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Removal of Attributes: Inevitable?

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Ashen Spiral Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:12:00 - [1] - Quote Relevant post from Jester's Trek: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/death-to-attributes.html It's hard to think of any good reasons to keep attributes. It's an inevitable change, just like the removal of learning skills was. The only question is how much time will pass before a dev is allowed to address it. If I recall correctly, after someone at CCP finally approved the removal of learning skills, it was implemented fairly quickly. Removing attributes seems like it would be even easier. When do you think we'll see this change on Tranquility?
Headerman Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx 288	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:18:00 - [2] - Quote Hopefully never. i like it the way it is The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why?
Nephilius Pillage and Plunder Salvage Co. 14	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:23:00 - [3] - Quote Removal of attributes would remove some of the choices you have to make in training skills and how each attribute affects the time needed to train those skills., which really dumbs the game down. I don't see alot of people supporting something like this. There's no such thing as Space Pirates, only Space Bears with eyepatches and speech impediments.
Digital Messiah The Scope Gallente Federation 61	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:23:00 - [4] - Quote Headerman wrote: Hopefully never. i like it the way it is Attributes are fundamental to the planning and restriction of players from progressing to quickly. It also helps regulate a players spending in skill points. Without this focus can you imagine how much worse the general players skill map would be? "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
stoicfaux 331	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:25:00 - [5] - Quote Meh, the blog has some good points. Attributes really don't add a lot to the game in terms of variety, especially after the remaps, removal of learning skills, and the implementation of the simplified character creation. I want to say that attributes should be kept, but I can't think of a good reason for the pro-attribute argument. Even the "Eve is about hard choices" argument feels pretty flat. Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
Lors Dornick Kallisti Industries 28	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:28:00 - [6] - Quote Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs). In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed.
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:33:00 - [7] - Quote Lors Dornick wrote: Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs). In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed. Thats probably the point of this whole thread. It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change.
Zirse Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:42:00 - [8] - Quote Jester writes some good stuff sometimes but he also overvalues both his own opinion and the weight that it carries quite frequently. Good traits for a blogger certainly, but not a game designer.
Ranka Mei TANoshii Incorporated New Eden Research. 32	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:44:00 - [9] - Quote Odd people are not opposed to this, when they're usually mordicus against 'PLEX for remap' ideas. Personally, I think attributes should stay. At least with 'PLEX for remap' there's choices to be made how you min/max your, say, 2 remaps max a year. Without attributes, anything goes, without any planning or aforethought as to the consequences. I'm a carebear. I love EVE on easy-street. But this is making things a bit too easy, even for my taste. -- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:47:00 - [10] - Quote Ranka Mei wrote: Odd people are not opposed to this, when they're usually mordicus against 'PLEX for remap' ideas. Personally, I think attributes should stay. At least with 'PLEX for remap' there's choices to be made how you min/max your, say, 2 remaps max a year. Without attributes, anything goes, without any planning or aforethought as to the consequences. I'm a carebear. I love EVE on easy-street. But this is making things a bit too easy, even for my taste. Well its actually not an question about easy or hard. Honestly remap to your yearly plan, which you usually dont follow anyway, is not an rocket science. Its more about nostalgia feelings etc. Something even when its useless is better to keep.
Jada Maroo Mysterium Astrometrics BRABODEN 361	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:52:00 - [11] - Quote I'm fine with removing attributes and attribute related implants. I don't know how many times I've heard people say "I'd love to come pewpew but I have +5s" or their jump clone without +5s is 40 jumps away or something. You'd see a lot more pewpew if people were freed from the shackles of learning implants.
Hershman G-Weezy 28	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:54:00 - [12] - Quote Attributes are fine. No reason to remove them.
Lors Dornick Kallisti Industries 28	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:54:00 - [13] - Quote Jaroslav Unwanted wrote: Lors Dornick wrote: Removing attribs would be another step into making EvE easy, nice and accessible for people with an attention span even shorter than your average CCP Devs (or CCP Producer actually, sorry Devs). In other words, a 5 YO with severe ADD, on speed. Thats probably the point of this whole thread. It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change. One remap a year is nice, being able to stack remaps when they show up is nice. I like the error/warning in EvEMon if you ask for optimise and it complains that selected plan is less than 365 days ... And if it's inevitable or not depends on the player base. EvE will not, ever, have an super influx of hungry gamers, it's simply the wrong game. EvE will continue to trundle on, grabbing enough cash from people who more than well afford it, and continue to be a thorn in the eye of kids (as in < 30) all over the planet.
Sturmwolke 30	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:56:00 - [14] - Quote I don't really agree with the removal. You need them to make these choices : a) Bonus implant (Slaves set etc) gives you massive bonuses. b) Attribute implants gives you increased learning speed. You cannot have a cake and eat it. Either choose a) or b). Doing away with the above choices will haave everyone and their dogs going for a). It will favour PVP characters heavily, but non-PVP science & industry characters will be at a great disadvantage. You'd be effectively removing the distinctions between these professions, further homogenizing the gameplay - making it more bland. Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed?
Ranka Mei TANoshii Incorporated New Eden Research. 32	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:58:00 - [15] - Quote Jaroslav Unwanted wrote: Well its actually not an question about easy or hard. Honestly remap to your yearly plan, which you usually dont follow anyway, is not an rocket science. Its more about nostalgia feelings etc. Something even when its useless is better to keep. If remaps were allowed without limit, allowing so would, effectively, be tantamount to removing attributes altogether; hence, in most proposals I've read (and one I wrote) the yearly number of allowed remaps is always capped. Yet at least with a cap on them, you still have to have basic understanding of what skills affect what attributes, so you can plan ahead for those, say, 2 remaps a year. Lose the attributes in their entirety, and people wouldn't even have to know anymore what skill affects what attributes. That seems pretty lame. And the result is that it would make the game less immersive. -- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2011.10.28 04:59:00 - [16] - Quote Well yes, I just remember when i created myself i did all the choices in regards of some "RP" background aka pure perception and willpower .. mainly for gunnery and ships Sure remaps are convenient, removing learning skills and others are convenient too .. It was hell to train basic engineering and mechanic stuff at the time From the time when the choice mattered than it changed, dont know why since i never visited forums at those times.
Ashen Spiral Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:04:00 - [17] - Quote I remember the same arguments about "making EVE too easy" or "dumbing it down" when learning skills were being removed. The bottom line is that extra difficulty is supposed to make the game more fun. Learning skills didn't do that, and neither do attributes, at least in my humble opinion. I get the impression that the devs would agree, given that the issue is so similar to the removal of learning skills. Sturmwolke wrote: Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed? The removal of attribute implants would not be necessary for this change. Just assume all characters have an even set of base attributes, and attribute implants would add to that base value as normal. People would still need to make the same choices they always have as far as implants go.
stoicfaux 333	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:06:00 - [18] - Quote Jaroslav Unwanted wrote: It began with re-maps. Inevitable is inevitable. Not saying it will happen but if it happens nothing will really change. Or we sucker-punch the inevitable and replace attributes with something that actually builds character, pun intended. Currently attributes are just about training time, aka skill points per hour. Attributes don't have an impact on how well your character does something. Attributes don't define who your character is or what your character can or can't do. Technically, all characters are generalists because we can remap every year to optimize our training time. Replacing attributes with a perk system would probably be a swell idea. Every X million skill points you can pick a perk that improves a specific aspect of the game. If you're a combat toon, then your ship is a bit more agile and your guns track a bit better. A manufacturing perk gives you a minor bonus to PE/ME. A charisma/leadership perk means you can add a few more members to your fleet, and so on. Heck, they could even be temporary perks. Since skilling something to V can take a while, let perks simply provide a decent bonus that is reduced as you train the skill up. Ex: a projectile damage perk would provide a sizable bonus if you had small projectile guns at II, but the bonus would fade to nothing once you got the skill to V. Heck^2, skill implants are essentially perks. But as Jada Maroo pointed out, they can be expensive to lose. A perk system could be implemented using the implant system with the caveat that you don't lose the perk when you're podded. Respecing your perks could be done, but it would be costly. In theory, the code mechanics are already in place and it would be "easy" (ha!) to implement. Also, the whole certificate system just screams "I want a perk system but CCP couldn't be bothered to take certificates to their logical conclusion." If you gain a combat cert, you get a combat perk (or points towards purchasing a combat perk.) It would reward folks who focus, while still giving people the ability to change their career path without them feeling gimped. Long story short, attributes have that grindy-is-bad feeling because they only affect training speed. Perks would actually let you customize your character for specific roles. Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
Schmacos tryne Norsk Testosteron 6	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:15:00 - [19] - Quote Funny... I asked the same question right after they removed Learning Skills (Which I have yet to see the fantastic results of improved gameplay, increased recruitment of new player and whatever else most people talking about at the time). The result of the LS removal paved way for a much quicker path for alts/bots to get in action which in turn might have helped subscritions but certainly not the new recruitment which CCP was led to believe. Basically I don't see the point of attributes as they add nothing to the game(tm) and anyone who find their game becomming immensly more deep and complex due to attributes should do them selves a favour and put themselves out of their missery sooner rather then later. If Attributes are to remain, I would personally like to see the re-instatement of learning skills (OH NOES, HE DIDN'T?)... Why??? well when someone gets banned it should fricking hurt and not be 2 weeks to get back on their feet violating the EULA again as nothing ever happened. TLDR: Get rid of attribs or reinstate learning.
Sturmwolke 31	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:19:00 - [20] - Quote Ashen Spiral wrote: Sturmwolke wrote: Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed? The removal of attribute implants would not be necessary for this change. Just assume all characters have an even set of base attributes, and attribute implants would add to that base value as normal. People would still need to make the same choices they always have as far as implants go. You've pretty much sidestepped the question with something that doesn't make sense.
Large Collidable Object morons. 449	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:27:00 - [21] - Quote Why not... Introduction of remaps already rendered any choices at character creation entirely irrelevant anyway... morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding!
Holy One SniggWaffe 61	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:33:00 - [22] - Quote Might as well remove skills as well. That would quadruple the subscriptions over night.
Ashen Spiral Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:36:00 - [23] - Quote Sturmwolke wrote: You've pretty much sidestepped the question with something that doesn't make sense. I'll be more specific. While the devs could literally remove all traces of attributes from skills, implants, and character sheets, that isn't really what I was referring to originally. It would be much easier to simply remove the ability to remap and set skills for all characters to an unchangeable base value. This would prevent new players from making bad choices early on that would cause them to be unable to train what they want for an entire year. EVE is supposed to be a versatile sandbox. One day a player might be in a high sec mining corp, needing intelligence and memory, and the next he might want to join a 0.0 pvp alliance, where he would need willpower and perception. He shouldn't be forced to accept a training time penalty for going in a new direction. At that point, he will have already been penalized compared to other pvp focused characters that never wasted training time on mining skills. That penalty alone is more than enough to encourage people to focus their skill choices early on for maximum advancement. Hopefully that clarifies my viewpoint a bit more.
Kelsi Corynn Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:37:00 - [24] - Quote I like attributes because I like the risk/reward mechanic of implants. Especially now that we'll finally be getting implants listed in pod killmails.
Burseg Sardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 54	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:39:00 - [25] - Quote At first glance at the title I was a bit disturbed, but I had the same feeling with the removal of learning skills. Jester also mentions how learning implants should also be removed, in favor of freeing up slots for specialized sets. I have to admit, I rarely end up using a Slave set in favor of the +5's.... and that's a shame. We have a blog, it is terrible. How to fix Bounty Hunting
Ranka Mei TANoshii Incorporated New Eden Research. 33	Posted - 2011.10.28 05:41:00 - [26] - Quote Sturmwolke wrote: Ashen Spiral wrote: Sturmwolke wrote: Now, give a good reason WHY that penalty should be removed? The removal of attribute implants would not be necessary for this change. Just assume all characters have an even set of base attributes, and attribute implants would add to that base value as normal. People would still need to make the same choices they always have as far as implants go. You've pretty much sidestepped the question with something that doesn't make sense. No, he made perfect sense. And I was thinking about the same thing when I read the OP: that removing attributes (read: making them all equal in base) would also nullify the use of attribute implants... unless the implants were kept in, so people can still make a choice between those, say, attribute implants or slave implants. -- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 4	Posted - 2011.10.28 07:10:00 - [27] - Quote From reading the blog it seems Jester is more mad about that he made a bad remap than anything else and for some reason feels compelled to train skills he doesn't want, because doing otherwise would be less efficient in gaining SP. This initial point makes him see them only as a hinderance to his fun when they really aren't an issue for the game and add to it. The thing being the hinderance is his own obsession of trying to maximize his characters training speed. Not suprisingly Jester's suggestion is that the new flat rate should be the same as the top speed you can achieve with specialization, since the problem really is that he can't accept training at a slower pace and feels forced to train things he doesn't want for months. The problem with the above really is, that it's mainly a personal feeling he has and not an actual problem with the game. With learning skills the issue had to be addressed because not training for them at an early stage was a huge hindarance to your long term skill progression and consequently it significantly reduced the fun people could have at an early stage of the game. This is no longer an issue and the "mistakes" you can make with attributes aren't that significant. New players are catered to by allowing extra free remaps, so they can recover from any initial mistakes without a problem. The attribute system also allows for meaningful choices to be made with skill training and I don't see why I should lose this option just because some people can't plan accordingly and make choices they later regret. As for the argument that attributes aren't really necessary or fun and therefore they should be removed from the game. Well they really aren't, but they add to the variety and immersion and allow faster training at the expense of reduced training for other skills. The thing is many things in the game aren't strictly necessary, but they add real value to the game for the player. Choosing a race for your character is basically a meaningless choice as far as gameplay is concerned today. That doesn't mean it's inevitable that the choice should get removed. The fun part of attributes is subjective though, since attributes seem to only be a problem when people get slower training speeds because of them, but the complaint is forgotten when they allow for specialization and faster training. To me removing them would move meaningful choices from the game and diminish the immersion I personally have, in favor of catering to people who want to train at maximum speed at all times and avoid making any sacrifices for it. Seems like a pretty clear case of wanting to have one's cake and eat it too, but trying to justify it by belittling the choices they allow with won't someone please think of the children- argument thrown in for no real particular reason. The attribute implant issue has some merit, since it acts as a deterrant to people getting in PvP more, but I don't see that as an issue with implants. They offer a good selection and balance between the different choices and I'm not convinced any good would come from tampering with them in a significant way. This is especially so, since most of the complaints could be solved with a more flexible and easy to access jump clone system. Basicly allow fast local clone jumps, so the issue of losing high grade attribute implants in combat realisticly becomes a non-issue when the player is prepared to enter combat. You could still lose them to unexpected combat, so it's not like people wouldn't keep losing them. Anyway i don't see a huge difference to the current situation, since people afraid to lose those +5 attribute implants are unlikely to risk them now either. The change to local jump clone usage would basicly just mean, that the bar for casual PvP and using certain niche implants would be lowered.
mkint 211	Posted - 2011.10.28 07:13:00 - [28] - Quote removing attributes really would add to the blandness of EVE, and thus fits in with trends in CCP's game design.

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance 376	Posted - 2011.10.28 07:26:00 - [29] - Quote Moved from "EVE General Discussion". CCP Spitfire \| Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire

Wolfcan EVE University Ivy League 9	Posted - 2011.10.28 07:26:00 - [30] - Quote Get rid of attributes, replace with a base training rate of say 2250sp/hr, keep training implants that increase skill training speed (say 10% per implant). You still keep the threat of loosing valuable training implants but aren't penalized for remapping incorrectly 10 months ago. Attributes are just annoying and are just a roadblock to doing what we really want to do. To say nothing about making the game hopelessly overly complicated for new players. Remember guys, if you want EvE to survive, new players are essential.

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