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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:45:00 -
[1]
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week per character(or some other similar number)?
This would be fairly easy to implement, and would only really hurt macroers and ISK farmers. Any normal player spending over 40 hours per week mining probably doesn't know what's good for them :)
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Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:45:00 -
[2]
No.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:47:00 -
[3]
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:47:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Vegati Daxx
No.
Do you spend more than 40 hours per week mining then?
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
hear hear, couldnt agree more.
Roids are a Menece I tell you, hunt then down I say, hunt them down!!
Amaron Ghant the Mad Caldari Miner |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:48:00 -
[6]
eerh, this would lead to macroers simply getting three times the chars they have now and doing what they do now in shifts...
ok, more income to ccp, but no change other then that.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Yaosioan on 23/12/2005 12:49:31
While we are at it let's limit total play time to 40 hours per week, and total isk gain to 100 million per week. The only people this will hurt are farmers and bots. Don't forget about skills, you can only train one skill per month. If you have a skill that takes longer than one month to train it counts for both months. Only farmers need all those skills so it won't hurt us.
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:49:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
QFT
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:49:00 -
[9]
how about no lol some of us pull 60 hours a week playing eve
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:50:00 -
[10]
Wow this is amazing, you guys really spend 40 hours a week mining?
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:51:00 -
[11]
Limit mining to 40 hrs per week
No more than 1 gate camp per week
No more than 10 missions a fortnight
No more than 10 bs built a month.
No Limits!! Thats what the games about.
Roids are a Menece I tell you, hunt then down I say, hunt them down!!
Amaron Ghant the Mad Caldari Miner |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Limit mining to 40 hrs per week
No more than 1 gate camp per week
No more than 10 missions a fortnight
No more than 10 bs built a month.
No Limits!! Thats what the games about.
Did you understand the point of the suggestion?
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Julius DarkWings
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:55:00 -
[13]
Jees if your worried about what someone else is doing then I think you probably need to turn off the computer and get on with your life...
In game Channel macrointel |
Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Limit mining to 40 hrs per week
No more than 1 gate camp per week
No more than 10 missions a fortnight
No more than 10 bs built a month.
No Limits!! Thats what the games about.
Did you understand the point of the suggestion?
You are mad that other people are better at the game than you.
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Wow this is amazing, you guys really spend 40 hours a week mining?
Way back when, I had days where I spent 12 hours straight ICE mining...
Granted I was doing work & watching TV as I sat there, but yeah. I've had weeks where I've put in more than 40 hours mining.
I have not done that in a year or so though... And probably will never do that again...
Having said all that, I'm not in favor of mining limits.
You want to put limits on PvP? How about you can only gank 5 newb corp players a week?
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Julius DarkWings
Jees if your worried about what someone else is doing then I think you probably need to turn off the computer and get on with your life...
lol I don't care what people do... I want to prevent macroing and developing world ISK farming.
But the aggression from people so far makes me wonder if they really spend more than 40 hours a week mining 
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:58:00 -
[17]
yeah why not not ... go away plz
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bhaal
Way back when, I had days where I spent 12 hours straight ICE mining...
Granted I was doing work & watching TV as I sat there, but yeah. I've had weeks where I've put in more than 40 hours mining.
I have not done that in a year or so though... And probably will never do that again...
Having said all that, I'm not in favor of mining limits.
12 hours in one day ok... you've still got another 38 hours over the next 6 days. That's over 6 hours a day still. If 40 hours is too low, then what about 60 hours? That would still really stuff up the ISK farmers.
Originally by: Bhaal
You want to put limits on PvP? How about you can only gank 5 newb corp players a week?
Do you see any point in using straw man arguments? Do you really want to kill children and drink their blood?
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Sykosys
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:01:00 -
[19]
Actually I come close to about 20 hours a week mining, and thats only because I have long work hours LOL
An actual weekly time limit to mine would be intresting. It would definitly stop those 24/7 macro/isk farmers. But unfortunatly something like this just takes away freedom from the game.
As much as most people don't mine more than 40 hours a week, saying they can only mine 40 hours a week really irks some people. And I do think some people do mine for more than 40 hours that aren't 24/7 isk farmers.
A harsh thing to ask though.
SYKOSYS
_______________________
"She'll fly apart sir,"
"FLY HER APART THEN!!!" |
Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Bhaal
Way back when, I had days where I spent 12 hours straight ICE mining...
Granted I was doing work & watching TV as I sat there, but yeah. I've had weeks where I've put in more than 40 hours mining.
I have not done that in a year or so though... And probably will never do that again...
Having said all that, I'm not in favor of mining limits.
12 hours in one day ok... you've still got another 38 hours over the next 6 days. That's over 6 hours a day still. If 40 hours is too low, then what about 60 hours? That would still really stuff up the ISK farmers.
Originally by: Bhaal
You want to put limits on PvP? How about you can only gank 5 newb corp players a week?
Do you see any point in using straw man arguments? Do you really want to kill children and drink their blood?
Limits are bad, the idea sucks...
Move along...
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:03:00 -
[21]
Okay guys, I have some more great ideas to stop macro miners and bots.
1. You can only make 10 jumps a day. Macro miners make prices plummet in near by systems so this forces them to wait in th system for the next day before they can start macro mining again. This won't hurt normal players.
2. You can only sell 5000 items a day. Macro miners make money by selling the ore and the stuff they refine into. By only allowing them to sell 5000 items a day they will lose a lot of income. Again this won't hurt normal players.
3. The game will only be up from 4 PM to 9 PM sunday through thursday and 4 PM to 11 PM friday and saturday. That is when I get home from school and when my bed time is. This won't hurt normal players. Also when I have homework the game should go down.
4. I will only drink chocolate milk.
5. I won't eat that, it's NASTY!
6. YOU ALWAYS DO THIS.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bhaal
Limits are bad, the idea sucks...
Move along...
All limits are bad? Should we remove all limits from the game then?
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Yaosioan
Okay guys, I have some more great ideas to stop macro miners and bots.
1. You can only make 10 jumps a day. Macro miners make prices plummet in near by systems so this forces them to wait in th system for the next day before they can start macro mining again. This won't hurt normal players.
2. You can only sell 5000 items a day. Macro miners make money by selling the ore and the stuff they refine into. By only allowing them to sell 5000 items a day they will lose a lot of income. Again this won't hurt normal players.
3. The game will only be up from 4 PM to 9 PM sunday through thursday and 4 PM to 11 PM friday and saturday. That is when I get home from school and when my bed time is. This won't hurt normal players. Also when I have homework the game should go down.
4. I will only drink chocolate milk.
5. I won't eat that, it's NASTY!
6. YOU ALWAYS DO THIS.
All those suggestions would hurt vast numbers of real players. A large limit on mining hours would hurt virtually none.
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Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:07:00 -
[24]
like if anybody could mine 40 hours a week without using macros  You would have a brain melt if u were mining 40 hours a week ^^^^^^^^^
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Yaosioan
Okay guys, I have some more great ideas to stop macro miners and bots.
1. You can only make 10 jumps a day. Macro miners make prices plummet in near by systems so this forces them to wait in th system for the next day before they can start macro mining again. This won't hurt normal players.
2. You can only sell 5000 items a day. Macro miners make money by selling the ore and the stuff they refine into. By only allowing them to sell 5000 items a day they will lose a lot of income. Again this won't hurt normal players.
3. The game will only be up from 4 PM to 9 PM sunday through thursday and 4 PM to 11 PM friday and saturday. That is when I get home from school and when my bed time is. This won't hurt normal players. Also when I have homework the game should go down.
4. I will only drink chocolate milk.
5. I won't eat that, it's NASTY!
6. YOU ALWAYS DO THIS.
All those suggestions would hurt vast numbers of real players. A large limit on mining hours would hurt virtually none.
No they won't, they will only hurt macrominers. Can you prove that they won't hurt macrominers? Of course you can't, it is not possible to prove that something is not true. Therefore I am the winner.
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Greyshadow
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Greyshadow on 23/12/2005 13:09:19
Simple answer to this is 'no'
I'll just add sometimes when I'm in need of isk I'll mine over 40 hrs a week I'm sure of it.
"Now you see me, now you don't!" |
The Ratfink
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:09:00 -
[27]
no
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Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:09:00 -
[28]
Selfish Gene, please come back when you have a list or have done any research about the amount of macrominers it would effect and the number or legit players it would. Now go away til youre done. Bye bye.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:13:00 -
[29]
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection 
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Selfish Gene on 23/12/2005 13:17:47
Originally by: Yaosioan
Edit: I'm using the strawman fallacy. You are using the "repeat the same point until people stop paying attention" fallacy
Actually,
1) I'm not repeating, I'm trying to counter some of the (few) rational arguments against the suggestion
2) there is no such things a the "repeat the same point until people stop paying attention" fallacy 
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Another generalisation based on little or no evidence
2 years in the game and the only thing left that annoys me is people trying to dictate what I can and cannot do in game, or how long I¦m allowed to do it for. Errrr apart from lag that is, lag also annoys me...but I digress
The solution to macro miners is to blow em up again and again and again...and again. Lots of ice miners and strip miners to be made.
Roids are a Menece I tell you, hunt then down I say, hunt them down!!
Amaron Ghant the Mad Caldari Miner |
VeGeT
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:19:00 -
[32]
Completly desagreed
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:20:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Yaosioan
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Do you have any reason to believe this will only hurt macrominers except for Argumentum ad Nauseum
Lol I take it back... but I still hold that I'm only countering arguments, not repeating the same one.
Yes, I'm basing my argument on the axiom that very few real players spend more than 40 hours a week mining.
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Brother Tycho
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:22:00 -
[34]
Heres a better option just ban all macro miners.
I would enjoy a Mini Game for mineing bit like that game you use a hammer to hit the ghosts that pop up or something and you gain a mining cycle per 10 "ore veins" you hit as the roid rotates.. and erm lower lvl roids rotate slower and if you hit a explosive chemical pocket by mistake you need to wait 10 seconds to reactive lasers and you take some damage not much though.. try make a macro that can do that for yah!
-------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]-------------
åå Spreading the good word since beta åå |
Greyshadow
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Haha
"Now you see me, now you don't!" |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:23:00 -
[36]
Dont see you reply to my argument...
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Or perhaps you have no clue since you only think from your own perspective
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
2 years in the game and the only thing left that annoys me is people trying to dictate what I can and cannot do in game, or how long I¦m allowed to do it for.
Well this is strange. I presume concord annoys you then because it prevents you pvping in empire? Or does it annoy you that you can only do one R+D agent mission per day? There are plenty of ingame restrictions already.
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Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Yaosioan
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Do you have any reason to believe this will only hurt macrominers except for Argumentum ad Nauseum
Lol I take it back... but I still hold that I'm only countering arguments, not repeating the same one.
Yes, I'm basing my argument on the axiom that very few real players spend more than 40 hours a week mining.
So you want to punish the few people that do mine 40+ hours a week to get at the macrominers?
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Yaosioan
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Some of the replies here are just comical :) I suspect more than 1 or two of the more aggresive might be from people who are not averse to the odd bit of scripted ore collection
Do you have any reason to believe this will only hurt macrominers except for Argumentum ad Nauseum
Lol I take it back... but I still hold that I'm only countering arguments, not repeating the same one.
Yes, I'm basing my argument on the axiom that very few real players spend more than 40 hours a week mining.
One real player mining for 40 hours a week, or 4000 real players mining 40 hours a week. If thats what they want to do......and I did it to build my first freighter, who are you to say they cannot.
More to the point, do you actually KNOW how many people are mining for that long? Or did you decide that as you know best, the rest of eve would bow down and agree with you?
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Dont see you reply to my argument...
Thats cos you have argument trained to insane levels Rod |
Astarte Nosferatu
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:27:00 -
[42]
Troll.
------------------------------------------
Member of the [23]
Follower of the Blood Revolution.
Sani Sabik.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:27:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
eerh, this would lead to macroers simply getting three times the chars they have now and doing what they do now in shifts...
ok, more income to ccp, but no change other then that.
The developing world macroers would have to spend 3 times as much on accounts. This is a lot of money to these people and would be a big hit to their profit margin.
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Jakk Graiseach
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:28:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
QFT
--
** There are some men that things should not come to know ** |
Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:28:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Rod Blaine
eerh, this would lead to macroers simply getting three times the chars they have now and doing what they do now in shifts...
ok, more income to ccp, but no change other then that.
The developing world macroers would have to spend 3 times as much on accounts. This is a lot of money to these people and would be a big hit to their profit margin.
THEY WOULD NOT STOP FARMING ANYWAY!
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Yaosioan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Rod Blaine
eerh, this would lead to macroers simply getting three times the chars they have now and doing what they do now in shifts...
ok, more income to ccp, but no change other then that.
The developing world macroers would have to spend 3 times as much on accounts. This is a lot of money to these people and would be a big hit to their profit margin.
Then they just raise their prices.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:29:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
More to the point, do you actually KNOW how many people are mining for that long? Or did you decide that as you know best, the rest of eve would bow down and agree with you?
Actually I was just making a suggestion, sorry if it offends you on some deep moral level!
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Vegati Daxx
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:30:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Vegati Daxx on 23/12/2005 13:31:02
Selfish Gene, is this your alt or have you really only been playing 18 days? Thats sufficent to say that you have more or less no clue. Oh and can i ask you what country youre from?
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Noobalicious Topazin
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:31:00 -
[49]
What's macroing and why do you what to limit mining, for what purpose?
I'm coming from Lineage2 and reading through few posts, it seems that you got some similar issues here.. well not to L2's extent (I hope).
Could one of you please give me an overall situation about farmers and botters.. well cheaters in genreral?
Is the cheat low or high in-game, does CCP's GMs make a good job or do you see, like in Lineage2, botters/farmers/ebayers ruling the server?.. please tell me they are a minor factor.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Vegati Daxx
THEY WOULD NOT STOP FARMING ANYWAY!
A proportion definitely would. If you increase the marginal cost, it will push the less efficient producers out of the marget thereby reducing demand.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:33:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Noobalicious Topazin
What's macroing and why do you what to limit mining, for what purpose?
I'm coming from Lineage2 and reading through few posts, it seems that you got some similar issues here.. well not to L2's extent (I hope).
Could one of you please give me an overall situation about farmers and botters.. well cheaters in genreral?
Is the cheat low or high in-game, does CCP's GMs make a good job or do you see, like in Lineage2, botters/farmers/ebayers ruling the server?.. please tell me they are a minor factor.
Hi Noobalicious, I suggest you don't take anyone's word for it here, just do a tour of the asteroid belts in high sec systems and see what you think.
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Noobalicious Topazin
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:40:00 -
[52]
I'll try it.. one thing though about the limitation proposal,
One of my IRL friend is playing that game "casually" for months and choosed to be a minor, all he likes is to mine, as fast and as long as he can.. I mean he trully loves mining and only described me EVE through mining stuff (barges and what to mine, the kind of lasers to use, skills you'll need ect).
So I started the game and was about to do the same but after mining for 4 hours in a newb place only to get 178K ISK.. I'm questionning his sanity and think about playing something more like agent mission (nice rewards and tons of quests apparently).
Anyway.. all to say that mining limitation would be an issue for some real players who happen to like it and actually sees it as full part of the... gameplay.
Instead of limiting our gameplay, it would be wise to find a proper way to limit the farmers themselves.. I dunno how though.
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TitusCrow
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
totally agree with this statement
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:10:00 -
[54]
Originally by: TitusCrow
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
totally agree with this statement
I'm not deciding what's good for someone. CCP decide the rules of the game world, many of which already restrict what you can or cannot do ingame. I'm making a suggestion.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:18:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Rod Blaine
eerh, this would lead to macroers simply getting three times the chars they have now and doing what they do now in shifts...
ok, more income to ccp, but no change other then that.
The developing world macroers would have to spend 3 times as much on accounts. This is a lot of money to these people and would be a big hit to their profit margin.
Not really.
Aside from the fact they could raise prices to accomodate this higher cost, there's already the logical presumption that overhead costs are paid for by the investor. I'm quite sure an invoestor at this time has mroe then enough profit margin to warrant an extra eppenditure of 30 euros a month for every running account.
Add it up:
an account times 40 hours mining equates to what ?
80 million isk/week ?
That's 342m isk/month.
Gametime prices atm mean that that amount pays for more then 100 days of gametime. That means he has 70+% left of quarterly profit as sellable isk on the illegal isk for cash market. That's probably more then enough to warrant a sweatshop, let alone a macromining setup that isn't even attended much if at all.
900m isk left over equates to approx 100 euros per quarter per account. Assume running a 20-ship mining op continuously, needing 60 accounts in the new situation, equates to 2000 euros a month in income after subscrption cost. Detract cost of a good net connection in a country where such access is expensive and include writeoff on hardware cost: say 300 euros a month for both combined.
Leaves 1700 euros a month profit for even a medium-scale operation that would not need more then say two-three underpaid employees to run 23/7 in shifts.
I don't see that being much of an issue for a low=wage country kind of situation. And I'd wager it's a quite conservative estimate.
Of course, like I said, CCP gets more cash, but is that worth imposing limits like these for ? And what about the possibility that isk farmining through means other then mining offers ? It's quite easy to make 10m an hour instead of 2m, if you move away from mining and have fully attended accounts farming your isk. Would that situation of farmers moving on to other professions ingame be preferable in some way ?
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:24:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week?
Because when you stat putting nonsensical restrictions on a free flowing, no rules universe it stops and becomes just a game.
EVE is more than just a game.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
AlexK100
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:27:00 -
[57]
I dont mine at all but dont think this kind of artifical limits is good idea.
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Chippie MS
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:50:00 -
[58]
Why not slam your genitals in a telephone directory repeatedly so the gene pool has no chance of being contaminated??
Oh thats right you dont want to kind of like when some people want to spend 100hrs a week mining its down to choice and no i dont mine
------------------------------------
There's one ***** in the world, one ***** with many faces |
Rooman Black
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:53:00 -
[59]
Why not limit the forum to only 40 stupid ideas a weeks?
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Natasha Kerensky
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: TitusCrow
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
totally agree with this statement
I'm not deciding what's good for someone. CCP decide the rules of the game world, many of which already restrict what you can or cannot do ingame. I'm making a suggestion.
Hi
I dont mine anymore. I jsut wanted to say to the OP that I love your name!!
Richard Dawkins pwnz
Anyway, so that im not OT- Macroers are ruining the games economy, so anything that makes it harder on themis great. But you can come up with something better than 40 hour mining limits.
I knew a guy who mined while he was at work. He was a school teacher, while he was giving his class lessons, he'd casually stroll over to his computer and click/drag every three minutes.
If my office computer wasnt a piece of crap, id mine at work too. 
Lieutenant, Deputy Chief of Security
Channel: CAINCOM
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Baron McCormack
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:58:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Baron McCormack on 23/12/2005 14:58:56
Originally by: Selfish Gene
lol I don't care what people do...
and why're you trying to bother em with silly ideas like limiting mining time?
if you limit mining to 20 minutes per month, they will get 900 accounts and still mine 10 hours per day, so what ...
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Towering Baloth
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:58:00 -
[62]
ir play 17 hours aday, i dun got work ir dun got school and i dun got a life and most of my time is spent mining
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:59:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
I knew a guy who mined while he was at work. He was a school teacher, while he was giving his class lessons, he'd casually stroll over to his computer and click/drag every three minutes.
Rofl, now THAT is a carebear 
j/k, but tbh, that's going a bit far isn't it ?
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Nat K
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:03:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
I knew a guy who mined while he was at work. He was a school teacher, while he was giving his class lessons, he'd casually stroll over to his computer and click/drag every three minutes.
Rofl, now THAT is a carebear
j/k, but tbh, that's going a bit far isn't it ?
No joke, he was in my old corp.
Like I said, I'd do it too if I could.
ISK dosent make itself!!
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Natasha Kerensky
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:04:00 -
[65]
damn alt posts!!
She needs to quit speaking for me
Lieutenant, Deputy Chief of Security
Channel: CAINCOM
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Spike Firebrand
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:20:00 -
[66]
I will be all for this when you can ONLY PVP in 0.4 systems and under.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:32:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Not really.
Aside from the fact they could raise prices to accomodate this higher cost, there's already the logical presumption that overhead costs are paid for by the investor. I'm quite sure an invoestor at this time has mroe then enough profit margin to warrant an extra eppenditure of 30 euros a month for every running account.
Add it up:
an account times 40 hours mining equates to what ?
80 million isk/week ?
That's 342m isk/month.
Gametime prices atm mean that that amount pays for more then 100 days of gametime. That means he has 70+% left of quarterly profit as sellable isk on the illegal isk for cash market. That's probably more then enough to warrant a sweatshop, let alone a macromining setup that isn't even attended much if at all.
900m isk left over equates to approx 100 euros per quarter per account. Assume running a 20-ship mining op continuously, needing 60 accounts in the new situation, equates to 2000 euros a month in income after subscrption cost. Detract cost of a good net connection in a country where such access is expensive and include writeoff on hardware cost: say 300 euros a month for both combined.
Leaves 1700 euros a month profit for even a medium-scale operation that would not need more then say two-three underpaid employees to run 23/7 in shifts.
I don't see that being much of an issue for a low=wage country kind of situation. And I'd wager it's a quite conservative estimate.
Of course, like I said, CCP gets more cash, but is that worth imposing limits like these for ? And what about the possibility that isk farmining through means other then mining offers ? It's quite easy to make 10m an hour instead of 2m, if you move away from mining and have fully attended accounts farming your isk. Would that situation of farmers moving on to other professions ingame be preferable in some way ?
Thanks Rod Blaine for a well thought out response without a single ad-hominem.
It's hard to estimate what effect this suggestion would have using the bottom up approach because there are just too many unknowns. For example, we don't really know how many accounts per person or how much that person is payed.
What is indisputably true though, is that an increase in cost will reduce the amount of ISK sold on ebay.
Since you went to the effort of a long post, I'll return the favour and explain why this is true in case you disagree (though you might not).
An economist would approach it from the top down instead:
If there is excess profit in a market, new suppliers will enter the market by undercutting their competitors. This process continues until the market reaches an equilibrium with no new entrants. The equilibrium price will be determined by where the supply and demand curves intersect. At this point, the price of the good will equal the cost of producing it (this includes things like paying wages and replacing accounts banned by CCP). The Ebay ISK market will reach this equilibrium at some point (it may already have reached it).
Here's some graphs which show what I mean:
http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp
Increasing the cost of producing ISK will shift the supply line up and to the left - a "supply shock" as shown in the last graph on that webpage. This *WILL* cause a reduction in the quantity of ISK macroed and also an increase in the price of ebay ISK.
If there are any economists reading, I'm assuming the elasticity of demand is not zero or 1 ;)
The exact amounts involved are almost impossible to calculate without doing a detailed study. The best way to find out is to try it for a few months and see what happens.
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Johnny Twoshoe
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:33:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Gariuys
And who the hell are you to decide what's good for someone? Bugger off...
QFT 
---------------------------------------------
Johnny Twoshoe - Nuttier Than Thou
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:35:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Braaage
Quote:
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week?
Because when you stat putting nonsensical restrictions on a free flowing, no rules universe it stops and becomes just a game.
EVE is more than just a game.
C'mon, Eve isn't a no rules universe: it's a million miles from one. Just for starters, game rules mean I can't go and kill the 12 accounts currently mining in Elgoi.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:38:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Selfish Gene on 23/12/2005 15:38:54
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
I dont mine anymore. I jsut wanted to say to the OP that I love your name!!
Richard Dawkins pwnz
Thanks, you'd like my other character's names too in that case
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
Anyway, so that im not OT- Macroers are ruining the games economy, so anything that makes it harder on themis great. But you can come up with something better than 40 hour mining limits.
I can't, and nor CCP by the looks of it! It will be a case of choosing the least worst options, like the recent trial accounts for example
Originally by: Natasha Kerensky
I knew a guy who mined while he was at work. He was a school teacher, while he was giving his class lessons, he'd casually stroll over to his computer and click/drag every three minutes.
If my office computer wasnt a piece of crap, id mine at work too.
rofl
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:40:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Braaage
Quote:
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week?
Because when you stat putting nonsensical restrictions on a free flowing, no rules universe it stops and becomes just a game.
EVE is more than just a game.
C'mon, Eve isn't a no rules universe: it's a million miles from one. Just for starters, game rules mean I can't go and kill the 12 accounts currently mining in Elgoi.
Incorrect, you can go and kill them but you will pay the consequences of such action.
There's a difference to NO RULES and NOT BEING ABLE TO DO SOMETHING.
You put a restriction on mining, why exactly, cos it wont affect macro miners at all, all it does is upset those that mine a lot and enjoy it.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Kylania
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:43:00 -
[72]
Quote:
What is indisputably true though, is that an increase in cost will reduce the amount of ISK sold on ebay.
You want to drive the prices of everything UP, and you somehow believe that LESS people will want to BUY isk after that?
Cost of accounts means nothing to professional farmers. While the farmers themselves need to be taken care of, I believe that we need to start being just as harsh and just as angry with the BUYERS of ISK as we are with the macro miners. They wouldn't mine if no one bought from them.
Entire account deletetions, and Credit Card bans for people that buy ISK. Drive the lazy gits out and the world will be a better place. We should start doing the same for those who sell Time Cards as well. CCP needs to outlaw that and punish for it. It's just the same.
--
Lil Miner |
Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:44:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Braaage
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Braaage
Quote:
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week?
Because when you stat putting nonsensical restrictions on a free flowing, no rules universe it stops and becomes just a game.
EVE is more than just a game.
C'mon, Eve isn't a no rules universe: it's a million miles from one. Just for starters, game rules mean I can't go and kill the 12 accounts currently mining in Elgoi.
Incorrect, you can go and kill them but you will pay the consequences of such action.
There's a difference to NO RULES and NOT BEING ABLE TO DO SOMETHING.
You put a restriction on mining, why exactly, cos it wont affect macro miners at all, all it does is upset those that mine a lot and enjoy it.
ok, we'll just make anyone who mines more than 40 hours a week get concorded. They can still do it, but they just have to face the consequences.
They need to teach philosophy in schools I think.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:46:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
They need to teach philosophy in schools I think.
Your just trolling now, this isn't even a sensible proposal, it accomplishes nothing whatsoever.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Nidda Coldone
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:49:00 -
[75]
Instead of limiting how many hours people mine I say we put a limit on the number of posts the OP can make per week. Like zero for instance.
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Selfish Gene
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:51:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Braaage
Your just trolling now,
Sorry, when people start shouting illogical nonsense at me in all caps I get a little irritated.
Originally by: Braaage
this isn't even a sensible proposal, it accomplishes nothing whatsoever.
Nice statement of absolute truth without any supporting argument - you've convinced me.
Anyway, I think my suggestion has been well and truly made so I'll stop responding to this thread.
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bumcheekcity
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:55:00 -
[77]
I think a 70 hour per week limit woudl be acceptable to combat macros. Everboyd else making silly "rolling-stone" suggestions is being petty. NOBODY would mine more than 70 hours a week, and probably should be shot if they do :P And I'm a miner...
Restricting sales or jumps or anything would hurt normal players. It might be EVEN better thoguh to simply keep logs of all players that mine for >100 horus a week, or are online for >100 hours a week, and for CCP to more clearly check them out.
--
bumcheekcity |
woodman az
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:06:00 -
[78]
I like the idea.
and PVPers are limited to 5 kills a month and gate gankers can only camp one hour a day.
make it so CCP.
Proud member of the 2
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Galaxion
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:07:00 -
[79]
I believe I have spotted a flaw in Selfish's case. Yes, there are limits already placed in game... limits placed by NPC's or limiting of interaction with NPC's.
There are, and it is one of the fundamentals of EVE theat there will never be, any limitation on your direct interaction with the world around you.
Say, for example, you should shoot someone in empire. No limiting factor prevents you doing it, simply there is a limitation in the form of set NPC consequences. However, say you want to spend 40 hours a week mining. The act of mining itself (as in not including the selling of the ore or the refining) requires no NPC interaction, or neccessarily interaction with other players. To limit something a player is doing by themselves would in effect "sell-out" the premise of EVE as being a sandbox for the players.
Not considering the number of people that may mine more than 40 hours a week, at least hundreds of people if not thousands would cancel if this was implmented becuase it signals a shift in the game design away from the original conception idea.
All in all, not a very good idea when thought out. Now, excuse me but i have math homework to do :(
P.S. I love the way you are ignoring largely the very intelligent Rod.
-----------------------------------------
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Ayla Vanir
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:12:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Ayla Vanir on 23/12/2005 16:18:08
Edited by: Ayla Vanir on 23/12/2005 16:12:24
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Bhaal
Way back when, I had days where I spent 12 hours straight ICE mining...
<snip>
12 hours in one day ok... you've still got another 38 hours over the next 6 days. That's over 6 hours a day still. If 40 hours is too low, then what about 60 hours? That would still really stuff up the ISK farmers.
40 hours - 12 hours = 28 hours. 28 hours over the next 6 days, averaged per day is 4 hours and 40 mins....
Now, you can bet once my corp gets a worthwhile BPO for a larger ship there will be people in the corp that will mine constantly.
Selfish Gene: I don't disagree with your objective. I disagree with the implementation. Simply put, any plan that targets the ENTIRE player population, rather than the people using 3rd party programs (macro programs) to play the game and interact with the UI without having to be in attendance is not going to gain much support.
An ISD representative has stated that the BEST way to curtail suspected macro users is to file a petition under exploits, providing the character name, ship, system location, date/time , and other necessary information. Given all the half-baked, half-cocked plans that have cropped up in the forums lately, I doubt ISD/CSRs/GMs are getting flooded with petitions about these players.
Simply put: ISD says file petitions. Let's try that.
Here's one link. Other ISD reps have said similar in other threads on the topic of curtailing macro use.
Linkage
[edited: zomgtypo and formatting!!!!!]
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Sivalente
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:13:00 -
[81]
selfish, i think that if EVERYONE (nearly) dissagree's, including people that dont even mine, than your claim just might be wrong. oh, and as a mining noob, i used to mine for 40 hours a week on holidays.
also, distrupiting the mineral flows would mess up the build prices and t2 even more that the missuse of the new flagged cans.
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:15:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Why not limit mining to 40 hours per week per character(or some other similar number)?
This would be fairly easy to implement, and would only really hurt macroers and ISK farmers. Any normal player spending over 40 hours per week mining probably doesn't know what's good for them :)
If I decide anyone spending more then 40 mintues a month pvp'ing is obviously a griefer would you expect ccp to jump right on it and hardcode that limit too?
I think not.
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Valerio Garati
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:22:00 -
[83]
i like macro minners. they keep mineral prices low
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DARTHEXIDOUS
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:26:00 -
[84]
Hello ppl yet another person to add to my KOS list are you crazy like what someone else said it would only double if not treble those ppl who farm and macro mine.The best way is if you think they are cheating and breaking the game rules F12 petition and exploit tab 4tw.
ok dont pass my path mwhahaha.
p.s before i go lets say that happened dont go running to ccp when you cant find the mods and ships to fly around eve obviously you havent grasped the game concept yet.
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VodkaMan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:27:00 -
[85]
Selfish Gene
You must be living in China with their laws of limiting gameplay time ?
Relax - it not stop macrominers, they just switched to another alt and continue mining, but it will rise ore prices and make discomfort for all other miners
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Arx Nemesis
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:28:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Selfish Gene
Originally by: Julius DarkWings
Jees if your worried about what someone else is doing then I think you probably need to turn off the computer and get on with your life...
lol I don't care what people do... I want to prevent macroing and developing world ISK farming.
But the aggression from people so far makes me wonder if they really spend more than 40 hours a week mining
there was a time when i mined 20h straight, then 4 hours sleep and another 20h mining and so for a week (my first battleship came that way)
so 40 hours a week is not a miner, its low grade surveyor, miners usualy do 100 - 120h week, that's why they are called miners you know.
not an activity i would like to return tho 
-----------------------------------------
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:29:00 -
[87]
Well, looking at regular isk prices on an open market there isn't that much undercutting going on.
Or, in economic terms, there's no really fluid market for isk.
In any theoretical completely fluid market with relatively low entrance restrictions one would indeed expect for supply to ramp up untill an equilibrium is reached at a point where profit is at a minimum level required to make participation interesting.
An example of this, in Eve related terms, is the market for tech1 ships ingame. Entrance into that market for aspiring producers is so easy that profit margins in the areas where there is a completely fluid market have dropped to minimal levels and have actually led to producers moving on to new goods again.
However, I'd say the isk for cash economy isn't fluid to that degree in two different aspects. Firstly, the pbstacles for participation in it are very present for prospective producers: it's not a well known market, it's not a very well accepted market and it's not the most accesible market. Eve is not a very well known MMO, and the whole virtual goods market on a worldwide scale isn't exactly a mainstream profession. I doubt there are many people starting in this field of emplyment evey day, I'd assume it's the same people doing that in all the games rather.
Secondly, the demand side of this market isn't exaclty completely fluid either. It seems isk can be sold for cash via 'reputed' sellers with a known name much easier then by any random farmer himself. That means the 'reputed' intermediate traders like IGE have a strong influence and reduce fluidity of this market by a considerable degree as well.
All in all, I do not believe that this is situation one can compare to a theoretical liberalist free-economy model. It will not regulate itself in such a manner as you propose I think. In some degree there must be an influence yes, but the system is not as simple as depicted here by far.
An example of that could be substituion of production methods. One could assume that production of isk takes place in eve through mining mostly because ti's most efficient. But that doesn't mean there are no substitutes.
Your average sweatshop manager might not know it, but if he were to put those ten people he has running ten accounts each that are mining veld in 1.0 into 0.0 space hunting npc's all day, he would make a bundle more then he does now...altho it would require a much higher amount of involvement in the game to do so and as such is at this time not preferable.
It's very hard to take eve and compare it to an economic model, be it one in which the market is free and fluid or not, since we simply don't have any facts. However, the demand for isk is a fact, the presence of sellers is a fact, and repressional measures being inadequate on their own is a fact.
All CCP can do is look at the information they have, and decide on a course of action. That that course of action must adress all kinds of things at the same time is inescapable. Their concern isn't the farming itself for example, but rather the visibility of it. After all, the fact that there is ISK on ebay doesn't bug me. The fact that I can look into ten random empire systems and add at least 20 macromining character to my addressbook when i do it is what bugs me.
Things like that are for CCP to take into account as well. And there are alot more things they are most likely taking into account. This is not an issue as simple as CCP saying NO to macro miners. It's a whole new economy that Eve is slowly being confronted with to a higher degree as the game grows more popular. What CCP does about this will have effects reaching much further then most people generally allow for in discussions like this.
I'd say it's probably one of the most difficult issues CCP has been forced to deal with. And that is why there has been no clear course of action so far I think.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:36:00 -
[88]
My how i laughed when i first read this thread.
Nice to see we have some accountants playing eve too :P
Firstly 2 days after this was implemented macro's would just add a simple timer to rotate accounts been used for mining and hauling and defending. So already have trippled 40 hours a week to 120 on the simplist of macro'ers
Secondly you want to limit geniuine paying customers rofl your just asking to be podkilled every time you step out of a station by anyone that can weild a civilian turret
ISK prices on ebay would just rise, more acounts would be bought macro'ers would proceed as usual. You seem to think that the cost of a couple of accounts would be a major dent in their profit margin. Would be more like a flea biting an elephant
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ELaine Doi
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:42:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Yaosioan
2. You can only sell 5000 items a day. Macro miners make money by selling the ore and the stuff they refine into. By only allowing them to sell 5000 items a day they will lose a lot of income. Again this won't hurt normal players.
...
errr - lol my tiny bestower with cargo expanders is desperately trying to make money by flogging 9700 units at a time - limiting to 5k a day is nonsensical -
I am amazed how upset griefers are getting when they don't get their own way !
awesome - reminds me of my two 6 & 3 year old boys squabbling
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:45:00 -
[90]
Hmm, reading the above i think i've drifted from the topic a bit into he world of theoretical discussion again.
I do that alot when there's something a little more complicated to talk about for a change here
Anyway, the original idea could be interesting as a part of a more comprehensive package of repressive measures. It would indeed affect isk farmers to a degree, inescapable really. But this alone would not change much I think.
Eve changes too, and farming will change with it when it can. Sbstitution and other adaptation is a real possiblity I think, and as such a repressive package of measures would need to be extremely well thought out and very comprehensive to win this fight in one go. One would need to convince this whole industry that Eve as a game is out of bounds to them. Because if you don't, it'll come down to who adapts faster, and that is a struggle no game developer has ever won...
People should allow for the fact that like I said above, the issue is far mroe complicated then most of us seem to think. CCP has always been an offensive developer so far, choosing the hard road of original design over winning the popularity contest with big games. The strive to be unique and to be the first in doing a number of things.
If they manage to take control of this issue, they'd be the first too. And that is far from easy, but could very well be quite rewarding to them in the longer run.
Let's say I'm glad not to making the decisions on this one. Give me the responsibility over missile balancing and sniper priates any day rather then calling the shots when it comes to something no game community has ever managed to not get into forum wars over so far.
_______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Filan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 23:21:00 -
[91]
how is someone mining 40hrs a week different then pvping, chatting, being a lame gatecamper, complexes? as long as they arent a macrominer or ISK seller its their choice to mine the heck out of a system and sell their booty.
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Tony Fats
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Posted - 2005.12.23 23:39:00 -
[92]
Limits are bad.
It doesn't matter whether or not it affects ME, it is not CCP's or the government's place to be anybody's nanny.
The issue is one of allowing free will.
If you want to mine 40+ hours a week, I fully support your right to do so.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.23 23:53:00 -
[93]
Actually, I dont think its a terrible idea.
Make it 54 hours. That way someone can mine for 8 hours a day if it floats there boat.
It's another prong of an attack against them.
If the macroers do it in shifts on diff characters then CCP gets more money then great.
Flame away, its a common sense step as no one person can possibly do that much mining legitimately.
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Josclyn Verreuil
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Posted - 2005.12.24 01:41:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Actually, I dont think its a terrible idea.
Make it 54 hours. That way someone can mine for 8 hours a day if it floats there boat.
It's another prong of an attack against them.
If the macroers do it in shifts on diff characters then CCP gets more money then great.
Flame away, its a common sense step as no one person can possibly do that much mining legitimately.
Hi. Have you ever flown a mining barge? It's actually QUITE possible to mine 8 hours a day with no macros at all. When I mine, I also watch tv, read, chat on the phone, or any number of things to break the monotony. Being able to do so is really the only perk to mining over say, agent whoring or npcing.
That said, as has been said before, putting artificial limitations in this game = bad.
~Clan Verreuil |
LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.12.24 01:47:00 -
[95]
Limits like that are bad mkay?!
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
Spike Firebrand
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Posted - 2005.12.24 03:01:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Actually, I dont think its a terrible idea.
Make it 54 hours. That way someone can mine for 8 hours a day if it floats there boat.
It's another prong of an attack against them.
If the macroers do it in shifts on diff characters then CCP gets more money then great.
Flame away, its a common sense step as no one person can possibly do that much mining legitimately.
I don't know who taught you maths but 7*8 is 56 not 54  How about we limit pvpers to 5 kills a week as well. Or limit missions runners to 5 missions a week.
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