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Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Republic University Minmatar Republic
422
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Posted - 2013.07.27 06:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEuauDBkPt0&list=PLQvKSs1k6DLMpIYY3BOimUasUXuayrpjN
CCP you need to nerf rooks because rooks are overpowered, like the falcon and blackbird.
Jams are automatic victory in small gang pvp.
EDIT: For those who are not aware, formal logic dictates that if I can provide one counterexample I can disprove a statement. I have just disproven the theory ECM is overpowered. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5520
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Posted - 2013.07.27 06:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
No you haven't and the fact you think you have means you suck at logic. It's besides the point though. The main problem with ECM is the mechanic itself. It is a bad mechanic to have no matter how good or bad it is in the current game balance. If you fix it to something less random and less frustrating to the victim, it can still be a powerful e-war mechanic. |
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Republic University Minmatar Republic
422
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 07:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:No you haven't and the fact you think you have means you suck at logic. It's besides the point though. The main problem with ECM is the mechanic itself. It is a bad mechanic to have no matter how good or bad it is in the current game balance. If you fix it to something less random and less frustrating to the victim, it can still be a powerful e-war mechanic.
Who cares about the victim in pvp? |
Abyss Azizora
Sarum Prime Syndicate Group Paper Alliance
38
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Posted - 2013.07.27 07:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:No you haven't and the fact you think you have means you suck at logic. It's besides the point though. The main problem with ECM is the mechanic itself. It is a bad mechanic to have no matter how good or bad it is in the current game balance. If you fix it to something less random and less frustrating to the victim, it can still be a powerful e-war mechanic. Who cares about the victim in pvp?
The victim does obviously.
But yeah, ECM never should have been in the game in the first place, every other module in the game can be countered by either another module or with player skill, ECM has no such counter. (And don't say ECCM, even with two fit you can still be 100% disabled against a dedicated ecm ship.)
It's annoying to get tracking disrupted or sensor damped, it's "THE END" if you get ECM'd permanently.
Either way, it's pointless to argue against ECM, CCP doesn't give a rats ass about it. Never has, never will. Just be glad falcons arn't on the same level as god anymore. |
Ckra Trald
Stellar Essence STELLAR CONSTELLATION
215
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Posted - 2013.07.27 07:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
ecm eachother in a circle, essentially doing nothing for 20 minutes ^^ poorly made blunt forum post above ^^ |
Don Purple
Snuggle Factory
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 07:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
So you are supposed to have FAIR fights in eve? Explain to me this logic.
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Alice Saki
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
75170
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Posted - 2013.07.27 09:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
RAWR EWAR!!
Push them off field ^_^
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Sulliva Slake
EVE University Ivy League
18
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Posted - 2013.07.27 09:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:No you haven't and the fact you think you have means you suck at logic. It's besides the point though. The main problem with ECM is the mechanic itself. It is a bad mechanic to have no matter how good or bad it is in the current game balance. If you fix it to something less random and less frustrating to the victim, it can still be a powerful e-war mechanic. Who cares about the victim in pvp? The victim does obviously. But yeah, ECM never should have been in the game in the first place, every other module in the game can be countered by either another module or with player skill, ECM has no such counter. (And don't say ECCM, even with two fit you can still be 100% disabled against a dedicated ecm ship.) It's annoying to get tracking disrupted or sensor damped, it's "THE END" if you get ECM'd permanently. Either way, it's pointless to argue against ECM, CCP doesn't give a rats ass about it. Never has, never will. Just be glad falcons arn't on the same level as god anymore.
The counter to ECM is ECM..
A flight of (tech 1) ECM drones will nullify a blackbird (5 ECM drones x 5 strength = 25) and a blackbird only has a sensor strength of 22. Blackbird might as well just warp off at that point.. And thats just using the light drones.. Medium drones have a strength of 7.5 so with those you could almost relibly jam 2 bb's..
Not to mention how squishy they are.. |
Forum Clone 77777
State War Academy Caldari State
130
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Posted - 2013.07.27 10:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sulliva Slake wrote:Abyss Azizora wrote:Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:No you haven't and the fact you think you have means you suck at logic. It's besides the point though. The main problem with ECM is the mechanic itself. It is a bad mechanic to have no matter how good or bad it is in the current game balance. If you fix it to something less random and less frustrating to the victim, it can still be a powerful e-war mechanic. Who cares about the victim in pvp? The victim does obviously. But yeah, ECM never should have been in the game in the first place, every other module in the game can be countered by either another module or with player skill, ECM has no such counter. (And don't say ECCM, even with two fit you can still be 100% disabled against a dedicated ecm ship.) It's annoying to get tracking disrupted or sensor damped, it's "THE END" if you get ECM'd permanently. Either way, it's pointless to argue against ECM, CCP doesn't give a rats ass about it. Never has, never will. Just be glad falcons arn't on the same level as god anymore. The counter to ECM is ECM.. A flight of (tech 1) ECM drones will nullify a blackbird (5 ECM drones x 5 strength = 25) and a blackbird only has a sensor strength of 22. Blackbird might as well just warp off at that point.. And thats just using the light drones.. Medium drones have a strength of 7.5 so with those you could almost relibly jam 2 bb's.. Not to mention how squishy they are..
You obviously have no clue how ECM drones work. Light drones jam with a strength of 1, mediums 1.5 and heavies jam with a strength of 2. What youre clearly misguided by is the drones own sensor strength, as in, the drones own resilience to being jammed. |
Seven Koskanaiken
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
300
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:But yeah, ECM never should have been in the game in the first place, every other module in the game can be countered by either another module or with player skill, ECM has no such counter. (And don't say ECCM, even with two fit you can still be 100% disabled against a dedicated ecm ship.).
Damp them? Remote ECCM? Snipe them? FoF missiles? Rush them with tackle to make them bounce off field?
Eve Uni used tons of blackbirds when I was there and they still almost always lost so ECM is not a win button.
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Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1555
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
No counter to ECM??
I had a Navy Domi once. Fit it with dual ECCM. Had a corpmate try to jam me in a Falcon. He might have got one jam every five cycles, and that's being generous.
Drones. Drones set to aggressive will attack whatever is aggroing you, whether you can lock them or not.
Auto-targeting missiles. Think they're useless? Think again. Getting permadamped by Serpentis in The Blockade is no different from getting perma-ECM'd because either way, you can't get a target lock. With AT missiles, that doesn't matter, in much the same way as drones.
ECM itself is also a counter, as are ECM drones. Most ships will ECM you from range, so prop mods can be effective in small gang.
As both a victim and survivor of ECM attacks, I can tell you now, sometimes there's no way out of it, too bad so sad. The same could be said for ANY module or ship in the game under the right circumstances. Time to start learning how to mitigate those circumstances. Use your imagination.
That brings me to what I think the real problem is with ECM, though. It's people who have little to no imagination and want CCP to hold their hand for them instead of using the tools they've already provided. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
729
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM.
They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad.
Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept?
I've already made a thread about this Here
If you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1555
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^
Someone really needs to establish a law about people who call people sheep. What is it, exactly, that makes me a sheep?
For the record, I don't really care either way if CCP does or doesn't do anything about ECM. But then again, I know how to deal with it, because I have an imagination and actually learned something from it. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Seven Koskanaiken
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
300
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^
It's not broken, you just don't like it.
It's misleading to say that it makes a ship usless. Over the course of an engagement you will have % of cycles that land which is effectively a reduction in DPS. 50% chance of jam on a 200dps ship = 0.5*200 = 100 effective DPS, so not different from any other ewar, the binary effect just makes it APPEAR more annoying. In a fleet some ships like logi may get all the jams on them, but then that's why you are in a fleet, use your fleetmates to help you counter the jams on you.
If you get permajammed by a falcon well tough, it's a ship made purely for that purpose, a cookie cutter frigate has no chance against a destroyer if they aren't prepared for it, maybe should just avoid it. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
729
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ Someone really needs to establish a law about people who call people sheep. What is it, exactly, that makes me a sheep? For the record, I don't really care either way if CCP does or doesn't do anything about ECM. But then again, I know how to deal with it, because I have an imagination and actually learned something from it.
A sheep is somebody that is blind to what happens around them and still does their own thing regardless.
A player says he does not like the MECHANICs of ECM and you respond by telling them. "ECM has alot of counters, you are just unimaginative"
If you don't see that as a problem you are beyond help. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1556
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 11:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ It's not broken, you just don't like it. It's misleading to say that it makes a ship usless. Over the course of an engagement you will have % of cycles that land which is effectively a reduction in DPS. 50% chance of jam on a 200dps ship = 0.5*200 = 100 effective DPS, so not different from any other ewar, the binary effect just makes it APPEAR more annoying. In a fleet some ships like logi may get all the jams on them, but then that's why you are in a fleet, use your fleetmates to help you counter the jams on you. If you get permajammed by a falcon well tough, it's a ship made purely for that purpose, a cookie cutter frigate has no chance against a destroyer if they aren't prepared for it, maybe should just avoid it.
This a thousand times. All these ECM and Falcon whine threads are virtually the same thing as someone coming on here and complaining that all destroyers should be removed from the game because they can't beat 'em in a Slasher. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
729
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ It's not broken, you just don't like it. It's misleading to say that it makes a ship usless. Over the course of an engagement you will have % of cycles that land which is effectively a reduction in DPS. 50% chance of jam on a 200dps ship = 0.5*200 = 100 effective DPS, so not different from any other ewar, the binary effect just makes it APPEAR more annoying. In a fleet some ships like logi may get all the jams on them, but then that's why you are in a fleet, use your fleetmates to help you counter the jams on you. If you get permajammed by a falcon well tough, it's a ship made purely for that purpose, a cookie cutter frigate has no chance against a destroyer if they aren't prepared for it, maybe should just avoid it.
In a small gang fight you get jammed and your 500 DPS ship becomes a 0 DPS and 0 targeted module ship for 20 seconds. Then you die. Because somebody got lucky with a percent chance.
But honestly, just go to my thread if you want to argue. I'm not going to anti-ecm over the entire forums. |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1556
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ Someone really needs to establish a law about people who call people sheep. What is it, exactly, that makes me a sheep? For the record, I don't really care either way if CCP does or doesn't do anything about ECM. But then again, I know how to deal with it, because I have an imagination and actually learned something from it. A sheep is somebody that is blind to what happens around them and still does their own thing regardless. A player says he does not like the MECHANICs of ECM and you respond by telling them. "ECM has alot of counters, you are just unimaginative" If you don't see that as a problem you are beyond help.
No, a sheep is a farm animal. Go back to school.
If a player wants to make a whine thread because he or she doesn't like something about the game without offering any constructive criticism, then what do they expect? Anyway, what was actually said was, "the mechanics of ECM are bad," not, "I don't like the mechanics", and then someone claimed there was no counter. I was responding to that. Clearly, you're not paying attention to what's happening around you and doing your own thing regardless. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Seven Koskanaiken
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
301
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM. They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad. Lol do you honestly not get such a simple concept? I've already made a thread about this HereIf you want CCP to do something about it, start complaining ^ It's not broken, you just don't like it. It's misleading to say that it makes a ship usless. Over the course of an engagement you will have % of cycles that land which is effectively a reduction in DPS. 50% chance of jam on a 200dps ship = 0.5*200 = 100 effective DPS, so not different from any other ewar, the binary effect just makes it APPEAR more annoying. In a fleet some ships like logi may get all the jams on them, but then that's why you are in a fleet, use your fleetmates to help you counter the jams on you. If you get permajammed by a falcon well tough, it's a ship made purely for that purpose, a cookie cutter frigate has no chance against a destroyer if they aren't prepared for it, maybe should just avoid it. In a small gang fight you get jammed and your 500 DPS ship becomes a 0 DPS and 0 targeted module ship for 20 seconds. Then you die. Because somebody got lucky with a percent chance. But honestly, just go to my thread if you want to argue. I'm not going to anti-ecm over the entire forums.
Well that's OK because the other members of your gang are there. If you want individual contribution to matter, go solo.
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
729
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Posted - 2013.07.27 12:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: No, a sheep is a farm animal. Go back to school.
If a player wants to make a whine thread because he or she doesn't like something about the game without offering any constructive criticism, then what do they expect? Anyway, what was actually said was, "the mechanics of ECM are bad," not, "I don't like the mechanics", and then someone claimed there was no counter. I was responding to that. Clearly, you're not paying attention to what's happening around you and doing your own thing regardless.
Oh thats cute, you just repeat what you've heard.
Whats new, sheep. |
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Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2013.07.27 12:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Someone really needs to establish a law about people who call people sheep. What is it, exactly, that makes me a sheep? It's because you are fuzzy and huggable...
But you have a very good point....
What really pisses me off is I see it in 99.99% of printed communication everywhere not just EVE. That is the fact that people cannot grasp that loose does not mean the same thing as lose. Uneducated dolts...
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Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1556
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Doc Severide wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Someone really needs to establish a law about people who call people sheep. What is it, exactly, that makes me a sheep? It's because you are fuzzy and huggable... But you have a very good point.... What really pisses me off is I see it in 99.99% of printed communication everywhere not just EVE. That is the fact that people cannot grasp that loose does not mean the same thing as lose. Uneducated dolts...
No way man, I'm terrible. I hate hugging and I hate people. But I'm autistic, so I have an excuse. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
655
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Nobody is asking for how to counter ECM.
They are saying it is a bad mechanic, yet you sheep keep posting how to counter ECM, and call people bad.
And the people posting counters are basically saying that it's not a bad mechanic, but that the people who whine about it are just bad players.
If you think ECM is bad, you clearly have never run up against someone who is good at Sensor Damps. It's as bad if not worse. ECM has a chance to miss, it's RNG based. Sensor Damps don't. They lock you, and you're done. (both are countered by autofire missiles though, as opposed to TDs, which are countered by missiles in general)
And do you know why most ewar ships are used from extreme long range? Because they are hilariously squishy. Most of them cannot last 3 volleys from a ship of their size.
There are ways to deal with them. But sometimes it's tough luck, that's the nature of ewar, high risk (squishy) high reward (they can lock down another ship).
Surely this Falcon/Blackbird/Griffin or whatever else ewarmolested you wasn't by himself? Or did he kill you with drones? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Just Lilly
103
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
ECM is so random, it's a gamble
Even in small gang pvp Powered by Nvidia GTX 690 |
Remiel Pollard
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
1556
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: No, a sheep is a farm animal. Go back to school.
If a player wants to make a whine thread because he or she doesn't like something about the game without offering any constructive criticism, then what do they expect? Anyway, what was actually said was, "the mechanics of ECM are bad," not, "I don't like the mechanics", and then someone claimed there was no counter. I was responding to that. Clearly, you're not paying attention to what's happening around you and doing your own thing regardless.
Oh thats cute, you just repeat what you've heard. Whats new, sheep.
Oh that's cute, you again accused me of doing something without actually providing what it was I did, and then offered no actual substantial counter-argument.
I'm not repeating anything I heard, nobbit. I was explaining what I did, and why you are wrong. See how I explain what happened when I make accusations and you just make accusations with no demonstration of why that accusation is accurate? You're just running at the mouth like a butthurt 12 year old. Seriously, go back to school You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Seven Koskanaiken
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
301
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Just Lilly wrote:ECM is so random, it's a gamble
Even in small gang pvp
Well this is most people's problem, but it's a fallacy really.
I'd be happy to have ECM go from binary gamble to instead using the % as an effect on modules. So a 60% chance of jam becomes a 60% reduction to their DPS, a 60% percent reduction to a target painters effectiveness, etc etc etc. The average effect over the course of any typical engagement lasting more than a few seconds is EXACTLY THE SAME. There's no nerf here but I bet people will not whine because they can presss ma buttans. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
331
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Is that why sensor damps are all the rage at the moment? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
658
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Just Lilly wrote:ECM is so random, it's a gamble
Even in small gang pvp Well this is most people's problem, but it's a fallacy really. I'd be happy to have ECM go from binary gamble to instead using the % as an effect on modules. So a 60% chance of jam becomes a 60% reduction to their DPS, a 60% percent reduction to a target painters effectiveness, etc etc etc. The average effect over the course of any typical engagement lasting more than a few seconds is EXACTLY THE SAME. There's no nerf here but I bet people will not whine because they can presss ma buttans.
The one I heard that was the best suggestion, is that it applies a stacking effect for every jam you hit with. The sensor strength of all of them is reduced, but when you land enough jams to stack higher than their sensor strength, they are jammed.
Same effect, really.
But I think you're right about people hating on ECM more because their buttons are locked out. Helplessness is so hurtful to their precious feelings. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope Gallente Federation
260
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Perhaps each module that succesfully jams should reduce the targets max locked targets number by 1?
I just fixed ecm :) |
Arduemont
The Asteroid Solution
1631
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 12:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
If your worried about ECM, bring some EWAR support and a sniper. Damps work well and they are an automatic success. Stop complaining, and start doing something about it. Alternatively bring drone boats, or a small stock of FoF missiles. Seriously, there are plenty of options.
killorbekilled TBE wrote:Perhaps each module that succesfully jams should reduce the targets max locked targets number by 1?
I just fixed ecm No, you just made is completely useless. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
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