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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
422
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Posted - 2011.11.01 22:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I was doing some history reading about the EvE expansions, and came across something really interesting. Being a post-apocrypha EvE player (Apoc was the splash screen when I first installed Eve Online) I was not privy to all the drama and conflict surrounding earlier expansions.
What I found fascinating was reading that Noah Ward, former lead developer of Eve Online (position now held by CCP Soundwave) was an opponent of implementing Faction Warfare from the very beginning.
This completely changes my perspective the historical relationship between the FW community and the Eve developers. Now it all makes much more sense.
IGÇÖve only seen the recent developments: *the ignoring of forum threads regarding FW
*CCP fails to show up at FW roundtable at Fanfest
*CCP ManifestGÇÖs failed promise at answering the questions in the GÇ£answer everythingGÇ¥ thread
*SoundwaveGÇÖs promise to respond after the Russia trip
*Threadnought about CCP failing to address FW community
*Moving of said threadnought to new forums, lack of CCP response other than more GÇ£weGÇÖll get back to youGÇ¥GÇÖs
*CSM identifying and listing FW under GÇ£abandoned featuresGÇ¥
*FW bizarrely ending up on Winter expansion list
*Hilmar referencing FW as being on list of Winter fixes
*New player threadnought regarding feedback on how to improve FW system
*Random and highly controversial suggestion by CCP Soundwave, followed by several one-liners, than silence again
* CCP Spitfire says heGÇÖll ask development team to respond, followed by all-too-predictable lack of response.
If Faction Warfare was opposed internally from the beginning, that it makes a lot of sense that it was pure fan-service, and very low on CCP GÇÿs long term agenda. I can understand now why everyone has said all along GÇ£CCP doesnGÇÖt care about FWGÇ¥ or GÇ£FW is a development hot potato, no one wants to touch itGÇ¥
So now that I know the history, I need to ask again GÇô
Developers, am I wasting my time giving you feedback on how to improve the system? Are you actually spending ANY time at all looking into this right now? You donGÇÖt have to give us details if its rough, but is this actually being given any development hours? Do you have any intention of seriously iterating on this feature for Winter Expansion?
To be honest, I didnGÇÖt understand the internal history about this topic. IGÇÖm just too new a player. I have shrugged off the naysayers and doubters for a year now, trying to be a voice for the Faction Warfare community in the forums and share feedback ideas. But IGÇÖm not going to waste more time if CCP would just come out and tell us what is really on their minds.
I didnGÇÖt have serious doubts about CCPGÇÖs intentions regarding FW. But I certainly do now.
Can a developer finally step forth and give us the full truth? Where does FW stand? Are you working on anything? I know plenty of players have opinions, and will say GÇ£ I told you soGÇ¥. IGÇÖm not interested in hearing from other players. I want the developers to come clean with me, and let me know whether to continue working on this or to just give it a rest. This is just about common courtesy and respect for me and my time.
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Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
32
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Posted - 2011.11.01 22:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm sure that "opposed internally from the begining" was really more of a case of "debated internally about how to implement and then what WAS implemented did not make some designers happy". I can't imagine what argument could be made against *some* type of faction warfare feature in an overall sense. It adds to the depth of the game. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
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Posted - 2011.11.01 22:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sing it with me....Prom night dumpster baby.... |
mkint
227
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
FW is a symbol for everything that's wrong with CCP. As long as FW is not only broken, but that CCP maintains a media blackout about it, it's proof CCP is just in it for the paycheck. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
259
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its a mute point since Noah(aka CCP Hammerhead) was part of the 20%. I think Noah had more of a issue with it not being fully developed and not thought through all the way. Thats why I think he was against it. |
BoneEater
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Blog please? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
422
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:I'm sure that "opposed internally from the begining" was really more of a case of "debated internally about how to implement and then what WAS implemented did not make some designers happy". I can't imagine what argument could be made against *some* type of faction warfare feature in an overall sense. It adds to the depth of the game.
I'm basing my reaction off of the history of CCP's actions regarding the topic, regardless of what they've said. If some were opposed to the way it was implemented, you'd think there would be all the more motivation to correct the problem in the many many expansions that have been released since then.
Its not even about the complete and total lack of consideration given not only to the feature, but about the complete lack of consideration for the players' time that has been put in trying to communicate with CCP. The history of failed commitments to share their intentions for the feature points squarely towards "opposed from the beginning", not "this needs work, this form just wont do."
Again, lack of CCP communication regarding FW is old news, I just feel like an idiot for having stuck up for CCP for so long, trying to say "lets give them a chance" than I read about this and everything they've said to just rings hollow for me now.
Quote:Sing it with me....Prom night dumpster baby....
You pretty much nailed it. This is how I felt today reading about FW's origin story.
I'm willing to stand corrected, and hoping that CCP can prove those I've historically argued against wrong come Winter Expansion.
But please, developers, if you don't seriously have FW fixes that you are working on, show us some courtesy and just tell us right now. The community deserves that at least. |
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong
2
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
chirrup chirrup chirrup...
That's right, it's the sound of crickets. |
Destru Kaneda
CTRL-Q
1
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
This. Music for robots, hackers, pirates, geeks and miscellaneous nerds. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
125
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
FW is a black eye for CCP, they have no idea how to fix or change it. Players have offered MANY ideas but since no one at CCP has a vision for it, none of those suggestions get incorporated into a grand vision.
It is what it is, another abandoned feature. Imagine playing Donkey Kong where every barrel looks like it hits you. Would you rather I fix that or the shadow Kong projects?
Welcome to Eve Online where lasers are dumber than barrels! |
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
125
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
So to the question are you wasting your time ...
Are you having fun when you DO IT? if yes then NO, keep at it. If you aren't having fun thinking of it, don't think about it.
Sadly you'll need your cerebral pleasures from elsewhere. Imagine playing Donkey Kong where every barrel looks like it hits you. Would you rather I fix that or the shadow Kong projects?
Welcome to Eve Online where lasers are dumber than barrels! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
422
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:FW is a black eye for CCP, they have no idea how to fix or change it. Players have offered MANY ideas but since no one at CCP has a vision for it, none of those suggestions get incorporated into a grand vision.
It is what it is, another abandoned feature.
You know what? I can totally live with that at this point.
But I feel like I at least deserve to hear that from them, instead of taking hours of my time to provide feedback that they knowingly had no intention of utilizing.
I'm also fine if they've indeed been reading our posts as they say they do, and want to implement features we've proposed, but know that its too much for Winter Expansion. They could tell us that truth too.
Regardless of whether they have no intention of working on FW, or whether they are but are afraid to admit that its too ambitious for winter, they owe us that bare minimum amount of response, so we know whether to keep putting any serious effort into this.
I understand details about fixes may not be in releasable form at this point in time, but CCP should at least tell us whether they've actually been discussing / developing the feature internally at all. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
424
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:So to the question are you wasting your time ...
Are you having fun when you DO IT? if yes then NO, keep at it. If you aren't having fun thinking of it, don't think about it.
Sadly you'll need your cerebral pleasures from elsewhere.
I would say most of the time I enjoy writing my ideas about the game, and listening to other's ideas as well. In particular, the thread where most of the activity is currently has even further broadened my understanding of a community I thought I knew all about. Some of the issues I previously felt strong about, like supercap removal from lowsec, have changed for me since hearing alternative perspectives, and I'm more optimistic now than I use to be about that situation. Respectful debate betters everyone involved.
That being said, would I engage in a feedback discussion day after day if I knew that feedback wasn't going to be utilized? Of course not.
There is a big difference between saying "Send us your thoughts, because if we ever get around to FW at all than we might use them" and saying "We are actually building on this feature right now! Your feedback helps us get the feature done on time and in a form that strengthens the game and makes it more fun. "
We deserve to know which of the two they are saying. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
138
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
The history speaks for itself man.
Stop looking for rays of hope
Quote:There is a big difference between saying "Send us your thoughts, because if we ever get around to FW at all than we might use them" and saying "We are actually building on this feature right now! Your feedback helps us get the feature done on time and in a form that strengthens the game and makes it more fun. "
We deserve to know which of the two they are saying.
Or "keep giving us ideas so we can pretend we're listening" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=255722#post255722
My stance on WiS |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
157
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
A real fix to action warfare, and not some half assed number moving would be one of the few things that could get me to buy a year long subscription again. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
424
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
I should direct my initial inquiry towards the current CSM as well.
The CSM has seen many of the cool new features ahead of time, they also would be in a fair place to asses whether this is lip service or whether they've actually seen Faction Warfare features on the developers desks during interviews and tours and discussions.
So, I'd be just as happy to hear from a CSM whether they were coming out of left field when they announced Winter Expansion as including FW fixes, or whether there is actually progress on this feature. |
Amro One
One.
17
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Posted - 2011.11.02 01:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Your wasting your time. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
64
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Posted - 2011.11.02 02:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
I support this thread, having started the original thread on the old forums when CCP missed the round table.
All the questions and promises that Hans has asked, I have raised too, such as how long does it take for Soundwave to get back from Russia etc...
Let me be clear here. Hans has a vision for FW that I may not totally agree on, same as others may not agree with some of my ideas. What cannot be disputed is that at the moment, he probably is the number one bunny jumping up and down on the forums, with a number of us, including myself, also chipping in our 2c to try and keep the noise and PR pressure up
The biggest issue is that Spitfire asked us to consolidate out feedback into a single thread, which we largely did. 23 pages later, we haven't seen a dev in about 17 pages and well over a week... The dev (Soundwave) put a radical idea to the FW community, then seemed to leave.
BTW - for those who aren't up to speed. The idea Soundwave put out there - removing NPC navy - has been the only thing suggested that was specifically about FW as opposed to something that FW benefitted from as a side effect. That said - it destroys the very essence of why we are fighting for a militia... You might as well just say this is a big RvB type setup accross of high sec since the empires would no longer care that enemy militia have entered their territory...
Fix Faction Warfare CCP!!! |
Silence iKillYouu
The Innocent Criminals
40
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Posted - 2011.11.02 02:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kuan Yida wrote:chirrup chirrup chirrup...
That's right, it's the sound of crickets.
Sounds like birds to me. |
Hershman
G-Weezy
41
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Posted - 2011.11.02 02:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
I kind of like FW as it is... |
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Silence iKillYouu
The Innocent Criminals
40
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Posted - 2011.11.02 03:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hershman wrote:I kind of like FW as it is... Yea I don't mind it:) Just needs more players in my poo timezone |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
139
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Posted - 2011.11.02 05:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:A real fix to action warfare, and not some half assed number moving would be one of the few things that could get me to buy a year long subscription again.
What about WiS? Thought you were quitting if they didnt ...whatever you were on about again.
Also, didnt you post like 3 "I quit" threads?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=255722#post255722
My stance on WiS |
Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
69
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Posted - 2011.11.02 06:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
I wouldn't be surprised that some in CCP would be against the implementation of FW since it stands in stark contrast with one fundamental idea that the developers keeps describing eve with GÇô for players, by players. One of the most awsome things with CCP is that they repeatedly state that they have a hands off stance towards the game but introducing factional warfare was contradicting that view since up to that point the players were the ones creating the premise for conflict but now CCP interfered with the player driven universe and created a "artificial" or developer created reason to wage war.
On a personal note the introduction of fw was one of the reasons why i took a very long break from Eve back in the days. It felt tlike CCP was wandering away from one of their core principles GÇô much like how people who quits or takes breaks over the NEX-drama feels today. Admittedly the ones who complained about fw on that level back in the days were very few. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
16
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Posted - 2011.11.02 07:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
You had that nice thread about how to make FW better, but i did not see any good new ideas in there that can be made.
FW is complicated thing in EVE as it is not part of 0.0 that is the main focus of the game. So if FW would be only place to fight in EVE ccp could make it easily to work.
When people really can propose ideas that can fill all restrictions and goals ccp made at beginning, then those proposals might be implemented.
So answer is yes, you are wasting your time, because you are missing real vision what to do. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
64
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Posted - 2011.11.02 09:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:I wouldn't be surprised that some in CCP would be against the implementation of FW since it stands in stark contrast with one fundamental idea that the developers keeps describing eve with GÇô for players, by players. One of the most awsome things with CCP is that they repeatedly state that they have a hands off stance towards the game but introducing factional warfare was contradicting that view since up to that point the players were the ones creating the premise for conflict but now CCP interfered with the player driven universe and created a "artificial" or developer created reason to wage war.
On a personal note the introduction of fw was one of the reasons why i took a very long break from Eve back in the days. It felt tlike CCP was wandering away from one of their core principles GÇô much like how people who quits or takes breaks over the NEX-drama feels today. Admittedly the ones who complained about fw on that level back in the days were very few. So you are against CCP creating alliances as well, since they were added to the game by CCP? Or maybe missions. Or incursions???
CCP provide the players with TOOLS (of which, FW is one of them, albeit a little bit broken) to make our content with...
Fix Faction Warfare CCP!!! |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2011.11.02 10:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:I'm sure that "opposed internally from the begining" was really more of a case of "debated internally about how to implement and then what WAS implemented did not make some designers happy". I can't imagine what argument could be made against *some* type of faction warfare feature in an overall sense. It adds to the depth of the game.
I think you'll find that Mr Ward disagreed quite vehemently with the whole idea of factional warfare, not just the implementation.
I also think you'll find he holds the same position regarding FW now.
That's my understanding - its entirely possible he's changed his mind.
Hans matey some of us have been pointing this out for years - I've mentioned it to you in other threads, probably on old forums now.
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
27
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Posted - 2011.11.02 10:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I should direct my initial inquiry towards the current CSM as well.
The CSM has seen many of the cool new features ahead of time, they also would be in a fair place to asses whether this is lip service or whether they've actually seen Faction Warfare features on the developers desks during interviews and tours and discussions.
So, I'd be just as happy to hear from a CSM whether they were coming out of left field when they announced Winter Expansion as including FW fixes, or whether there is actually progress on this feature. Get a FHC login and make your case there. The CSM can't really follow the drivel here on eve-o because of the high R+¬tard/Signal ratio. On FHC the rage is much higher, but the debate gets followed more closely. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
427
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Posted - 2011.11.02 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bomberlocks wrote: Get a FHC login and make your case there. The CSM can't really follow the drivel here on eve-o because of the high R+¬tard/Signal ratio. On FHC the rage is much higher, but the debate gets followed more closely.
I've read the FHC forums, its barely a step up from 4chan in maturity level, (not to mention its a pretty horrible place to go for fitting advice). But its not the debate I'm after at this point, that's been going on for years. I started this thread to give the CSM and developers a chance to confirm what was meant when they mentioned "faction warfare" in the list of winter fixes.
Is something so trivial like discount C.O. BPC's considered the FW "fix" or are they working on more??
I really just want to know whether or not FW is actually being discussed developed, or whether its a purely hypothetical "if we have time we might consider adding a quick fix" sort of thing. The players putting the time in to share feedback (not just myself) deserve to know whether CCP is dedicating resources to this, or just saying that feedback is welcomed but not necessarily being acted on.
The continued pattern of ambiguous statements amounts to simply stringing players along, I think we can all handle just about any response from CCP or the CSM about Faction Warfare as long as its open and honest.
I sincerely hope that my response here is overblown, and that they are indeed working on Faction Warfare improvements for Winter as publically stated, and that they just haven't released the blogs yet. But if this is the case, all they have to do is say so.
They've been willing to give very clear statements about every other feature in the expansion even if its a work in progress. "We're working on it, we can't release details but stay tuned for a blog" etc. I think its fair to ask for the same courtesy regarding Faction Warfare, and especially so given CCP's history with the FW community.
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Malkav Rushnikov
The Order of the Oar
0
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Posted - 2011.11.02 16:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP has historically been slow to fix broken features. However, the Winter expansion is largely one big "fix broke stuff" expansion with a couple of new ships thrown in for good measure. So I think if they can correct course on things like blasters, which have been broken for years, there is hope for Faction Warfare, even if they're prioritizing other things first.
As far as concerns that the FW "fix" will be insufficient, again, I'd say how they're handling blasters is how I'd expect them to handle it. The fix might not be satisfactory to everyone, but I have faith the the new, leaner, humbler CCP will continue to monitor and tweak whatever fix(es) they do make until it's actually a fun part of the game.
Maybe I'm just a naive optimist. |
Lord Meriak
Amarrian Retribution
0
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Posted - 2011.11.02 16:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
The missing of the round table : Was bought to our attention buy Ydyp. Thead then bought to forum by Har Harrison.
BUT ydyp has / was a player of eve sence 2004 / 5 he traveled to fanfest but after the no show and all that been happened with fw. He lost heart and left eve. later followed by mad scott to players i have been playing with sence they turned up in a sytem in there 1 st crus ship.
I really hope they pull something out the bag more players that i have known for years ,may be moving on.
I have been an eve player sence 2003 and lost so many friends of the years last few months have gotten worse :(
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