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Trarah
Posted - 2006.01.29 14:47:00 -
[61 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 18:49:30 (*3) Defaulted loans will take some time to be realized. That is, items need to be hauled/recycled/sold - and this takes time. Profit from defaulted loans will be paid out as dividend in the month they are realized - As opposed to the month where the loans default. is this saying what i think it is. if for example some1 stops paying there loan on week 2, you will not pay out on this untill as you put it they are realized. So if there items are in the middle of no where, and you cant be arsed to get it, then the AMOL is now under value, and the shareholders will get less. please tell me i have got this wrong :/
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 16:18:00 -
[62 ]
@Randay (post #53) Check my answer in post 27 regarding potential customers. About fluctuating mineral prices and the impact on the value of collatoral for existing loans: Mineral prices in general change pretty slow - and we have a built in 'buffer' of 25%. Anyone having a loan running for as long as it would take for mineral prices across the board to change by more than 25%, would be paying a ton of interest. So while they might default the loan in the end, the BMBE would still come out with a profit.@Krumpit (post #54) Are you worried it might be too popular as a quick recycling service? That is indeed a concern. However - 1: We have the advantage of 'dealing in bulk'. Meaning, we wont have to make 60j just to pick up 10K trit. 2: As already mentioned, if the volume of defaulted loans turns out to be really huge, this might actually be an 'advantage' as we would then be able to 'expand' the BMBE with an online shop for items as well. Selling items directly, should yield more profit (for shareholders) than simply recycling the items to minerals (think named modules and the like). The online shop will however only happen *if* the volume is large enough to make it worth the 'development cost' (my time). You concern about mineral prices - See above@Silvero (post #58) Perhaps you should allow smaller loans* without "proper" creditworthiness if the loantaker have a well known creditor or 2 that says aye. For starters we will keep it simple. Once the BMBE has 'stabilized', we will ofc start looking at ways to expand the business. But for now, we simply need to know what we are dealing with first before considering any of all those posibilitites. Nobody knows yet if the BMBE will bomb completly and shut down after a couple of months - or turn into a 1000B a month monster. I suspect however, that it will be somewhere in between those two extremes :)BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 16:19:00 -
[63 ]
@ Serenity Steele (post # 59) - What is the minimum loan amount that BIG intend to handle? - Will loans be paid out against items that don't refine to minerals (eg. Capital Ships), if yes, then at mineral build cost of the capital components? - What mechanism will be used for re-selling shares on the market (Trusted Broker). Will BIG take a fee from Brokering share sales to 3rd parties? - Will dividends be issued using the in-game share mechanism, or manual transfer? - When will the first loans be offered? - Managing the wallet on weekly interest rates is going to be a challenge. Seeing the web site would greatly improve my confidence as investor. When can we see it? 1: For now there will be no minimum. Should a lot of small loans turn out to increase the administrative burden unecessary, this is easy to change. 2: For now: No. Reason beeing I simply havent had the time to implement a recursive value calculation for items that in several steps break down into minerals. It's on top of my TODO list however. 3: We will leave that up to the investors, how they want to go about it.BIG will ofc offer to serve as a trusted 3rd party. For now theres no plans to take a fee for this service. Mainly because we dont expect it to occur frequently just yet, so I think we can 'afford' to do a 'freebie' on that one for now. 4: Ingame mechanics will be used. 5: The BMBE will open for business next weekend. 6: You can see it, once the BMBE is open for business :). The admin side of things will however be hidden to clients, and will only be available to BMBE staff. The client side of things should however give an impression regardless. Clients will be able to have multiple active loans, with each their pay-date, pay-rate, and even different BMBE staff members handling those loans. All this info will be readilly available to the clients.@Trarah (post #61) We cant pay out ISK we havent got yet. Simple as that. The effect on shareholder dividend will however just be a 'delay' (unless you are a very short term invester), as the payout simply gets shifted to a later month. We have listed it in the description excactly to allow investors to make up their mind if they like that or not (and thus if they want to invest or not).BIG Lottery [u
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 20:45:00 -
[64 ]
looks like 300 shares have now been sold (15bil isk raised). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 20:54:00 -
[65 ]
O and one question: BMBE will not be accepting collateral that is in outposts or COnquerable stations, but will be accepting collateral housed in 0.0 NPC stations, correct? The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:06:00 -
[66 ]
Outposts no (as they are not in the the data from t20 - and keeps popping up anyhow) Std. conqurable stations : Yes. Some of those BMBE staff might not be able to dock at - But thats really no different than some regular stations in enemy territory (we dont expect carte blanche to go fetch the stuff) So those will have to be dealt with via subcontractors etc.BIG Lottery [u
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:08:00 -
[67 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Outposts no (as they are not in the the data from t20 - and keeps popping up anyhow) Std. conqurable stations : Yes. Some of those BMBE staff might not be able to dock at - But thats really no different than some regular stations in enemy territory (we dont expect carte blanche to go fetch the stuff) So those will have to be dealt with via subcontractors etc. Sounds somewhat dicey to me, subcontractors can always get stuff from NPC stations easily, but you really have limited options with conquerable stations. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:11:00 -
[68 ]
Indeed. Makes it interesting Needs some wealing and dealing to get done - Which is part of the game I love BIG Lottery [u
Alkad Mzu
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:18:00 -
[69 ]
Excellent initiative, excellent concept. And if anyone can make it work, it's BIG. Best of luck TS =) -- Will sing for funny sig
Verite Rendition
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:41:00 -
[70 ]
How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. ---- TribalWar Inc. Director of R&D
Verite Rendition
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:41:00 -
[71 ]
How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours EVE Online | EVE Insider | Forums
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:48:00 -
[72 ]
Originally by: Verite Rendition How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. Asked and answered, read the thread :O The Enemy's Gate is Down
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:04:00 -
[73 ]
Originally by: Verite Rendition How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. Shares should start going out tomorrow, when the admin guy is in town for the week. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 186217 |
Archa
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:14:00 -
[74 ]
Edited by: Archa on 29/01/2006 23:17:15 interesting idea and i'll buy 10 shares. Though i have a few concearns: For instance: 1. colleteral in 0 sec space. You say you can use contractors for this. But see, I personally have about 400 million isk valued ore in the delve region. however this is in a station without a refinery. Will i get my 300 million loan? 2. The entire program is a wild succes. within 2 months you are loaning out 50 billion continiously. and you even have to reject people who want to borrow money because there is no money left. Now you say that you can increase your money pool by generating new shares. What will these shares be valued at? will these shares be valued at 50 million? or will these shares be valued at 100 million a share? See, when I buy a share, i don't just want the payout on my share. I want the share itself to increase in value because other people are interested in these shares. There are multiple ways to make these shares continuesly interesting. That is for instance. When you are continuesly loaning 50 billion isk and you just can't keep up wiht the loans. You can increase the interest to 6% or 7.5%. So your investors will get more money. Because it is they who took the risk so why shouldn't they be rewarded for it. 2ndly. if you sell the shares for double the price, this will also be good for the firsttime investors. There are 1000 shares @ 50 mil = 50 billion. so that 5% of 50 bil will be divided by 1000 shares 2.5 bil payout 2.5 mil per share now you create 1000 new shares @ 75 million a piece. this could potentionally create 5% of 125 divied by 2000 shares. 6.25 bil payout = 6.25 mil per share. What i'm trying to say is, if you say you have the right to create new shares. I for one want to know that you don't make new shares at the first share price. but that you will be making shares at the current stock value. if people want to buy new shares at 100 million instead of 50 million then you sell them for 100 million and not 50. Now then your shares will be very interesting if you ask me.
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:42:00 -
[75 ]
Originally by: Archa 1. colleteral in 0 sec space. You say you can use contractors for this. But see, I personally have about 400 million isk valued ore in the delve region. however this is in a station without a refinery. Will i get my 300 million loan? Sure. Everywhere - Everything. Originally by: Archa 2. What will these shares be valued at? will these shares be valued at 50 million? or will these shares be valued at 100 million a share? Shares sold in Phases 2 and onward will be sold at 'market value' (i.e. any trading going on will be monitored), but not less than the initial 50M per share (should that somehow occur). Point 5 in the third initial post by TS then reflects on revised dividends in the case of further IPOs. We won't force a value on the shares, that's up to the shareholders to do. I think this pretty much assauges any doubts you had. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 262751 |
Haniblecter Teg
Posted - 2006.01.30 00:42:00 -
[76 ]
Only 75% of hte mineral value? I believe you'll need at least 50% in order to get any takers. Esp. at 5% and a tight repayment schedule you expect. Also, how can anyone make > 25% profits in the space of a month after taking out a loan? You'd need to pull in about 40% profits in order for a person to get any gain from borrowing. Also, what kind of things will people be taking loans out for? Surely not PvP or for wars. Most likely t2 production/BPO buying. And frankly, I think alot of people dont understand the small margins that t2 production usually offers. IDK, sounds fun. You have my best of wishes. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Zembla
Posted - 2006.01.30 01:23:00 -
[77 ]
Not sure if this has been asked already but; if a person invested 50M, but later on decided he would like to pull out, how would this be realised? Is this not possible? Would the Bank fill the 50M gap, or would the share be available for sale? Also, if a share is intially worth 50, and let's say the initiative becomes a sounding succes, how would the value of the shares adapt to this? Can these shares be sold? Or are they just a mean of rallying money for the required initial capital? Another concern of mine was how you would make yourself visible? For an operation like this I can imagine having forum coverage won't suffice. Is there anything specific planned to attract customers? Sorry if the answers to my questions are considered general knowledge, but I'm not all that familiar with how shares fit into EVE :) <Z> Spread the Z
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 02:22:00 -
[78 ]
Originally by: Zembla Not sure if this has been asked already but; if a person invested 50M, but later on decided he would like to pull out, how would this be realised? Is this not possible? Would the Bank fill the 50M gap, or would the share be available for sale? Also, if a share is intially worth 50, and let's say the initiative becomes a sounding succes, how would the value of the shares adapt to this? Can these shares be sold? Or are they just a mean of rallying money for the required initial capital? Another concern of mine was how you would make yourself visible? For an operation like this I can imagine having forum coverage won't suffice. Is there anything specific planned to attract customers? Sorry if the answers to my questions are considered general knowledge, but I'm not all that familiar with how shares fit into EVE :) <Z> If you invest and later need the money you invested you need to find someone to sell the shares to. As most things go the prices of the shares will depend upon their availability and the success of the venture. If you want to sell and no one will buy your shares at any price then they are worthless (which would be essentially impossible if the bank still exists and is loaning money), but if you want to sell and the shares are valued at 2 times the IPO price then you would have doubled your money + whatever you realized from dividends. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Masa Thavia
Posted - 2006.01.30 04:39:00 -
[79 ]
Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? Gracias
Zooish
Posted - 2006.01.30 08:57:00 -
[80 ]
Quote: Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? I believe a list of investors would be confindential, as many would prefer and expect "not to be named"
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:44:00 -
[81 ]
Thanks for the answers, a few more questions: As a shareholder vote is required to issue more shares, how will BIG react if the majority don't want to expand the shares available (eg. to guard share value), will BIG create a second corporation to force the issue? Will BIG take the financial hit on behalf of the shareholder if goods are lost in-transit or will it come out of the BMBE fund profits or 50/50? eg. From Conquerable stations, War against Fountain Alliance, Random Bad-Luck on alt corp haulers, All shares Sold
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 15:17:00 -
[82 ]
You are not worried that this idea will destroy your reputation and your friends? If it does not work your reputation is gone and gg to you. Right?
Serendipity007
Posted - 2006.01.30 17:35:00 -
[83 ]
Edited by: Serendipity007 on 30/01/2006 17:40:55 Most interesting! If this company is a sucess and more are created like it, we may end up with an EVE stock market, where shares are bought and sold. THAT would truly be interesting. I may talk to my CEO and buy some stock to sell it later when the price goes higher. Would this be ok in the current setup? Edit: Can a character buy shares as a character or will it be on a corp-only basis? Stock Market 4tw! ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.30 17:53:00 -
[84 ]
Originally by: Zooish Quote: Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? I believe a list of investors would be confindential, as many would prefer and expect "not to be named" Such a list is indeed confidential. Only one other BIG un (the one administrating the BMBE holding corp) apart from myself, will know this list. And shares are scheduled to be sent out later tonight. Very first post in this thread will be updated to reflect that. @Serenity Steele 1: Yes a 2nd holding corp is the final solution, should it come to that. 2: Please keep in mind that BMBE is run as a business in itself. ISK is not mixed between BIG and BMBE. (see furthermore previous answer about if BIG gets bogged down in war etc) The only 'mixing' there is, is that BMBE employes (for starters) are all BIG employees as well - and as such recive payment from the BMBE (half the profit) same as the shareholders do (half the profit) As such, any losses incurred by the BMBE, it beeing to lost cargo, or fluctuating mineral prices or... Will be upheld by the BMBE itself, and will mean a reduced profit overall - To both BMBE staff and shareholders. A parallel would be : What would the ISS do, if it's dividend generating outposts all got shut down due to a siege? Thus not generating profit from docking fees. Would the ISS 're-imburse' the shareholders for lost profit on this? @Rthor If it does not work your reputation is gone and gg to you. Right? If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation.BIG Lottery [u
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:08:00 -
[85 ]
Originally by: TornSoul If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation. Wow. Tornsoul, do you stand behind this venture? Would you buy the shares yourself?
Kahn Moquil
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:17:00 -
[86 ]
Edited by: Kahn Moquil on 30/01/2006 18:17:55 Originally by: TornSoul A parallel would be : What would the ISS do, if it's dividend generating outposts all got shut down due to a siege? Thus not generating profit from docking fees. Would the ISS 're-imburse' the shareholders for lost profit on this? Not exactly. It's a whole lot less likely that an ISS outpost will be shut down due to a siege, than it is for a random hauler to get popped. Perhaps you can put in a system where you get less loan for your collateral as the security status of the system the collateral is in gets lower? Something along the lines of 75% for all of high sec, 65% for low sec, and 50% for 0.0 space. 0.0 Collateral is after all a bigger risk to you than high sec collateral. And a question. You say that if the BMBE completely bombs, you will return the isk to the investors. I have no doubt that you will do that, but would you be able to give an indication of what you consider failure? Less than 10% of invested funds given out as loans? Less then 5% given out as loans?
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:21:00 -
[87 ]
Originally by: Rthor Originally by: TornSoul If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation. Wow. Tornsoul, do you stand behind this venture? Would you buy the shares yourself? Do you have any conception of what he meant? He is telling you that their administration will not stand in the way of the bank being a success. This means that if the bank does NOT succeed then it will be because no one was interested in using it, not because BIG screwed up running it. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.30 20:44:00 -
[88 ]
Originally by: Kahn Moquil Edited by: Kahn Moquil on 30/01/2006 18:17:55 Not exactly. It's a whole lot less likely that an ISS outpost will be shut down due to a siege, than it is for a random hauler to get popped. That however is not excactly the correct comparison to make. Instead you should compare : ISS outpost beeing shut down complettly with - BMBE loosing every single hauler. And I agree, neither is very likely. But either can happen to a lesser degree. Originally by: Kahn Moquil Perhaps you can put in a system where you get less loan for your collateral as the security status of the system the collateral is in gets lower? Something along the lines of 75% for all of high sec, 65% for low sec, and 50% for 0.0 space. 0.0 Collateral is after all a bigger risk to you than high sec collateral. I have actually considered that, and the system (DB/website) is ready for it as well. But (for now) I've decided against it, as I prefer to keep it simple (for the clients as well) But - It's easily changable should it be deemed necessary. Originally by: Kahn Moquil And a question. You say that if the BMBE completely bombs, you will return the isk to the investors. I have no doubt that you will do that, but would you be able to give an indication of what you consider failure? Less than 10% of invested funds given out as loans? Less then 5% given out as loans? I will actually prefer not to give any indication of that at this point in time. I'll say as much as, regardless what happens, the BMBE will *at least* 'survive' for 3 months (for word to spread and what not).BIG Lottery [u
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 21:23:00 -
[89 ]
Originally by: Baun He is telling you that their administration will not stand in the way of the bank being a success. This means that if the bank does NOT succeed then it will be because no one was interested in using it, not because BIG screwed up running it. But you know Baun it sounds like this what you and Tornsoul are saying: If the bank fails and the shareholders will lose money it is not going to be our fault but it was the risk that you took when you bought shares. And if you lose money dont hold it against us. I dont know how you guys think but if you set something up and it bombs then you better believe that your reputation will suffer regardless of any disclaimers how it would not be your fault. My question really is if you are trading in BIG reputation for an experiment that other people will pay for you to run. At the very least you could treat shareholders or potential shareholders with respect because you are asking for their money. It is a bit rich to say give us money because we are BIG but if it fails you cannot hold it against us in any way and if you do hold it against us you are crazy because we warned you.
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 22:19:00 -
[90 ]
Originally by: Rthor If the bank fails and the shareholders will lose money it is not going to be our fault but it was the risk that you took when you bought shares. And if you lose money dont hold it against us. The worst thing that will realistically happen is that no one will want to use the bank and that after X period of time, the bank will dissolve and the money it holds will go back to the shareholders. Quote: My question really is if you are trading in BIG reputation for an experiment that other people will pay for you to run. At the very least you could treat shareholders or potential shareholders with respect because you are asking for their money. It is a bit rich to say give us money because we are BIG but if it fails you cannot hold it against us in any way and if you do hold it against us you are crazy because we warned you. BIG is easily one of the most organized, technically skilled and oldest corps in all of EVE. What Tornsoul is saying is simple; This venture will not fail because of BIG's inadequacy or inability to manage it, but rather has some potential to fail solely because of lack of interest. In that situation it wouldn't particularly be BIG's fault (presuming of course that they have been aggressive in marketting the company), but rather something out of their control. Since they would not then have done anything wrong, their reputation would not suffer. He isn't suggesting that if you somehow lose all of your investment (which is pretty much impossible), that he precludes you from blaming him. Of course, such a notion is entirely nonsensical to begin with so its not even worth discussing it. The Enemy's Gate is Down
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