So a Derptron kicking 120DPS unheated will never break that tank.

It will when he runs out of cap charges. Granted, that can take forever, but it'll work eventually.

Bring more ammo. He's burning cap charges to keep the reps going.

Hello all,

Recently I started off-plexing again and keep seeing Incursuses in D-Scan inside plexes. Naturally I'd avoid them on my brawler kestrel but got a good reminder of why they are the gods of T1 frigs and died when both of us landed on gate at the same time. So I switched tactics and ships and went for the YE OLDE kiting Condor. Went into a plex and saw an Incursus on long scan and there was only 1 WT in local so I insulted his mother to fight me. Well I got it alright and he just repped all my damage until I ran out of ammo while he sat there being 19 km off unable to escape due to long point. We parted ways after I went back from attending to nature.

So here's my question. Is there a way to counter Incursus on a T1 frig? How much DPS do I need to break the tank of a dual rep Incursus? What's the range of their blasters? Optimal and fall-off? How to pull range if we're both brawlers and are both web and scrammed? Ships that are natural predators to Incursus? Do energy neutralizers and vampires work against them? What are the most common Incursus builds?

I'd have to test it, but the dual repper fit I use has a max cap of 407.5 GJ, carries 13 Navy Cap Booster 400s and can pump one in every 22 seconds or so. Without the cap boosters, and with everything running, cap lasts about 30 seconds. With skilful management (watching the cap and mod cycles carefully before lobbing in a 400) you can squeeze 7 minutes out of it in some fights. Cap booster 200s are a bit easier to run, but they're not as time efficient. 400s are the way to go.

By my reckoning, even with that Condor's neut running and sucking out 54GJ every six seconds, I think the incursus would be able to operate for 70-80 seconds without capping out - plus it can instantly 'recap' to maximum once reloaded and ready. This assumes the incursus does in fact need to run both reppers at max capacity continually from the outset, which you often don't. You don't need to switch them on for a bit until shields are well down, plus for shorter fights generally the combo of SAR + SAAR is better.

Plus - that neut is gobbling down 34GJ of the condor's cap every six seconds, not to mention the scram, web and AB cap requirements. How long is that going to last?

I don't want you to think that I'm particularly batting for the incursus, or on the cusp of getting "Incursus dual-rep FTW" tattooed on my face or something, but it's a dangerous game getting into a cocky neut battle against a ship that's carrying the equivalent of 13 normal frigate capacitors in its hold in one go.

There is definitely enough powergrid to fit 3 x 125mm IIs on a dual-rep incursus, even with modest skills. I'll post the fit if you want. You can fit 2 x 125s and a 150 if your fitting skills are good enough.

So scram range kiting against a rail / dual rep incursus at 7km is great for the incursus - that's just the optimal for 125mm IIs with CNA. Even with dual tracking disruption, the rail-repper can switch to much longer range ammo and still hit. Plus you're scrammed if you're inside 9k, slowing down to where the tracking on the 125 IIs is sufficient to score decent hits even if you're orbitting with an AB.

Although the dual repper is burning through cap booster charges to keep everything running, it lasts well over five minutes and with skills at V and proper rigs can restore more than 102 EHP a second. Enough to make a dent in all but the tankiest / dampiest of kites.

I agree that the blaster fit dual repper gets caned by some kites if they wriggle out of its grasp, but the rail fit dual repper is way more adaptable, however.

There's an assumption that all dual rep Incursii are using blasters. What happens if the dual repper is using 125mm rails?

This is a bit of a theorycrafting battle, but assume, as you suggest, the preferred optimal on both sides is 6km so the Condor can get the neut running nicely.

Here's the incursus fit so you can see what I'm talking about:

3 x 125mm Railgun IIs with CNA.

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Capacitor Booster II with Navy Cap Booster 400s

Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Ancilliary Armour Repairer with Nanite

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II

The Incursus does 112 DPS including the drone with max skills, has EHP of 3440, reps 102.3 EHP per second before the Nanite runs out - and can cap boost 400GJ every 22-23 seconds for 13 rounds - almost precisely 300 seconds.


The Condor does 112 DPS with max skills (assuming faction Scourge rockets), has EHP of 3847.5 and is cap stable at 46.7% even with the neut running. Which is nice.

Condor's shield recharge 16.4 EHP per second, I believe.

Assuming no evasive moves - just standing and blapping at optimal - this gives the incursus about 70-80 seconds of play before the cap starts running out and the shield reppers stop working - although, again, it can quickly reboost once the reloading cycle is complete.

60-70 seconds is more than enough for the incursus to see off the Condor, IMHO. It certainly won't be a pushover for the Condor. But, as always, pilot skill comes into play.

Gentlemen - I see and accept to a degree the points you're both making about the tracking on rails. But it isn't correct to assume that the tracking on rails, without a web, is so completely bobbins that they don't hit at all or don't do any damage. They do.

And therein lies the tradeoff you make with a dual-rep rail incursus. You are in a marathon, not a sprint. It just takes longer to get the job done.

Dual rep is most useful for hunting larger ratting ships. That's about it. Fit Incursus for speed and deeps or reach and deeps.

They don't.

Stop being bad.

I'm basing that on over 150 kills with an Incursus.

All joking aside, are you actually seriously suggesting that rails do no damage, at any range, unless your opponent is webbed?

Seriously?

I know they're not "F1 and win" like rockets, but it simply isn't correct that the tracking on rails is so awful that they don't hit against anything other than a static, webbed target. At 500m, agreed, they struggle, but we started this debate talking about 7km as the range at which the repping incursus was going to get owned by rockets. They hit fine at 7km.

and without a web how exactly are you going to keep an opponent from orbiting you close? do tell.

I know that rails hit fine at 7 km.. But you need the web to keep your enemies there.

Proper Rail Incursus

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20031706

I'm about to deliver a 'LOL' answer to that, so take it in the spirit in which it is intended....

Easy. Just rep long enough that out of sheer boredom they log off in combat, run out of rockets, or the downtime happens.

That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to.

[Incursus, 125mm]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

Some prefer an adaptive resistance whatsit instead of the plate. You can probably fit 150s if you have good fitting and tracking skills.

Bah!

[Incursus, Brawler - Rail]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

1MN Afterburner II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

Screw a DCU. You rep armour not hull. Fit real guns and blap the crap out of them before they know what hit them!

160dps at 8.6km range, 175dps tank while paste loaded. Most things just die.

Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks

What's wrong with rails? I thought rails were the LML's of hybrid guns and blasters the rocket variant. I've been using missiles and rockets all my life so things like "tracking speed", "transversal velocity", "angular velocity" are alien to me.

Also the rocket condor build that was posted is good. I made one the other day but had to put an ACR rig due to LOLFITTING skills. Also 200mm plate kestrel or 400mm plate kestrel? I made 2 armor kestrels to fight firetails but keeps getting ambushed by condors.

The difference between rails and lml's is that you actually have to pilot your ship to apply dps with railguns

Its not just press f1 and keep away like lml's

So manual piloting or keep at range at x KM? I heard orbiting kills your DPS on turrets.

Protip

meta 3 dcu.

So manual piloting or keep at range at x KM? I heard orbiting kills your DPS on turrets.

I've spent a lot of time tinkering with the scram kite, so a few more refinements to consider:

- Use the meta 3 X5 Prototype Engine Enervator instead of the Fleeting if you've the CPU skills - uses 1 more CPU to fit but saves you almost a million ISK.
- With some of the money you save, fit the Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I to give you that extra few meters of range.
- Pseudoelectron Containment Field I instead of the DCII, as suggested.
- rigs wise, if you're the fitting skills IMHO the optimum scenario is Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I / Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I (gets the range of Navy antimatter with the 125s up to 7,762m, so you're still at optimal for longer) and, perhaps controversially, Small Anti-Explosive Pump I to fill that hole in your resists.
- I prefer the plate on this.

So therefore I consider the absolute final word in 125mm rail 7km AB / scram kite fitting to be this:

[Incursus, 125mm]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

With the skills to fit this, you're looking at EHP 4497 / 166 DPS with overheated guns. Cap lasts 52 seconds with all mods on.

1. x5 uses less cpu than fleeting not more.

2. jb5 for life

3. Collision is better on this, alpha so nice.

You're right. I stand corrected. I had always assumed it used more. Fleeting does generate an extra 2% of velocity reduction, but I suppose that's hardly worth sweating for the extra million the Fleeting costs above the X5.



It's cheaper, aye, but the extra 375m reach of Faint Epsilon is worth the additional cash, IMHO. Plus it uses 3GJ of cap every 5s, compared to 3.75GJ for the J5b.



Considering my original fit, and with guns overheated, the stats with either are:

Burst: 146DPS / volley 317 every 1.63 seconds / cap lasts 56s with all the relevant mods active.

Collision: 145DPS / volley 337 every 1.78 seconds / cap lasts 58s.

Alpha is nice if you're going to be one or two shotting something. With volleys of 337, though, not likely to happen.

Burst gives you 34 volleys before cap runs out = 10,788 damage

Collision gives you 32 = 10,784 damage.

Not a massive amount in it over the long haul, although burst gives you that extra volley every 10 volleys compared to Collision.

Not a massive amount in it over the long haul, although burst gives you that extra volley every 10 volleys compared to Collision.