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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.21 12:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 21/12/2005 12:58:18
(Apparently the topic didnt like the word sexy :P) (Why do my topic lines keep vanishing?)
Originally by: Tuxford This is my favorite thread in the whole world, I almost don't feel like telling you guys that the special damage types ammo (explosive crystals, em hybrids) will be put on hold until we think of something equally sexy for projectiles.
Thinking of something as sexy for Minmatar is definitely not the easiest job in the world. I think we could do with some good input for the devs on this. Please bear in mind:
- Ammo that does 'something else' such as cap damage, etc, is not a realistic thing to ask for, in terms of existing ammo and in terms of the way the game works. The ammo needs to do damage.
- Possibly try to use existing bonuses/negatives on T2 ammos to work from
- Dont be too outlandish with the ideas
Best idea I've seen so far, from another thread:
Ammo with damage of all 4 types
Edited in: T2 ammo should NOT be a fix for bad balancing. It should be something unique, a new option for players who can use T2 guns. Balancing via something that not everyone can use is not balancing at all.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2005.12.21 12:41:00 -
[2]
Well Ammar only problem ever was low dmg on armour: solved by tech II armour (overpowered in my book)
Gallente minor issue was shield tanking (on tech I unhardened shields - on tech II or hardened therm - kin is as good as anything else btw): minor issue solved by tech II ammo = balanced
Caldari: since cold war too sensitive to small ships: tech II ammo fixed this. This was major issue but was the result of an overnerf so this fix = balanced
Minmatar: always nugging about dps: tech II ammo should give them +2% dps and 2% better r.o.f. costing them actual cap use (say double or triple) = balanced
I believe this is easy to implement and obvious solutions. Certainly therewill be matari posting here who will want + 25% dmg (make all tempys uber machariels) and those saying matari are allready overpowered and need nothing etc. but hey you cant keep everybody happy all of the time
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2005.12.21 12:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Uther Doull on 21/12/2005 12:52:42
Originally by: Crellion Minmatar: always nugging about dps: tech II ammo should give them +2% dps and 2% better r.o.f. costing them actual cap use (say double or triple) = balanced
the extra dmg and rof for extra cap would work on arties, but seeing how some ac's can allready get your cap down to 75% with normal ammo i'd say increasing it would gimp tanks on minnie ships even more...
so for AC something else will have to be found, perhaps decreasing rof but increasing dmg so that it would come out just a bit over standard dps (main problem with ac's is the insane ammounts of ammo they use)
seeing that all t2 ammo have some (minor) penalty there would have to be one for this ac ammo to0 but i can't tink of something sensible atm
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velocoraptor
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Posted - 2005.12.21 12:51:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Crellion Well Ammar only problem ever was low dmg on armour: solved by tech II armour (overpowered in my book)
Gallente minor issue was shield tanking (on tech I unhardened shields - on tech II or hardened therm - kin is as good as anything else btw): minor issue solved by tech II ammo = balanced
Caldari: since cold war too sensitive to small ships: tech II ammo fixed this. This was major issue but was the result of an overnerf so this fix = balanced
Minmatar: always nugging about dps: tech II ammo should give them +2% dps and 2% better r.o.f. costing them actual cap use (say double or triple) = balanced
I believe this is easy to implement and obvious solutions. Certainly therewill be matari posting here who will want + 25% dmg (make all tempys uber machariels) and those saying matari are allready overpowered and need nothing etc. but hey you cant keep everybody happy all of the time
C'mon m8. Nobody actually reads those ramblings of yours
Seriously, though, I agree. Nerf Ammars, buff me (that's velocOraptor, with a mispelled "O", dear devs). ty.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.12.21 13:08:00 -
[5]
What would be really sexy for T2 projectile ammo is having it's size cut in half, allowing you to fit twice as much in and reducing the time between reload cycles. --
Mini Skill Planner |
Fexis
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:00:00 -
[6]
How about ammo with enhanced tracking? Isn't this the supposed weak point of minimatar turrets?
Ammo that has its damage split over all 4 damage types would just be inferior in most situations. There will always be one or more damage types best suited to exploit a hole in someones tank, spreading the damage over all 4 is just vanillacide, just like loading launcher tubes with all 4 missile types.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:09:00 -
[7]
Trouble is, its got to equally as sexy as Explosive crystals, and coupled with the no reload / short change time of lasers, it makes them extrememly sexy items.
And adding tracking and dps increases is balancing the minmatar turrets, not having equally sexy ammo.
I mean, it'd have to be damn cool to be the equal of explosive crystals, because of the inherent issues with minmatar turrets, and that would cause everyone to shoot it down in flames.
Im stumped. -
- Just a simple Ultimate Undeniable Underdog.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 21/12/2005 15:18:36 Increased damage and no reload, one damage type?
Ammo that gives a webifier effect on the enemy ship? Each hit slows the ship down for a duration?
Still, its not cool enough..
Still thinking.
EDIT: Thinking about it, Explosive filled a massive hole in the lasers offence. They will now be able to do 3 damage types, harder quicker and better than missiles or minmatars. So what could balance that equation out? -
- Just a simple Ultimate Undeniable Underdog.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fexis How about ammo with enhanced tracking? Isn't this the supposed weak point of minimatar turrets?
Ammo that has its damage split over all 4 damage types would just be inferior in most situations. There will always be one or more damage types best suited to exploit a hole in someones tank, spreading the damage over all 4 is just vanillacide, just like loading launcher tubes with all 4 missile types.
"Edited in: T2 ammo should NOT be a fix for bad balancing. It should be something unique, a new option for players who can use T2 guns. Balancing via something that not everyone can use is not balancing at all."
Khaldorn just said that, too.
It really is hard to keep up with Explosive crystal sexiness.
Maybe another way round would be better - not give amarr explosive, not give gallente EMP, and simply give new 'sexy' crystals with other effects than new damage types (cap altering, speed altering, shield boost altering, blah blah blah), thus preserving our damage type advantage?
Im sure between the amount of people here, we can come up with something more interesting than that approach, though.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino EDIT: Thinking about it, Explosive filled a massive hole in the lasers offence. They will now be able to do 3 damage types, harder quicker and better than missiles or minmatars. So what could balance that equation out?
Thats the problem. Explosive damage is a MASSIVE boost to Amarr. On this subject, Gallente getting EMP really isnt a massive boost, either. So If we come up with something equally sexy for Minmatar, Gallente would really need something better than EMP damage, too.
Im really starting to think expanding outside of each races' current limitied damage types may be impossible to balance.
But like I say...Im sure between this forum's member we can sort it out :)
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Athanaric
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:27:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Athanaric on 21/12/2005 15:29:30 Arty Ammo:
+ROF +Tracking Penalty: Use more Cap
AC Ammo:
+Falloff (Like a ridiculous amount) +Damage Penalty: Limited to one damage type per ammo
The thinking on the arty ammo is that arties are used more for burst damage than for DOT. +Track and +ROF makes it more bursty, while the cap usage encourages the idea of quickly killing your enemy. Kind of works from an rp standpoint too I think.
Thinking on AC ammo is that AC's are more for DOT. +Falloff lets you pick your range to stay out of THEIR optimal and maybe start hitting sooner on your approach (farther out. +Damage is +damage). Not sure if the AC ammo penalty is really a penalty, but many seem to feel multi-damage type ammo is teh pwn.
Edited for grammar and sppellng.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:44:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Athanaric Edited for grammar and sppellng.
Quoted for truth.
But seriously, is +damage, +tracking, etc, as sexy as being able to insta-switch between EM/Thermal and explosive damage, whilst never running out of ammo? Can anything be that sexy?
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Athanaric Edited for grammar and sppellng.
So funny!
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:49:00 -
[14]
Falloff is garbage, our lock range is too small.
Quality Ammo: 5% DM per level 25% tracking per level -25% ROF penalty
Quantity Ammo 5% ROF per lvl 25% Optimal per lvl -25% DM penalty
____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
RUNYOUFOOLS
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:50:00 -
[15]
Yeah its a pig to balance thats for sure. Still may as well put down some ideas, it all helps.
Arty ammo:
1: Something that does aroud emp damage,maybe even more than emp depending on how large you wanna go with the ammo clip, but at nuclear range. downside: huge size of the ammo itself, max of around 2-3 shots in a 1400mm
2: or flip the idea on its head, something that lets a 1400mm load around 30-40 shots, but only doing something like carb lead damage, decent range on it too. downside : for t2 ammo it does poor damage, but ups our dps(via not reloading much) this is more aimed towards 100km+ fleet battles tbh, reloading in those lag fests can be a right pain.
AC ammo:
1: kinda liked the idea of upping the damage a little but loseing rof, the ac's use a insane ammount of ammo to get the job done, this would help a fair bit.
ill edit my post as i think of other stuff, but this is a royal pain in the bottom. explosive lasers indeed.....
Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute it
Originally by: Kyozoku It's been scientificly proven that warp stabs triple your chances of contracting testicular cancer. |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Testy Mctest But seriously, is +damage, +tracking, etc, as sexy as being able to insta-switch between EM/Thermal and explosive damage, whilst never running out of ammo? Can anything be that sexy?
The new T2 Crystals as listed do no explosive damage.
You can not insta-switch.
T2 Crystals degrade just like projectiles use ammo.
Oh yea, T2 Crystals still get a tracking penalty, sig rad penalty, shield hp penalty, and a 25% increase in the already absurd multifrequency cap useage.
And now they do a bit more EM damage. Gee...not so sexxy now.
Nyxus
Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!" |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:53:00 -
[17]
i'd like to point out we're talking about an ammo to rival with EM hybrid charge and Explosive crystals, it has to be sexier than what you suggest...LIKE SEXEH
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:54:00 -
[18]
Edited by: KilROCK on 21/12/2005 15:54:33
Quote:
The new T2 Crystals as listed do no explosive damage.
Maybe because they ain't released yet.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.21 15:59:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 21/12/2005 15:59:22
"The new T2 Crystals as listed do no explosive damage."
The ones that this whole thread is about do.
"You can not insta-switch."
not if you have the dexterity of an elephant, no. Decent players, however, can pretty much insta switch 8 crystals. I know I can.
"T2 Crystals degrade just like projectiles use ammo."
Good. As it always should have been.
"Oh yea, T2 Crystals still get a tracking penalty, sig rad penalty, shield hp penalty, and a 25% increase in the already absurd multifrequency cap useage."
Which is again, irrelevent to the crystals we're talking about.
As my mum always said, "Engage brain before opening mouth". You could do with taking note of that.
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RUNYOUFOOLS
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Posted - 2005.12.21 16:01:00 -
[20]
lol, nyx you know i ♥ j00 but t2 ammo makeing you lose shield hits on amarr ships... ohnoes!!1
and get in-game you bugger we need a word.
what we need a SEXEH AMMO +1000% range +2000% to nerfing amarr explosive lasers
there, problem solved.
Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute it
Originally by: Kyozoku It's been scientificly proven that warp stabs triple your chances of contracting testicular cancer. |
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.12.21 16:05:00 -
[21]
T2 Missiles are out.
People are reporting scortch being for sale on the market (sold out quickly).
They are listed on agents now. I hope, dearly truly and desperately hope that you are right Kilrock.
Nyxus
Plasmatique> "Cry 'Cartiff' and let slip the dogs of war!" |
Seraph Demon
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Posted - 2005.12.21 16:07:00 -
[22]
for AC ammo I would like: 2x ROF 2x DMG (so normalized damage is the same, but reloads are spread apart more)
single damage type; 15% sig-radius penalty for EM 25% cap reduction for therm (or 100% more cap use per shot) 15% speed reduction for kin 25% shield resistances penalty for explosive
all of them have 30% range reduction and do 13/26/52 dmg
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.12.21 16:35:00 -
[23]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 21/12/2005 16:36:30 Precision ammo, that drops signature resolution on guns by a percentage.
'piercing' ammo that bleeds through a small percentage of damage onto armour. (Maybe another type that bleeds through onto hull).
Perhaps only 'increasing' the 'bleed through' point that one gets currently on shield/armour to 50% (75%?)rather than 25%.
Compact ammo, so you get more shots in a single reload.
Fast switching ammo that only takes 1 second to swap rather than 10. -- Lyrus Associates is recruiting |
keepiru
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Posted - 2005.12.21 17:08:00 -
[24]
How is EM damage not a massive boost to gallente? Its the weakest caldari t2 resist, and 2nd-weakest amarr resist.
Which is just as big a boost as a laser ammo that allows you to do damage to the second-weakest resists to minnie shields, and the weakest gallente resists.
They are, in fact, tactically equivalent.
I really dont see why people complain so much more about one than the other. I smell moaning minnies. ------------- Please fix the EW stacking bug :(
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Ulfilas
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Posted - 2005.12.21 17:12:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ulfilas on 21/12/2005 17:12:41 Wrong character.
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Athanaric
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Posted - 2005.12.21 17:13:00 -
[26]
Piercing sounds sexeh.
Could get really wild and do corrosive ammo. Once you hit armor the ammo starts eating through both armor and structure. Might work rp wise too, for hit and run guerilla tactics.
Drawback is that it's totally wasted in short fights.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.21 18:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Crellion Well Ammar only problem ever was low dmg on armour: solved by tech II armour (overpowered in my book)
Gallente minor issue was shield tanking (on tech I unhardened shields - on tech II or hardened therm - kin is as good as anything else btw): minor issue solved by tech II ammo = balanced
Caldari: since cold war too sensitive to small ships: tech II ammo fixed this. This was major issue but was the result of an overnerf so this fix = balanced
Minmatar: always nugging about dps: tech II ammo should give them +2% dps and 2% better r.o.f. costing them actual cap use (say double or triple) = balanced
I believe this is easy to implement and obvious solutions. Certainly therewill be matari posting here who will want + 25% dmg (make all tempys uber machariels) and those saying matari are allready overpowered and need nothing etc. but hey you cant keep everybody happy all of the time
Cap usage increase on projectiles? No thanks.
I vote for all-4-dmg-type ammo with rof bonus. -=-
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.12.21 18:58:00 -
[28]
With all your ideas, don't forget that T2 ammo is not supposed to be better than T1 ammo in every way. They should only be better in certain situations. That's why they all have drawbacks.
Btw I really think the 'decency' of a player shouldn't be determined by his ability to click 8 crystals as fast as possible .
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MrFu
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Posted - 2005.12.21 20:28:00 -
[29]
Arties now are forced to do more reloads with the HP change,and it makes me cry when I see a uber tanked raven that I can hardly hurt(well,let alone apocs..),and even If I do,reload time,only to see it laugh at me and fill me of lead(or whatever).
What would be sweet: -I dont ask for new ammos that wtfpwn electronics,cap and jam you...but make bullet sizes bigger,at least for TII,arties are un-versatile enough(did I just make up that word? ),no need to make them useless now. my skills on projs are all maxed out,and really,those tanks LAUGH at me,LAUGH you hear me.We are suposed to be damage dealers,because honestly,we cant freaking tank(maybe an AC setup,but an apoc/raven tanks infinitely better),looks like we cant hurt as well.
Dont make me hit the train caldari BS 5 as everyone else..
kk,il go back to lurk in my hole
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.12.21 21:20:00 -
[30]
Give amarr their explosive crystals, but for the love of god don't make let have cystals that do explosive as their main damage type. ------------- Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP |
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