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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
740
   |
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:
The issue is the players. A big part of the problem are the griefers (to quote Tippia)
who sit in rookiechats and -systems telling everybody that they shoudln't ever go to low,
because it's a deathtrap.
They tell them to run missions or mine for isk,
as if playing solo right from the start was a good idea.
Players' behaviour can be be steered best right from the beginning,
and these people do exactly that, with bad consequences for the whole population.
"griefers" as you call them aren't wrong tho: low-sec is a deathtrap for new unprepared player. Only after you got some game experience you can do something there. And reason is what? Yes, players. Not "griefers" but real low-sec "badasses".
And here is the reason why low-sec missions don't attract high-sec mission runners. And reason why rewards won't help. |
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Riot Girl wrote:My idea is to remove level 4s from low sec and buff low sec missions to give better rewards as follows;
Low sec level 1 = High sec level 2
Low sec level 2 = High sec level 3
Low sec level 3 = High sec level 4
This will give new players a choice. They can either stay in high sec and skill up a badly trained BS to run level 4s, or they can take their BC into low sec and get the same reward running level 3s. They will be able to cover the cost of a lost ship with just a few missions so the risk is more appealing and they will get into fights and find the game a lot more enjoyable, plus it will bring more targets into lowsec for gankers so there will be more enjoyable gameplay for all.
No. CCP has proven time and again that throwing more money at people doesn't help. You have the wrong perspective. The issue is the players. A big part of the problem are the griefers (to quote Tippia) who sit in rookiechats and -systems telling everybody that they shoudln't ever go to low, because it's a deathtrap. They tell them to run missions or mine for isk, as if playing solo right from the start was a good idea. Players' behaviour can be be steered best right from the beginning, and these people do exactly that, with bad consequences for the whole population. As a newer player, what exactly do you think a 2011 toon can do to a maxed skill PVP 2006 player?
everything he wants ... total SP does not apply to what you are flying.
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3784
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Your a hero kiddo. LOL....
You're such a brave and mighty forum warrior ... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16238
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:
As a newer player, what exactly do you think a 2011 toon can do to a maxed skill PVP 2006 player?
Plenty, there's a skill cap on each ship and weapon class, a maxxed 2006 PvP pilot in a cruiser or BC for example, is probably using 10% of his available skillpoints, because the rest are irrelevant to the ship and weapons. Where he does have an advantage, is his experience and knowledge of game mechanics, and exactly what the ship is and is not capable of doing. SP is not that important, experience and knowledge are, it's the same for the ships, what you do with them is more important than the ships themselves.
Just to elaborate on this. A 2011 character should have amassed about 40GÇô50M SP by now. A 2006 character will have somewhere in the region of 150M.
The maximum amount of SP you can put to use in a standard T1 combat cruiser or BC isGǪ [drum roll]GǪ a bit over 30 million.
In other words, there is nothing but player choice that keeps those two characters from being perfectly equal in what kind of performance they can squeeze out of such a ship. Rather, what would keep that from happening is that it's a hideously bad idea in terms of value for your time to max out all those skills. The 2006 character might choose to do so because s/he has run out of things to train, but the overall advantage of those last lvl-V skills is minute and fairly easy to compensate for with proper flying.
March rabbit wrote:"griefers" as you call them aren't wrong tho: low-sec is a deathtrap for new unprepared player. Nah. The griefers are still wrong. You should go to lowsec, partly because it's a deathtrap. Learn to deal with it early on when it costs nothing GÇö that's the best way to prepare. It also massively increases your odds of coming across someone who will pick you up and actually teach you something other than GÇ£Don't do it! You're not ready!!GÇ¥
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Your a hero kiddo. LOL.... You're such a brave and mighty forum warrior ...
lol again Solsice, really go find something better to do than beef in this thread. Tippia made the best post in here. If we start from there perhapts we can move along in here.
|
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
With regards to PVP and skill points... Why if you are into the PVE aspect would you start off building PVP skillsets? So the 2011 PVE/Indi or /miner... Verses a 2006 PVP pilot. Not really the point here. I was trying to have a discussion about missions and got hijacked by a bored individual that needs to go start his own thread. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16238
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Why if you are into the PVE aspect would you start off building PVP skillsets? Because they're the same skills.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Whatever! lol... Refinining mission scrap has very little to do with PVP. |
Khemax
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Training mining skills is nothing like training PvP skills....Unless of course your T2 strip miner is your favourite weapon in PvP, and those T2 mining crystal skills really work well in PvP too.
 |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1619
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Whatever! lol... Refinining mission scrap has very little to do with PVP.
It also has very little to do with mission running. It's a mining skill.
Oh god. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Whatever! lol... Refinining mission scrap has very little to do with PVP. It also has very little to do with mission running. It's a mining skill.
So now salvage has nothing to do with missioning?
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3784
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Your a hero kiddo. LOL.... You're such a brave and mighty forum warrior ... lol again Solsice, really go find something better to do than beef in this thread. Tippia made the best post in here. If we start from there perhapts we can move along in here. I agree.
No need to continue this on the forum. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16238
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Whatever! lol... Refinining mission scrap has very little to do with PVP. It also has very little to do with mission running. It's a mining skill. So now salvage has nothing to do with missioning?
Salvaging has nothing to do with refining scrap.
And no, it doesn't particularly have anything to do with missions either GÇö it has to do with extracting materials from wrecks, and wrecks can be created in a number of waysGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Whatever! lol... Refinining mission scrap has very little to do with PVP. It also has very little to do with mission running. It's a mining skill. So now salvage has nothing to do with missioning? Salvaging has nothing to do with refining scrap. And no, it doesn't particularly have anything to do with missions either GÇö it has to do with extracting materials from wrecks, and wrecks can be created in a number of waysGǪ
You mission... You salvage...You get scrap... You grind with the corporation to get better refine... Do you not then refine the materials you have collected in your PVE enviroment?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16238
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 10:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:You mission... You salvage...You get scrap... You grind with the corporation to get better refine... Do you not then refine the materials you have collected in your PVE enviroment? No. You get materials that are used as-is that you have collected in a PvP environment. Those materials can be extracted from any wreck you come across, so there's nothing that particularly connects it to missions.
If you're talking about refining loot, thenGǪ wellGǪ then we're talking about loot, not salvage.
If you're talking about scrap metals, then still no, because those are a huge waste of space and you toss them out the airlock.
Either way, salvaging has nothing to do with refining scrap or with mission-running, and refining itself has more to do with mining than anything else.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:03:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:With regards to PVP and skill points... Why if you are into the PVE aspect would you start off building PVP skillsets? So the 2011 PVE/Indi or /miner... Verses a 2006 PVP pilot. Not really the point here. I was trying to have a discussion about missions and got hijacked by a bored individual that needs to go start his own thread.
Ok how should i put this ...
Even if you are skilling for PVE content you still need guns to shoot rats you still need a tank and you still need to fit a ship
so
Engineering
Electronics
Navigation
Gunnery(or missiles)
Space ship command
Drones
are very relevant skills ....
The only difference between a pvp player and a PVE is the ability to ...what use a scram a TD
The main difference between a 2006 player and a 2011 player is choices
For example I can use all race and ship class (sub cap) because i have the SP but once i pick a ship out of my SP pool only a few buckets apply to said ship. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
596
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:I think the matter of low sec missioning is a little off topic on the basis of this thread. I was wondering more about the massive amount of time and developement spent grinding for standings and running missions. There is a HUGE decrease in worth while results for the effort. That and no new anything on the mission front since it's primary inception!
Hig-sec L4 payout is huge in a risk vs reward view. L4 had to be limited to low/null from the beginning. In the last years anyway they got nerfed several time, last one the FW LP store is a relevant indirect nerf to hig-sec L4.
Also focusing the misison reward more on LP helps, cause make the income variable and affected by the market; and this is good to keep them in line. Aka: more L4 grinding -> more LP items offer on the market -> lower income.
Hi sec missons have 2 major problems:
1. They are an infinite and player controlled resource spawn: there's no timer or competition for such resource, any player can spawn this resource freely and unlimited as they wish. The LP store system mitigate this some, but still is an issue and make dangerous to add something in term of rewards.
2. Do not produce chances for players interacions (and this is granted by HS cocnord mechanics). As already pointed out this hardly fit with a sandbox setting. This is a common missunderstanding: HS misisoners often claim their right to do their gameplay and not forced/affected by someone else gameplay; but, at the same time, they affect other players gameplay, indirectly, in terms of item delivered on the markets and so on. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
Home Front Coalition
649
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 11:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The griefers are still wrong. You should go to lowsec, partly because it's a deathtrap. Learn to deal with it early on when it costs nothing GÇö that's the best way to prepare. It also massively increases your odds of coming across someone who will pick you up and actually teach you something other than GÇ£Don't do it! You're not ready!!GÇ¥
Quoted for absolute truth. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:07:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tyrton wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:With regards to PVP and skill points... Why if you are into the PVE aspect would you start off building PVP skillsets? So the 2011 PVE/Indi or /miner... Verses a 2006 PVP pilot. Not really the point here. I was trying to have a discussion about missions and got hijacked by a bored individual that needs to go start his own thread. Ok how should i put this ... Even if you are skilling for PVE content you still need guns to shoot rats you still need a tank and you still need to fit a ship so Engineering Electronics Navigation Gunnery(or missiles) Space ship command Drones are very relevant skills .... The only difference between a pvp player and a PVE is the ability to ...what use a scram a TD The main difference between a 2006 player and a 2011 player is choices For example I can use all race and ship class (sub cap) because i have the SP but once i pick a ship out of my SP pool only a few buckets apply to said ship.
I get what you guys are trying to say. Still an noob with mining and indi, can run a good L4 mission ship and not be comparable to a soley dedicated PVP pilot even in the course of 2 or more years of focus.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16240
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Still an noob with mining and indi, can run a good L4 mission ship and not be comparable to a soley dedicated PVP pilot even in the course of 2 or more years of focus.
If he can run a good L4 mission ship, he'll be able to run a good PvP ship as well, and the fact that he has also trained mining and industrials doesn't change this fact. In fact, if anything, it just reinforces it since those ships require the same core skills to work properly.
This is not a class-based game, where training one profession precludes you from doing other things.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Separate from the PVP verse PVE issue... There were a couple good posts on topic. I am mostly curious to see if there will be any new ideas in the area of missioning. I guess given the direction of the posts there isn't much sunshine at the end of that tunnel. PVP is the general direction I guess folks are pushing for. Seems to make sence when the arguments for go the way these have gone. I hope to see more stuff on the actual PVE/Indi type of stuff and less on the PVP stuff for the future of the posts. I guess it's whatever it will be at this point.
|
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
403
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Riot Girl wrote:My idea is to remove level 4s from low sec and buff low sec missions to give better rewards as follows;
Low sec level 1 = High sec level 2
Low sec level 2 = High sec level 3
Low sec level 3 = High sec level 4
This will give new players a choice. They can either stay in high sec and skill up a badly trained BS to run level 4s, or they can take their BC into low sec and get the same reward running level 3s. They will be able to cover the cost of a lost ship with just a few missions so the risk is more appealing and they will get into fights and find the game a lot more enjoyable, plus it will bring more targets into lowsec for gankers so there will be more enjoyable gameplay for all.
No. CCP has proven time and again that throwing more money at people doesn't help. You have the wrong perspective. The issue is the players. A big part of the problem are the griefers (to quote Tippia) who sit in rookiechats and -systems telling everybody that they shoudln't ever go to low, because it's a deathtrap. They tell them to run missions or mine for isk, as if playing solo right from the start was a good idea. Players' behaviour can be be steered best right from the beginning, and these people do exactly that, with bad consequences for the whole population. As a newer player, what exactly do you think a 2011 toon can do to a maxed skill PVP 2006 player?
heres a few suggestions off the top of my head
1. Warp scramble him long enough for your friends to come in and kill him
2. Jam him out using ecm so he gets frustrated and warps off/ cant fight back as you and your friends kill him
3. tracking disrupt him so his turrets cant hit you in your fast orbiting tackler, then your friends come and kill him
4. lead him into a gatecamp, you and your friends kill him
5. light a cyno so your friends can bridge on top of him and kill him
6. realise that since only a portion of skill points apply to any one ship you can specialise and be just as good as him in that ship within the time frame youve set. Then bring some friends and kill him.
spotting a common theme yet??
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3787
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Separate from the PVP verse PVE issue... There were a couple good posts on topic. I am mostly curious to see if there will be any new ideas in the area of missioning. I guess given the direction of the posts there isn't much sunshine at the end of that tunnel. PVP is the general direction I guess folks are pushing for. Seems to make sence when the arguments for go the way these have gone. I hope to see more stuff on the actual PVE/Indi type of stuff and less on the PVP stuff for the future of the posts. I guess it's whatever it will be at this point.
I sure and honestly hope you'll enjoy all the increased PvP activity in your future.
Edit: accidentially a word |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:23:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Still an noob with mining and indi, can run a good L4 mission ship and not be comparable to a soley dedicated PVP pilot even in the course of 2 or more years of focus. If he can run a good L4 mission ship, he'll be able to run a good PvP ship as well, and the fact that he has also trained mining and industrials doesn't change this fact. In fact, if anything, it just reinforces it since those ships require the same core skills to work properly. This is not a class-based game, where training one profession precludes you from doing other things.
Okay your right... A mission Rattler verses a PVP hurricane is exactly the same thing, so is a Navy Raven PVE verses a Vigilant setup for PVP. LOL what are you smoking? And neither do Indi/Mining skills have a direct corelation to PVP. Hulkageddon ring any bells? |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Separate from the PVP verse PVE issue... There were a couple good posts on topic. I am mostly curious to see if there will be any new ideas in the area of missioning. I guess given the direction of the posts there isn't much sunshine at the end of that tunnel. PVP is the general direction I guess folks are pushing for. Seems to make sence when the arguments for go the way these have gone. I hope to see more stuff on the actual PVE/Indi type of stuff and less on the PVP stuff for the future of the posts. I guess it's whatever it will be at this point.
I sure and honestly hope you'll enjoy all the increased PvP activity in your future. Edit: accidentially a word
I posted on here with regards to finding out more information on missioning. Not to change my direction in the game. You started off offensive and have now go so far as to threaten PVP. LOL...Have fun doing whatever you want. Obviously it's all about you  You can't take a hint when someone tells you to **** off. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3787
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:35:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Solstice Project wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Separate from the PVP verse PVE issue... There were a couple good posts on topic. I am mostly curious to see if there will be any new ideas in the area of missioning. I guess given the direction of the posts there isn't much sunshine at the end of that tunnel. PVP is the general direction I guess folks are pushing for. Seems to make sence when the arguments for go the way these have gone. I hope to see more stuff on the actual PVE/Indi type of stuff and less on the PVP stuff for the future of the posts. I guess it's whatever it will be at this point.
I sure and honestly hope you'll enjoy all the increased PvP activity in your future. Edit: accidentially a word I posted on here with regards to finding out more information on missioning. Not to change my direction in the game. You started off offensive and have now go so far as to threaten PVP. LOL...Have fun doing whatever you want. Obviously it's all about you You can't take a hint when someone tells you to **** off.
You're carrying your nose way too high, forum warrior...
You really believe telling somebody to **** off will make him go away, just because you say so?
You'll have a fun time, i'm sure... |
Jam Kirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
I'm not carrying my nose high at all. I just wanted to find out if there was a thought process on bringing more life into missioning. I had no intention of putting anyone down or picking a fight in the forums. I didn't want to go this direction at all. I'm no "Forum Warrior" . I'd much rather just discuss the missioning aspect more. I didn't jump on your thread and start anything. If picking on people for posting here is what you like to do.... All hail your massive epeen. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3788
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:I'm not carrying my nose high at all. I just wanted to find out if there was a thought process on bringing more life into missioning. I had no intention of putting anyone down or picking a fight in the forums. I didn't want to go this direction at all. I'm no "Forum Warrior" . I'd much rather just discuss the missioning aspect more. I didn't jump on your thread and start anything. If picking on people for posting here is what you like to do.... All hail your massive epeen.
I replied trying to help, even if i sound rather harsh.
I do. That's me. Many know me enough to know how it's meant
and my english isn't my best.
You otoh started attacking me, even in a subtle way.
Telling me to leave or to "**** off" clearly shows you don't understand that you shouldn't
tell people things you can't actually carry out. Carrying your nose too high.
Forum war. That's silly.
We'll end this ingame, of course.
It's not your choice anymore, unless... hm...
Try apologizing...
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3788
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 12:56:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Tippia wrote:Jam Kirk wrote:Still an noob with mining and indi, can run a good L4 mission ship and not be comparable to a soley dedicated PVP pilot even in the course of 2 or more years of focus. If he can run a good L4 mission ship, he'll be able to run a good PvP ship as well, and the fact that he has also trained mining and industrials doesn't change this fact. In fact, if anything, it just reinforces it since those ships require the same core skills to work properly. This is not a class-based game, where training one profession precludes you from doing other things. Okay your right... A mission Rattler verses a PVP hurricane is exactly the same thing, so is a Navy Raven PVE verses a Vigilant setup for PVP. LOL what are you smoking? And neither do Indi/Mining skills have a direct corelation to PVP. Hulkageddon ring any bells?
You don't understand her fully and reply in a way easily found offensive.
Try again. Tippia knows what she's talking about.
Thanks. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16241
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 13:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jam Kirk wrote:Okay your right. I know.
Quote:A mission Rattler verses a PVP hurricane is exactly the same thing, so is a Navy Raven PVE verses a Vigilant setup for PVP. GǪwhich, of course, no-one has ever claimed. What was said was that a character that can run a good L4 mission ship can run a good PvP ship as well.
In other words, if he's running L4s in an AC Sleipnir, the skills that let him do that will also let him fully fit and fly the aforementioned Hurricane. If he's running L4s in a Rattlesnake, the skills that let him do that will also let him fully fit and fly a particularly nasty PvP Dominix or, hell, just a PvP Rattler (both of which can rip a 'cane to shreds). If he can fly a PvE Navy Raven, he can easily get into a Drake or a standard Raven, and probably be very close to flying a Rokh or Naga GÇö all of which will do nasty things in PvP. If he can fly a Vigilant in PvE, he can fly a vigilant set up for PvP.
Quote:LOL what are you smoking? Ham, mostly. This gives me a fairly clear head and a full stomach, both of which lets me avoid being scatterbrained enough to miss the very simple fact that the same skills that go into a mission ship are the ones that go into a PvP ship.
Quote:And neither do Indi/Mining skills have a direct corelation to PVP. Industry and mining are PvP, so the correlation there is roughly 1:1.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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