where are you seeing the bonuses for the new ships?
ive been keeping an eye for them and cant find bonuses or stats

where are you seeing the bonuses for the new ships?
ive been keeping an eye for them and cant find bonuses or stats

CCP has said the Talos will be a baby vindicator. go figure ;)

My God it is like having a ship with 2 Webs fit in the mids...

But there is only one Web fitted.

My God it is like having a ship with 2 Webs fit in the mids...

But there is only one Web fitted.

Actually, a pair of 60% webs will only reduce you to about 19.1% of your original speed. You'll be going about twice as fast as what a Talos's web will allow.

Much has been made about the Tornado and its potential for suicide ganking, but I think the forums have so far missed a bigger issue in the tier-3 battlecruiser designs.

The Talos offers a 90% web on a dirt cheap hull. Every gate camp will now have one.

One of the common strategies for a gatecamp is burning back to gate and going back the way you came. With an overheated MWD and a bit of momentum, you can often manage to make it back in a decently agile hull. With 90% webs on the field, this changes.

Previously, 90% webs were reserved for nine ships. All of them cost at least 100 million isk and none were insurable in the slightest. The cheapest two were frigates, and therefore difficult to keep alive under lowsec sentry fire. A well-equipped gatecamp might well be expected to have one, but they were the exception rather than the rule.

Is this a good change for the gatecamping ecosystem? I don't know. But it's certainly a significant change from a universe where 90% webs were the exclusive purview of T2 and faction hulls.

Yeah minus 200,000 eHP or so.

Oh well, going to have to lock it up and hope you get lucky.

I don't see you whiners about the Talos come up and say it's silly the shortest range weapons system is screwed with overpowered scorch pulses shooting nuclear dmg at 65km +

I don't see you whiners bothered because you have overall the best line up ships in eve

I don't see you whiners, at least once, admit gallente ships/guns are completely screwed

Now the Talos, if, he gets some web bonus are making you whine because you have to use tactics and brains.

Wow, isn't this cute...

Now let me get this straight: I for once will maybe start flying Gallente since I'm flying now Minmatar because I don't have the choice if I want to fleet up.

Alpha? -Amarr Minmatar
Skirmish? -Amarr Minmatar
Med engagements? : Minmatar Amarr Drakes
Undock games? -wtfpown pilgrims curses rapiers munnins zealots vagas cynabals dramiels DD's and I'll stop here
Logistics? - Scimitars Guardians, sometimes (really rare) Basilisk

So gallente gets one ship, with one bonus needed if you don't want blasters to get your pulse optimal and autos tracking, and you find ways to whine...

from the data mine I see 2272 base armor hp + 5 low slots(4md, 8 high). Remember - the name BC refers to 2 types of cruisers - cruisers with armor of BS OR cruisers with guns of BS.

2272 base armor is a tiny bit less than that of the navy vexor and 1 slot less. So go forth my children and fit a navy vexor with 5 low slots only and thou shalt have the possible talos armor .

thought the previous posts said it was a tackling ship due to it's web bonus :).

If you ask me I'll do high speed shield fits and lows filled with 3 or 4 damage mods but I am just a speed freak, plus fleets I run with usually has scimitars as logis, so I tend to mold everything into that shape.

[quote=Songbird]thought the previous posts said it was a tackling ship due to it's web bonus :).

thought the previous posts said it was a tackling ship due to it's web bonus :).

If you ask me I'll do high speed shield fits and lows filled with 3 or 4 damage mods but I am just a speed freak, plus fleets I run with usually has scimitars as logis, so I tend to mold everything into that shape.

I don't see you whiners about the Talos come up and say it's silly the shortest range weapons system is screwed with overpowered scorch pulses shooting nuclear dmg at 65km +

I don't see you whiners bothered because you have overall the best line up ships in eve

I don't see you whiners, at least once, admit gallente ships/guns are completely screwed

Now the Talos, if, he gets some web bonus are making you whine because you have to use tactics and brains.

Wow, isn't this cute...

Now let me get this straight: I for once will maybe start flying Gallente since I'm flying now Minmatar because I don't have the choice if I want to fleet up.

Alpha? -Amarr Minmatar
Skirmish? -Amarr Minmatar
Med engagements? : Minmatar Amarr Drakes
Undock games? -wtfpown pilgrims curses rapiers munnins zealots vagas cynabals dramiels DD's and I'll stop here
Logistics? - Scimitars Guardians, sometimes (really rare) Basilisk

So gallente gets one ship, with one bonus needed if you don't want blasters to get your pulse optimal and autos tracking, and you find ways to whine...

There was a reason to reduce web strength to 75%. Introducing 90% webs on the most popular combat ship class looks like backpaddeling.
Well, lets see how it performs on SiSi.

Whoa! I walk away from my thread for 2 hours everyone's accusing me of whining. That wasn't my intent at all.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the Talos's ewar bonus. It's an interesting decision, and I honestly think that the ship class is going to be successful, they either have to have a tracking bonus, a range (optimal/falloff) bonus, or an ewar bonus -- large turrets simply aren't going to track the targets these will hunt without them. If the Talos is going to be a blaster platform, a web bonus is only sensible.

I just wanted to take a look at the ramifications of theTalos as a heavy-tackle platform in one of the more common Eve PvP environments. This is why I said I didn't know if it would be a good or bad change.

I'm looking forward to seeing these ships hit Tranquility. I wanted a chance to discuss the effect of their ewar bonus. Please don't accuse me of whining prematurely?

how is this any different from sitting a dual web rapier on a gate? Same web strength, but with more than twice as much range. As far as I know, those are not game breaking, so how is this again?

CCP is just clueless at what they are doing. It was clearly not enough to see all those drakes and canes around, now we're getting a new breed of the same OP dirt-cheap crap everyone will jump onto.

Yeah, let's remove even those remains of diversity we still have. Let it be BC Online.

Hell I tossed my cofee by my nose when I just read this stuff

"there was a reason to reduce strength to 75%"

"introducing 90% webs on the most popular combat ship"

How's that??

Canes and Drakes are getting 75% webs?

How powerful Rapiers will be with 75% strength webs?

How about stop smoking your funny stuff?

CCP is just clueless at what they are doing. It was clearly not enough to see all those drakes and canes around, now we're getting a new breed of the same OP dirt-cheap crap everyone will jump onto.

Yeah, let's remove even those remains of diversity we still have. Let it be BC Online.

better BC online then supercap online.

I think someone is just butthurt, cause they wasted SP on command ships and are wanting to fit them for combat, rather then you know, ganglinks, like they ar designed for.

Much has been made about the Tornado and its potential for suicide ganking, but I think the forums have so far missed a bigger issue in the tier-3 battlecruiser designs.

The Talos offers a 90% web on a dirt cheap hull. Every gate camp will now have one.

The Talos also offers a powerful blaster suicide ganking platform when the Brutix won't cut it. It's tasty.

Ain't none of you motherfuckers ever making it back to the gate again.

Gallente have been the lame ducks of EVE since the web nerf a few years back (years back? has it been so long??).

Ain't none of you motherfuckers ever making it back to the gate again.

Dual webs are about an 81% speed reduction. That's a far shot from 90, and there's nothing preventing a Talos from fitting dual webs, either -- which correspond to a 97.8% web. To give you an idea, the victim of your poor rapier would be going almost 9x faster.

I like it. It allows cheaper gangs and thus, higher engagement rate.

I personally am sick of the chicken **** attitude people take because they are in an expensive ship.

I think CCP is fully aware of what they are doing. They just don't care if it expands on Battlecruisers Online because BC Online means a lot of subscribers.

That simply is part of eve. If you want this gone, make risk more profitable.

I don't think so. If anything, it causes boredom and results in sub losses at the long run.

im thinking this ship may use the webs to get rails to track if they even use this bonus we are a few months off from them putting this patch out so anything could change

That simply is part of eve. If you want this gone, make risk more profitable.

I don't see you whiners about the Talos come up and say it's silly the shortest range weapons system is screwed with overpowered scorch pulses shooting nuclear dmg at 65km +

I don't see you whiners bothered because you have overall the best line up ships in eve

I don't see you whiners, at least once, admit gallente ships/guns are completely screwed

Now the Talos, if, he gets some web bonus are making you whine because you have to use tactics and brains.

Wow, isn't this cute...

Now let me get this straight: I for once will maybe start flying Gallente since I'm flying now Minmatar because I don't have the choice if I want to fleet up.

But before that they were the - by far - strongest race in game for years. Nos/drone platforms, 90% webs, no bandwidth on ships, etc.

What e-war will the other races use to balance a 90% web bonus?
With the Talos being a baby vindi, and the Tornado a baby Macha, will the amarr tier 3 BC be a Bhaal? No question about the Caldari, since faction BSs of that kind usually have mostly tank bonuses, and the Tier 3 BC won't be an ECM boat...

Imho it's too much to have 90% web, and re-hauled large blasters...

this is really spot on.

A teir 1 ship cant get a faction or recon bonus to help it, especially while the rest of the new class are left out with only direct sweapon bonuses.

Now if you wanted to change all tracking bonuses on all teir 1 gall ships to 5% (not 10%) per level of web strength, that would be somthing, and then make sense for the new teir 3 bc to have 5% strength too.

I want your range of engagement with my blasters, are you ok with that?

Lets see: 65km scorch pulse and without push it too far 75 for autos. I want 60 with my blasters, so I'll keep the closest range and no need web bonus.

I'm not asking anything else, just range for my blasters or ways to catch and hold my enemy's.

Why is it fair you can shoot from 65 or + km with your shortest range weapon system?

Why isn't fair the shortest range weapon system, to remind you end of fall off is about 25km scratching paint, to get something to hold targets and melt them?
Is their supposed niche or not?

Why is it fair you can shoot from 65 or + km with your shortest range weapon system?

Why isn't fair the shortest range weapon system, to remind you end of fall off is about 25km scratching paint, to get something to hold targets and melt them?
Is their supposed niche or not?

I don't see you whiners about the Talos come up and say it's silly the shortest range weapons system is screwed with overpowered scorch pulses shooting nuclear dmg at 65km +

I don't see you whiners bothered because you have overall the best line up ships in eve

I don't see you whiners, at least once, admit gallente ships/guns are completely screwed

Now the Talos, if, he gets some web bonus are making you whine because you have to use tactics and brains.

we should take off all ships & everyone should fly drakes !

where are you seeing the bonuses for the new ships?
ive been keeping an eye for them and cant find bonuses or stats

Every roaming gang we take out will have a Talos. Every gatecamp. Every time we leave the home system to PVP and we're not rolling frigates or cloakies. Shield or Armor tanked.

Why?

Because 90% webs are deadly to jump into. When we put a serious fleet together there are specific ships needed. Dictors/Scout/Tackle Frig/3+ Logis/command ships... When all is said and done it isn't always workable to ask someone to spend 100 mil on a daredevil so **** can't get back to the gate. The people who can fly them may be doing other vital tasks. Now all we have to do is grab some idiot noob out of our blob of idiot noobs with some pocket change and BC 3 + Gallente Cruiser 3 and we're set.

Anybody feel like flying down to Catch USTZ?

Course for a serious camp nothing can beat multiple daredevils each being boosted by two remote sebos, a couple light dictors with delayed bubble, a loki/claymore, and some mid sized sebod arty boats. Dramiel won't make it back through that.

You can already fit double web on hulls with double hp Talos will have.
2x 60% webs have more impact on targets than 1x 87% web, why people don't do it?

Two questions:
1) Where did 87% come from? The closest thing I could think of is using an X5 web (with reduced strength) which doesn't make a whole lot of sense on a web strength-bonused hull.

2) Even if it was 87%, a single 87% web is more effective than 2x 60% webs. But realistically, people will put a 90% web on the Talos and in that case you need four 60% webs to (roughly) match it. And like Amarr laid out earlier, the Talos can simply fit two webs.

2 Answers

1-F.Y.A.

2-Why?

To be honest if you get two normal webs on you then you suffer the same issue so I think your point is moot.

And what do you think two 90% webs will do to a ship?

You are complaining that blasters aren't pulse lasers.

Given how the new tier3s are going to be flown (or how they're supposed to at least) this kind of a really, REALLY big deal in terms of balance. You've got a ship class that's paper thin, that's supposed to use its speed and its range to tank the things it fights, and yet one of these ships (the talos) can't actually do anything past 20km. It damn well BETTER have an absurd bonus for what it can do close range, or else the damn thing will NEVER get used over it's much more survivable-by-virtue-of-range counterparts.

As for the whole issue of 90% webs in gatecamps, if you've got a bunch of people camping a gate, and you have no scout, and you jump into their gatecamp, you SHOULD die. The idea that damn near any small fast ship can slip by a group of any size with no risk at all is absurd.

Also, 90% webs on everything was a problem, especially after the nano nerf. 90% webs on one battlecruiser with the ehp of a t1 cruiser is not a problem.

You can already fit double web on hulls with double hp Talos will have.
2x 60% webs have more impact on targets than 1x 87% web, why people don't do it?

according to eft: a ship going 101m/s with one 90% web will go 10m/s and with two will go 2m/s.

The same 101m/s ship with a 60% web goes 41m/s, with two webs goes 21m/s with 3 goes 14m/s and with 4 goes 12.

So a talos with two 90% webs will slow a target by approx 98% (99% with 3) thats quite significantly better than an umlimited amount of normal strenght webs due to stacking.

Since its not faction or t2, thats why above i said it should be a half bonus of 5% for a 75% web and even thats a bit generous since the other teir 3 BC only get weapon bonuses.

Given how the new tier3s are going to be flown (or how they're supposed to at least) this kind of a really, REALLY big deal in terms of balance. You've got a ship class that's paper thin, that's supposed to use its speed and its range to tank the things it fights, and yet one of these ships (the talos) can't actually do anything past 20km. It damn well BETTER have an absurd bonus for what it can do close range, or else the damn thing will NEVER get used over it's much more survivable-by-virtue-of-range counterparts.

As for the whole issue of 90% webs in gatecamps, if you've got a bunch of people camping a gate, and you have no scout, and you jump into their gatecamp, you SHOULD die. The idea that damn near any small fast ship can slip by a group of any size with no risk at all is absurd.

Also, 90% webs on everything was a problem, especially after the nano nerf. 90% webs on one battlecruiser with the ehp of a t1 cruiser is not a problem.

Ain't none of you motherfuckers ever making it back to the gate again.

Probably about 95% web. About the same as 90% web. Because of diminishing returns. The effect will be that "you're not getting back to gate".

Point I'm making is; 90% web will make a massive difference for a solo ship but not a massive difference for a fleet because after 2-3 webs on you it doesn't really change a thing.

The tank of the Talos is so low that it is an unlikely choice for a solo gate camp. Even then the range of web and targeting speed will limit effectiveness. In a gang it will be a nice addition but nothing unique.

I never complained about the 90% web bonus. I'm just pointing out that Tanya apparently wants blasters to be Pulse v2.0, in which case, why not just use pulse and leave blasters their niche?

And I still think its goign to be hilarious when squads of 6-8 destroyers come in and gank waves upon waves of these new BCs. there is a reason I laugh when I see BSs when im in a pilgrim gang, tracking disrupt the other 3 and kite the Talos not to hard.

As stated a zillion times before, a dirt cheap 1300+ dps hull will have some rather large negative effects on the world of eve even if it does not have a web bonus.

A Brutix can do 1k, a Astarte can even do the 1.3k today just fine and both got zero effect on eve.

according to eft: a ship going 101m/s with one 90% web will go 10m/s and with two will go 2m/s.

The same 101m/s ship with a 60% web goes 41m/s, with two webs goes 21m/s with 3 goes 14m/s and with 4 goes 12.

So a talos with two 90% webs will slow a target by approx 98% (99% with 3) thats quite significantly better than an umlimited amount of normal strenght webs due to stacking.

It damn well BETTER have an absurd bonus for what it can do close range, or else the damn thing will NEVER get used over it's much more survivable-by-virtue-of-range counterparts.

As for the whole issue of 90% webs in gatecamps, if you've got a bunch of people camping a gate, and you have no scout, and you jump into their gatecamp, you SHOULD die. The idea that damn near any small fast ship can slip by a group of any size with no risk at all is absurd.

As stated a zillion times before, a dirt cheap 1300+ dps hull will have some rather large negative effects on the world of eve even if it does not have a web bonus.

Can't say I am surprised. Looking at the numbers posted above, a 90% web seemed pretty OP. ofc, you would still have had to get in range to use it. But it would have been beyond facemelting. More like head-exploding Hakuto-shinken Fist of the North-Star Kenshiro on a rampage stuff.

...

ok, maybe I'm exaggerating. But not by much.

Its a quite insignificant difference. as its just a difference of about 10m/s. Either way, "the ****** won-¦t make it back". Its kinda the same argument like eft warriors use when they increase dps on missions ships to maximum, and while they really do 50 dps more, they are still need the same amount of volleys to kill their targets.

You need as much web as you need to achieve your goal. And while a 90% web is sleightly better than two 60%, its still just safes you a mid slot.

Right -- because large blasters don't have a range advantage over their medium counterparts at all. That'd be crazy.

Much has been made about the Tornado and its potential for suicide ganking, but I think the forums have so far missed a bigger issue in the tier-3 battlecruiser designs.

The Talos offers a 90% web on a dirt cheap hull. Every gate camp will now have one.

One of the common strategies for a gatecamp is burning back to gate and going back the way you came. With an overheated MWD and a bit of momentum, you can often manage to make it back in a decently agile hull. With 90% webs on the field, this changes.

Previously, 90% webs were reserved for nine ships. All of them cost at least 100 million isk and none were insurable in the slightest. The cheapest two were frigates, and therefore difficult to keep alive under lowsec sentry fire. A well-equipped gatecamp might well be expected to have one, but they were the exception rather than the rule.

Is this a good change for the gatecamping ecosystem? I don't know. But it's certainly a significant change from a universe where 90% webs were the exclusive purview of T2 and faction hulls.

I thought blasters were supposed to have face melting dps. Surely, blasters do more damage at point blank than lasers? I can see blasters with damage bonus rather than trying to mold them into second grade auto cannons or lasers. It makes them situational sure, but thats a good thing since it adds gameplay variety and cater to a different (daredevil) play style.

Having zero chance of escaping is as absurd as always escaping. It makes the game too predictable and less interesting to play.

Ten times slower. I'll let that one sit for a while.

I give you 1 ISK and than I make I give you 1000 times this number, You won-¦t notice it in your wallet still.

With 90% webs vs dual-webs with 60% you are just overachieving your goal. Your target it either way a sitting duck. It may be a ten times slower sitting duck with 90% webs, which is completely irrelevant. Absolute Numbers matters sometimes more than multipliers.


Just to show you WHY it is irrelevant that it may be 10 or even 100 times slower.

100 m/s base speed
10 m/s = 10 times slower , 90% reduction of speed
1 m/ms = 100 times slower, just 9% gain over 90%.
0.1 m/s = 1000 times slower, just 99.9% reduction of speed.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

First of all, why use a 100 m/s ship as base? Naturally, it doesn't matter if that ship is going at 5, 10 or 20 m/s. But it does make a difference if the ship is going 50, 100 or 200 m/s. It makes a huge difference. In a Talos, even with tracking bonuses, you're not going to be able to hit a ship going at 200 transversal. Also, the time it takes the ship to reach the gate is a factor. At 200 m/s he may just make it.

I agree it's all a lot of "ifs" and "perhaps". But that said, I wouldn't underestimate 90% webs. I've hit frigates with Tachyons using a single 90% web, simply by aligning to reduce transversal. That could not be done with a 60% web.

Lastly, when you say that 100 times slower is just a 9% gain over 90%, you're missing the point. It's not a 9% gain, it's a 9 percent-point gain. It's the same with resistances. If you have 50% resistance and add a 50% hardener, you reduce incoming damage by 50%, even though your resistance "only" goes up to 75%. It's a 25% difference in the actual resistance value, but it's a 50% difference in damage taken. And that's what matters.

Talos has lost it's web bonus and drone bay in exchange for a tracking bonus and slight speed increase

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29468