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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 11:58:00 -
[1]
EVE is one of the most complex games out there. With each major content patch and upgrade, new "stuff" is added. Quite a lot of this stuff is not explained in either the patch notes or even the item descriptions in game. Yet someone must have this information because it was programmed.
EVE is an online game, granted. However, the lack of documentation in the recent RMR patch, combined with old information that has never been consolidated, is starting to get out of hand. There are innumerable threads on these forums asking everything from what exactly you can do with some of the new POS modules to how do the new interdictor spheres work. There's still a lot of people out there who have no clue what kind of functionality the new drones have.
I was recently told that, and IÆm paraphrasing here, "Sometimes we don't know exactly what players need to know or what's really considered to be an important change."
Gentlemen, let me make this easy for you - if you change anything, please document it and make it available to us. We, the players, want to know and we don't want to find out by accident.
In addition to that, there should be some kind of documentation released that explains the workings of new technologies and how they can be used. Stuff like, "What exactly can I put in a carrier's corp maintenance bay?" It may be obvious to some people, but the true answer won't hit until someone who builds one of the things actually tells the rest of us. Then, I have to hope that I or one of my corp mates stumbles across that particular thread.
This is part of a disturbing trend that seems to be growing worse. Click on the link in my signature for yet another example. Why is it left to the players to use out of game tools to accomplish something that should be in the game already? Why do the players have to do so much trial and error in order to discover features that the game designers already know about?
I'm all about the thrill of discovery but, for example, until ASCN set up an Amarr outpost last week, was there any documentation anywhere that told us the actual benefits of doing so? Apparently you get a 5% reduction in construction time and / or mineral cost when building in your own outpost. If that's true, it sure as heck seems like a useful piece of info, yes?
I am one of EVE's biggest fans and I know that CCP is working themselves to the bone right now to get things stabilized and to improve our game play experience. However, I beg of you, if at all possible to please take a serious look at the lack of official documentation provided to us. Perhaps itÆs time for a new actual EVE Game Manual, or at least a consolidated æFeatures ChangeÆ log that we could download or reference on the EVE-O site.
Thank you for any consideration you can give this matter. 
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
PirateShampoo
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:10:00 -
[2]
I dont know how those spheres work, or if there the same has a mobile warp bubble, can they only b used in 0.0, or if u can use them in 0.1 and higher and some 1 mistakenly gets caught in 1 will the sentrys and concord pwn ur ass???? Also im still 100% sure on these new flagging changes. I agree with Seleene we need nice clear guide lines to what these new changes actually do.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:12:00 -
[3]
/signed
and interdiction spheres only work in 0.0
 Quote:
Baned until 2006.01.09. Reason: making Gallente shuttles look like Ragnaroks
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Stratosfear
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:21:00 -
[4]
Having such documentation would necessitate changing the entire mechanics of CCP's software development, which currently doesn't accomodate such process.
One of the reasons (the other probably being just cost savings) is that having documentation sets a certain standard for something to work a certain way. It's much easier to change things on the fly and give us "it's not a bug, it's a feature" line time and time again.
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Star Commander
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:23:00 -
[5]
Signed
I fully agree with Seleene on that one, there are modules in-game that still baffle me as to how to use them, in particular RnD/manufacturing stuff and some of the modules, for that reason i've nevered bothered with those aspects/items in game because of their less than fully explained uses.
Even if the Devs created a on-line manual in Adobe Reader format with clear and consise explanations to each aspect of these devices would be an enormous help to the community i think
__________________________________________
Only those without faith die with fear in their eyes... |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Stratosfear
One of the reasons (the other probably being just cost savings) is that having documentation sets a certain standard for something to work a certain way.
Knowing that something is supposed to work a certian way is a bad thing?? 
Quote:
It's much easier to change things on the fly and give us "it's not a bug, it's a feature" line time and time again.
It's also completely lame, but that's a different argument.
Regardless, I understand the changing nature of an online game. That's why I suggested something like a dedicated online "Feature Update / Change" section where we could get up to date information that reflects directly on our game play.
In addition, there are some things in the game right now such as the POS Assembly Arrays that there is no documentation on at all that I can find. I don't care if someone you know set one up and can tell me the info - that's not the point. What if I don't know that person? Why doesn't the item info tell me what the item does?
All I'm asking for is for a little less mystery and a little more solid info. 
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:42:00 -
[7]
LOL I don't know any game that has such a system... why should EVE? CoH? Nope! WoW? Nope! SWG? LOLH@XNOPE! Just to name a few. Part of the game experience is learning how to use a module the old fashioned way... practice.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
LOL I don't know any game that has such a system... why should EVE?
Because CCP > all those n00bs?
Quote:
Part of the game experience is learning how to use a module the old fashioned way... practice.
So, by that logic, we need to build a 20 billion isk outpost to discover if it gives some kind of hidden bonus?
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Seleene
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
LOL I don't know any game that has such a system... why should EVE?
Because CCP > all those n00bs?
Quote:
Part of the game experience is learning how to use a module the old fashioned way... practice.
So, by that logic, we need to build a 20 billion isk outpost to discover if it gives some kind of hidden bonus?
yes
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2006.01.03 13:15:00 -
[10]
/signed
There is no avenue to get information other than 1) trial and error (costly and excessive) or 2) taking a trip to Iceland. A decent manual (even if it were just text files) would be better than nothing. If CCP can create EVE they can document how it works.
It really isn't that hard to document as things are coded...
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Nihn Lemai
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Posted - 2006.01.03 13:26:00 -
[11]
Signed. I still havent figured out how to use most of the RMR content yet. But thats probably cause I havent played much during the holidays.
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I want instas gone... now |
jason hill
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Posted - 2006.01.03 13:41:00 -
[12]
Have to agree with Seleene with this one
"THE HUMAN SHIELD" |
Clytamnestra
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Posted - 2006.01.03 13:44:00 -
[13]
I think this is one of the charms of the game. Every aspect of the game is highly complex and intricate, and thus knowledge is hard to come by. Experienced and knowledgable players are in high demand.
There are plenty of resources available about how many parts of the game work, but I don't carry the opinion that CCP should make available 100% accurate information on all of the "stuff".
--
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Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2006.01.03 13:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kael D''mende on 03/01/2006 13:59:38
Edit: forgot to sign :O/
*signed*
HUmm documentation ? what makes u sure that ccp aint coding the old "Crash And Burn" style ;O)
/Kael
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:10:00 -
[15]
i happen to like testing things, but i think this can't be a bad idea
/signed
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Thetis
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:22:00 -
[16]
I think alot of the fun in eve comes from experimenting, and finding out what does/doesnt work. Its one of the things that differentiate it from other MMOs, if everything was documented, it would be, easy? For Example, i read a thread yesterday about NPC Convoys, now that they're no longer a mystery, they hold much less appeal.
In saying that, some things do need proper clarification between bug/feature. 0.4 Manufacturing is one thing that sprang to mind, iirc it was days before we got an official response. And im sure there are many other confusing things atm.
Therefore, i propose i new forum section, simply relating to official "this is how it works". or even something along the lines of Wikkipedia, for eve. I think this is probably the best way of going about freeing the information, without making the game too transparent.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Winterblink on 03/01/2006 14:57:25
Seleene, you know me, I've harped on this isue many times before.
Documentation on items as well as processes and techniques of use is vital, especially in a game this complicated. Anyone who's ever done documentation for anything remotely technical knows how time consuming this can be, and I can only imagine this is the reason why it's slipped here.
My initial gut reaction would be to look to the community to assist, to create an "evedoc" project somewheres to handle this. WikiPedia shows that with enough participation, something resembling an encyclopedia can present itself. EVE wikis are out there, but I'm pretty sure they're not being used.
EVE documentation needs to be:
- Complete
- Updated as frequently as the game (note I said game, not game client)
- Be visible outside of game as well as with the ingame browser
- Searchable, robustly
- Browsable by several methods
- Downloadable (PDF?)
- Printable (PDF?)
- Context-sensitive to game interface
Just some thoughts.
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Isock
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:58:00 -
[18]
I agree with Seleene here.
When CCP changed how the factories functioned it would have been very nice to know how it worked after the change.
Took me several hours to figure out how to get my production back after building it. Not to mention the confusion with all new stuff you could choose. I still do not know if you can increase the ME of a tech II ammo, cause up until now i have not been able to do it.
/Signed
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ScoRpS
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Posted - 2006.01.03 14:58:00 -
[19]
Edited by: ScoRpS on 03/01/2006 15:00:41
signed,
I hate nasty suprises, especially when ccp are so quick to wash their hands of any responsibilities. "Sorry I cant help u" is the most common answer i get.
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Rasitiln
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:10:00 -
[20]
I think CCP already started Discussing a Offical EVE wiki
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Jack Brimstone
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:14:00 -
[21]
Interesting. I was thinking of making a very similar post to Seleene, re: a plea for documentation.
Although figuring certain mechanics out for yourself can be a great deal of fun (not to mention giving you a tactical advantage over those who don't bother), the complexity of EVE is reaching a point where this is becoming very difficult.
You only need to browse the forums to see that confusion reigns, particularly with regard to new feature introductions in RMR. Even relatively old features are sometimes the subject of much heated debate.
A good (although extremely minor) example of this (pre-RMR) was the effect of the Heavy Drones skill on drone damage; some argued it affected all drones, some argued it was just heavies. Nobody seemed to know for sure. I eventually came to the conclusion that it only affected heavies, but it would have been nice to know.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:20:00 -
[22]
i'm sure I could round up some slaves, erm, students, to help start documenting everything if someone wants to help setup the initial framework. this type of project would fit nicely with the uni's goals...
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Originally by: Seleene
I maintain that OZ is evil and have nothing further to add.
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Azuriel Talloth
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:27:00 -
[23]
How hard would it be to add basic usage information and limitations to the Description of modules and items? 
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Kaliesin
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:28:00 -
[24]
They could do much of the information as a Wiki, and EveWikipedia gives them flexibility and the ability to dynamically change. The trouble is, filling it now owuld be a mare of a job, but once its done it would be reasonabvly easy to keep up to date.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:45:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
i'm sure I could round up some slaves, erm, students, to help start documenting everything if someone wants to help setup the initial framework. this type of project would fit nicely with the uni's goals...
Kind of misses the point of CCP doing something "official", OZ. There's already a dozen sites out there that try to consolidate this stuff, but there is only one group of people who know exactly what is right and wrong - the people who make the game.
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DEVS, JUMP DRIVE MAP PLEASE? |
Darrgalak
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sarmaul
and interdiction spheres only work in 0.0
Crap.
And /signed too.
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And a good time was had by all |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.03 16:20:00 -
[27]
I fully agree here. Things should be at least documented. CCP shouldn't patch things and conveniently omit changes because "they aren't important." Some of the worst problems in EVE history have been caused by stealth changes.
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Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Elissen
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Posted - 2006.01.03 16:30:00 -
[28]
As the author of the Jumpplanner I have to agree. The first versions was made by what other player could tell me and their experience in traveling with dreadnoughts. At the FanFest I spoke to Oveur and he told me that the different types of ships would probaly have different ranges. It took me quite some effort to get in touch with him again after the fanfest (I probaly drove Kieron almost crazy, sorry!) to find out what the final ranges would be.
The problems with building capital ships also indicates what the concequence of having no documentation is.
One last thing, the range can be seen in one of the item databases as well: http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/. Look up the attribute "Maximum Jump Range" on one of the capital ships. But again that is not in the game itself.
P.S. The jumpplanner works in the ingame browser too
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ICSC
Red Moon Rising edition: Jumpplanner tool - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.01.03 16:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Seleene
Kind of misses the point of CCP doing something "official", OZ. There's already a dozen sites out there that try to consolidate this stuff, but there is only one group of people who know exactly what is right and wrong - the people who make the game.
i know, but obviously they don't have the time/staff to do it - so why not make it easier for them and actually get the community involved. A wiki style thing is probably the best bet as it can be added to and changed by multiple people.
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Originally by: Seleene
I maintain that OZ is evil and have nothing further to add.
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MuthaTrucka
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Posted - 2006.01.03 16:58:00 -
[30]
I harp on this every major patch..
Documentation has to exist The Devs give the Q & A Some sort of Documentation...
Then again if it doesn;t it explains why everything reaches Tranquility Broken in some fashion or another..... You Can't Q & A Efficiently without Documentation. And if that is the case then Why bother with a Q & A Department or a Test server where You can't actually test things against Documented Abilities. Might as well start Using Tranq as a TEst Server..... Oh wait that already happens..... What Eva
The worst fact that is even on test server you can't get help. For example I set up everytype of assembly array there with Sov and without Sov. And I couldn't get a straight answer.
I had Another Player ask CCP Hammer about the on Tranq and the answer I got was they work as Described? WTF They are not Described in any fashion. The Interface while eventually Usable is not Intuitive and Does not Show everything......
And BTW what happened to Sov Bonuses for Arrays?
---------------
Don't Call me a Carebear,
I don't really care about much at all.
[SeXin Up Foyle] |
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