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Cost of carelessness

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thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.08 23:44:00 - [1] Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 I have heard it suggested by various alliances, that fining careless NPC'ers or miniers is a good way to reduce carelessness amongst them.. so i'm curious what reaction if discussed here it would receive.. if the players are buying their own ships, why would the corp or alliance take it onto themselves to further add to the lose? if accepted as a good solution, and the isk generated was being passed back into the corp/alliance military, what sorted of return would the "donors" expect? personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Darpz	Posted - 2005.12.08 23:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Darpz on 08/12/2005 23:49:50 if the loss of a rating ship (mine aren't useually cheap) isn't enough incentive to not be stupid I doubt another 100M would. Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi CCP will nerf this probably, but hey, worth a try so your saying I should of kept my mouth shut? Yup.
Kaleeb	Posted - 2005.12.08 23:52:00 - [3] Tbh most big corps have tax's and conq stations to make money, If an alliance wanted to fine me for losing a ship i`d tell them to **** off. Unless it was during an alliance op or something where all hands are needed on deck. Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this?
Vina	Posted - 2005.12.08 23:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? Gee I wonder... ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Alex Krause	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? Gee I wonder...
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:09:00 - [6] Edited by: thoth foc on 09/12/2005 00:09:30 Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? since it didnt effect me directly, i thought a general discussion more appropriate --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:10:00 - [7] Edited by: Jherek Cornelian on 09/12/2005 00:12:13 unsuprisingly I have quite a few ideas for you thoth. All of which would leave me with a ban Which various alliances would dare to fine careless NPCer's ?? If I was part of one of these alliances I would leave immediately, the very gall of some people. Poncing around in faction heavy battleships NPCing while enemies are in system should be encouraged throughout the entire alliance. I will of course be writing to my MP about this outrage. Personally for every 100 mill received by these rotters I would expect to see at least an oven ready turkey at christmas or at the very least a nice box of christmas *****ers. I really glad you raised this issue on eve-o it certainly is an interesting one. edit Christmas Crac.kers are not offensive yo ho ho
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:19:00 - [8] I have heard of this policy and I've been seeking to have it confirmed, not because I disbelieve it is happening, that because it's just completely foreign to me that a) people would pay it and b) things were in such a state as to have such a policy imposed on anyone, corp or alliance. Hats off to whoever thought of it, because if people don't learn from their own stupidity they may well learn when they become very, very poor. And, well, the faster you can make the stupid, poor, the less kills they are likely to feed your enemy. A fool and his money are easily parted, as they say. Still find it amazing that such a policy is required, though. Originally by: Thomas Jefferson A society that will trade a little liberty for a little security will lose both and deserve neither.
Amthrianius	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:20:00 - [9] I find it most hilarious today that the people who the money goes to, just did the same thing as what they are fining people for today. ---------------
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Alex Krause Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? Gee I wonder... You seem to pop up on every thread, very brave of you to go to all the trouble of making an alt character then putting one line answers all over eve-o. If your so - I'm sorry I hate using this expression but it's the only language you'll understand - If your so 'uber' post with your main.
FowlPlayChiken	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:23:00 - [11] this is the most subtle smack of f-e alliance ive yet seen! nice one mate. bawk!
Blacklight	Posted - 2005.12.09 00:25:00 - [12] Any alliance with players daft enough to need this additional 'incentive' to not get ganked needs to either lose those players, disband or get the hell out of 0.0. Why keep a load of dead wood on your books? Eve Blacklight Style
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:07:00 - [13] Originally by: FowlPlayChiken this is the most subtle smack of f-e alliance ive yet seen! nice one mate. bawk! I dont consider this smack at all.
Bracius	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:08:00 - [14] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 I have heard it suggested by various alliances, that fining careless NPC'ers or miniers is a good way to reduce carelessness amongst them.. so i'm curious what reaction if discussed here it would receive.. if the players are buying their own ships, why would the corp or alliance take it onto themselves to further add to the lose? if accepted as a good solution, and the isk generated was being passed back into the corp/alliance military, what sorted of return would the "donors" expect? personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth Dunno, sometimes i wish i would have carebearkiller doomsday weapon, but in general it is hard to get any reasonable balance. I don't really feel like camping something to get a kill. And ganking stuff around doesn't really count for those 100mil isk i got for his 'protection'. But i bet you are not really in position to talk about careless carebears? I just contributed 0 to this topic :)
Naphtalia	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:08:00 - [15] I think this is a totally stupid idea, if you pay for your own ship it is your own choice to lose it or not, none of the biz to the alliance! The person that came up with this should be kicked from the alliance.
Ituralde	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:10:00 - [16] If they get ganked because they are dumb, thats 100 mil that could go to people who are being useful to their alliance. After all, why cull the stupid when you can make money off of it? Sure, an enemy might get to brag on their 'Perfect' killboards about their l337ness, but hey, that's a free 100 mil for the rest of the alliance. Man, whoever came up with this plan must have been incredibly brilliant. In fact, I want to know who that person is and join their alliance, because clearly it must be the most amazing alliance ever. Oh wait. Thanks to ATUK and the .5. to sharing the wisdom imparted on them by others with the rest of the EVE community. So modest to make their flame, that is to say, wisdom, under the modest cause of idle curiosity. Really, ATUK, if you are that curious, just check your spies and TS spies to find out what you want to know. With all of them that you have everywhere you guys really probably do not even need to use the forums. Maybe if you want to see those kills per every 100 mil ISK then you can try flying without using spies when you outnumber the enemy significantly. Not that the .5. would ever do something of the sort... To the rest of the EVE community, learn to flame like thoth, his buddies in ATUK and the rest of the .5. do, they make it at least well worth responding to; many denizens of the forums could learn much.
Naphtalia	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:12:00 - [17] Ituralde, keep it nice.. totfoc wasn't smacking/flaming :)
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 01:21:00 - [18] Well my opinion on the subject is that this does a few positive things for the alliance. It taxes people who are not making a contribution and diverts that money to people who are. Assuming the money is going to a ship replacement progream for your pvpers or some other place that helps your alliance. It keeps people on their toes. It helps make people you who are having a negitive effect on your alliance pay closer attention and possibly get them more interested in having a positive effect on your alliance. And finally it will indentify and weed out people who just arent prepared for 0.0 survival yet. It's definatly not a nice thing to do. However I do believe it is something that could immediatly benifit an alliance in a postive way.
Metal Dude	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:10:00 - [19] My take on this subject is that thatÆs EVE communism, which I theory should work very well. However, with corruption, itÆs always the leaders that get rich off of the little people and before you know it, they are gone with all of the money. Remember CA? Remember all the ****ing when they broke up about where all the isk and minerals went? How about FA and their passport system? Do you think anybody other then the leaders seen any of that money? ThereÆs countless others that IÆm sure can tell you how they were used by their corp or alliance with taxes and fees and at the end, they never received anything. So if you want communism in your allaince/corp, then donÆt expect to not be disappointed later on when you remember this post. The truth will set you free Proud to be ATUK *
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:35:00 - [20] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 I have heard it suggested by various alliances, that fining careless NPC'ers or miniers is a good way to reduce carelessness amongst them.. so i'm curious what reaction if discussed here it would receive.. if the players are buying their own ships, why would the corp or alliance take it onto themselves to further add to the lose? if accepted as a good solution, and the isk generated was being passed back into the corp/alliance military, what sorted of return would the "donors" expect? personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth Thoth... the same standards that work for us do not work for everyone else.Not trying to be elitist, but our corps expect a certain level of "proficency" from 0.0 pilots. Ie. if we lost 3-4 BSes in the space of 10 mins just goofing around.. someone would be having a word with the directors the next morning heh. Some people CAN and HAVE learned from their mistake. Ie. in one incident with Supremacy, we just had a merger and had some people who were very new to pvping in the corp at the time. There was no one from pre merger Supremacy available at the time and we lost 3 BSes to Painball in the space of 4 minutes. However they LEARNED from their mistakes very quickly (after some advice from the veterans) and never let the incident repeat itself again. Today these people have the same level of proficency that we would expect from anyone in our alliance and I'm very proud to say that theve come a long way. On the other hand there are people who refuse to learn and truck about 0.0 like its their own back yard, refuse to obey the simple rules of surival and then complain when they get ganked solo flying their BS with faction loot or their hauler full of zyd. No offense but the "FAT" alliances with alot of freeloading members have this problem. FOE had some dude complaining about being unable to move his covetor up to jzv during the wars. The bigger the alliances get # of corps wise the more "fluff" makes it into the alliance. The ideal alliance atm seems to be a small # of self sufficent Megacorps. Not a large number of small corps. Ofc this makes it more prone to factions forming within alliances such as seen by the split in the Big Blue alliance.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:44:00 - [21] Okay say someone is ratting in 0.0 in a tier 2 BS with a highend fitting. A covert op ship jumps in, and in about a min or so finds his belt. The gank gang then jumps in and kills him. The ratter looses 200M-500M in mods and on top of that you want to fine him another 100M? Who decides if they were just unlucky or if they were careless? Then how would you decide that if in, say a fleet engagement someone didnt fit sensor boosters and got damped or forgot NOS or drones and got ganked, would they be fined for the loss of their ship. Or maybe they just didnt align to the right moon for a gang warp, or jumped in too soon or too slow. I got a feeling sht would hit the fan kinda quick. Seems a little harsh. Seems a little pyramid-like* to me. So do tell, what alliance has this in place?
Tadis	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:51:00 - [22] Question: How many carebears needed to check local and use intel? Answer: nobody knows, they havnt managed it yet :) Jokes aside usually a talking down from their CEO should be enough. Usually a explanation on recruitment would be the best policy of avoiding it, but some people just dont listen or use their brains.
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Okay say someone is ratting in 0.0 in a tier 2 BS with a highend fitting. A covert op ship jumps in, and in about a min or so finds his belt. The gank gang then jumps in and kills him. The ratter looses 200M-500M in mods and on top of that you want to fine him another 100M? Who decides if they were just unlucky or if they were careless? Then how would you decide that if in, say a fleet engagement someone didnt fit sensor boosters and got damped or forgot NOS or drones and got ganked, would they be fined for the loss of their ship. Or maybe they just didnt align to the right moon for a gang warp, or jumped in too soon or too slow. I got a feeling sht would hit the fan kinda quick. Seems a little harsh. Seems a little pyramid-like* to me. So do tell, what alliance has this in place? I'm not sure if im applying my alliance standards to yours. The minute you see a single hostile in local why are you still sitting there ratting? Get to a safespot and determine his shiptype. Fleet engagement setups are standard setups... if you really dont know what it is, ask your CEO... if he doesnt know... leave the alliance. All the rest is just basic discipline and knowledge that should be expected of any pilot involved in pvp.
Recluse Viramor	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Okay say someone is ratting in 0.0 in a tier 2 BS with a highend fitting. A covert op ship jumps in, and in about a min or so finds his belt. The gank gang then jumps in and kills him. The ratter looses 200M-500M in mods and on top of that you want to fine him another 100M? Who decides if they were just unlucky or if they were careless? Then how would you decide that if in, say a fleet engagement someone didnt fit sensor boosters and got damped or forgot NOS or drones and got ganked, would they be fined for the loss of their ship. Or maybe they just didnt align to the right moon for a gang warp, or jumped in too soon or too slow. I got a feeling sht would hit the fan kinda quick. Seems a little harsh. Seems a little pyramid-like* to me. So do tell, what alliance has this in place? My opinion on this matter is by no means official in any capacity. This whole fine thing applies only to known hostiles that have been called out in intel channels, if someone gets ganked after warnigns have gone out, then such a fine would apply.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 02:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Ituralde If they get ganked because they are dumb, thats 100 mil that could go to people who are being useful to their alliance. The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. If all you had to do with that player and what was being in the same corp or alliance, and you tried that on me I'd tell you go f'yourself. And anyone stupid enough to pay that kind fine, would be a great addition to any alliance.
Melko	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:06:00 - [26] I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!!
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:09:00 - [27] Originally by: SengH Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Okay say someone is ratting in 0.0 in a tier 2 BS with a highend fitting. A covert op ship jumps in, and in about a min or so finds his belt. The gank gang then jumps in and kills him. The ratter looses 200M-500M in mods and on top of that you want to fine him another 100M? Who decides if they were just unlucky or if they were careless? Then how would you decide that if in, say a fleet engagement someone didnt fit sensor boosters and got damped or forgot NOS or drones and got ganked, would they be fined for the loss of their ship. Or maybe they just didnt align to the right moon for a gang warp, or jumped in too soon or too slow. I got a feeling sht would hit the fan kinda quick. Seems a little harsh. Seems a little pyramid-like* to me. So do tell, what alliance has this in place? I'm not sure if im applying my alliance standards to yours. The minute you see a single hostile in local why are you still sitting there ratting? Get to a safespot and determine his shiptype. Fleet engagement setups are standard setups... if you really dont know what it is, ask your CEO... if he doesnt know... leave the alliance. All the rest is just basic discipline and knowledge that should be expected of any pilot involved in pvp. I understand your logic. I just disagree with it. If people are f'n around when they shouldnt be, on say on a combat op. and are webbing each other waiting for the order to jump. Or scramming each other when alinging to warp. Then those people need to be podded and then kicked from the corp/alliance. But anyone one can get ganked because they are careless. It happens to the best of PvP'rs. The problem I see is there are going to be exceptions and the ones to get away with out paying are going to be someones buddy. Or have a nice full set of lips. People are going to get played as favorites and others wont, and it will come back and bite you in the ass. If you really think they are that noob for your alliance that they need to be fined, then they really just need to be kicked.
Eskiban Vlasic	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:22:00 - [28] Fining someone for losing an alliance ship due to their own stupidity is fine. Fining someone for losing THEIR OWN ship is completely asinine. - Vlasic of TW Fame TribalWar, INC Sister corp to FREE Explorer
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.09 03:50:00 - [29] Edited by: SengH on 09/12/2005 03:52:04 I suppose I worded my reply a bit differently. In general there are 3 types of reasons why people lose ships in 0.0. Incompetence - Hate to say this but some people are just not cut out for life in 0.0. It would be far more benifitial for the alliance to just have them sit in empire. These are the people that think travelling setups involve flying BSes around with named long range guns with faction loot equipped, no stabs and no scouts. No matter how much you explain to these guys they will not watch local and will blindly jump into a gatecamp even though theres a big fat blob of 40+ ships killed in the last hour on the map. They keep losing ships over and over again Carelessness - Occasionally people just dont use the tools available to them. They dont have the appropriate channels open or arent on TS. Theres not much difference though between extreme carelessness and incompetence. Unlucky - There are some situations when you just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Ie. your scrambled and no one saw the hostile fleet. Local shoots up and within 60s their pounding on you and your wallet starts flashing. The problem with this plan is that you bag the unlucky guys along with the rest. But for "that alliances" leadership it seems eliminating 2 evils at the cost of the unlucky guys is worth it. Edit: I cant say its the best solution but it surely is one. Its the alliance leaders decision to make, and if they deem the benifits > cost, its thier call. The members of the alliance can vote with their feet.
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 05:16:00 - [30] Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 09/12/2005 03:52:04 I suppose I worded my reply a bit differently. In general there are 3 types of reasons why people lose ships in 0.0. Incompetence - Hate to say this but some people are just not cut out for life in 0.0. It would be far more benifitial for the alliance to just have them sit in empire. These are the people that think travelling setups involve flying BSes around with named long range guns with faction loot equipped, no stabs and no scouts. No matter how much you explain to these guys they will not watch local and will blindly jump into a gatecamp even though theres a big fat blob of 40+ ships killed in the last hour on the map. They keep losing ships over and over again Carelessness - Occasionally people just dont use the tools available to them. They dont have the appropriate channels open or arent on TS. Theres not much difference though between extreme carelessness and incompetence. Unlucky - There are some situations when you just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Ie. your scrambled and no one saw the hostile fleet. Local shoots up and within 60s their pounding on you and your wallet starts flashing. The problem with this plan is that you bag the unlucky guys along with the rest. But for "that alliances" leadership it seems eliminating 2 evils at the cost of the unlucky guys is worth it. Edit: I cant say its the best solution but it surely is one. Its the alliance leaders decision to make, and if they deem the benifits > cost, its thier call. The members of the alliance can vote with their feet. I agree with this assesment. Which is why in order to do this you would need to assign people to determain whether or not the accident could have been avoided. Blindly fining everyone who loses a ship is obvoisly not a good idea.
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 05:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. By that logic a city shouldnt give parking tickets because they did not buy my car for me. Mainly this fine serves as a detourent.
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 05:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! Another benifit of the 'stupid tax' is that it would drive ppl like this out of your alliance.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:23:00 - [33] Originally by: pershphanie I agree with this assesment. Which is why in order to do this you would need to assign people to determain whether or not the accident could have been avoided. Blindly fining everyone who loses a ship is obvoisly not a good idea. QFT And this is why I say I disagree with it. It's going to be so hard to be objective and unbiased. I really dont think a corp or alliance can do it, I really dont. Its going to create some very bad feelings. Its beacuse all three situations will be looked at from a different perspective based on those who were and wernt involved. Example: Incompetence A memeber was ratting and a triple commander spawn spawned, the memeber was balancing cap, guns, drones, blah blah blah, trying to take it down. Well just his bad luck an enemy cover ops jumped in and found him ratting. Unless the guy seen him show up in local and SS right away hes f'd. And chances are that with "fighting the good NPC fight" he missed the bad guy jumping in. Now from everyone else prespective he wasnt watching local and should have known better, the dumbass-fine him, but from the ratters perspective he was just unlucky. So do you believe him and let it slide or fine him? Trust me the first person that you make an exception for, everyone after him will call bullsht. And rightly so. Then you may have the problem of say a FC making a stupid choice. Does he get fined? If I was in your corp with the threat of me making a mistake and being fined I would sure a F' expect the FC to pay a fine for every ship lost because of his incompetence. Hell for that matter I expect it of the CEO too. Everyone has to play by the same rules, or the rules mean nothing.* I really suggest you dont open that pandora's box. Its not worth it. I'm not trying to tell you how to run your corp, just trying to show objective outside view of why it could/will end up being a bad idea. Its all about perspective, and everyone will see it differently.
Malken	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! ever considered that they are there because there are people like you in the opposing alliance who always expects others to fight for you and defend you so you can make alot of isk for yourself. idiot.
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:36:00 - [35] I can't imagine anyone who would be dumb enough to pay this fee for losing their own ship. If asked to pay that, I'd immediately leave such corp/alliance after telling them to GFY...
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:44:00 - [36] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. By that logic a city shouldnt give parking tickets because they did not buy my car for me. Mainly this fine serves as a detourent. Thats a very bad example. I would be more relevent to say that the city has a right to ticket me if someone steals my car and I didnt have a car alarm. Quote: But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. Trust me anyone who thinks I owe them money for me losing my ship. Is going to get a very blunt "shove it up your ass" statement from me.
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:46:00 - [37] Edited by: SengH on 09/12/2005 06:46:54 I dunno the best saying to summarize this would be you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. If the member refuses to pay up and the CEO refuses to pay the fine or kick the member because he disagrees with your assement. Where do you go from there? You kick the corp? I dont see that being very good morale wise.
Vina	Posted - 2005.12.09 06:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian Originally by: Alex Krause Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kaleeb Care to elaborate which alliance are suggesting this? Gee I wonder... You seem to pop up on every thread, very brave of you to go to all the trouble of making an alt character then putting one line answers all over eve-o. If your so - I'm sorry I hate using this expression but it's the only language you'll understand - If your so 'uber' post with your main. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Yea sure, I'm an alt. http://www.siegedom.com/Files/Eve/EveTempestHax.jpg I guess the fact that my sigpic says KAYOSONI in it isn't a clue? http://www.siegedom.com/Files/Eve/EveNyuu3.jpg ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:06:00 - [39] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 07:09:15 Sounds to me that it's more an attempt to reduce the number of losses on the killboard, so that the enemies can't brag about them. I see no sense in it, except that it's a ship that has been paid by the alliance or corp. Everyone of us has such pvp ships and these are only to be used, when the pvp leaders tell you to do it and then a loss is also replaced. So there is always a pvp bs etc. for you in the hangar for a fleet operation. What you do with your own ships is up to you. If you loose your hunting BS in PvP you have to look how to get a new one. So careless people who loose a lot only punish themselves. And sometimes a gank is hard to avoid, except you don't do anything in 0.0 on your own. When we are doing ganking trips into enemy territory with 10-15 people mostly in interceptors, we jump into the systems at once and immediately sent a tackler into each belt and if someone finds something, all people warp to him. Guess a victim would be not very amused, if he had to pay 100 mil isk to his alliance after being killed that way. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Fred0	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:17:00 - [40] Edited by: Fred0 on 09/12/2005 07:23:55 Good idea tbh. Every fight that happens knowingly and consentingly should be excluded ofcourse. But the rest needs to be weeded out and IF harsh punishments for being silly and getting ganked alone by 15 will make sure it doesn't happen again, then I'm all for it. Ofcourse the best thing would just be if the ganked ones suddenly became abit brighter... Or maybe recruitment procedures should be tightened instead of recruiting fools and then fining them.. Hmmm, now i see...
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.12.09 07:29:00 - [41] Edited by: pershphanie on 09/12/2005 07:30:59 Originally by: Snake Jankins Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 07:09:15 Sounds to me that it's more an attempt to reduce the number of losses on the killboard, so that the enemies can't brag about them. I see no sense in it, except that it's a ship that has been paid by the alliance or corp. Everyone of us has such pvp ships and these are only to be used, when the pvp leaders tell you to do it and then a loss is also replaced. So there is always a pvp bs etc. for you in the hangar for a fleet operation. What you do with your own ships is up to you. If you loose your hunting BS in PvP you have to look how to get a new one. So careless people who loose a lot only punish themselves. And sometimes a gank is hard to avoid, except you don't do anything in 0.0 on your own. When we are doing ganking trips into enemy territory with 10-15 people mostly in interceptors, we jump into the systems at once and immediately sent a tackler into each belt and if someone finds something, all people warp to him. Guess a victim would be not very amused, if he had to pay 100 mil isk to his alliance after being killed that way. The fine would not be for people who were ganked without warning. The fine would be for 'gross neglegence'. People who are warned in proper intel channels and just arent paying attention. If they can afford to not pay attention and get ganked surely they can afford to make a forced donation to the alliance military fund. I'd argue that against the notion that it is 'your ship and you can do what you want in it'. I mean you can take that logic pretty far. 'its my ship. i paid for it. So i should be able to kill friendlies in it if i want to'. I would say that once you join a corp or an alliance your actions then represent your corperation. Why wouldnt you hold those members accountable? If you have players that are grossly neglagent isnt it your job as their alliance mate to take action to help them correct this behavior? If so, why not a fine? After all their getting ganked reflects poorly on you being in their alliance.
Eversor	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:10:00 - [42] Great idea, makes sure people maintain good situational awareness and use all means at their disposal to make sure they know where the enemy is.
Melko	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:12:00 - [43] Originally by: pershphanie Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! Another benifit of the 'stupid tax' is that it would drive ppl like this out of your alliance. lol I am in the alliance, seriously half the people online are either afraid to go out or in denial about what is going on. I know we can get rid of the vermin but ffs can we get organaized? we are making 1 corp look good because we dont have the leadership / willpower to fight and sustain a front. but what ever am an idiot, I just dont see how this "band-aid" will solve the real problem.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 09/12/2005 08:20:05 Originally by: pershphanie The fine would not be for people who were ganked without warning. The fine would be for 'gross neglegence'. People who are warned in proper intel channels and just arent paying attention. Ok, maybe it's different in alliances. Our corp lives in 0.0 without alliance, we are not rich and not big. Usually not more than 20 people logged in at the same time and some people rather new to eve. Although we've friends in the area, enemy contact happens multiple times a day in our home system and the systems around it, since one of our enemy corps have their HQ only 2 systems away plus the other corps and alliances who are looking for kills in Curse some times. So only an idiot would ignore the warning, if enemies arrive. He'd be broke after a short time. I mean Curse isn't a rich area. You can't carebear around and make a lot of money with mining, while others guarantee 100% for your safety. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Darwinia D'Molle	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:26:00 - [45] Edited by: Darwinia D''Molle on 09/12/2005 08:26:40
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! This from one perspective could be seen as idiotic and selfish statemnet. On the other hand this might be 100 % right. so dont flame the guy becouse of it. Why?. Cause FE and PA are NOT pure PVP alliances. And same as individuals do stupid things when hostiles are near , also PVP pilots do even more stupid things. Do they pay? And how can you valuate if PvP pilot made mistake that should cost him another 100m extra? Fact is, you guys call all this corps/members to join you so the number of alliance member could be big and therefore you could continue to blabla on forums how good this war is developing for you. With this quantity you got less and less quality. So if you cant teach new ones how to act and at the same time not producing good output from PvP part of alliance, then , IMHO, its not fair to ask them to pay extra 100m. YOU KNOW yourself many of those came to earn money, they didnt come for PvP, you invited them with nice stories about "safety". At least , this is how i seen situation. I might be wrong, I might be right. And ,yep Im for correct punishment for each stupidity...EACH pilot stupidity. But in this caise I dont see it being correct --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
Alex Krause	Posted - 2005.12.09 08:57:00 - [47] This whole thing reminds me of term limits for politicians. I mean, arent elections term limits enough?
The Clash	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:28:00 - [48] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . _________________ You can suck my battleship.
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:51:00 - [49] Originally by: The Clash Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth It's no different from employing mercs.. if someone is giving you free isk.. you expected to EARN it in someway.. i guess KIA or MC would be the best to value kills for isk, but from a personal point of view i would expect SOME sort of return.. otherwise i would see it as 1 group within the corp or alliance milking the "donors" That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Darko1107	Posted - 2005.12.09 09:58:00 - [50] Edited by: Darko1107 on 09/12/2005 09:59:25 ** fining them. Just get them on ts, and shout at them, very, loudly. Then if they die again, just boot em. At the end of the day, 0 times is enough to learn your lesson, once is 2 much, and twice is taking the , you'd have to be very very VERY stupid to get ganked more than that. Alliances dont need selfish people like that around, it degrades morale, causes arguements, and above all, gives the enemy a **load of loot.
Evil Thug	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:03:00 - [51] It doesnt work. Impossible to control. ----------------------------------------------- Ash to Ash Dust to Dust
The Clash	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:44:00 - [52] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 09/12/2005 09:57:06 Originally by: The Clash Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 08/12/2005 23:46:32 personnally, for every 100 mill received by these ppl, i would expect to see at least 1 BS or HAC kill, would this be a view shared by everyone? any other ideas? --thoth That would turn teh game into a job , well it feel like that to me if you put it that way . " You earned some isk , now you have to bring me a killmail " I dont think it ever will work , maybe for a few or just a short time . People will go like : its my game , my money etc . Eventually it will all sort themselves out , if they loose enuff teh way you describe they'll leave and maybe a new guy comes in place who isnt so careless . But i doubt it tbh . It always will go like that . It's no different from employing mercs.. if someone is giving you free isk.. you expected to EARN it in someway.. i guess KIA or MC would be the best to value kills for isk, but from a personal point of view i would expect SOME sort of return.. otherwise i would see it as 1 group within the corp or alliance milking the "donors" Im afraid abuse will start very early and i can see people gettin upset . Maybe its better corps within alliance gettin isk from its members by tax or whatever and donate thatto the alliance , and maybe as an alliance build mods/ships etc and sell those on to pvp'rs at reduced price . _________________ You can suck my battleship.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:52:00 - [53] Losses usually teach miners and hunters to care, otherwise they wouldn't find the log-out button in 3 seconds after you've been there a few times.. ( Although I think this tactics sux, at least they care. ) Maybe you should hire some mercs to teach them to care. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 10:55:00 - [54] Originally by: The Clash Im afraid abuse will start very early and i can see people gettin upset . Maybe its better corps within alliance gettin isk from its members by tax or whatever and donate thatto the alliance , and maybe as an alliance build mods/ships etc and sell those on to pvp'rs at reduced price . Well it's hard to abuse, if there are set results.. "Your getting this isk to live in this system and kill these enemies.. If you are doing nothing more than shouting in channel 'OMG they've formed a gang and left system' i could move a co ops up there and do the same for free" and then if the "pvpers" arent doing anything useful make them give the isk back.. they arent getting paid for a holiday IMO --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
SinBin	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:28:00 - [55] What a good idea. I think money should go back to the guys fighting for the space. When you jion a corp or allaince you then choose to be part of a bigger picture & should act accordinly, there is lots of freelancer corps if peeps do just wanna mess about with a bigger corp chat. Its a very common problem & might help cut down on all the gank vids claiming to be pvp action. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:37:00 - [56] Originally by: SinBin What a good idea. I think money should go back to the guys fighting for the space. . The way I see it...Its like politicians make new taxes to take more money from simple ppl, while at the same time not doing their job in the way they should and not beeing punished for that by anyone. --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2005.12.09 11:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Ituralde If they get ganked because they are dumb, thats 100 mil that could go to people who are being useful to their alliance. The thing is it was never your 100M to begin with. Or your ship. Or your mods. If it was your corps ship and someone lost it because they did something stupid. Hell yeah fine them for the insurance and then some. And then kick them from the corp. But if you've had no investment in that ship, then you have no right to ask for compensation for them losing it. If all you had to do with that player and what was being in the same corp or alliance, and you tried that on me I'd tell you go f'yourself. And anyone stupid enough to pay that kind fine, would be a great addition to any alliance. Because everytime someone gives an easy kill to pirates they encourage them to come back, thus damaging the whole alliance. Nothing worse than painting a big "Thar Be Faction Ratters" on the map. - Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius)
Naphtalia	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:04:00 - [58] Edited by: Naphtalia on 09/12/2005 12:08:32 Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Because everytime someone gives an easy kill to pirates they encourage them to come back, thus damaging the whole alliance. Nothing worse than painting a big "Thar Be Faction Ratters" on the map. The Admiral got the point... it isn't about killboards, it isn't about making someones wallet fat.. (at first the penalty was to donate 200mil to the one that ganked you, but people thought that that wouldn't be too effective). It is about: "Not being an incentive for enemy ganksquads to come in and take you out." and "Not boosting enemy Morale" and "Not giving the enemy free isk" If there is space where there are no ratters/miners to be ganked... at all... would you go there to gank ratters/miners? Stories about the 2PM Farming of ratters has to stop :)
Estilo	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:10:00 - [59] Edited by: Estilo on 09/12/2005 12:16:34 Edited by: Estilo on 09/12/2005 12:16:12 many ways to this. fine a player; if said uber noob knows from intel given out every 5minutes that ther are hostiles around and tries to just kill d last npc rats and rightfully gets blown up. if he does it over and over..em kay..kick him out after ceo has repeatedly warned him..if ceo does nothing.kick d corp out and class them as excess weight. too many hangers on corps who do nothing but mine, npc, enrich themselves without contributing sumthin to d alliance need to be booted out, mega corps should be encouraged. FFs if u have been in 0.0 for 3months and ur still getting ganked while npcing..i'd suggest the state war academy for u again and stay there for good. maybe d exception wud be if ur warp scrambled by friggy npcs, even at dat if u cant handle them fast u shudnt be in 0.0 fighting the npcs as they are too uber for u. also it sux but when npciing in hostile space..stay aligned to warp out, for ur cans, bm it when n npc pops and warp back closer to it, no point crawling 45km for a can. hahah I R NEW FORUM BEOTCCH
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:17:00 - [60] Originally by: Naphtalia It is about: "Not being an incentive for enemy ganksquads to come in and take you out." and "Not boosting enemy Morale" and "Not giving the enemy free isk" I do have habbit of writing to much sometimes, and Im sorry for that. But line I bold and underlined couldnt just come unnoticed. Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
slothe	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:19:00 - [61] Anyone stupid enough to say they got killed while NPCing knowing they face a 100mill isk fine is stupid enough to deserve that fine. imho it would be interesting if the mods imposed a 100mill isk fine for anyone who posted smack, drunken rants, stupid posts, alt posts etc. then we shall see who suffers ;)
Dracolich	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Malken Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! ever considered that they are there because there are people like you in the opposing alliance who always expects others to fight for you and defend you so you can make alot of isk for yourself. idiot. I agree here with Malken on this one.. And not chking local at all times when in 0.0 and/or at war, is just well.. dumb to say the least. _______________________________________
Dracolich	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:34:00 - [63] Originally by: slothe Anyone stupid enough to say they got killed while NPCing knowing they face a 100mill isk fine is stupid enough to deserve that fine. Honesty and acknowledgement that you have f***ed up, is stupidity? _______________________________________
Naphtalia	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:38:00 - [64] Originally by: Darcuese Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question Fair question.. but I will have to return the question I am afraid... what boosts your morale more... ganking a npc raven in a belt that was warned of you incoming with 500m in faction loot... or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. The pilots that fought in IMK yesterday were not all part of some 'pvp squad' but tried to fight and screwed up... true.. I am sad it happened... So what boosts your morale more? :)
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 12:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Naphtalia Fair question.. but I will have to return the question I am afraid... what boosts your morale more... ganking a npc raven in a belt that was warned of you incoming with 500m in faction loot... or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. The pilots that fought in IMK yesterday were not all part of some 'pvp squad' but tried to fight and screwed up... true.. I am sad it happened... So what boosts your morale more? :) fleet and not Raven with faction loot to be honest. Why?. Cause im still young and give all loot that i pick to corp hangar.hehe. Honestly. You can beliave me or not, but i dont chaise that can after we shoot down ship/s. If im close, ok, if im not close..ok too. It might be stupid and naive, but Im humble guy and have enough for my needs. Fleet/gang fight are far more fun...no matter who won or lost and how expirianced or not FC's are. At least thats my opinion and my joy --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
quellious	Posted - 2005.12.09 13:00:00 - [66] Hi, I personnaly have a simple very efficient way to deal with 'careless' pilots... When a see such a pilot in space (Indus without BMs, Alone BS, Alone Miner, Mining operation that does not respond to local check): The 1st time it happen, i scramble, webb, and explain that an hostile may be able to do the same as me ... but kill him. The 2nd time, i scamble, webb and kill ship. The 3rd time i pod kill also. I never had to podkill yet. The reason is simple: i do not want to let hostile having fun/mail killing our pilots. If the 'careless' appear to be able to escape it just mean that he's skilled enough to afford to 'look like' careless. Ciao.
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 13:01:00 - [67] Originally by: Naphtalia So what boosts your morale more? :) A gank is only a gank.. Having the F-E "pvper's" hide in thier pos in h-pa every nite while we wander about tribute puts a smile on my face :) --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.12.09 13:03:00 - [68] Edited by: Antoinette Civari on 09/12/2005 13:03:17 Originally by: Naphtalia or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. Hehe, this one most definitely. I'd be laughing all night.
Monkey Time	Posted - 2005.12.09 14:39:00 - [69] Originally by: Naphtalia Originally by: Darcuese Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question Fair question.. but I will have to return the question I am afraid... what boosts your morale more... ganking a npc raven in a belt that was warned of you incoming with 500m in faction loot... or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. The pilots that fought in IMK yesterday were not all part of some 'pvp squad' but tried to fight and screwed up... true.. I am sad it happened... So what boosts your morale more? :) naphtalia, those "inexperienced" pvp'rs came and fought us. They actually jumped into us and took us on. Sure they were unorganised but im sure they learnt from it and next time they will be better. They did something that MLM, in h-pa, would never do - they jumped in and took on our fleet. Respect to them for doing it.
Ku'Gras	Posted - 2005.12.09 14:50:00 - [70] Originally by: Darko1107 Edited by: Darko1107 on 09/12/2005 09:59:25 ** fining them. Just get them on ts, and shout at them, very, loudly. Then if they die again, just boot em. At the end of the day, 0 times is enough to learn your lesson, once is 2 much, and twice is taking the , you'd have to be very very VERY stupid to get ganked more than that. Alliances dont need selfish people like that around, it degrades morale, causes arguements, and above all, gives the enemy a **load of loot. QFT. I can't believe this really is a discussion. Ofc take into account what their function are in the corp (they need to freight corp stuff through chokepoints to put in corp hangar?) and their kill to loss ratio.
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 14:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Monkey Time Originally by: Naphtalia Originally by: Darcuese Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question Fair question.. but I will have to return the question I am afraid... what boosts your morale more... ganking a npc raven in a belt that was warned of you incoming with 500m in faction loot... or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. The pilots that fought in IMK yesterday were not all part of some 'pvp squad' but tried to fight and screwed up... true.. I am sad it happened... So what boosts your morale more? :) naphtalia, those "inexperienced" pvp'rs came and fought us. They actually jumped into us and took us on. Sure they were unorganised but im sure they learnt from it and next time they will be better. They did something that MLM, in h-pa, would never do - they jumped in and took on our fleet. Respect to them for doing it. Monkey, you all station hug until you outnumber us, you come out in 2's or 3's we warp in and you dock. Eventually you get enough battleships to fight us, then you get more battleships and more. At this point you all sit outside the station at insta dock range and smack us for not attacking. When we do attack as soon as we target someone they insta dock. We are not leaving H-PA mate and no amount of threads rubbishing us in an attempt for you to shame us out is going to work. You have manpower to remove us, you pull in people from wow as soon as we get even numbers. But we are still here, cya tonight same time same place
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:13:00 - [72] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian We are not leaving H-PA mate and no amount of threads rubbishing us in an attempt for you to shame us out is going to work. Your tactics are ofc your own choice, but you usually have what 6 or 8 BS (+ support) parked in ur pos? and IMK gang had what 6 BS (+ support) last nite.. if you'd helped them.. we would have had a good even fight.. instead you left them to die.. Originally by: Jherek Cornelian You have manpower to remove us Since your not doing anything why bother? As you say.. we can basically ignore you in local.. --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:17:00 - [73] So blow up our PoS with your almight PvP powah and kill us? I mean, with your spies all over the place you HAVE to know it's not properly defended. So far all I see is inties @400k, a Covert thinking he's clever by naming our fleet composition in local and battleships/HACS undocking and redocking. Until you have 20 to our 7 and then start smacking we don't fight. God, you must be proud of yourself.
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:21:00 - [74] Quote: Your tactics are ofc your own choice, but you usually have what 6 or 8 BS (+ support) parked in ur pos? and IMK gang had what 6 BS (+ support) last nite.. if you'd helped them.. we would have had a good even fight.. instead you left them to die.. There is not such thing as a good fight with [5]. You only fight when you are 100% sure you can win. And win big, so that your killboards look good and you can cheastbeat on the forums. If for some reason the enemy outsmarted you and lured you into an (omg!) even battle, you blame lag, drones and CCP. Then you ALSO go to the forum and tell the enemy they are lame for whatever reason and that you planned to lose anyway because 'you jumped in like you always do and only wanted a fight'. Seriously, go **** yourself.
Aman Sul	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:27:00 - [75] Edited by: Aman Sul on 09/12/2005 15:31:41 Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So blow up our PoS with your almight PvP powah and kill us? I mean, with your spies all over the place you HAVE to know it's not properly defended. So far all I see is inties @400k, a Covert thinking he's clever by naming our fleet composition in local and battleships/HACS undocking and redocking. Until you have 20 to our 7 and then start smacking we don't fight. God, you must be proud of yourself. Perhaps you are trying to justify getting your hands on some or all the money that the NPCrs are getting fined. What do you have to show for it? I guess if keeping 10% of us busy with the hope of a fight (like yesterday) is why they pay you then good job? Yesterday we where out numbered when we first faced off and at 100km you had the upper hand because we had 2 ravens. How did you take advantage of the situation? You warped off... furthermore you shouldnt be suprised that our numbers swell quickly in H-PA, it's our home people log on there. As far as us not fighting outnumbered... we where outnumbered just yesterday in IMK not our fault you where disorganized. There are videos on these forums that would prove your statement to be untrue. "Oh yeah there's enough for erbody"
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:27:00 - [76] 20 mins to reply thoth did you computer break ??. pff I had you in the sweep at 7 mins. That's a million isk I won't see again
slothe	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:35:00 - [77] can this f-e v 5 smack bull**** please stop, from both sides. its really annoying. both sides are as bad as each other but it is playground style behaviour coming from players im guessing whos average age is likely to be around 25 at least.
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:35:00 - [78] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: Your tactics are ofc your own choice, but you usually have what 6 or 8 BS (+ support) parked in ur pos? and IMK gang had what 6 BS (+ support) last nite.. if you'd helped them.. we would have had a good even fight.. instead you left them to die.. There is not such thing as a good fight with [5]. You only fight when you are 100% sure you can win. And win big, so that your killboards look good and you can cheastbeat on the forums. If for some reason the enemy outsmarted you and lured you into an (omg!) even battle, you blame lag, drones and CCP. Then you ALSO go to the forum and tell the enemy they are lame for whatever reason and that you planned to lose anyway because 'you jumped in like you always do and only wanted a fight'. Seriously, go **** yourself. You seemed to have missed the questions posed at the start of the thread.. If i was getting fined 100 mill for dying.. i would expect more from the ppl receiving the isk than:- "haha we are in the enemies base system of operations.." as i said b4, i could move a co ops pilot into the system and say the same.. so i ask you, what goal would you set for receiving this isk? --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Chi Prime	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:41:00 - [79] Originally by: Monkey Time They did something that MLM, in h-pa, would never do - they jumped in and took on our fleet. LOL, you mean like the suicide runs we made awhile back with the following smack in local from you about how much we suck for loosing our ships needlessly? Yeh, I'm really convinced we would get respect from you by doing that. Not. Originally by: thoth foc if you'd helped them.. we would have had a good even fight.. instead you left them to die.. ROFL! Like you would ever engage if we had even numbers
Aman Sul	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:45:00 - [80] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: Your tactics are ofc your own choice, but you usually have what 6 or 8 BS (+ support) parked in ur pos? and IMK gang had what 6 BS (+ support) last nite.. if you'd helped them.. we would have had a good even fight.. instead you left them to die.. There is not such thing as a good fight with [5]. You only fight when you are 100% sure you can win. And win big, so that your killboards look good and you can cheastbeat on the forums. If for some reason the enemy outsmarted you and lured you into an (omg!) even battle, you blame lag, drones and CCP. Then you ALSO go to the forum and tell the enemy they are lame for whatever reason and that you planned to lose anyway because 'you jumped in like you always do and only wanted a fight'. Seriously, go **** yourself. You seemed to have missed the questions posed at the start of the thread.. If i was getting fined 100 mill for dying.. i would expect more from the ppl receiving the isk than:- "haha we are in the enemies base system of operations.." as i said b4, i could move a co ops pilot into the system and say the same.. so i ask you, what goal would you set for receiving this isk? They also like to ask if we are annoyed with them in local "Oh yeah there's enough for erbody"
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:51:00 - [81] ooh I see what your getting at thoth, you think mlm are being paid ?? We don't see a single bean of the fine isk. That's not what it's for. Get back on our forums and you'll see what it's for. Does that wrap up this thread ? Thoth can rest that we are not being paid \o/
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian ooh I see what your getting at thoth, you think mlm are being paid ?? We don't see a single bean of the fine isk. That's not what it's for. Get back on our forums and you'll see what it's for. Does that wrap up this thread ? Thoth can rest that we are not being paid \o/ Neither question that initiated the thread specified mlm.. so i dont really see how it would.. --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:56:00 - [83] but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ?
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:58:00 - [84] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 09/12/2005 15:58:20 /emote dusts off his scanner and heads to the belts
ElCapitan	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:59:00 - [85] Seems like kind of a band-aid fix. Fundamental problem is that that alliance has people npcing while having enemy squads roaming in their territory...shouldnt they at least try to kill the enemy?
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 15:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ? Maybe i'm interested in more than just your opinion? if you feel the discussion is complete, leave and let others talk about it? --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
dollface	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:01:00 - [87] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ? Is your corp fining your alliance buddies for dying? Now that is what I call an ally and friend.
Sinnister	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:01:00 - [88] This thread is a joke, right? Originally by: Melko I would ask the "military" (if one existed) to pay me 100 mil for every time I got ganked Especialy when it's the same people at the same time every day. I hate logging in only to hear "stay docked ATUK are in local" FFS get them out of our space already!!!!!!!!!!!! You know, instead of sitting safe in the station, whining about enemy pilots in "your" space, why don't you undock and HELP REMOVE THEM? I'm tired of undocking into 10:1 odds while a dozen of my "allies" are sitting there docked, too scared to undock, or refusing to commit a couple of lousy frigates to the defense of billions of isk worth of alliance assets. Either get in the game, or get out of 0.0.
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:12:00 - [89] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Jherek Cornelian but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ? Maybe i'm interested in more than just your opinion? if you feel the discussion is complete, leave and let others talk about it? You have no interest in your own question this entire thread is designed as smack as is most of your time in game. Keep pressing F5 matey it's what you do all the live long day.
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:14:00 - [90] Originally by: dollface Originally by: Jherek Cornelian but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ? look im an alt . good for you.
dollface	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:31:00 - [91] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian Originally by: dollface Originally by: Jherek Cornelian but all your questions have been answered. Your initial question was of course to try and turn F-E membership against MLM, after reading the discussions on F-E own boards. Once again you failed. Is there no beginning to your talents ? look im an alt . look, I'm fining my alliance mates because they are carebears Not good for you.
Recluse Viramor	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:32:00 - [92] smack quota exceeded, everyone go fight it out in space now
Anton Kamikaze	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:42:00 - [93] Split the alliance into an industrial and a military wing. Both having their jobs. And the member corps are responsible that their members do their jobs and 'behave'. If not, fine the corp. Personally I think it's more digusting, if someone keeps on hunting while others are fighting enemies next door. If you can hunt, you can also jump into a fregate and gather information about the enemy force or fight. So I'd rather fine these people. If a corp was in the military wing, the leader could be made responsible that their members take part in alliance pvp. How he manages it is his problem. If he doesn't, fine his corp and if they are incompetent, kick them.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.09 16:53:00 - [94] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux There is not such thing as a good fight with [5]. You only fight when you are 100% sure you can win. And win big, so that your killboards look good and you can cheastbeat on the forums. . Seriously. After I read post as this i wonder are you guys talk to each other or you larg group of individuals that have no cluse whats happening around you? --------------------------------------------------- ALL my words on this forum are my OWN thoughts and opinions
Zzazzt	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:14:00 - [95] All MLM & FE responses to this topic need to cease immediately. 5 have superior smacktalking fittings for forum engagements - getting involved just lowers us to their level, tbh. ____________________________________________
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:16:00 - [96] Originally by: Zzazzt All MLM & FE responses to this topic need to cease immediately. impose fines if they dont --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:24:00 - [97] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Zzazzt All MLM & FE responses to this topic need to cease immediately. impose fines if they dont reading your posts is punishment enough Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Monkey Time	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Jherek Cornelian Originally by: Monkey Time Originally by: Naphtalia Originally by: Darcuese Question I have. What do you think boost hostile moral more: A) ganking single NPC hunter B) ineffectivnes of PvP gang/fleet (as happened last night in IMK-example)?? You constantly pointing out on those that are ganked and never mention bad actions by your PvP squad. Both might lose ships, but as I could understude only those that was ganked in belt (or similar) must pay extra. I might missed something and if i did please feel free to correct me. But Im honestly curious for answer to my question Fair question.. but I will have to return the question I am afraid... what boosts your morale more... ganking a npc raven in a belt that was warned of you incoming with 500m in faction loot... or ganking an enemy fleet while you are on their Teamspeak because they were led by an inexperienced fleetcommander. The pilots that fought in IMK yesterday were not all part of some 'pvp squad' but tried to fight and screwed up... true.. I am sad it happened... So what boosts your morale more? :) naphtalia, those "inexperienced" pvp'rs came and fought us. They actually jumped into us and took us on. Sure they were unorganised but im sure they learnt from it and next time they will be better. They did something that MLM, in h-pa, would never do - they jumped in and took on our fleet. Respect to them for doing it. Monkey, you all station hug until you outnumber us, you come out in 2's or 3's we warp in and you dock. Eventually you get enough battleships to fight us, then you get more battleships and more. At this point you all sit outside the station at insta dock range and smack us for not attacking. When we do attack as soon as we target someone they insta dock. We are not leaving H-PA mate and no amount of threads rubbishing us in an attempt for you to shame us out is going to work. You have manpower to remove us, you pull in people from wow as soon as we get even numbers. But we are still here, cya tonight same time same place always 2 sides to a story i guess. you arent entirely correct, imo. its always koffie black and naphtalia that are sitting outside the station in their blackbird and moa. as soon as they get someone scrambled or someone stupid enough to go aggro u warp in all your bs. as soon as we show up to kill em, they dock. it was only a couple of nights ago when there were 40+ f-e against our 25ish. now, if u believe naphtalia, u only had 9 in your gang. dont f-e corps join up with each other? a couple of nights ago f-e were complaining we had too many bs. i offered that we go change into frigs - no response came back.....
Roke E'raith	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:52:00 - [99] Actually, I agree somewhat with thoth and the other that are for a "fine", but why being so drastic? Firstly: Set the tax to 10% so the mission runners actually gives the corp/alliance cash (which they do, if they are not totally worthless). I mean, all revenue streams are good revenue streams, right? I can also agree that making a stiff fine for people that destroyed their own ship should not be the same as if the ship was made/bought by corp/alliance. In order to make a rule that works all the time, you could set it up somewhat like this: First offence - stern warning and (alliance bought ship): 10% (of market value (or a set value)), 5% in own ship Second offence - fine (alliance ship): 50& (own ship): 25% Third offence -fine (alliance ship): 100% (own ship): 50% Fourth offence - boot Why a lenient first offence? Because everyone (and I mean EVERYONE)can have a "blonde" moment. Even the top of the line guys. By doing this, you can ensure that you won't lose people you want to keep. /Roke
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.12.09 18:10:00 - [100] Quote: always 2 sides to a story i guess. you arent entirely correct, imo. From our PoV, we're right but as you say - two sides. Quote: its always koffie black and naphtalia that are sitting outside the station in their blackbird and moa. Or vigil, but generally, yes. Quote: as soon as they get someone scrambled or someone stupid enough to go aggro u warp in all your bs. as soon as we show up to kill em, they dock. It's called: harassing. If we wanted to do a fleet fight (impossible) we'd be with the suicide squads in IMK or WH-J and have our asses handed to us or wait endlessly hoping you will finally get bored of safespotting. Quote: it was only a couple of nights ago when there were 40+ f-e against our 25ish. now, if u believe naphtalia, u only had 9 in your gang. dont f-e corps join up with each other? We had 12 in gang. We had 10 BS. There was a F-E frigate fleet consisting of tech 1 frigs and a few t1 cruisers in H-PA for some reason. We didn't gang up cos it's pointless. You had (dunno number) in gang, but it was ~20 counting some inty support around the station. You had 14 BS We warped to station with our 10. We had Nimn or something in a Scorp as primary. Nimn was at 137 km from me. I shot a him. One of our Tempest pilots shot at him. We shot him into armor. We lost an Apoc. People were screaming they couldn't hit that far out. FC hit the warp button and scolded those people. We lost an Apoc. We didn't come back in and went playing Yahoo Poker. You smacktalked local. Quote: a couple of nights ago f-e were complaining we had too many bs. i offered that we go change into frigs - no response came back..... As if you're gonna fight a fair fight - don't kid yourself.
thoth foc	Posted - 2005.12.09 18:32:00 - [101] Originally by: Roke E'raith Actually, I agree somewhat with thoth and the other that are for a "fine", but why being so drastic? Firstly: Set the tax to 10% so the mission runners actually gives the corp/alliance cash (which they do, if they are not totally worthless). I mean, all revenue streams are good revenue streams, right? I can also agree that making a stiff fine for people that destroyed their own ship should not be the same as if the ship was made/bought by corp/alliance. In order to make a rule that works all the time, you could set it up somewhat like this: First offence - stern warning and (alliance bought ship): 10% (of market value (or a set value)), 5% in own ship Second offence - fine (alliance ship): 50& (own ship): 25% Third offence -fine (alliance ship): 100% (own ship): 50% Fourth offence - boot Why a lenient first offence? Because everyone (and I mean EVERYONE)can have a "blonde" moment. Even the top of the line guys. By doing this, you can ensure that you won't lose people you want to keep. /Roke The 2 obvious missing factors are time and usefulness.. if a guy was killing 100 BS a nite i would expect most ppl could overlook the odd silly mistake.. :P and unless the ppl benefitting from the "donations" where hughly more effective at killing the enemy, i wouldnt be happy to fund their enjoyment of the game, as it is likely to effect my mine sooner or later.. --thoth [5], ex-Curse Alliance ex-DSMA
Tim Tim	Posted - 2005.12.09 20:12:00 - [102] Edited by: Tim Tim on 09/12/2005 20:12:29
Jaqs	Posted - 2005.12.09 20:18:00 - [103] Agreed with Persh Iltrdae those lines of thought.
The Jok3r	Posted - 2005.12.09 21:22:00 - [104] Edited by: The Jok3r on 09/12/2005 21:22:47 Humm reading this tread is very interesting... I am in an empire corp and travel once in a while to 0.0 space and I love it. In Empire I see nothing like this Communism you all speak of. I use to live in Cuba and really think Fidel Castro is one of the most wises man in the world. I always had some type of food and education and never had a problem after hurricanes getting to my small but humble home. If there is an alliance that wants to take all I make for the corp and supply me with what I need, would it be possible for me to sign up? Currently I have trouble making anything for my self cause their is no help from corp. I think that alliances would be very productive in a communism type of enviorment. I have spoken to another member of the corp I am in and well I think if it works for you guys then so be it. Fidel and Chaves FTW is what I say... "Were do they get those wonderful toys?"
Harum Skarum	Posted - 2005.12.09 22:08:00 - [105] Originally by: The Jok3r Edited by: The Jok3r on 09/12/2005 21:22:47 Humm reading this tread is very interesting... I am in an empire corp and travel once in a while to 0.0 space and I love it. In Empire I see nothing like this Communism you all speak of. I use to live in Cuba and really think Fidel Castro is one of the most wises man in the world. I always had some type of food and education and never had a problem after hurricanes getting to my small but humble home. If there is an alliance that wants to take all I make for the corp and supply me with what I need, would it be possible for me to sign up? Currently I have trouble making anything for my self cause their is no help from corp. I think that alliances would be very productive in a communism type of enviorment. I have spoken to another member of the corp I am in and well I think if it works for you guys then so be it. Fidel and Chaves FTW is what I say... I believe G alliance operates like that. Members do not really need isk because the corp/alliance supplies everything and in turn they give up most of their income.
Jherek Cornelian	Posted - 2005.12.09 22:44:00 - [106] Originally by: The Jok3r Fidel and Chaves FTW is what I say... Findus and Chavs ftw as we say in the UK
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2005.12.09 22:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Harum Skarum Originally by: The Jok3r Edited by: The Jok3r on 09/12/2005 21:22:47 Humm reading this tread is very interesting... I am in an empire corp and travel once in a while to 0.0 space and I love it. In Empire I see nothing like this Communism you all speak of. I use to live in Cuba and really think Fidel Castro is one of the most wises man in the world. I always had some type of food and education and never had a problem after hurricanes getting to my small but humble home. If there is an alliance that wants to take all I make for the corp and supply me with what I need, would it be possible for me to sign up? Currently I have trouble making anything for my self cause their is no help from corp. I think that alliances would be very productive in a communism type of enviorment. I have spoken to another member of the corp I am in and well I think if it works for you guys then so be it. Fidel and Chaves FTW is what I say... I believe G alliance operates like that. Members do not really need isk because the corp/alliance supplies everything and in turn they give up most of their income. you should be fluent in german though if you apply Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!

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