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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ranger 1
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Posted - 2005.12.23 03:00:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Yuzier OA
You may not have been aproched, but you still sell to the same prices as everyone else, hence its a cartell
No conspiracy theory here mate
Actually, that's capitalism. Charging what the market will bear. Hardly a Cartel.
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.12.23 04:36:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Yuzier OA
You may not have been aproched, but you still sell to the same prices as everyone else, hence its a cartell
No conspiracy theory here mate
Actually, that's capitalism. Charging what the market will bear. Hardly a Cartel.
It's also how we prevent complete shortages.
Those of us in the US might have noticed a significant increase in the price of sugar recently. A large percentage of the US's sugar production was in the New Orleans area that was devestated by Hurricain Katrina. As a result, the US supply of sugar is far below was it was this time last year. Yet, the stores still have sugar, despite the holiday baking season. How is this possible? Well, because stores raised their sugar prices, people are responding by buying less sugar, hence demand has dropped down to the supply.
Same thing happened with HACs; supply counldn't keep up with demand near their 30m price, so the market adjusted until demand reduced to what could be produced.
As it turns out, it takes on the order of five times the price of a HAC in order for demand to drop to production, but that's the way it works when you've got a hot item that's in short supply. You notice that there *are* HACs on the market, yes?
Harry Voyager
____________________
I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums. |
Albar Gray
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Posted - 2005.12.23 07:37:00 -
[183]
Can't believe I missed this thread for like 4 days, that'll teach me for looking in the wrong forums :)
Anyway, good to hear the DEV's are looking at the situation.
-----------------------------------------------
IÆm not schizophrenic...
ThatÆs my alt
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Driven
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Posted - 2005.12.23 23:54:00 -
[184]
Originally by: kieron
Originally by: DIABLOII
The Term "Near Future" sounds like a politcal term, in the meantime the T2 Market will probably break down in one week I would guess than you will hear from the PVP Players that T2 is too expensive.
I posted 'near future' because I do not know when this will be resolved. It might be tomorrow, it might be next week, it might even be after the new year. Until I find out when it will be resolved, I don't want to post a time estimate that might or might not be met. The last thing I need right now is a bunch of manufacturers forming a 'Let's lynch kieron' mob because I gave a date that wasn't met. 
Talk about nasty and expensive surprises. Did I miss this in the patch notes? In the meantime, I'll be getting the lynching rope ready for kieron - :) - while I run missions and pray for R.A.M. bonuses I guess. I was contemplating making BPC's once I run out of R.A.M., but I'm not sure what good it will be to make copies once the R.A.M. prices have skyrocketed.
I didn't read all seven pages of this, but I did read the post where pre-patch it was made clear to the dev's that this was going to be a problem. Is this true? And if so, why was nothing done in anticipation?
Apostles of Insanity is growing again.
Check us out!
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Semkhet
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:09:00 -
[185]
I'am sorry if my post may look arrogant, it is not intended to. However, I think that some points have to be clarified.
Economics & production are subjects who existed way before EVE's birth. There are known laws who apply invariably from the environment and the time. What follows is specially focused and adapted on T2 ship building.
1) Production involves skills, regional market monitoring on ressources and output absorption capabilities, BPC/BPO's handling, adquisition of raw materials, intermediary transformations (T2 components), ship building and marketing/selling. It is a complex task, who is sometimes tedious. Make no mistake, the only reason why T2 ship builders exist is the ISK benefit you may retrieve. If experienced builders consider that in the current situation it is better for them to suspend their activity, I can assure you that their position will not be replaced by newcomers who don't enjoy similar skills, nor the experience, the contacts and the financial assets.
2) T2 ship producers are one of the classes of people playing EVE that are the least dependent of their activity. Why ? Because they already master all the inferior skills required to build other things, not to speak about the fact that when you are billionaire, you do as you please. Most builders could stop making T2 ships for months if they want to without suffering, but what about the players that will see T2 ship prices skyrocket due to their rarefaction on market ? The player base is much more dependent of ship builders than the inverse, because there are relatively few builders for thousands of players.
3) Every serious production is planned. It means that the supply of raw materials must be constant. There is no reason any ship builder will be satified with a random offer of RAM's. No matter what people say, that agents drops will increase, bla bla bla, the fact is that it will remain random, because NO ONE HAS ANY FRICKIN IDEA when and where a player will accept one of these missions, nor at which price he will sell these RAM's.
4) Adapt ? Telling players that all their T2 ships will suddenly cost 2-4 mil (AS, bombers, covops, ceptors) 6-12 mil (HAC's), etc... Absolute BS !!! There is a limit to what ppl is ready to pay for a given item, simply because their own income did not progress in the same proportion. Whoever thinks that the circumstancial income increase of players getting RAM's will compense the T2 ship costs on the whole EVE community should go back to school and learn economics. It doesen't work that way. Most T2 ships are geared towards combat and suffer low insurance coverage. They are meant to blow things up and to get blowed soon or later. Raise their price beyond a given thresold, and most ppl will simply stop using them. Does EVE look better if the global picture of all what's flying around goes back to what you could see in 2004 ? That's evolution ?
5) The RAM issue doesen't affect only ships, but also T2 mods, and RdB BPC/BPO's management. Factorize all the variables, and you may well end up with a fully fitted T2 ship costing almost the double of what you were used too. And this happens just now that scores of new T2 ship classes have been implemented in the game ? And at a time were, being the player base increasingly older, more and more players are getting the skills to fly T2 ?
Conclusion: Simply put, given that RdB are necessary for BPC/BPO's handling, and RAM for T2 production, there are only two solutions that fulfill the requirements of a viable production allowing affordable prices on end-products:
A) Introduce RAM's & RdB BPO's so people may produce them.
B) Or revert to the older scheme were they could be repaired.
No amount of agent drops will reduce the uncertainty about RAM/RdB market supply in prices, time and location.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:19:00 -
[186]
the question now is, if ur opportunistic and willing to take a risk, do u sell the ram u got left for a high price and hope ccp will release either ram BPO's (cheap, aka around 4.5 mill like the other T2 construction items) or make ram repairable again 
hm... got 10 SS rams left, anyone interested? 500k a pop
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:29:00 -
[187]
well guys come for a trip to aridia region u will see hundreds of each type on the market for sale at reasonable prices - no they arent on escrow they are on the regional market so u will need to come check them out - there are no supply side problems out here i have had 100s of each type sitting here for days unsold unmoved and at the low end of the cost structur less than 50-100k ISK price range.
No i wont deliver yes its low sec but if u want em they are easy enough with a corp scout to deliver back to youre empire manufacturing slots
Thta is all - btw CCP have upped the standard mission payout where RAMs are dropped from 50-60 on level 4 missions up to 80-90. SO that has boosted supply just the jita careebras havent figured out where to find em yet - CCP is now boosting the attractiveness of low sec
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
Megadon
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:33:00 -
[188]
Son of Holio
You are correct, there is no ram problem they are plentiful. Some tech 2 producers don't want to get off their lazy .....
and go get what they need.
I've had starship ram on the market for days at 500k
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.12.28 03:08:00 -
[189]
son of ollo, is there something wrong with your ability to count? Hundreds of RAM is an order of magnitude below the thousands of RAMs needed. And, if nobody is actually buying them that indicates that these are old stock not any actually new RMA entering the system.
You are, essentially saying that there isn't a famine because nobody has eaten this bag of grain in the corner.
Just because the old stocks are not yet depleated doesn't mean that there isn't a production problem.
Harry Voyager
____________________
I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums. |
Semkhet
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Posted - 2005.12.28 07:45:00 -
[190]
Hmmm... This is the privilege of forums, were everyone is entitled to emit opinions, despite most of them having no relevance at all. I wonder how many posts would remain in this thread if all those who come from people who never have built T2 stuff on a regular basis (and therefore have no clue) would be deleted.
T2 production is ALREADY tied to low sec systems because T1 components represent its basic building blocks. Now there is a difference between moving zydrine/megacyte or RAM's requiring 100m3 cargo PER UNIT. Of course, it can be done. But even in the case were available RAM's on market could cover production requirements, builders will repercute the increased costs of prospecting/hauling/escort/lost haulers & cargo to the final sell price. At the end, it's the consumer who will suffer, no matter how you look at the equation.
One of my accounts is a T2 ship builder. He currently has more than 60 ships on hold, and will not resume production until the RAM situation is cleared. And we are speaking about an individual builder who sells approx. ~30 ships a week. This represents a requirement of 152 RAM's/week. Now do the posters here who see no problem with the current situation have any clue about NAGA's weekly RAM requirements ? I don't think so...
Those who say that customers must adapt maybe could tell me how players will find the ressources. Rewards have been reduced in most complexes/missions in order to counter farming. There are now lvl4 missions who give less than 1 mil isk. Most BPC dropped by agents simply can't be built because the needed components don't even exist in-game yet. Where the hell will players get the isk needed to cope with the inflation RAM's will cause ? Do you think that players who have already problems to get decent mods/ships will on top all head to 0.0 to mine crockite ? Almost half of EVE's player base is less than 1 year old... You must attempt to grasp the global picture to understand all the implications of rendering the T2 market so unviable.
As I said before, T2 producers may start other activities, they have the skills and the isk. Big corps may produce T2 stuff on a limited basis for some of their members, etc... It's the new players who will mainly suffer. Jumping from T1 to T2 will represent an unbereable cost for many folks. In the mean time, a reduced group of privilegied individuals will enjoy continuing to use T2 stuff.
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Pallas Athene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 07:41:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Pallas Athene on 03/01/2006 07:42:21
3500 - 4000 R.A.M. Starship Tech p.w.
Not counting in the new T2 ship BPOs we recieved after RMR.
N.A.G.A Website
I make you a Prince - promise |
Leowen
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Posted - 2006.01.03 10:50:00 -
[192]
OK last word from Kieron was that this is being looked at - that was 13 days ago! Can we please have an update on the status of this serious issue?
Leo
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MrBadidea
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Posted - 2006.01.03 10:58:00 -
[193]
I've done probably 40~50 missions since the patch. I've recieved a grand total of 0 units of R.DB and 0 units of RAM.
Nothing from mission completion bonuses and nothing from loot.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 11:26:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Seleene on 03/01/2006 11:26:34
Originally by: Leowen
OK last word from Kieron was that this is being looked at - that was 13 days ago! Can we please have an update on the status of this serious issue?
Leo
*prepares the lynch Kieron mob* 
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
Naal Morno
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Posted - 2006.01.03 11:29:00 -
[195]
I think I will join...
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Mr Ratty
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Posted - 2006.01.03 11:51:00 -
[196]
well i only have the 1 t2 bpo, but it uses 82 starship rams a week, which i ran out of this week, i was able to buy a weeks worth for 5-600k pu, this has added 3.5-4.2 mill to the cost of each ships build (7 rams a ship).
i've raised the sell price by 3 mill, if they sell i'll buy more, if not i'll have to halt production till the rams are fixed
<><><><>
Freelancing Corp |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2006.01.03 11:54:00 -
[197]
well my supply is running off the market but RAM chips remain in the location so i guess its time to start using escrow to make the global audience aware of their location.
Ive noticed that RAM drops have actually started to decrease replaced by more ISK also by more warp scrambelrs - small armour reppers and medium pulse lasers. Pushing up the cost of t2 is a good idea actually might bring down the price of tech 2 BPOs in the long run if they arent able to be used as much
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
J Valkor
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:14:00 -
[198]
Edited by: J Valkor on 03/01/2006 12:14:40
Much like OPEC, just because more RAM's will be available more cheaply, doesn't mean prices will go down.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:27:00 -
[199]
Yeah demand and supply will go up no doubt once CCP make some tweaks.
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
Sinari Galdrin
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:58:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Harry Voyager
You are, essentially saying that there isn't a famine because nobody has eaten this bag of grain in the corner.
But, you are essentially saying 'we will all starve to death', even though there is this bag of grain in the corner.
CCP have a limited way to control T2 production at the moment, by restricting RAM availability. In my mind this is an important thing for them to keep control of. Making BPOs for RAM or making them infinitely reusable is a bad idea, as the control leaves their hands. Limited run BPCs might be OK, but so is 'creating' them through agents, or NPC drops or whatever.
At the moment there isn't a shortage of RAM units as far as I can tell - there is still "that bag of grain in the corner".
For some reason people don't seem to want to "eat" that bag - they'd prefer to "starve" whilst looking at it and moan.
Maybe when that bag starts being used up, CCP will release more RAM units through the agent system. I wouldn't expect it to be hard for CCP to modify the probability of getting RAMs through agent rewards.
Maybe there are too many Tech II items out there...
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Leowen
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:34:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Sinari Galdrin
Originally by: Harry Voyager
You are, essentially saying that there isn't a famine because nobody has eaten this bag of grain in the corner.
But, you are essentially saying 'we will all starve to death', even though there is this bag of grain in the corner.
*Sigh*
Ok, again... There are not enough RAM's dropping to meet demand. People aren't buying that last bag of grain because they cannot afford it. The ONLY ships in game that justify spending 1m per RAM are HAC's, and even some of those are no longer viable. Paying 1m per RAM puts 4m on the price of Assault Frigs, 2m on the price of inties, 2m on Stealth Bombers, 5m on Transport Ships, etc. That makes it unviable to build them so people have stopped including me. Basically only HACs and the new RMR T2 ships are being built now.
Does that mean there is no problem? Do you think?
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Quanteeri
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:43:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Quanteeri on 03/01/2006 14:44:24
Quote:
Paying 1m per RAM puts 4m on the price of Assault Frigs, 2m on the price of inties, 2m on Stealth Bombers, 5m on Transport Ships, etc.
Just out of curiousity, how does that work?
1 mil for a RAM adds 4 mil to ship build cost? How's that?
Is that @ 4 chips per AF,etc?
CCP has even knows it. They've added the word BIGSHOT to the URL of my avatar. |
Leowen
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:50:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Quanteeri
Edited by: Quanteeri on 03/01/2006 14:48:18
Edited by: Quanteeri on 03/01/2006 14:44:24
Quote:
Paying 1m per RAM puts 4m on the price of Assault Frigs, 2m on the price of inties, 2m on Stealth Bombers, 5m on Transport Ships, etc.
Just out of curiousity, how does that work?
1 mil for a RAM adds 4 mil to ship build cost? How's that?
Is that @ 4 chips per AF,etc?
Either way. I went out lookng for RAM last night and found quite a bit of all kinds. Just because RAM has gotten expensive is no reason not to buy it, simply tack the extra cost to the end consumer.
Yes.
Not that simple - consumers will only take a price so high before they boycott and buy T1 or named instead.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:51:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Quanteeri
Edited by: Quanteeri on 03/01/2006 14:44:24
Quote:
Paying 1m per RAM puts 4m on the price of Assault Frigs, 2m on the price of inties, 2m on Stealth Bombers, 5m on Transport Ships, etc.
Just out of curiousity, how does that work?
1 mil for a RAM adds 4 mil to ship build cost? How's that?
Is that @ 4 chips per AF,etc?
RAM tech's are tools used in building tech2. Before you could repair these, now you cant. The price gone from less than 50k a piece to 1 mill or so per. Before RMR these wasn't really a big cost other than repair cost. Now they are baked into building cost and adds quite a bit. Smaller tech2 ships and tech2 ships that isnt high earners get put aside for hac's and ships in high demand. Spend RAM's where the profit is made best. So, supply of certain t2 ships will be low and scarce until the whole RAM issue been sorted.
As for those who say run missions to get ram's? I visited in the area of 50+ agents last night. And asked for missions, (production and courier type of agents). Out of that I got a offer of ONE mission where 6x rdb's was a bonus reward. Dont really see RAM's being offered that much through agents. Unless someone sit on a golden goose somehwere.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Raid
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:53:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Seleene
Ah, good. I didn't have to get involved in this one. The darn Carrier threads took a lot out of me already. 
Al your like the poster boy for forum *****s!
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The Canadian got in a store and said to the seller:
- I'm a Canadian and I can kill you!
- Can what?
- Canadian! |
Harliquin's Shadow
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Posted - 2006.01.04 14:52:00 -
[206]
Back to the top you important thread where you lovely GM's can see it!!!!! |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2006.01.04 15:19:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Harliquin's Shadow
Back to the top you important thread where you lovely GM's can see it!!!!!
Aye, I'm curious about this one too.
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Irrilian
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Posted - 2006.01.04 15:28:00 -
[208]
Feh.
Over that last few days IÆve been trying to get some RAMs via missions, not something I enjoy but I thought Id help NAGA out while the player supply chain is established û as the lack of such seems to be the principal problem. IÆve been doing courier missions with low sec level 4 and level 3 agents and yet to receive any RAMs.
Perhaps IÆm just unlucky, but it doesnÆt bode well.
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The Big Blue, ôExodus realised.ö |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.04 16:19:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Raid
Originally by: Seleene
Ah, good. I didn't have to get involved in this one. The darn Carrier threads took a lot out of me already.
Al your like the poster boy for forum *****s!
Always!! I like the alliance name. Necromancy 4TW! There are no CC in Curse!
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
Tophereon
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Posted - 2006.01.04 16:26:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Semkhet
4) Adapt ? Telling players that all their T2 ships will suddenly cost 2-4 mil (AS, bombers, covops, ceptors) 6-12 mil (HAC's), etc... Absolute BS !!!
Already been proved wrong! Retributions have gone up by around 4mil and selling as well as ever. Raptors have gone up by around 500k to 1mil also.
Originally by: sonofollo
Thta is all - btw CCP have upped the standard mission payout where RAMs are dropped from 50-60 on level 4 missions up to 80-90. SO that has boosted supply just the jita careebras havent figured out where to find em yet - CCP is now boosting the attractiveness of low sec
And that proves there will be a problem!! We need an increase from 50 to 500! not 50 to 80!
Toph.
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