gal are far from the best.

You have an interesting definition of "far from"

Itty V 37152m3
Bestower 39201m3

Difference 2046 m3 = 5.5%

For those that didn't read the original threads, there was much rabbling about evening out numbers of hulls for all the races, or making them all ORE, etc etc. But Rise made it appropriately clear that the time and resources aren't there, and that they have some industry changes planned for the future that may impact things. They didn't want to implement seismic shifts in the industrial line before that happens. These changes are useful, bring the hauling capacities closer together to prevent the 'there can be only one' problem, and restore some of the racial flavor to the hulls. I'm looking forward to it.

Now you're being obtuse.

If you fly Amarr, Caldari, or Minmatar ships you'd be cross training Gallante. If I fly Amarr, and like most people I want the largest general cargo hold, why on earth would I feel forced to cross train Gallante?

Which part of this (excellent) post do you not understand?

Which has historically been more than enough reason to choose one hauler over another.

I agree with Valterra. It would have been far better for ORE to develop the new industrials, and then have the other empires (those that have more than two haulers) decide to retire their redundant hulls from service.

Instead we have a half-finished system that is heavily biased towards Gallente and Caldari, with those of us that have trained other races (I'm Amarr afterall) essentially left out in the cold. Moving the new specialty ships over to ORE would have both been more thematic, but more importantly, put everybody on equal footing since the ORE Industrial skill would be required.

Unless CSM raises something major in the next day or two you should have some new stuff to look at before the end of the week =)

The issue of not understanding is not on my part.

I completely comprehend why the indys weren't given to ORE.

I wouldn't be able to form coherent arguments against these change if I didn't understand them.

You just don't seem to be understanding the simple arguements I'm making against them.

For Older players, this is a buff.
For Newer players this changes nothing. Train Gal Indy and be done with it.

Same problem before the changes. If you don't have the resources, then don't bother.

This is a great update. Good work Rise, and thanks for listening!

For those that didn't read the original threads, there was much rabbling about evening out numbers of hulls for all the races, or making them all ORE, etc etc. But Rise made it appropriately clear that the time and resources aren't there, and that they have some industry changes planned for the future that may impact things. They didn't want to implement seismic shifts in the industrial line before that happens. These changes are useful, bring the hauling capacities closer together to prevent the 'there can be only one' problem, and restore some of the racial flavor to the hulls. I'm looking forward to it.

Edit to add: Rise, you may want to update the second round thread to add the new names to each of the hulls? Would simplify people browsing who aren't familiar with the thread.

I don't like it. Logically you'd move the new specialized industrials to ORE, but it's not being done because of lack of development assets? If that's the case, then just put the whole project on the backburner until you can get the assets. Industrials and transports still work as-is now.

And how will the future industrial changes affect things? Are people just going to train-up for Gallente to use the new specialized hulls, then find their SP's wasted when they change things yet-again in the near future?

You're not just doing a 41% dps increase on them? Because that would be rather silly

Are you doing medium beams as well? Because medium beams are kinda **** (although tbh thats more because scorch is op than the beams fault..)

Now that i think about it small beams are **** to..

COME ON RISE, I WANT TO USE BLUE LAZORS!

I don't like it. Logically you'd move the new specialized industrials to ORE, but it's not being done because of lack of development assets? If that's the case, then just put the whole project on the backburner until you can get the assets. Industrials and transports still work as-is now.

And how will the future industrial changes affect things? Are people just going to train-up for Gallente to use the new specialized hulls, then find their SP's wasted when they change things yet-again in the near future?

Thats okay, you can keep on ignoring all of the people that have no use for the specialty bays and will train only what they need. They are obviously all wrong and lack your innate understanding of the situation.

Perhaps you'll take the time to explain to them how wrong it is to train for ships that serve the need they have, and instead should train for ships that either don't fit their needs or are inferior to the ships they would normally use.

So you'd prefer to do without the new specialty bays until some point in the future, even though they are done now?

I don't think that's going to be a very popular choice.

Skill points would likely be handled as they are now when a function changes in game. If the skills become worthless they'd be refunded, if the skills still have value than likely not.

I'm not ignoring all of the people that have no use for the specialty bays. Never said they are all wrong. (Though they might lack understanding of opportunity costs)

I'll take the time right now to explain to them how wrong it is to train for ships that ONLY fit niche roles, when it is far more efficient to train something that suits all a users previous needs (after all itty 5 had best cargo before and wasn't changed in this round) PLUS possible future needs one might have.

What I am saying is that this was buff for older players that have already trained those racial skills previously and doesn't change the status quo for new players. The changes aren't large enough to justify training any other race over Gal.

CCP Rise, I'm sad to see these changes.

This was a wasted opportunity to do the correct thing and move all the industrials over to ORE and make them feel like a 5th minor race.

There is NO reason to have 6 different skills for industrial ships! (4 for each race and then the two Ore skills we have now). (Not counting freighters.) All you needed was the two skills we have now, the first for subcaps, and the second for caps.

You could have solved the now huge racial imbalance you've actually made worse now.

Why would anyone need to train anything other than gal indy with all those special ships they have?

This was a sad sad day indeed.

The most recent example? Freighters used to require Industrial V to fly - now only Industrial III is required - making Levels 4 and 5 now wasted points if you never intended to fly Industrials or Transports.

Except that Itty 5 no longer has the best cargo (nor speed), and training for a specialty bay (the very definition of a niche role) that you don't need is a senseless waste (albeit a small one).

You already know this situation is going to change when time and resources are available. I think most people are happy with the improvements for the moment and STRONGLY disagree with shelving the whole project until a later date.

So what about the special edition industrials, e.g. Iteron Mk IV Quafe Ultra Edition? Will they have their legacy names or will they all be "Miasmos Quafe Ultra Edition", "Miasmos Quafe Ultramarine Edition", etc.? And will they also be rebalanced, or will they have the legacy stats of the old Iteron Mk. IV?

I'm really just curious, since I don't use industrials.

While correct that the itty 5 no longer has the best cargo or speed, I am also correct in that it wasn't nerfed, everything else was buffed.

Again my argument was about efficiency. Best is meaningless when the differences are so small. Why train for the best in one area with such marginal differences when its far more likely that training for the most hulls would likely yield unforeseen benefits in the future?

And no, I don't know this situation is going to change in the future, nor do I know that the proper time and resources will ever be available. See I've been a player in Eve for long enough now that I've seen many promises from CCP that have never materialized. I am not foolish enough to believe them now.

I do however agree with you that most people now are more than happy with the changes since it means that a vast majority of the player base will be buffed, who wouldn't be happy with buffs?

That said, these changes still don't meet their stated goals, which is all I was saying, nothing more, nothing less.

I realize these changes need to be done for various reasons. But will tech 1 industrial ever be more than just a floating loot pinata?

I certainly hope so.

Being a super stealthy or hard to kill loot pinata is the role of T2.

The only skill refund that I can recall is the elimination of the Learning skills.

Then what would be the motivation to get a blockade runner or DST?

I think these changes are fine and make sense. I still think you need a mini-freighter class... something like a 100k m3 cargo hold retailing for about 100 mil to bridge the gap between standard indys and freighters for hauler types.

As has been pointed out the buffs to the other races meet our requirements just fine for now.

And you'll have to excuse the rest of us for believing a CCP developer over your fears as far as plans for the future go.