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Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.14 16:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Ithildin stuff then I discovered barrage L gave a bonus not a penalty and posted the figures for that. I think the big red heart at the end summed up my feelings over it
Cadiz	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:05:00 - [32] Null has absolutely no penalties whatsoever, besides the entire 8.3% less damage than antimatter bit. No tracking hits, no extra capacitor requirements per shot (it uses the same amount of cap as antimatter does), no screwball shield/velocity screwiness, and you get improved optimal and falloff. What's not to like? I am glad some other people are starting to acknowledge the absolute brilliance of Null ammo! It, like Barrage for autocannons, is not pre-nerfed to hell and back. It's just pure bloody awesome. It improves the functional range of blasters quite dramatically at a very slender cost to DPS. Now to see if Null will let my blaster-Taranis work a bit better in inty vs. inty fights...
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Sarmaul <...> Yes, that means a megathron with Null L outdamages a tempest with EMP at every range. edit: and also moves faster due to the mwd vs ab I am a bit interested how you figured this last one out. I know that the tightest spot on a Megathron is it's CPU. 800mm Repeating Artillery II uses 183 powergrid and 32 cpu less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II Megathron. The difference in fitting between a Megathron and a Tempest is that the Megathron has -1 Med and +1 low as well as +1 turret -2 launchers. Convievably, the Tempest should be able to offset the damage difference versus the Megathron with the medium powered slot for an electronic warfare module (that it should have CPU for given the intial 216 less CPU taken up on the Tempest compared to an equally fitted Megathron) Once you factor in that the Tempest has a lower signature radius and the capacity of fitting two NOS or maybe two launchers (or a combination), the Tempest will have it's factual damage increased (maybe not with 100 dps, but all the same) as well as suffer less severe hits and hits of lessened quality. This may not seem like much, but the difference is there. Adding in sweeter damage type, which can be estimated for increasing the comparable damage by 5% to even as much as 20% in the Tempest's favour (depending on hardeners) on any given target. I shouldn't think such a minor matter as slightly lower dps to be something to proclaim the Tempest beaten. In fact, I'd put my money on the Tempest. I'd even fly a Tempest myself, if I hadn't taken a solemn vow never to train Minmatar or Caldari skills further than was absolutely necessary (until I gain a Gallente or Amarr looking pirate faction ship, neither race will be necessary). Yes, I am the only one in MC who chooses ships because of looks as much as performance. P.S. I seem to have missed my original point. The Tempest will move faster because it won't struggle as much to fit an MWD where the Megathron will. P.P.S. The Null L ammo is listed to have "-100%" capacitor bonus in Jide's extract. Void L, for an energy expensive example, has "+25%". Is that -100% an elimination of capacitor use, or is it one more example of the odd truncating error in extract information? (which would mean capacitor need is reduced by only 1%, as seen on the active hardeners) OMG STFU taht would mean that the tempest is competitive or even better then the megathron at close range. id rather show u a pure DPS graph of neutrons vs 800s to get my point across without having to show u that i have an extra high slot free and that my setup is so easy to fit whereas ur one is impossible and i hope there are not many pilots like u out there that look at more then DPS graphs cos if there is im stuff and i wount get a large autocannon boost ARRRGGGGGG
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:09:00 - [34] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/01/2006 17:13:55 omg beaten by maths ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Golgrath	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:12:00 - [35] youre wrong, Barrage only gives 50% falloff bonus, not 100%
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:13:00 - [36] Originally by: Golgrath youre wrong, Barrage only gives 50% falloff bonus, not 100% hmm.. yah you're right ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Grimpak correct me if i'm wrong but you get more falloff with trajectory analysis. ATM I get a 20km falloff on 800mm with lvl4. base: 16k skill: 25% bonus: 16k x 0.25 = 4k total: 16k + 4k = 20k and it's a 50% optimal increase
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:26:00 - [38] Because nobody can fit t2 neutrons on a mega without a gazillion fitting mods: Ion Blaster II with Null L on a Megathron (maxed skills) 6.671x Damage Mod 4.86 rof 9.375km optimal 12.5km falloff DPS: (6.671 * 44 * 7) / 4.86 = 422dps Optimal + Falloff: 21.875km. DPS: 211 Optimal + Falloff * 2: 34.375. DPS: 0
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Grimpak correct me if i'm wrong but you get more falloff with trajectory analysis. ATM I get a 20km falloff on 800mm with lvl4. base: 16k skill: 25% bonus: 16k x 0.25 = 4k total: 16k + 4k = 20k and it's a 50% optimal increase as I said, pwned by maths ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.14 17:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Grimpak as I said, pwned by maths and you changed it as I was posting :)
Bazman	Posted - 2006.01.14 18:21:00 - [41] I've not had much chance to test the advanced blaster ammo much more than shooting a few shots at a corp mate, but for me, it kinda goes like this: Void S: Uber vs bigger targets, Useless vs frigs Void M: Battleship rapage, i went from like 460dps to 520dps on my Deimos Void L: Not worth the bother, you'll zap your cap on a mega in no time. Null S: No point, use antimatter Null M: Again, not much point unless your being scrambled by a cheeky 1 pointer interceptor Null L: Pure dead brilliant like. Eh! ----- Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.01.14 18:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Cadiz Null has absolutely no penalties whatsoever, besides the entire 8.3% less damage than antimatter bit. No tracking hits, no extra capacitor requirements per shot (it uses the same amount of cap as antimatter does), no screwball shield/velocity screwiness, and you get improved optimal and falloff. What's not to like? I am glad some other people are starting to acknowledge the absolute brilliance of Null ammo! It, like Barrage for autocannons, is not pre-nerfed to hell and back. It's just pure bloody awesome. It improves the functional range of blasters quite dramatically at a very slender cost to DPS. Now to see if Null will let my blaster-Taranis work a bit better in inty vs. inty fights... Barrage still has a longer range :) So assuming I have that, you're still unlikely to get me. Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.01.14 18:31:00 - [43] i have good use for void L... so if you think it is useless i could use donation of 100k I use no guns... i smack to death.
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.01.14 18:39:00 - [44] Originally by: Bazman Null S: No point, use antimatter Null M: Again, not much point unless your being scrambled by a cheeky 1 pointer interceptor If the Falloff Damage reduction I have seen in another thread is true, it might be that the extended optimal range of Null S and M outweighs the damage reduction produced by firing outside of optimal range, and with tracking into account, do more actual damage in practice than Antimatter. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.01.14 19:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Bazman Null M: Again, not much point unless your being scrambled by a cheeky 1 pointer interceptor Would be useful with: Deimos vs anything in 1vs1 Astarte vs anything in 1vs1 (easy to hit 600dps with null ammo, over 800 with void)
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.14 19:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Sarmaul DPS: (6.671 * 44 * 7) / 4.86 = 422dps Optimal + Falloff: 21.875km. DPS: 211 Optimal + Falloff * 2: 34.375. DPS: 0 Btw, as I've been messing around with in this thread, even though you have 50% chance to hit at optimal + falloff, this does not equate to 50% dps as you have done. You miss half your shots which halves your dps off the bat, but of the shots that hit, the average quality is lower compared to under perfect conditions. So far it seems that at optimal + falloff you appear to do roughly 40% of the dps you do under perfect hit conditions, but further tests are needed to really quantify the reduction.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.01.14 19:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Farjung Originally by: Sarmaul DPS: (6.671 * 44 * 7) / 4.86 = 422dps Optimal + Falloff: 21.875km. DPS: 211 Optimal + Falloff * 2: 34.375. DPS: 0 Btw, as I've been messing around with in this thread, even though you have 50% chance to hit at optimal + falloff, this does not equate to 50% dps as you have done. You miss half your shots which halves your dps off the bat, but of the shots that hit, the average quality is lower compared to under perfect conditions. So far it seems that at optimal + falloff you appear to do roughly 40% of the dps you do under perfect hit conditions, but further tests are needed to really quantify the reduction. lol I forget the word "approx" once and get picked up on it
Farjung	Posted - 2006.01.14 19:31:00 - [48] Originally by: Ithildin P.P.S. The Null L ammo is listed to have "-100%" capacitor bonus in Jide's extract. Void L, for an energy expensive example, has "+25%". Is that -100% an elimination of capacitor use, or is it one more example of the odd truncating error in extract information? (which would mean capacitor need is reduced by only 1%, as seen on the active hardeners) Antimatter charge also shows -100%, so Null uses same cap as AM, ie no cap reduction.
Garramon	Posted - 2006.01.15 00:50:00 - [49] I have been waiting for NULL ammo for my astarte/brutix. A lot of my shots come outside optimal range while I am approaching the target. With antimatter, I hit well up to about 10km. With Null....oooooh. ------------------------------------------------

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