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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
What gives CCP??? Item prices are not pulling from the API no longer?? Is this another "We forgot to add this in the patch notes" Discuss |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
3417
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
sad_trombone.wav
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
390
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:What gives CCP??? Item prices are not pulling from the API no longer?? Is this another "We forgot to add this in the patch notes" Discuss Here
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16305
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
GǪor maybe EVEMon is a crashy mess right now, and they haven't updated their own data scraping software to match the new format? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Some tools are working fine.
IPH for example. |
Ethereal Night
Stay Frosty.
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:Discuss
No.
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool, or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor.
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Sable Blitzmann
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:What gives CCP??? Item prices are not pulling from the API no longer?? Is this another "We forgot to add this in the patch notes" Discuss Here
Eve Central doesn't use the API servers for it's prices. CCP doesn't provide a market API. EVE central uses the EMDR network, which gets it's market data from EVEMon and other market uploaders. These market uploaders get their data from scraping the cache files of the client.
With Odyssey 1.1, CCP has changed the format of their cache. They have every right to do so. They have said before that cache scrapers are not guaranteed to not be affected by changes, or notified that such changes took place, as the cache is not designed to be a data source for third party developers. Scraping the cache files for market data is even strictly against the EULA (debatable, depending on who in CCP you ask), although they do not enforce it.
Unfortunately, we will have to wait until the various projects update their cache scrapers to work with the new format. This may or may not be trivial, depending on what changes CCP made. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
521
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sable Blitzmann wrote:Unfortunately, we will have to wait until the various projects update their cache scrapers to work with the new format. This may or may not be trivial, depending on what changes CCP made.
Updating Reverence is at the top of my todo list, but I am currently not in the same country as my dev environment >.> GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1474
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP, just provide a market API for Christ's sake. Very few people are going to spend hours a day to manually scroll through market data at each of the hubs if cache scraping isn't going to work. Then your dynamic market will stagnate and become the domain of the few with enough isk to motivate others to spend hours a day manually scrolling through the market data. HTFU!...for the children! |
Sable Blitzmann
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Entity wrote:Sable Blitzmann wrote:Unfortunately, we will have to wait until the various projects update their cache scrapers to work with the new format. This may or may not be trivial, depending on what changes CCP made. Updating Reverence is at the top of my todo list, but I am currently not in the same country as my dev environment >.>
So I've read. When will you be getting back? If I had any experience in Reverence I would help out with it. =( |
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Tron 3K
Ship Spinning Industries
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
How would something that gathers info and then "looks" at it be against the EULA? Now if it was trying to send something back to the server or game then I could see the problem. |
Sable Blitzmann
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 17:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tron 3K wrote:How would something that gathers info and then "looks" at it be against the EULA? Now if it was trying to send something back to the server or game then I could see the problem.
Ask CCP Stillman. I don't believe it's in violation, however what I believe doesn't matter. The EULA is designed to be vague enough for CCP to call the shots at what they believe is and is not against it. There was a whole fiasco about it a few months ago. Stillman is the one I've seen that more or less states it's against the EULA, but that they don't enforce it. I'm too lazy to look up where he said it.
EDIT: i lied. It was way easy to find. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899276#post2899276
Note that that statement hit devs like a brick wall, as it came out of nowhere and was before confirmed to not violate the EULA.
EDIT2: And here's another link where they plan to update the EULA, which may or may not be a good thing (they may outright say cache scraping is against the EULA), but also states that currently they wont enforce it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2900665#post2900665
But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes. |
Tseehn Marhn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
I use Eve Cache Parser for my software, and it looks like quite a bit has changed. It still seems to pull the right cache files; I looked at four items in the market, and the parser returned four cache files, but all the data is goofy. I only got five of the 13 or 14 sell orders listed, and I didn't get any buy orders at all. The orders I did get were contained in odd data types - like a dictionary where the key/value pair were both order data. However this behavior might be due to ECP parsing the cache files incorrectly now. The key thing missing is that there used to be a data structure named 'lret' that had all the order rows in it - lret is no longer there.
Until Desmont or another update their parser libraries, my development has halted. Given the fact that major developers have not found a solution yet, I'm guessing the changes are fairly extensive - perhaps cache scraping for market data is no longer viable.
If it is workaround-able, and the parser library devs take awhile to update their libs, I may have to write my own. In which case, does anyone know how the data is stored in the files? I'm assuming it's just serialized from Python.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
461
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tseehn Marhn wrote: If it is workaround-able, and the parser library devs take awhile to update their libs, I may have to write my own. In which case, does anyone know how the data is stored in the files? I'm assuming it's just serialized from Python.
You sure CCP didn't start encrypting it? Some data still visible?
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Hawelt
Warpspeed Shipping Inc.
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tron 3K wrote:How would something that gathers info and then "looks" at it be against the EULA? Now if it was trying to send something back to the server or game then I could see the problem.
I've played around with Reverence, crawled markets using IGB javascript, EMDR and such things in the past.
So far the responses to my past GM tickets essentially said that they don't mind until you build a system that interacts with or issues market orders on its own without user interaction.
EVE is a sandbox and so far its been quite benefitial to have reasonably accurate market information available. When there is a big interest in services like eve-central it seems like a bad idea to pull the plug on the data source without some discussion. |
Uila Tsi
Cobalt Academy Catastrophic Uprising
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP does not encrypt it. I use Eve Cache Parser as well only probably a bit different than everyone else. My market program still works fine so it it should be possible to still pull what you need. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
807
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP - removing spreadsheets from EvE...because Screw You, thats why
just uninstalled because nothing works...
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators WINMATAR.
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 20:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Minmatar hits T5 in faction warfare, LP store calculators stop working the next day.
LOL |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
359
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Well they did change the entire way item data was presented in game, not surprising it has massive carry over effects. |
Tseehn Marhn
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 21:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Tseehn Marhn wrote: If it is workaround-able, and the parser library devs take awhile to update their libs, I may have to write my own. In which case, does anyone know how the data is stored in the files? I'm assuming it's just serialized from Python.
You sure CCP didn't start encrypting it? Some data still visible?
Yes, some data is still visible. I got five seemingly random orders for an item I looked at, but all the data was there for those orders. I don't think CCP will ever encrypt the cache; I could be wrong, but I'd assume the extra overhead isn't worth it. Eliminating the cache altogether seems like a more likely approach.
Uila Tsi wrote:CCP does not encrypt it. I use Eve Cache Parser as well only probably a bit different than everyone else. My market program still works fine so it it should be possible to still pull what you need.
Would you mind telling how you use it? I set my includeMethodsFilter to "GetOrders", which seems to return the correct cache files, but searching through all the parsed data in those files I don't find all the orders. In particular, the 'lret' dictionary key no longer exists, which used to contain all the rows. It seems either the parser is not parsing correctly (and thus not returning all the orders), or not all the cache files are being found. |
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Admiral MastaKilla AlphaU
Itrek Innovations
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 22:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would happily give back this entire patch for my spreadsheets to work again #&$(&(#$$. |
CirroWing
Sky Boxers Northern Associates.
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP pls halp.
But seriously, the guys at EMDR are doing incredible stuff, it's a shame there's no support for easily accessable marketdata from CCP's end. |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 23:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
It would seem the new guy from "EA" is making himself right at home. |
Oggat
The Adam's Family
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
posting in a stealth remove local thread? |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
400
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 00:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
*something something outdated code being updated* *something something some apps using Eve-Central are running fine*
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4288
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Wonder what happened to break it. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
2019
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 01:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪor maybe EVEMon is a crashy mess right now, and they haven't updated their own data scraping software to match the new format? It's been working fine for me - from yesterday's update. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
747
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 05:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:CCP, just provide a market API for Christ's sake. Very few people are going to spend hours a day to manually scroll through market data at each of the hubs if cache scraping isn't going to work. Then your dynamic market will stagnate and become the domain of the few with enough isk to motivate others to spend hours a day manually scrolling through the market data.
That would require some actual work on CCPs part, so I wouldn't hold your breath.
I too am excited about trading playability for more lag and shiny pictures.....:( Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1884
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 09:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Wonder what happened to break it.
They changed the layout of the data in the cache. From what I've heard, it's mostly reorganising things like the namespace.
Pita to fix the cache scrapers, but not hellish difficult.
I've got a post up asking CCP for a crest based api, but it's a game design issue, rather than a technical one. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
578
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 10:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
After hauling a lot of ships and stuff from a POS in w-space (where they were in POS hangars and thus technically not in my possession) to a station in empire yesterday, I updated my jEveassets to see a nice high number on my 'total assets worth'. Instead it dropped to like 1 billion I guess now I know why... . |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
568
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sable Blitzmann wrote:
But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce.
In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional.
If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption.
That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.
Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
698
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
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kais58
Origin. Black Legion.
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sable Blitzmann wrote:
But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce. In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional. If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption. That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.
Thanks for this Stillman, we've got it mostly sorted now, a couple of the scraping libraries have been fixed and we're just waiting on the EveMon dev to accept the patch that was submitted to him then all should be back to normal. :) And I agree, unifying everything under your fancy carbon framework can only be a good thing ;) |
Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 11:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Wouldn't CREST access to market (at least to read) enable market scraping just like cache, only more precise :) |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
569
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Psihius wrote:Wouldn't CREST access to market (at least to read) enable market scraping just like cache, only more precise :) Certainly that's the logical conclusion. But if/when that would happen, I do not know. That's something I'd suggest you make the CSM push for. I'm pretty sure they'd agree with you.
Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Bill Saisima
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.09.05 12:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.
Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')... Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not. |
Uila Tsi
Cobalt Academy Catastrophic Uprising
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tseehn Marhn wrote:
Would you mind telling how you use it? I set my includeMethodsFilter to "GetOrders", which seems to return the correct cache files, but searching through all the parsed data in those files I don't find all the orders. In particular, the 'lret' dictionary key no longer exists, which used to contain all the rows. It seems either the parser is not parsing correctly (and thus not returning all the orders), or not all the cache files are being found.
I read from the .structure file that is created and from there you can see where buy/sell orders begin/end and check that you have order you want based on the rest of the data thats in the file. |
Uila Tsi
Cobalt Academy Catastrophic Uprising
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bill Saisima wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet. Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')... Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not.
It has already been posted in this thread. There was a long discussion about this topic https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899276#post2899276
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16310
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bill Saisima wrote:Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there.
So you don't feel that EULA -º9c: (You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so.) appliesGǪ why? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
570
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
Bill Saisima wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.. Lets start by looking at the EULA for a quick second
Quote:You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.
Seems pretty clear-cut to me. And our lawyers, this being a legal document, agrees that cache scraping is covered by this. That's not the intent, but it's what it says. We've gone over this topic in depth already, so I'm not going to engage in another discussion about this. It is what it is. We won't enforce it as far as cache scraping goes. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Daisai
Daisai Investments.
142
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
Bill Saisima wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet. Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')... Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not.
Its just like Icelandic banks, you give them money and they give you a 6% intrest, or they won't.
I know... Icesave jokes are so 2008... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4055
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways.
Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Uila Tsi
Cobalt Academy Catastrophic Uprising
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways. Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans.
I dont know about you but I can hit the market export button much faster than once every 5 seconds. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
570
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways. Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans.
Let me think about that suggestion for a quick second...
No Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
769
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
:) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices) Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Tron 3K
Ship Spinning Industries
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices) Eh I'd still like a way to see that info outside the game as I like using my chrome browser looking up things and comparing it to other things.. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
769
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tron 3K wrote:Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices) Eh I'd still like a way to see that info outside the game as I like using my chrome browser looking up things and comparing it to other things..
alternatively CCP could make market data public on their site Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4055
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 12:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways. Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans. Let me think about that suggestion for a quick second... No
What about requiring market exports to be performed by people wearing sackcloth while self-flagellating? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:
alternatively CCP could make market data public on their site
Actually you want them to make it available to 3rd party developers via their site, you don't really want them to make it available to all. Cache scraping and Eve central saved CCP from devoting resources to answering the same question n times which keeps things easy. As I recall there was some tedious reading/forum trawling about the Battlefield 2/2142 stat server issues and third parties and how things could be better arranged than they initially had been that would probably apply. Essentially letting third parties take the strain can be a very good idea. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
769
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Pap Uhotih wrote:Bubanni wrote:
alternatively CCP could make market data public on their site
Actually you want them to make it available to 3rd party developers via their site, you don't really want them to make it available to all. Cache scraping and Eve central saved CCP from devoting resources to answering the same question n times which keeps things easy. As I recall there was some tedious reading/forum trawling about the Battlefield 2/2142 stat server issues and third parties and how things could be better arranged than they initially had been that would probably apply. Essentially letting third parties take the strain can be a very good idea.
I agree with your point. Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1886
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 13:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
[broken record] Can we get a crest api for market data, with some caching please? [/broken record] Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
615
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices)
I guess that limiting market view to regions was both an issue of game design and an issue of DB performance/load.
If I remember correctly then the original 3:rd party solution was players working together and uploading data.
Including that individual players to decide which 3:rd party they wanted to work with (or which parties).
Which feels like a reasonable solution for people playing an MMO.
It can of course easily be solved with some form of centralised access or api but that leaves the game design question.
Should everyone have all the data directly provided by CCP or should players decide which data they want to share and with whom? CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1889
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices) I guess that limiting market view to regions was both an issue of game design and an issue of DB performance/load. If I remember correctly then the original 3:rd party solution was players working together and uploading data. Including that individual players to decide which 3:rd party they wanted to work with (or which parties). Which feels like a reasonable solution for people playing an MMO. It can of course easily be solved with some form of centralised access or api but that leaves the game design question. Should everyone have all the data directly provided by CCP or should players decide which data they want to share and with whom?
Limiting to regions also introduces benefits for traders. Sure, the thing /may/ be cheaper 6 jumps away, across a region boundary. But it might not be. Will you spend the time to go check? That Eve central data isn't entirely up to date, so maybe someone's already normalized the price?
One of the reasons I'd hope for a degree of caching on any official market data source. Live data, on demand, isn't good for the market. aggregated, or time delayed data can be. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
615
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:50:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:Blub blub Limiting to regions also introduces benefits for traders. Sure, the thing /may/ be cheaper 6 jumps away, across a region boundary. But it might not be. Will you spend the time to go check? That Eve central data isn't entirely up to date, so maybe someone's already normalized the price? One of the reasons I'd hope for a degree of caching on any official market data source. Live data, on demand, isn't good for the market. aggregated, or time delayed data can be. Yup I agree with you (as I assumed that I would, even before you answered ;)).
Just wanted to point out that the design issue is a bit more tricky than just having the data provided by some technomagic.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
|
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
770
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices) I guess that limiting market view to regions was both an issue of game design and an issue of DB performance/load. If I remember correctly then the original 3:rd party solution was players working together and uploading data. Including that individual players to decide which 3:rd party they wanted to work with (or which parties). Which feels like a reasonable solution for people playing an MMO. It can of course easily be solved with some form of centralised access or api but that leaves the game design question. Should everyone have all the data directly provided by CCP or should players decide which data they want to share and with whom? Limiting to regions also introduces benefits for traders. Sure, the thing /may/ be cheaper 6 jumps away, across a region boundary. But it might not be. Will you spend the time to go check? That Eve central data isn't entirely up to date, so maybe someone's already normalized the price? One of the reasons I'd hope for a degree of caching on any official market data source. Live data, on demand, isn't good for the market. aggregated, or time delayed data can be. Again valid points, but what if that data itself was "old" so when viewing market data from another region, it would be some days old, or from last dt, that would potentially save some server load, while also keeping competition healthy and allowing someone to still have potential profit
Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Minmatar hits T5 in faction warfare, LP store calculators stop working the next day.
LOL Cause --> effect? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4296
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:
If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption.
That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.
EvE is so great because we get those challenges that no other "premade" MMO gives.
We build communities around solving challenges like providing a live data stream, those communities reinforce players retention and attachment to the game that lets them get the satisfaction of being able and say: "yes we did it!
I dare say this "sandbox even outside the game" is an huge enticement to play EvE, we need *more* ways to develop and expand on "EvE the engine" and not removing current ways.
Therefore please keep us engaged with tasks like building data feeds and similar, it'd be very bad to drop one of the most distinguishing features (giving challenges to solve even with 3rd party utilities) of EvE. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 18:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
And how about making some colortags in your wallet for your market orders that show you when an order is not on top/bottom anymore? I would not call manually clicking all your orders to check how they are doing immersive gameplay.... |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Bill Saisima wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.. Lets start by looking at the EULA for a quick second Quote:You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. And our lawyers, this being a legal document, agrees that cache scraping is covered by this. That's not the intent, but it's what it says. We've gone over this topic in depth already, so I'm not going to engage in another discussion about this. It is what it is. We won't enforce it as far as cache scraping goes.
While i'm no lawyer, technically none of the things mentioned in the paragraph is done by cache scraping:
"You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet" ->Source code is not needed for cache scraping, so none of this applies imho.
" or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System" -> cache scraping doesn't look at any streams + it hasn't anything to do with source code
" If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology" -> doesn't affect cache scraping
What am i missing?
|
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Bill Saisima wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files). Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.. Lets start by looking at the EULA for a quick second Quote:You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. And our lawyers, this being a legal document, agrees that cache scraping is covered by this. That's not the intent, but it's what it says. We've gone over this topic in depth already, so I'm not going to engage in another discussion about this. It is what it is. We won't enforce it as far as cache scraping goes. While i'm no lawyer, technically none of the things mentioned in the paragraph is done by cache scraping: "You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet" ->Source code is not needed for cache scraping, so none of this applies imho. " or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System" -> cache scraping doesn't look at any streams + it hasn't anything to do with source code " If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology" -> doesn't affect cache scraping What am i missing? If you regard the (structure) of the cache files as 'source code' it would apply, but that's getting a bit technical on the linguistics.
|
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Tim Sebo
State War Academy Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: Seems pretty clear-cut to me. And our lawyers, this being a legal document, agrees that cache scraping is covered by this. That's not the intent, but it's what it says. We've gone over this topic in depth already, so I'm not going to engage in another discussion about this. It is what it is. We won't enforce it as far as cache scraping goes.
I suggest after humans go through the next apocalyptic event, we leave the idea of lawyers behind. |
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
Dirk Decibel wrote: If you regard the (structure) of the cache files as 'source code' it would apply, but that's getting a bit technical on the linguistics.
Computer science would consider that the cache was a part of the program, a program can be considered to be an area of memory, there is no limitation as to the volatility of that memory or the type or format of information stored at a location. That is a little technical but if you try to draw a line around what is Eve you would not be able to leave the cache on the outside of it.
It wouldn't count as source code as such, im not sure what's in it exactly but really source code is instructions where as a cache is data storage, it is what to process rather than how to process it. That said, holistically the cache will at some point form part of an instruction and an instruction cut into three is still an instruction even if it must be re-assembled to make sense.
The cache is compiled, it must be or it couldn't be there, the only way to read it is to decompile it - even if it is written in an open format. If you whipped out the binary and used your brain to read it that would still be decompiling. The cache clearly belongs to/is a part of the program and can not be treated or considered as if it is simply a random assembly of data that has occurred on your hard drive.
Discovering how the program works is obviously reverse engineering and you are learning a lot about an area of the program if you know that it is using a cache and the format of that cache - also as you know that information is coming via a data stream you could use that knowledge to discover more but I really don't think its a great plan to elaborate on how that is the case.
I don't see how there is even a slight question of if its against the EULA, it clearly is however there is effectively missing functionality and it is a nice courtesy from CCP that cache scraping is ignored. It would be in many ways much more sensible for them to take the opposite approach as it makes things a lot clearer and simpler. Definitely leave lawyers behind. |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:38:00 -
[63] - Quote
Pap Uhotih wrote: Computer science would consider that the cache was a part of the program, a program can be considered to be an area of memory, there is no limitation as to the volatility of that memory or the type or format of information stored at a location. That is a little technical but if you try to draw a line around what is Eve you would not be able to leave the cache on the outside of it.
It wouldn't count as source code as such, im not sure what's in it exactly but really source code is instructions where as a cache is data storage, it is what to process rather than how to process it. That said, holistically the cache will at some point form part of an instruction and an instruction cut into three is still an instruction even if it must be re-assembled to make sense.
The cache is compiled, it must be or it couldn't be there, the only way to read it is to decompile it - even if it is written in an open format. If you whipped out the binary and used your brain to read it that would still be decompiling. The cache clearly belongs to/is a part of the program and can not be treated or considered as if it is simply a random assembly of data that has occurred on your hard drive.
Discovering how the program works is obviously reverse engineering and you are learning a lot about an area of the program if you know that it is using a cache and the format of that cache - also as you know that information is coming via a data stream you could use that knowledge to discover more but I really don't think its a great plan to elaborate on how that is the case.
I don't see how there is even a slight question of if its against the EULA, it clearly is however there is effectively missing functionality and it is a nice courtesy from CCP that cache scraping is ignored. It would be in many ways much more sensible for them to take the opposite approach as it makes things a lot clearer and simpler. Definitely leave lawyers behind.
No, the cache is just plain data, no instructions, no source code. There is no reverse engineering of source code needed to read it (just reverse engineering of the data format). It is not compiled in the computer science meaning of compilation (that is translation of source code to some kind of machine language). If the interpretation would be like you suggest, no file format could be legally reverse engineered, although this is common practice (e.g. think about old .doc support). This suggests to me, this can't be covered by the reverse engineering part, but, as i said, i'm no lawyer ... :) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16324
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dirk Decibel wrote:While i'm no lawyer, technically none of the things mentioned in the paragraph is done by cache scraping:
"You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet" That's one part that covers the cache: it's information accessible through the system and part of GÇ£[software, system] or anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥.
The bajillion subclauses that characterise legalese. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 20:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Quote:Quote:While i'm no lawyer, technically none of the things mentioned in the paragraph is done by cache scraping:
"You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet" That's one part that covers the cache: it's information accessible through the system and part of GÇ£[software, system] or anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥. No, it isn't, imho. The sentence only refers to the reverse engineering or derivation of source code. Well, maybe one could argue that the cache reading source code gets derived by reverse engineering the data format AND implementing a program to read it, but then again i don't see how any other file formats could be legally reverse engineered and supported by other applications, which - as mentioned before - is common practice in the industry. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1894
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:02:00 -
[66] - Quote
Only one opinion matters wrt the EULA.
CCP's.
After all, there's a clause in there saying they can terminate service for whatever reason they want. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4057
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:28:00 -
[67] - Quote
EULA Licence C paragraph 2 wrote:You may not intercept for any purpose other than playing EVE in accordance with the EULA any information accessible through the System. You may not access the System or upload, download or use information accessible through the System, other than as permitted by the EULA.
CCP Stillman quoted an inappropriate paragraph. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:EULA Licence C paragraph 2 wrote:You may not intercept for any purpose other than playing EVE in accordance with the EULA any information accessible through the System. You may not access the System or upload, download or use information accessible through the System, other than as permitted by the EULA. CCP Stillman quoted an inappropriate paragraph. Haha okay, that explains it, thx :) |
Spillrag
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sable Blitzmann wrote:
But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce. In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional. If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption. That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.
As a computer science student, I would really love to see more dev blogs about the internal changes that happen to the eve client and servers and whatnot. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
574
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Seems to be working again. Was just able to use it to check prices of stuff. *removed inappropriate signature* - CCP Eterne |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16324
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:00:00 -
[71] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:No, it isn't, imho. The sentence only refers to the reverse engineering or derivation of source code. Nah. It refers to a lot more GÇö you just have to parse it properly.
You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ].
The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste.
The cache could be seen as GÇ£any information accessible through the SystemGÇ¥ or just caught by the catch-all GÇ£anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥, and you are not allowed to reverse-engineer it. Nor are you allowed to disassemble or decompile it. Nor are you allowed to attempt to reverse engineer or derive source-code from it. Whether or not they can be done (such as deriving source-code from the cache) tends to be besides the point.
Quote:then again i don't see how any other file formats could be legally reverse engineered and supported by other applications, which - as mentioned before - is common practice in the industry. In many cases, it wasn't allowed, based on similar boilerplate text, but the manufacturers didn't care because it was handy if more software could be tied to their product GÇö kind of like CCP's stance: GÇ£yeah, not allowed but go ahead because we won't careGÇ¥. In other cases, it was just licensed out. Iirc, as far as the legal system it usually depends on whether you're aiming for interoperability or creating a competing product, but that will vary with the country. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Rischwa Amatin
Zum blauen Bock GONE BERZERK
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rischwa Amatin wrote:No, it isn't, imho. The sentence only refers to the reverse engineering or derivation of source code. Nah. It refers to a lot more GÇö you just have to parse it properly. You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ]. The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste. They way you write it, it could make sense, but the text cited before had a ',' in the ", from all or any portion of the software", which makes your parsing invalid, imho, but i'm no native speaker.
Quote:Quote:then again i don't see how any other file formats could be legally reverse engineered and supported by other applications, which - as mentioned before - is common practice in the industry. In many cases, it wasn't allowed, based on similar boilerplate text, but the manufacturers didn't care because it was handy if more software could be tied to their product GÇö kind of like CCP's stance: GÇ£yeah, not allowed but go ahead because we won't careGÇ¥. In other cases, it was just licensed out. Iirc, as far as the legal system it usually depends on whether you're aiming for interoperability or creating a competing product, but that will vary with the country. Well i'm convinced that if it would have been illegal, A LOT of companies would enforce that, because denying competitors access to data was/is a main reason for a closed format in the first place. In the CAD world you afaik even had companies changing the format around with different releases, so the competitors, which reverse engineered the data formats, were no longer able to read the files.
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Caerfinon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 01:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Seems to be working again. Was just able to use it to check prices of stuff.
new version of EVEMON seems to be uploading again.... Cheers C. |
Myriad Blaze
65
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 07:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote:Quote:Quote:then again i don't see how any other file formats could be legally reverse engineered and supported by other applications, which - as mentioned before - is common practice in the industry. In many cases, it wasn't allowed, based on similar boilerplate text, but the manufacturers didn't care because it was handy if more software could be tied to their product GÇö kind of like CCP's stance: GÇ£yeah, not allowed but go ahead because we won't careGÇ¥. In other cases, it was just licensed out. Iirc, as far as the legal system it usually depends on whether you're aiming for interoperability or creating a competing product, but that will vary with the country. Well i'm convinced that if it would have been illegal, A LOT of companies would enforce that, because denying competitors access to data was/is a main reason for a closed format in the first place. In the CAD world you afaik even had companies changing the format around with different releases, so the competitors, which reverse engineered the data formats, were no longer able to read the files. You should consider that legal enforcement costs money. And that going to trial is a roll of the dice - one can never predict the outcome (that's one of the reasons why you should go for a settlement in many cases). And even if you win the case or end up settling the case for a lot more than the case is worth, you can lose (a lot of) money if the defendant does not have the financial resources to pay up. So unless damage may occur as a result of the behavior of the person(s) in question, why take legal action?
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dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
779
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 08:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ].
The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste.
Are the cache files CCP property and legally part of the eve software?, i understand the the EULA says you are not allowed to reverse the software.
If the cache files are not legally a part of the application, would it not be legal to give the cache files to a 3. party, who extract data from the cache files?
If you didn't sign the EULA would you then break any rules by extracting data from the cache files? I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
dexington wrote:Are the cache files CCP property and legally part of the eve software? My computer and everything on it are my own property thank you very much. CCP does not own or have rights to anything on it, and if they think they can tell me what to do with my own property then there is always the unsub button |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1898
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:dexington wrote:Are the cache files CCP property and legally part of the eve software? My computer and everything on it are my own property thank you very much. CCP does not own or have rights to anything on it, and if they think they can tell me what to do with my own property then there is always the unsub button
I think you'll find that you don't, due to the way that copyright (and other intellectual property) works, with licensing.
You don't buy software. You buy the right to use it, under very specific circumstances. Break those, and you no longer have the right to retain the copy. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Kal Arkhenty
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 20:22:00 -
[78] - Quote
Tippia wrote: You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ].
The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste.
The cache could be seen as GÇ£any information accessible through the SystemGÇ¥ or just caught by the catch-all GÇ£anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥, and you are not allowed to reverse-engineer it. Nor are you allowed to disassemble or decompile it. Nor are you allowed to attempt to reverse engineer or derive source-code from it. Whether or not they can be done (such as deriving source-code from the cache) tends to be besides the point.
The way the EULA is written makes it possible to make nonsensical, albeit EULA-valid, arguments:
{rant} When I play EvE I have to constantly decompile/decrypt information. A lot of this information is presented through a screen encoded in a format called "text", a series of symbols such as "letters" are used to form "words"; there are also other symbols such as "spaces" and "punctuation" that allow for complex arrangements of "words" into things like "sentences". Different encodings exist such as "English", "French" and "German", also known a "languages". The decryption method is usually referred to as "reading". Sometimes intermediate steps are required such as "translation" in which "words" and/or "sentences" can be ported from one "language" to another.
So is reading against the EULA? "No", you'll say, "unless you are being aided by a tool not provided by CCP". OK, so if I need a tool to read it, such as "glasses", is this then against the EULA? {/rant}
Lawyers are abusive. These EULAs are written so that they can argue anything they want and it will be valid. |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
421
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Posted - 2013.09.06 22:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kal Arkhenty wrote:Tippia wrote: You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ].
The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste.
The cache could be seen as GÇ£any information accessible through the SystemGÇ¥ or just caught by the catch-all GÇ£anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥, and you are not allowed to reverse-engineer it. Nor are you allowed to disassemble or decompile it. Nor are you allowed to attempt to reverse engineer or derive source-code from it. Whether or not they can be done (such as deriving source-code from the cache) tends to be besides the point.
The way the EULA is written makes it possible to make nonsensical, albeit EULA-valid, arguments: {rant} When I play EvE I have to constantly decompile/decrypt information. A lot of this information is presented through a screen encoded in a format called "text", a series of symbols such as "letters" are used to form "words"; there are also other symbols such as "spaces" and "punctuation" that allow for complex arrangements of "words" into things like "sentences". Different encodings exist such as "English", "French" and "German", also known a "languages". The decryption method is usually referred to as "reading". Sometimes intermediate steps are required such as "translation" in which "words" and/or "sentences" can be ported from one "language" to another. So is reading against the EULA? "No", you'll say, "unless you are being aided by a tool not provided by CCP". OK, so if I need a tool to read it, such as "glasses", is this then against the EULA? {/rant} Lawyers are abusive. These EULAs are written so that they can argue anything they want and it will be valid.
That would be the point with most EULA type documents. They are there to cover the issuing company's backside.
Lets say tomorrow you find a magic clause in the EULA that permits you to bot. "Ah-ha!", you exclaim, "My 500 bot mining fleet is legal now, the EULA says so!" I promise you that, very quickly, a new EULA will be set out that prohibits your activity.
Hell, if CCP were crazy and dumb enough to do it, they could say "Mining is now against EULA", leave the entire mining system in EVE, and just ban people who engaged in mining. EULA trumps anything the system allows you to do, and the EULA is under sole control of the issuing company, at least until you bring it before a judge. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
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GreenSeed
682
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 22:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:dexington wrote:Are the cache files CCP property and legally part of the eve software? My computer and everything on it are my own property thank you very much. CCP does not own or have rights to anything on it, and if they think they can tell me what to do with my own property then there is always the unsub button then unsub, legally CCP owns the memory region the game runs in, and by "own" i do mean own, in the absolute sense of the word. also "running" the software means making a licensed copy of part of the software on your ram, that license can be revoked at any time, if you run the software with no license, you are infringing their copyright and can get sued... it can even qualify as a misdemeanor if the copyright holder is a jerk and wants to make you miserable.
welcome to the future. |
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
157
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 23:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kal Arkhenty wrote:Tippia wrote: You may not [ reverse engineer | disassemble or decompile | attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from ] [ all or any portion of the Software | any information accessible through the System | anything incorporated therein ].
The first part enumerates three things you're not allowed to do, and the second part enumerates three parts you're not allowed to do any of it to. Mix and match to taste.
The cache could be seen as GÇ£any information accessible through the SystemGÇ¥ or just caught by the catch-all GÇ£anything incorporated thereinGÇ¥, and you are not allowed to reverse-engineer it. Nor are you allowed to disassemble or decompile it. Nor are you allowed to attempt to reverse engineer or derive source-code from it. Whether or not they can be done (such as deriving source-code from the cache) tends to be besides the point.
The way the EULA is written makes it possible to make nonsensical, albeit EULA-valid, arguments: {rant} When I play EvE I have to constantly decompile/decrypt information. A lot of this information is presented through a screen encoded in a format called "text", a series of symbols such as "letters" are used to form "words"; there are also other symbols such as "spaces" and "punctuation" that allow for complex arrangements of "words" into things like "sentences". Different encodings exist such as "English", "French" and "German", also known a "languages". The decryption method is usually referred to as "reading". Sometimes intermediate steps are required such as "translation" in which "words" and/or "sentences" can be ported from one "language" to another. So is reading against the EULA? "No", you'll say, "unless you are being aided by a tool not provided by CCP". OK, so if I need a tool to read it, such as "glasses", is this then against the EULA? {/rant} Lawyers are abusive. These EULAs are written so that they can argue anything they want and it will be valid.
But of course the majority of the the EULA is there to protect the companies intellectual property, wouldn't you agree? Reverse engineering or decompilation of the software is to keep people from finding ways to make the software do things it wasn't intended to do no? Or take it a step further, using parts of the source code to create something and saying its your work?
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Kal Arkhenty
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote: But of course the majority of the the EULA is there to protect the companies intellectual property, wouldn't you agree? Reverse engineering or decompilation of the software is to keep people from finding ways to make the software do things it wasn't intended to do no? Or take it a step further, using parts of the source code to create something and saying its your work?
I am not talking about the need or purpose of an EULA; I am commenting on the way in which they are redacted. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
661
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 00:37:00 -
[83] - Quote
Rischwa Amatin wrote: They way you write it, it could make sense, but the text cited before had a ',' in the ", from all or any portion of the software", which makes your parsing invalid, imho, but i'm no native speaker.
Would't the cache technically be part of the software? Can the software run without that file? What if you were to prevent the game from even re-creating it after it got cleared? |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
781
|
Posted - 2013.09.07 07:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Would't the cache technically be part of the software? Can the software run without that file? What if you were to prevent the game from even re-creating it after it got cleared?
I'm not sure if the would prove the files are part of the software, but don't know if it matters, you probably not allowed to reverse the software by proxy. If you are asking someone else to do something you agreed not to do, i think that technically is the same as doing it yourself.
I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Kaladr
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:25:00 -
[85] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sable Blitzmann wrote:
But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce. In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional. If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption. That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.
I'd like to come out and say:
Cache scraping is a volatile "hack" and its amazing its worked so flawlessly for so long. This last change was absolutely minor (though sanity checks made it stop working across the board as both reverence and libevecache, and in turn derived implementations, checked this).
I welcome a documented and saner method of sourcing data to third party market tools. I don't think anyone wants to travel back to the past and parse kill-mails anymore once the API came about. Creator of EVE-Central.com, the longest running EVE Market Aggregator |
Popsikle
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 06:25:00 -
[86] - Quote
Bubanni wrote::) if CCP made it possible to view markets across all of eve, from whereever you were... we wouldn't need sites like eve-central.com, maybe that's what they should look into, (view market from station, system, region, all of eve)
(not saying we should be able to buy items from anywhere in eve, just view them and their prices)
F'in Young kids these days.
You know what we did? After we walked up hill both ways we actually MANUALLY checked other reagons for all of our products and compiled our own lists of items to trade across regions. This whole eve-central thing is a lot like computer trading of stocks and really should be banned forever!!!!!! |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Forsak3n.
342
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 18:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Popsikle wrote:You know what we did? After we walked up hill both ways we actually MANUALLY checked other reagons for all of our products and compiled our own lists of items to trade across regions. This whole eve-central thing is a lot like computer trading of stocks and really should be banned forever!!!!!!
The mind of man is Holy.
Free Ripley Weaver! |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1920
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 19:02:00 -
[88] - Quote
Go away, Jehanne Butler.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
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