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Baun
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:21:00 -
[91]
O and on a more relevant note, there looks to be about 25billion in the coffers now.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Gioto
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Posted - 2006.01.31 05:41:00 -
[92]
dam, i wanted to start a bank just like you, but you guys have how to do it, i only thought about making one. anyways. good luck with that
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Semkhet
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Posted - 2006.01.31 12:46:00 -
[93]
Good job, Tornsoul, it is a well tought idea.
Now, far from disregarding the work involved in launching, maintaining and expanding such a venture, let me focus exclusively on the profit aspect who could benefit to shareholders.
I will not address the subject of the intrinsic values of the shares indepht. 1000 shares at 50 mil/unit are a drop in the vast universe of EVE. If you are succesfull, only people in need of immediate isk may sell their shares, therefore it will always be a marginal circumstancial and limited selling move that will not influence share's apparaisal. If you aren't succesfull, share's appraisal will hit the ground and investors will have to wait either until your business finally begins to generate a return, or until you close the bank and refund them. Because no one knows for sure if you will be succesfull or not, there's no sense to loose time debating on this aspect.
On the other hand, I personally believe that the return of the shares isn't interesting from an investor perspective. At least if you are not megarich. Why ?
Let's look at numbers, taking a shareholders benefit margin of 15% (half of the 30% you stated in your opening examples), and assuming for simplifying calculations that all your 50B isk were raised through 1000 shares at 50 mil/unit:
A=AMOL in billion isk B=Monthly return by single share in mil isk C=Effective monthly interest in % D=Annual return by single share in mil isk E=Annual interest by single share in %
(A) (B) (C) (D) (E) 10 1.5 3 18 36 20 3 6 35 72 30 4.5 9 54 108 40 6 12 72 144 50 7.5 15 90 180
If your business works, it means that an initial investment of 50 mil isk may generate a benefit anywhere in between 36 to 180 mil after 12 months (I specifically did not compute reinvesting monthly benefits into shares given that the number of shares is very reduced).
And here we get a problem. For players with little isk, throwing 50 mil isk into a black box where they don't know when they will ever see their initial isk back again in exchange for a monthly benefit between 1.5 and 7.5 mil doesen't insure a decent living.
On the other hand, for medium to rich people used to conduct business, even the best hypothese (monthly 15%) is barely interesting. Anyone with a bit of flair can easely get a monthly return of 150% be it trading, refining,producing, npc'ing, etc...
Are left the few megarich players who own way more isk than all what they need to experience every facet of EVE. And I believe it's mainly those who precisely don't really care about what may happen to the bil isk they throw your way, who may find interesting to get some assets parked into your wallet and may be satisfied by such performance in return terms given that this investment will require no or little attention.
Anyhow, if this project may help players to reach their goals faster by allowing them to get the right amount of funds at the right moment, then it will be a welcomed and positive service to the community.
Good luck
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:03:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Semkhet
Anyhow, if this project may help players to reach their goals faster by allowing them to get the right amount of funds at the right moment, then it will be a welcomed and positive service to the community.
To think it took 4 pages before anyone even considered this aspect... Says a fair bit about the average EVE player... - or am I just getting a bit too cynical on my 'old' days
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I think your numbers is a welcome additon (to those already posted) for potential investers.
While your arguments about who would find this level of payback (ROI) interesting or not, are valid enough, you are however neglecting one point.
You will be getting interest *while* doing whatever else you would be doing anyhow.
So you really have to look at it as *additional* income, and not .the. income.
I'll again have to draw a parellel to ISS (really the only other one in existence) - Their payback is quite a bit lower than the (best) estimates for the BMBE, yet their share values have both doubled and trippled (going by the actions in the sell forum anyhow)
So by that arguement I think the (potential) 15% return per month as actually extremely attractive.
And to repeat : It should be looked upon as *additional* income - Supplementing whatever else you are doing.
BMBE shares arent sucking away any of your playtime to generate ISK.
In the end, It's ofc a matter of point of view.
BIG Lottery
[u |
Semkhet
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:43:00 -
[95]
From the perspective of an additional income who doesen't take your playtime away, you are perfectly correct. It may even interest those who have reached the expansion limit of their specific activity in a given location, and don't have time (or the will) to establish further ventures.
I've spent a decade myself in the RL banking world, and am well aware of all the advantages & pitfalls of such activity, both from the perspectives of the creditor and the debtor
Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin.
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Jarek Naumen
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:49:00 -
[96]
I'm getting more and more impressed by the possibilities that Eve offers in each day that passes. This is definitely a ground-breaking undertaking and i hope it will have great succes. Even if it fails i'll gladly risk my ISK to help such a business get started ( and hopefully help myself as well ..we'll see).
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Baun
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Posted - 2006.01.31 14:59:00 -
[97]
Looks like shares were given out yesterday .... so people should have them :O
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Distrans
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Posted - 2006.01.31 15:23:00 -
[98]
Biig Bank: Beyond numbers and payouts (it will be a success) many parties are going to benefit from this reviving the whole galaxy. Loot train is coming your town...respect for working it out.
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Distrans
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Posted - 2006.01.31 15:26:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Semkhet
Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin.
So propability and bad luck don't apply to your reality? Quite an arrogant statement...
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Serendipity007
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Posted - 2006.01.31 16:07:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Serendipity007 on 31/01/2006 16:17:27 Edit: I answered my own question. >_< ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series |
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Semkhet
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Posted - 2006.01.31 16:32:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Distrans
Originally by: Semkhet
Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin.
So propability and bad luck don't apply to your reality? Quite an arrogant statement...
Sorry if you view my opinion as arrogant, but it is founded on handling directly thousands of credit accounts in RL. Complete bad luck from A to Z is uncommon. The overwhelming majority of failures are statistically related either with bad planning, or unrealistic projections who did not integrate all the factors who may screw up your business. It's scientific m8.
One example: you decide to invest and produce a very particular item based on an exclusivity contract of a single buyer because there are almost no other destinations for your product, but you may get a big benefit. Works well until your buyer changes mind. Bad luck ? No, you put yourself since the beginning in a scheme were you don't have a plan B... If in the inverse you produce something with little margin but the nature of the item doesen't limit you to specific buyers, then no matter how the market reacts, you may always find somebody who will need your production.
Another one: your assets are located in an area where there was no flooding during the last 30 years, so you don't spend money on the related insurance since decades. Then one day comes the worst rain you ever imagined, and your assets are gone. Bad luck ? No, you simply saved very little money in the wrong area and took an unecessary risk. You gambled, and lost.
Etc...
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Rthor
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Posted - 2006.01.31 16:39:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Semkhet You gambled, and lost.
Etc...
Your bank lost...money.
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Semkhet
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Posted - 2006.01.31 18:13:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Rthor Edited by: Rthor on 31/01/2006 17:38:02
Originally by: Semkhet You gambled, and lost.
Etc...
It is your bank that lost...money.
There is no such thing as scientific certainty. In your examples you claim to know what went wrong but if this were known or knowable in advance then the project would never have been undertaken and hence it would not have failed and hence you would not have had your examples.
There is quite a lot of arrogance in this thread actually which I find amazing considering that this post seeks investors. I hope that this works, though I see problems in the business plan but it is possible that the business plan will change as these problems are apparent and everything will work out. Respect to Tornsoul for trying something ambitious.
I dont personally think that it is such a good deal for shareholders actually because there are better ways of making money out there than giving somebody cash and waiting for some dividens while forgetting that you dont have your principal any more and it looks like you cannot withdraw it in reality. Because if the investors were able to withdraw the money then there would be no bank.
It would have been better if BIG somehow demonstrated that they invested their own money in this so that in case of some investors bailing it could be stabilized by BIG cash infusion to match it. Otherwise it is basically BIG playing with other people's money.
Yes of course BIG is putting in the work but they are also getting 50 percent of profits so they are paid for their work maybe even better than they could ever hope for or should. Basically if you are a shareholder and the monthly dividend is too small it is partially too small because BIG takes a big cut of profits.
Also shareholders have nothing to say in how the business is run. Why would people give money to somebody and have nothing to say about how it is used is beyond me. In this particular case you can invest in a "bank" which can become a "pawn shop" which can then be converted to "recycling plant" and you will be scratching your head what exactly this venture is but will not be able to object to any change in business direction.
Whoever mentioned "scientific certainty" ? Not me. I spoke about statistics. The fact is that most projects who meet a negative epilogue contained flaws who were not identified in due time. Genuine screw-ups where the damaged entity had absolutely no possibility to see a catastrophical situation develop beforehand despite having taken all humanely possible precautions do exist, and I have personally also whitnessed them. But they are a very tiny minority. However, if you prefer to focus on the exceptions, it's your right.
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Rthor
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Posted - 2006.01.31 18:20:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Semkhet It's scientific m8.
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2006.01.31 18:25:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Rthor
...there are better ways of making money out there than giving somebody cash and waiting for some dividens while forgetting that you dont have your principal any more...
If someone has invested so much ISK that their daily operations (and ISK making) are hindered - Then they have indeed invested too much (IMO).
I'll grant you that much.
But regardless their level of investment - If that does not influence their daily operations, then they have simply required themself an additional source of income, which costs them no time or effort.
Thats the sound way to invest.
BIG Lottery
[u |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.02.01 01:10:00 -
[106]
Urm
.04 isk Dividend ......
Please tell me it was a test
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Cerwyn Taraman
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Posted - 2006.02.01 01:17:00 -
[107]
Dumb question as i'm new at this, is there an actual physical "share" that we somehow receive in-game via eve-mail or some such or is it just an entry in your database?
Thanks, CT
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2006.02.01 01:21:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Zooish Urm
.04 isk Dividend ......
Please tell me it was a test
Ya it was to tell you what % of the stock you owned.
So you apparently own 40 shares :O ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Callie Nefarious
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Posted - 2006.02.01 08:13:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Dumb question as i'm new at this, is there an actual physical "share" that we somehow receive in-game via eve-mail or some such or is it just an entry in your database?
Thanks, CT
It will show in your wallet under shares
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Galtan
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Posted - 2006.02.01 22:01:00 -
[110]
I just wanted to check you had received the isk sent on the 30/1. Have read all the posts again and I am not sure what confirmation to expect
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Baun
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Posted - 2006.02.01 23:11:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Galtan I just wanted to check you had received the isk sent on the 30/1. Have read all the posts again and I am not sure what confirmation to expect
The confirmation will arrive in the form of your shares, check your wallet.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2006.02.02 20:04:00 -
[112]
Seems a couple of investors have had a change of hearth.
And have bought even .more. shares
BIG Lottery
[u |
Dunpeal Hunter
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Posted - 2006.02.03 13:54:00 -
[113]
how many shares can each character or corporation buy?
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Ray McCormack
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Posted - 2006.02.03 14:36:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Dunpeal Hunter how many shares can each character or corporation buy?
As long as there are shares available, you can buy as many of them as you want. I think there are just a little over 400 of the initial 1000 left.
| The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 398860 | |
Space Warp
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Posted - 2006.02.04 00:21:00 -
[115]
About how long does it take to actually recieve the share? I've bought 2 a couple days ago and have yet to have any shares transfered into my wallet.
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APEXrevived
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Posted - 2006.02.04 01:17:00 -
[116]
I'm a new player, but I wanted to make a suggestion that may be helpful. I read through the first 3 pages of the posts but stopped, so forgive me if this has already been covered.
I would suggest designating Drop-Off points for the collateral that you collect. This would eliminate some of the overhead in sub-contracting, large hauling distances, losses do to pirates, etc. You could more easily ensure protection of your assets as well. Obviously there would need to be neutral areas in diverse regions to make it a client-friendly endeavor.
I would also like to present you with a scenario that could support my idea for you -- I'm a pirate corp that needs money desperately. I decide to capitalize on your business venture. I take out loans which I never intend to pay, and make sure the collateral is left in unsafe areas where I can watch. When you come to retrieve the collateral, I simply pop your hauler and take the collateral back.
One last point -- 25% interest rate seems a bit low considering the overhead for this. Also, someone posted the best-case scenario for dividend returns for investors. In that best case scenario with your current interest rate, it would take over 6 months for the dividends to pay back the initial investment. This seems a bit excessive, and if I was a veteran player rolling around in ISK I could think of better things to do with it. Perhaps a higher interest rate or plans for investing the ISK in more than just loans to ensure bigger payback ?
All that intended for your benefit. I wish you the best in your endeavor!!! I would love to see you push the limits of this game and be very successful!
I thought since this game is called Eve that I'd play a female character. Is that a good enough excuse for a guy? |
NeverL
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Posted - 2006.02.04 02:15:00 -
[117]
it will be quite impossible to cover something 24/7 in empire space. but if the stuff is in 0.5 or higher its possible to get stuff without any risk.
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Angelina Starchild
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Posted - 2006.02.04 14:32:00 -
[118]
Originally by: APEXrevived
One last point -- 25% interest rate seems a bit low considering the overhead for this. Also, someone posted the best-case scenario for dividend returns for investors. In that best case scenario with your current interest rate, it would take over 6 months for the dividends to pay back the initial investment. This seems a bit excessive, and if I was a veteran player rolling around in ISK I could think of better things to do with it. Perhaps a higher interest rate or plans for investing the ISK in more than just loans to ensure bigger payback ?
Keep in mind that you are probably able to sell your shares when you feel like having your isk back, so you don't have to wait these 6 month before you actually start to make a real profit out of this.
See it this way. After 6 month and you have gotten the same amount you invested back in dividend payouts, and then you sell your share for atleast the same amount you bought it. Now that would end up 200% of your initial investment.
But yes, unless you have a lot of isk that you can't make use of yourself, you shouldn't invest. Same goes for all types of investments. Why would you invest in something if you can make more money with these money on your own? ___________________________________ Ample Shipyards is recruiting |
Ray McCormack
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Posted - 2006.02.04 16:14:00 -
[119]
A lot of people seem to think we're just starting one BIG hauling operation. It seems popular opinion is the BMBE will just be used as an asset liquidiser. Why is this so? The central idea behind the BMBE is that people will repay their loans to get their assets back. Sure, this may not always happen, but we won't be loosing out because of it.
There's also the case of someone escrowing us an enormous amount of collateral in a very unsafe location. I heard pirates and enemies of BIG mentioned. The one simple fact remains is that we still need to accept this escrow and agree to all the terms associated with that. So indeed, if someone tried to escrow us 20 billion ISKs worth of ore in an extremely unsuitable location we would have to think twice about it.
That's not saying we wouldn't do it, there's ways and means around every obstacle, but the chances of it happening are slim. Would you stand to loose 5 billion in fees just to 'get at' an enemy?
The last few posts have mentioned restricting locations of possible escrow for collateral. This in itself defeats the aims of the BMBE. Everywhere - Everything. Fetching expensive items from the middle of hostile territory is achievable in so many ways. Negotiation, courier missions (this in-game tool may yet be useful), remote sell orders or escorted hauling operations.
This one reason is why the BMBE has more chance of success than failure. Instant access to capital, anywhere.
| The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 261087 | |
NATASHA MAR
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Posted - 2006.02.04 17:40:00 -
[120]
ok i have checked in wallet and ive not got a share i sent in my 50 mil as requested even sent in back up evemail to TS but dont have a a share b any kinda confirmation that i have purchased a share, seeing posts supposidly i should see that i have a share in wallet but as yet i dont this is 3 - 4 days on from sending in cash . how long should it take for the share to be sent through to me if this venture is going forwards?
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