Machariel have single function in inc's alpha.

NM is used for high tracking tachyon platform.

Drones are useless due to fleet movement(sentry) and travel times(heavy's).

So that part of your ship will only be used when shooting tower.

Vindicators are generally considered the best dps ship for incursions. High up-in-your-face dps and WEBS, which is invaluable.

They are yes, but a fleet full of Vindis would be less effective than a fleet of long range ships. Vindis are good to have, but not too many of them.

That's why you have Machariels and Nightmares as snipers as well. Of course a fleet full of just one single ship type will be bad.

I think you're missing my point here.

7 turrets, 0.75 cycle time: 7/.75 = 9.333 effective turrets

8 turrets 1.25 damage modifier: 10 effective turrets.

3 vs 5 sentries... (if you use them)

However... 4 vs 7 mids

For an HQ, you need a MWD, and an invuln. That leaves just two slots for TCs and Sebos.
Given its weaker shield, you may want an LSE as well.

Keep in mind: TEs don't give the same range bonus that TCs do, and the tracking bonus is far less, and a NM basically has a free faction speed scripted TC with no stacking penalty.
A sig amp also don't boost sig res nearly as much as a Sebo...
3 speed scripted TCs on a NM give it awesome tracking.

Also, scorch is equivalent in DPS to IN X ray... while a tachmare pretty much always can be using IN multi or gleam

The applied gun DPS of the tachmare is higher.

The recent buff to it does make it a decent ship though. It shouldn't be too long before the Pirate BSs get rebalanced, and most are expecting buffs to everything except the mach.

Sentries are generally too situational to be used well in Incursions. You're on the move so much of the time, and loosing your sentries is going to be a huge blow on your damage.

Also having few mid slots gives you a low tank and few utility mods like Tracking Computers etc. Having ships with fleet-wide utility options like webs, TPs etc help out a lot for everyone, and applied damage is what matters.

While armor is fully doable they will always lack the damage potential from shield fits because they need to use lows for tank as well.

I think someone is mad that their navy geddon got turned down for a shiny fleet...

I do think a Navy Geddon is a decent ship, but the 8 vs 5 lows argument isn't valid for a shield fleet.

The mid slots are worth more than the low slots.
The NM has sufficient lows for 4 heat sinks and a damage control. Beyond that, a TC outperforms a TE, and a SeBo outperforms a Sigamp.

Why do you even speak of conflag? its only useful for tower bashes...

If its a TPPH your doing, you won't be launching sentries.

Fitting a cap power relay just wastes a slot, and the NM has sufficient cap stability, I run no elutriation rigs, and can get by even without a cap buddy or a NOS (lets not forget those utility highs).
I suspect you'd be better off sticking a drone damage mod there if you are going to be using sentries.

The Navy Geddon is pretty good, but I don't think its better than the NM for applying DPS in a shield fleet.

Sure, but im not talking about tracking here which is never an issue for me in a Navy Geddon anyway. Beams have much lower tracking but the Navy Geddon does not have to deal with that.

Because im trying to say that a Navy Geddon can take the roles from NM's and Machs as snipers and when sniper targets are down, switch role to short range DPS where a proper navy geddon with Conflag and T2 Gardes gets about the same DPS as the average Vindi gets from its turrets.

But i do, in the final pocket they work very well, MWD to shortrange DPS spot and launch them, effective dps on almost three full waves.

Except that the fleet would have 10k more potential short-range DPS from having pulse Navy Geddons instead of Machs and NM's which about equals an armor Moros in siege mode if i remember correct.
While its long range dps loss would only be about 2k.

Alpha is only useful when contesting which is rare, and if a mach misses it ends up spending half a minute before it becomes useful because of the slow reload. In addition you have overshooting, long reload times.

Pulses track just fine, i still dont see a point in using beams over them.

I fly a Navy Geddon, and i never use the vindi anchor, that allows me to make very good use of my sentries. I MWD to my position, launch drones and keep them out most of the time.

You don't fit TCs on a Nightmare for better tracking, you fit them for range.

Good luck hitting all those sniper targets at 130km range.... TCs on the nightmare are mostly loaded with range script so why you're talking about tracking I have no idea. Also good luck using sentries outside your drone control range...

Final pocket yes... then what about the other pockets? They don't count anymore? Even if you say "I just burn to the gate and drop sentries" you loose out on a lot of time before you are able to drop down those sentries and use them. By that time nearly all enemies should be eliminated already.



You don't really get why fleets have dps AND snipers do you? If having only dps was the most efficient way to do Incursions we would see fleets running with only dps. With over a year of experience with Incursions I think the communities knows what works and not. Why you bring in a Moros to this is beyond me. Please tell me when you last saw one doing Incursions. With Conflag and Garde II's the Navy Geddon deals a couple hundred more dps at the same range as beams do, but that range is only good for tower bashing.

Artillery weapons have high alpha by design side effect if it are capability to do massive dmg mid range, and with proper fit and fleet support they rarely miss 10 of those ships will remove instantly few ships of the field completely bypassing any tracking/transversal etc.and that happens every 14 sec.that being good for contest is side bonus what it rly does 8s removal of incoming dps asap= faster sites.

Tachyon NM is dps monster with split second select able range and hefty alpha to top it of mimicking in a way alpha doctrine further .

And Vindi with its 2600 theoretycal dps full set of sentrys and 90% webs is non replecable by any ship that exist in eve.

All of those ships do what pulse or any other fit geddon cant do alpha/range/dps.

Now what is confusing you

[quote=Cpt Tirel

I dont buy the alpha argument, Alpha is a PVP thing that is mistakenly dragged into PVE. Contests are a rarity that can be ignored.

You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu

What we need is a damage meter for proper comparison!

While there are advantages to Volley in PvE (much the same advantages as for PvP in fact) lets ignore the comparrison between the Pulse fit Navy 'geddon and the Machariel...

The most important question is what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Pulse NM?
For that matter, if you were to refit the Navy 'geddon with Tachs would you outperform the NMs? The Nightmare's role, at least in the minds of the majority of FCs, is sniper DPS. For that role the preference is Tachs because the targets assigned to the snipers are often outside effective range for Pulse.

Compared on this level, the Navy 'geddon comes out rather behind. The NM has more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank (particularly useful in high influence sites), can support other members of the fleet and burns through Gleam L more slowly for the TPPHs.

If the meta put Pulses to the fore rather than Tachs then the NM would have more effective turrets, better tracking, a more formidable shield tank, the ability to support its compatriots and would burn through Scorch and Conflag more slowly.

So the next question is why aren't Pulse fits more heavily used? Pulse NMs and AC Machs could both yield quite substantial DPS improvements over their, more conventional, siblings... But that gain is at the cost of range (despite claims that it's unimportant) - and if the ship cannot perform the role of the sniper (the Arty Mach or NM) then the role it's trying to perform is that of the Vindicators.

So what does the Pulse Navy 'geddon do better than a Vindicator?..

Perhaps more importantly, why did you look at the Vindicator and the NM fits the Incursion communities publish and decide that the Navy 'geddon was a better option?

You wrong here. Take a HAM tengu to pve and it has round 900 dps with round 1k volley(alpha) and compare that to a Raven which has less dps and 4 times more alpha, I am sure my numbers are slightly off as they are from memory. You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu against BC's and above. Volley (alpha) gets the ships of the field quicker regardless PVE or PVP and is not something you can ignore when you in a fleet that is built to "just" survive. Take too long and that fleet is dead.. PVE or PVP.

You do know that some mission NPCs has % chance of repping, and being able to alpha through the tank down into armor/hull that they won't rep is at times more useful as they will barely keep their tank alive against continued dps. This has more to do with firing all weapons at the same time though, but it will at times make a difference if you fire them at intervals or all together.

The substantial advantage the Navy Geddon has to the NM aswell as the Mach is the abilty to use five sentry drones. You must have missed that part while reading my other posts in this thread.
The tracking bonus of the NM is nice, but it is not really an advantage in HQ's since most targets are battleships, webbed cruisers, Sansha towers or sniper targets that pulses with their decent base tracking hit just fine with scorch because of low transversal.
Tank is irellevant, the tank on the Navy Geddon is more than adequate of HQ's as i allready explained.

As i allready explained, yes, the average long range dps of the fleet would drop around 2k by having pulse Navy Geddons instead of arty Machs and beam NM's. But when you look at the huge increase in close range dps, that i also explained, it is worth it. AC Machs can only field 4 sentries, and fighting in falloff would be less effetive than pulses are.

Apply dps better at ranges 20-70km.
More effective use of sentries because of this, because it does not have to move around so much.

If the Navy'geddon is going to reach 60km with Scorch you're going to be fitting three Republic Fleet TEs

and to get the damage you'll have 4 HS (optimal would be 3 IN and one T2) which, with a Damage Control, fills your lows.

Two Pith Invulns, an Extender and MWD fill your mids.

Therefore your drones are unmodified and are doing about 300DPS up to a range of 30km.

How are RF TEs helping you reach 60km over regular ones?

Yes, that's the idea behind shield tanking...what's the problem?

Why on earth would you use an extender? You need to plug the EM hole.

300dps is not insignificant sir, but why are you assuming gardes? Seems like the longer ranged ones would make more sense...?

When the range is 19km or less, the Navy 'geddon out damages the Tach'mare (by around 100DPS), but it's not in competition with the Tach'mare at this range - it's up against the Null loaded Vindi.

You forgot to include the drone dps here,

which means the Navy Geddon outdamages it by over 400 dps. Actually 480 with perfect skills, +6 implants and correct fit.

No, I didn't.


Then I'm obviously missing something - because with 4 IN Heat Sinks and a T2 ROF rig I'm not seeing that... In fact what I'm seeing is less than 100DPS difference.

[Fake Edit]
In fact what I've missed is that, unlike Gleam, Conflag doesn't have a further range penalty over MF and therefore I've incorrectly loaded the Navy 'geddon with INMF.
So the Navy 'geddon does have a larger advantage over the Tach'mare at Vindicator ranges than I previously thought... Though if you're static at your sentries and able to fight at Vindicator ranges why would you not do so in a Vindicator and load Garde IIs if the Vindi matches your guns and drones with just its guns?

So I did a bit of pyfa warrioring myself since I just find all this info a bit odd and this is what I got.

The question that poped up 1st was why are you comparing a dps geddon and a sniper nightmare when they fit 2 completely different roles in fleets, one is a long range 100km+ dmg dealer and the other one is a close combat dpser?

If you would for example compare NM and geddon both with pulse fits then you would realize that the difference between a geddon and a NM with conflag fitted, geddon having 5 garde II's while NM having 3 garde II's, geddon having 1209 gun dps and 300 drone dps while NM has 1295 gun dps and 180 drone dps which means that geddon wins there in numbers by 34 total dps. However if you add in the tracking and applied dps things go bit south for our geddon since NM wins there hands down cause of the ability of fitting 3 tracking comps in mids and the caldari battleship skill bonus per level bringing NM tracking speed at the same optimal range as geddon to 0.07 unlike geddon who is sitting at 0.0373, so almost 2x better tracking which means much better applied damage. Plus NM has a greater gun dps than geddon so more dmg from start with guns only.

Now let us see scorch ammo, say we brought bouncers so that our gun and drone optimals are similar, we are getting these numbers, geddon sitting at 864 gun and 263 drone dps, while NM is sitting at 925 gun and 158 drone dps which means geddon wins by 43dps. Then again we bring in tracking in equation, the applied dps, with NM sitting at 0.754 and geddon sitting at 0.4, not double but close, which means that NM has much better applied gun dps not to mention that his gun dps is greater by 61.

So from this I have to conclude that NM comes of as a clear winner and a superior ship than geddon when it comes to having same type of guns fitted.

I would also like to mention the cost effectiveness of NM for having 4 turrets compared to 7 of a geddon.

The comparison was done using only 2x6% dmg increase implants and no rigs fitted.

Best regards

Capt

Summary of this: beam NM is a better PVE sniper than artillery Machariel. And Navy geddon still has more to offer in HQ sites than both of them.

I really don't know where your numbers came from but a NM has more dps than a mach at that range without much trouble plus beams have better tracking than arty, the good thing about mach's is their speed and their alfa which comes in handy when someone tries to contest or people like to have some fun time and instantly pop ships... And they don't have cap issues, but then again nor do cap buddy NM's... which is sometimes hard to find...

I read the thread and I didn't see anyone comparing a pulse NM to your pulse geddon, you only mention how pulses with 2 TE track enough for HQ and you stopped there when there was no comparison on how good the tracking of a pulse NM was and how its range was superior as well. Even if there was a switch from beam to pulse ships a NM would still be a better option than a geddon cause of better applied dps, tracking is always a factor, its not only about hitting the ship, the better the tracking the more excellent and wrecking shots there will be which in return means more dps.

And why wouldn't a NM pilot fill its drone bay with 3 sentries if he was in your theory fleet of just vindicators and geddons but instead of geddons you would have pulse NM's, while not on tower bash all vindi's can put light drones on drone bunnies and deal with those frigs while on tower bash they all pull out their sentry drones and destroy that tower.

Tracking of unmodified sentries is bad and if you pay closer attention you will see that they mostly either just hit or graze targets so your full rack of sentry drones won't come close to that paper dps you are bragging about, and when it comes to gun dps NM wins there.

On paper geddon has more total dps but in combat a pulse NM will do w/e geddon can do and do it much better... So no geddon will not replace a NM at this point of time...

Btw, drones given to a drone bunny do DPS too. Account for that.
Also, what fit are you using for Incursions (assuming you get invites) on your Geddon?

Its not 1288 to 1300 its 1287 to 1379 gun dps with better tracking that matters since your chance to hit is greater which in return means more wrecking and excellent shots which means more dps. Geddons tracking may be enough to hit targets that are webbed by vindi's but care to explain to me how will those vindies web your long range targets, will they MJD to them and keep them webbed for you as well since no, geddons tracking speed is not enough to ensure a 100% hit chance of long range targets with their transversal speed, not to mention that the NM has greater range so it can start shooting at the targets sooner. Even with hammerheads on tower bashing the total difference in dps is 49dps and that is only on tower bashing.

Another thing I would like to ask is would your geddons be using sentries throughout the site, if so then who will be killing the frigs?

You are saying that drones need to fly to their targets, well care to explain to me how you plan to move around with your sentries outside all the time? Isnt having to pull them in then carry them to the next anchor point to drop them almost the same thing, lost dps?

So let me get this straight, you will rather have your vindi's to waste webs and dps to kill the frigates instead of having assign your light drones to a drone bunny and have him kill them? hmmm...

And in those few places where geddons switch to light drones and give them to drone bunnies NM would have clear dps advantage.

You do realize that when those vindi's switch their webs you will not be having that many hits cause of your poor tracking and your drones would be even worse...

A NM with 4 imp navy heat sinks, a burst aerator II with 6% implants has 1379 dps with all skills on 5... So yeah a NM can have that much dps...

Aw my if thats the fit you use and compare to NM then not only does NM have better range but double the tracking...

So you do not think that a ship that has much better tracking, has a 65+20 compared to 56+15km or in your case 53+14km (forgot to mention that I used t2 tracking computers while on geddon I used faction TE's), does fire 1 sec slower but has a 1.8k higher volley with conflag and 1.1k higher volley with scorch and can target further, is better than your geddon?

And in subjective opinion looks more bad ass with those spikes and all compared to geddon who looks like a giant dildo...

The only reason why you are emphasizing that geddon is better is cause of the ability to field a full flight of UNBONUSED sentry drones whose dps is not even close to that paper dps that eft, pyfa and other fitting programs show... And even if you could bring that paper dps to Eve the difference at tower bashing would be 49 dps win for geddon, and thats with NM's using hammerheads, 28 if NM's used garde II's.

Best regards

Capt Seph

To summarize this thread: OP asking which is best DPS ship for Incursions, then proceeds to argue with everyone when they don't agree over her opinion that the correct answer is Navy 'geddon.

All in all, I say it's been a winner!! Next?

Aw my, you haven't even tried flying a NM, I hope you flown mach, but after reading what you said about 800mm mach being a better option for incursions I doubt it, and here you are claiming that geddon is a better ship solely cause of those sentry drones which semi-work only for webbed and under 30km BS sized ships and totally disregarding the fact that even if perfect situations with full paper dps being fielded a geddon would win by a less than 50dps margin, while in real situation not all your targets will be under 30, by the time a fleet of geddons is done with long range targets NM fleet would already be in the next wave, next room or bashing on a tower, and they wouldn't have to ask for help from either vindi's or logi's to field light drones cause they want to pew pew with unbonused sentry drones. Really?!

As this thread is entitled "The best dps ship for HQ incursions" and not "why I think my Navy 'geddon is better than a Nightmare" my answer will be short and brief.

Correct answer is the vindicator.

a little more range

Correct answer is the vindicator.

I think you're missing my point here.