset . Maybe its better corps within alliance gettin isk from its members by tax or whatever and donate thatto the alliance , and maybe as an alliance build mods/ships etc and sell those on to pvp'rs at reduced price . _________________ You can suck my battleship.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:52:00 - [53] Losses usually teach miners and hunters to care, otherwise they wouldn't find the log-out button in 3 seconds after you've been there a few times.. ( Although I think this tactics sux, at least they care. ) Maybe you should hire some mercs to teach them to care. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:55:00 - [54] Originally by: The Clash Im afraid abuse will start very early and i can see people gettin upset . Maybe its better corps within alliance gettin isk from its members by tax or whatever and donate thatto the alliance , and maybe as an alliance build mods/ships etc and sell those on to pvp'rs at reduced price . Well it's hard to abuse, if there are set results.. "Your getting this isk to live in this system and kill these enemies.. If you are doing nothing more than shouting in channel 'OMG they've formed a gang and left system' i could move a co ops up there and do the same for free" and then if the "pvpers" arent doing anything useful make them give the isk back.. they arent getting paid for a holiday IMO --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
SinBin	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:28:00 - [55] What a good idea. I think money should go back to the guys fighting for the space. When you jion a corp or allaince you then choose to be part of a bigger picture & should act accordinly, there is lots of freelancer corps if peeps do just wanna mess about with a bigger corp chat. Its a very common problem & might help cut down on all the gank vids claiming to be pvp action. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:37:00 - [56] Originally by: SinBin What a good idea. I think money should go back to the guys fighting for the space. . The way I see it...Its like politicians make new taxes to take more money from simple ppl, while at the same time not doing their job in the way they should and not beeing punished for that by anyone. --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Ituralde If they get ganked because they are dumb, thats 100 mil that could go to people who are being useful to their alliance. The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. If all you had to do with that player and what was being in the same corp or alliance, and you tried that on me I'd tell you go f'yourself. And anyone stupid enough to pay that kind fine, would be a great addition to any alliance. Because everytime someone gives an easy kill to pirates they encourage them to come back, thus damaging the whole alliance. Nothing worse than painting a big "Thar Be Faction Ratters" on the map. - Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius)
Naphtalia	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:04:00 - [58] Edited by: Naphtalia on 09/12/2005 12:08:32 Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Because everytime someone gives an easy kill to pirates they encourage them to come back, thus damaging the whole alliance. Nothing worse than painting a big "Thar Be Faction Ratters" on the map. The Admiral got the point... it isn't about killboards, it isn't about making someones wallet fat.. (at first the penalty was to donate 200mil to the one that ganked you, but people thought that that wouldn't be too effective). It is about: "Not being an incentive for enemy ganksquads to come in and take you out." and "Not boosting enemy Morale" and "Not giving the enemy free isk" If there is space where there are no ratters/miners to be ganked... at all... would you go there to gank ratters/miners? Stories about the 2PM Farming of ratters has to stop :)
Estilo	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:10:00 - [59] Edited by: Estilo on 09/12/2005 12:16:34 Edited by: Estilo on 09/12/2005 12:16:12 many ways to this. fine a player; if said uber noob knows from intel given out every 5minutes that ther are hostiles around and tries to just kill d last npc rats and rightfully gets blown up. if he does it over and over..em kay..kick him out after ceo has repeatedly warned him..if ceo does nothing.kick d corp out and class them as excess weight. too many hangers on corps who do nothing but mine, npc, enrich themselves without contributing sumthin to d alliance need to be booted out, mega corps should be encouraged. FFs if u have been in 0.0 for 3months and ur still getting ganked while npcing..i'd suggest the state war academy for u again and stay there for good. maybe d exception wud be if ur warp scrambled by friggy npcs, even at dat if u cant handle them fast u shudnt be in 0.0 fighting the npcs as they are too uber for u. also it sux but when npciing in hostile space..stay aligned to warp out, for ur cans, bm it when n npc pops and warp back closer to it, no point crawling 45km for a can. hahah I R NEW FORUM BEOTCCH
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:17:00 - [60] Originally by: Naphtalia It is about: "Not being an incentive for enemy ganksquads to come in and take you out." and "Not boosting enemy Morale" and "Not giving the enemy free isk" I do have habbit of writing to much sometimes, and Im sorry for that. But line I bold and underlined couldnt just come unnoticed. Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions

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