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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
574
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:09:00 -
[61] - Quote
This idea is great ! Stop complaining. G££ <= Me |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
70
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 22:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tippia wrote:How exactly does this "move the game forward"? By introducing new tactics and proper operational manoeuvring and requiring something more clever than just dumping bubbles everywhere, thereby smartening up the game considerably for everyone involved.
Since tactics to catch these interceptors have already been developed (or more accurately have been there all along), not even the potential problem of making them difficult to kill exists. All around an excellent change of mechanics.
Tippia i have read many of your posts and I almost universally appreciate your opinions as well thought out even though i disagree with you almost 100% of the time.
What i really wanted to say though is great Avatar, a slight smug smile that makes me want to punch your avatar in the face.
I mean that in a good way ( not being sarcastic ).
Cheers!
Maldiro Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2626
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:11:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:How does bubble immunity help the interceptor? --- Hint: The interceptor class generally chases ships. If it warps to a gate chasing another ship, but ignores bubbles, that means it doesn't land near it's desired target, inhibiting its ability as chaser tackle. GǪbut the target is tackled, as intended, so it works out very nicely.
Not really... Inty chasing my Vexor. I warp to a celestial to run away, and land in a bubble 100 km's or more off the celestial. The inty lands at zero on the celestial, in a very different place. Yes, I'm in a bubble, but can easily get out of it before the inty can tackle me.
Tippia wrote:Quote:How exactly does this "move the game forward"? By introducing new tactics and proper operational manoeuvring and requiring something more clever than just dumping bubbles everywhere, thereby smartening up the game considerably for everyone involved. Since tactics to catch these interceptors have already been developed (or more accurately have been there all along), not even the potential problem of making them difficult to kill exists. All around an excellent change of mechanics.
Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!
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PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
277
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:15:00 -
[64] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!
It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2626
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:21:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tikitina wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: How does bubble immunity help the interceptor? --- Hint: The interceptor class generally chases ships. If it warps to a gate chasing another ship, but ignores bubbles, that means it doesn't land near it's desired target, inhibiting its ability as chaser tackle.
For one, It allows inties to avoid the delaying tactics of Dictors dropping bubbles to help their group disengage a pursuing group as one example
And it allows interceptors to ignore bubble-wrapped gates that carebears use to make their system safe. I will also really enjoy hornet gangs of interceptors that can't be held down by bubblers.
However, I still think this mechanic is designed to make nullsec travel safer, which is something I oppose.
Tikitina wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: How exactly does this "move the game forward"? --- Hint: If your answer can be summed up as, it enables safer movement throughout nullsec for interceptors, why are you using an interceptor to begin with when a covops performs that role?
It creates the possibility of new gameplay by breaking some existing, what many consider stagnate, gameplayPlus, the fact that intie pilots will have to account for their new found ability that can prevent them from catching someone who is caught by a bubble while they are not means that this new ability would be a dual edged sword, which is inline with what Eve is about.
I think you are stretching here. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2626
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 22:26:00 -
[66] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!
It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever.
I'll grant you that cloaky nullified t3's are the epidomy of "safe travel", right next to jump logistics. However, the former is expensive, not just in isk price, but in ship utility cost too. The later requires teamwork at the minimum, infrastructure at the maximum, and still has some serious drawbacks.
The drawback of nullified inties is nothing like that of nullified t3's. Apples and Oranges.
Really, as blasphemous as this is, you could do an MWD-Cloak inty and be just as safe as a nullified t3, and safer than a covops. lol at the fit, but I just don't see a good reason to implement nullified ceptors! |
Wandering Deathstriker
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 22:26:00 -
[67] - Quote
My biggest problem is that my fleet of miner's will now get instantly caught in a mining belt before they can warp out to a pos... and there's nothing i can really do about it.
edit: without having multiple scout alts on top of my hauler and booster. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16687
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 22:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Not really... Inty chasing my Vexor. I warp to a celestial to run away, and land in a bubble 100 km's or more off the celestial. The inty lands at zero on the celestial, in a very different place. Yes, I'm in a bubble, but can easily get out of it before the inty can tackle me. GǪeven when you consider the fact that he inty has been burning towards the bubble before you even got there? You're still tackled and you've at best bought yourself a couple of seconds. Oh, and if you're in a Vexor, why are you running away from a frigate?
Quote:Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". Yes it is. While you're stuck going in and out of and around bubbles, the intys just fly straight through to set up a catch in a different position. You have to develop new delaying tactics as well as new capturing tactics, and the traps you've set up to keep your space safe are no longer as effective (which makes nullsec travel more dangerous in and of itself GÇö even more so when it will now be full of encounters with tacklers).
Wandering Deathstriker wrote:My biggest problem is that my fleet of miner's will now get instantly caught in a mining belt before they can warp out to a pos... and there's nothing i can really do about it. Keep an eye on all your intel tools, maybe? They may be fast, but they're not going to teleport into your belts without you knowing itGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Billy Colorado
Agony Unleashed
26
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Posted - 2013.09.27 22:46:00 -
[69] - Quote
When I chase to a bubble, I want to land in that bubble with the thing I'm chasing... Didn't see this implication at first. |
James Amril-Kesh
Goonswarm Federation
5805
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:09:00 -
[70] - Quote
"But, but... travel through 0.0 will become too safe!"
Because it wasn't already. My Youtube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
191
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Posted - 2013.09.27 23:14:00 -
[71] - Quote
OP, nice try, but you can't get through the heads of the blob. They're too focused on gate-camping, which this doesn't impact at all. Interceptors have always been immune to gate camps via the absolute ease of gate-crashing.
Often run 6-12 man roams through hostile sov null over the last four years. You run into giant home defense blobs all the time. Currently, you can run away from those blobs using general fleet tactics that have been around forever. Dropping bubbles behind you to slow down your pursuers, bubbling on the jump in to slow down giant blobs.
Now any home defense blob worth it's salt is going to have 3-4 interceptors. Good luck taking a small gang through null, no more defensive bubbles, no more mad dashes away from the giant blob. Interceptors will go through your defensive bubbles without an issue, tackling your ships or forcing you to kill the inty... which causes aggression. Even if you make it to a safe, the gang chasing you then gets ahead of you and you're forced into loggoffski.
This is the single dumbest change they've ever brought into the game in regards to small gang FC's and a tremendous buff to home defense blobs.
The stated reason for this change was to make it so anchoring a giant spam of bubbles around gates doesn't make you 100% safe to PvE in null. So, rather than do the simple approach of making it so you can't ANCHOR a bubble within 40km of a gate, they go and **** up small gang dynamics by making interceptors nullified to bubbles.
Stupid, stupid change. And unfortunately for me, the absolute final straw for this game. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
278
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!
It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever. I'll grant you that cloaky nullified t3's are the epidomy of "safe travel", right next to jump logistics. However, the former is expensive, not just in isk price, but in ship utility cost too. The later requires teamwork at the minimum, infrastructure at the maximum, and still has some serious drawbacks. The drawback of nullified inties is nothing like that of nullified t3's. Apples and Oranges. Really, as blasphemous as this is, you could do an MWD-Cloak inty and be just as safe as a nullified t3, and safer than a covops. lol at the fit, but I just don't see a good reason to implement nullified ceptors!
Yes, a noobship cyno alt is the epitome of teamwork. Honestly, aside from cost, there's nothing your MWD-Cloaky inty does better than a cloaky nullified T3. And at least cloaky nullified t3's can sorta do something else for the money. A cloaked inty won't be able to tackle for ****.
XavierVE wrote: And unfortunately for me, the absolute final straw for this game. What will happen to your stuff, if you don't mind my asking? |
i-AA
Cream Pie Carpet Munchers
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Stfu .. Are you scared now *****???
Gtfo ***** gate camping like a ****** then..
**** off and gtfo |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
806
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:25:00 -
[74] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise then went on to talk about features coming out with Rubicon, EvE's winter expansion:
While many of the ideas were pretty nifty, this little gem came out:
Interceptor changes: bubble immunity planned. Interdiction nullified, basically. Dropping average HP a little bit, very small cargo bays.
I'm sorry, but Interdiction Nullified ships are generally a BAD thing (i.e. too safe). Furthermore, giving Nullified to fast aligning interceptors is over-the-line, unless the Nullifier mechanics are revised.
Reason 1:
Interceptors are generally sent ahead of fleet to "catch" targets. This includes purposely warping them into bubbles where enemy "traps are", with the intention of tackling targets before they can run. This has mixed results depending on the inty pilot skills, but by making inties nullified, you prevent using this tactic!!!
Reason 2: This is a dumbing down of the game. It allows inty pilots that stupidly warp gate-to-gate when hostiles are in system, rather than using bookmarks and celestials, to move about more safely. Nullsec travel already has covert ops ships, interdiction nullified ships, and MJD-cloak BSs to move around nullsec very safely. Interceptors themselves are currently very adept at navigating unhindered through nullsec, so why would we want to make them even safer?
Reason 3: The number one method to gank inties is to surprise the gate-to-gate traveler with a drag bubble. This is a great way to catch scouts for a gang, which is very accessible even to very young solo frigate pilots.
At the end of the day, serious gate campers will still use sensor boosted tacklers to catch inties before they warp, so this really won't really change your big gate camps. Instead, you are encouraging carebears to bubble wrap their systems gates, as a cheap inty will get them through the gate if they desire.
making travel safer, especially for the "I don't know how to avoid drag bubbles" crowd.
helping inties infringe on the covops role, by making it easier for inties to navigate hostile groups.
Potential change to the Interdiciton Nullifier System that could balance out interdiction nullified inties: A long time ago, Interdiction Nullified subsystems were "accidentallied" by CCP, such that a nullified cruiser could warp out of a bubble, but if warped to a celestial with a bubble on it, they'd still be affected by the bubbles pull.
P.S. Since most people seem to misunderstand my point: This isn't about "wah my bubble camps can be bypassed". This is about WHY ARE WE MAKING NULLSEC TRAVEL SAFER AND EASIER. We already have covops and nullified t3's for the risk adverse carebears. Why add inties to that list?
this will bring much more players to nullsec, and thats a good thing... nullsec is empty, thats why more poeple need to go there, the only one risk averse is you like it seems, you are scared to have more people out there
... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2972
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
I didn't read the thread so not sure if this has been mentioned.
CCP can start over-complicating mechanics like they have in the past and in the end have to go back and fix it all over. Or they can use the simple solution.
The simple solution is to get rid of bubbles.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
SpoonRECKLESS
LOGI R Us
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
As someone said (I forgot who) adapt or die, Or become a forum whiner for life. Blue
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2628
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:40:00 -
[77] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote: this will bring much more players to nullsec, and thats a good thing... nullsec is empty, thats why more poeple need to go there, the only one risk averse is you like it seems, you are scared to have more people out there
Your assumptions about me are blatantly wrong, as I am not some risk adverse, bubble humping wannabe PvP'er.
Nullsec is empty, and I would LOVE to see more players out and about in the baron wastelands that exist around the (mythical) blue donut. If you think making interceptors able to travel about unmolested is going to get more people into nullsec, you come across as very oblivious to the state of things.
The changes to scanning, hacking, and archaeology sites brought a lot of players to nuulsec. The new exploration ships might get more solo explorers out there. The new deployable structures will have quite a bit of utility for guerrilla fighters too. But if you really want to "populate" nullsec, we need to address Sov mechanics. Ideally with a use it or easily lose it mentality, which is much easier said than implemented. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2628
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:41:00 -
[78] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I didn't read the thread so not sure if this has been mentioned. CCP can start over-complicating mechanics like they have in the past and in the end have to go back and fix it all over. Or they can use the simple solution. The simple solution is to get rid of bubbles. Mr Epeen
Oh please god NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bubbles are one of best tactical tools in the game, and removing them is asinine! |
Athelas Loraiel
StarFleet Enterprises Fatal Ascension
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 23:56:00 -
[79] - Quote
good idea to have intys resistant to bubbly, maybe add some warp pause only.
after all, they can move out of it rather fast so it wont change much.
as to the drag bubbles, I'd get rid of them too, we need more brawling, less "mechanics usage" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1014
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
You're all being silly. Of all the crazy things being thrown out about Rubicon, this is really the least worrisome.
Most of the interceptors were more than fast enough to blow past a gatecamp in the first place, so it doesn't make anything much safer than it already was. It does make chasing a little easier, though. All in all, a good change, at least as long as we make sure they can't fit Cynos anymore, because that would suck. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
877
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:36:00 -
[81] - Quote
The risk averse carebears are the gate campers, not the travelers.
The part where you called (some of) them "pro" was ******* priceless.
4/10 for getting the first guy to respond 11 times as many likes as you. Thats hard work. Eve is Real |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4639
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:The risk averse carebears are the gate campers, not the travelers.
The part where you called (some of) them "pro" was ******* priceless. Heh,... yeah There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4108
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Wandering Deathstriker wrote:My biggest problem is that my fleet of miner's will now get instantly caught in a mining belt before they can warp out to a pos... and there's nothing i can really do about it. Keep an eye on all your intel tools, maybe? They may be fast, but they're not going to teleport into your belts without you knowing itGǪ
To be fair, now the mining bot will have to cease mining immediately a non-blue enters local. You used to have a guaranteed 30 seconds of leeway, now you'll have about 10 seconds between the capsuleer appearing in local and their interceptor arriving on-grid.
This will make life very interesting, especially since the built-in interdiction nullifier means there is a much higher chance that a hisec care bear can fly out to your mining system unimpeded, take a couple of pot shots, then return home to hisec before their play time for the evening is over.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Felicity Love
Whore and Peace
861
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 02:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
... null bear tears, best tears.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Whisperen
Handsome Millionaire Playboys RISE of LEGION
30
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 06:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
Screw the ceptors whats are they doing to the Lics! This might all be a lot of tears (justified ) about nothing. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
301
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 06:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:The risk averse carebears are the gate campers, not the travelers.
The part where you called (some of) them "pro" was ******* priceless. Heh,... yeah
True but to an interceptor?!?
Let's get serious. Of all classes of ships that could utilize this style of protection... If you can't get past a gate camp, bubble or otherwise, with an interceptor - either go back to highsec or /salute to a camp that *WAS* awake and paying close attention. Either they did a very good job or you flat out suck at flying that ship.
With the warp speed changes, they already will get a big boost to "intercepting" targets - but "prey" role protection?!?! T3's give up one hell of a lot of potency to fit that sub-system and I see zip-spank "costs" for these tiny speed-demons to now get it... |
Tao Dolcino
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
115
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 07:38:00 -
[87] - Quote
All what can make gatecamping at bottlenecks less effective is a good move. Bottlenecks are what's killing the dynamism of the game. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3445
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 09:57:00 -
[88] - Quote
While I don't know the OP personally, I don't want to seem insulting here. But as one player to another, I have to say: learn to hunt for your food, OK?
Where there are many who claim that people who can mine rocks all day have something wrong with them, and their playstyle is some kind of pox on the game, the same can be said about people who are equally semi-AFK (or on Ritalin) and watching a gate all day just to kill everything that comes through it.
And I know this playstyle, for the rage I have seen from people who lamely orbited the gate and still didn't get the kill is comparable to the rage of a miner getting bumped out of the belt or ganked.
The tears flow all the same. Of course the gate campers have a higher opinion of themselves, based on some notion that PVP is some high-exalted and holy playstyle, but lacking the memo that shipraep on a gate, sometimes waiting an hour for a target, is not impressing on the world any model of greatness (or intelligence for this matter).
We need MORE bubble-resistant ships. The Great Wall of Carebear (bears on both sides, BTW) is obvious, and something is being done about it.
We are also forgetting that on the agressor or pursuit angle of things, a nullifying inty is going to be very dangerous in a pursuit. This is is a ship that can escape it's own bubble camp, overfly a running ship, land at the gate, jump ahead of it, then tackle it on the other side. This is going to be nasty. |
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 10:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
I love the idea. Interceptors should be able to intercept ... I guess you're just upset your gate camps won't work anymore. You know, you can always use regular points to scramble them right ...
This whole complaint is just laziness. Seriously, Interceptors used to just burn out of the bubble and jump away anyway. Are you worried you'll now have to put some effort in catching an interceptor? |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
178
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 10:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
I'm not keen on this suggestion for two primary reasons. Firstly it runs (as does the fitting of CovOps cloaks to everything) counter to the drive to force a combattant to commit - a group of 'ceptors could (with this ability) fight in a bubble in certain knowledge that, should things go south they can disengage immediately. It isn't as if burning out of a bubble took very long in the first place, although it also isn't the case that the Interceptor has much margin for error given that their most direct escape route offers the chance of a very low transversal volley. Secondly it significantly reduces the effectiveness of Interdictors which were at one point, with their relatively high speeds, sphere launchers and relatively heavy frigate weight armament, one of the better counters to fast moving interceptors. Of course the Interdictor tends to be relagated to drive-by bubbling these days but I have been involved in some fantastic small Interceptor vs Interdictor chases, the Inties trying to hold point while also trying to avoid both the firepower of the 'dictors and having enough of them in range to make a bubble worth deploying. With the high speed of Interceptors Interdiction Nullification means that the only real counters are either instalock volley damage (which I think everyone can agree is no fun) or other Interceptors - and when the sensible counter to a ship or class is another of that ship or class problems and imbalance develops. |
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