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Yang Aurilen
The Black Talon Training Corp Talons Of Blood
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello all,
Recently I started off-plexing again and keep seeing Incursuses in D-Scan inside plexes. Naturally I'd avoid them on my brawler kestrel but got a good reminder of why they are the gods of T1 frigs and died when both of us landed on gate at the same time. So I switched tactics and ships and went for the YE OLDE kiting Condor. Went into a plex and saw an Incursus on long scan and there was only 1 WT in local so I insulted his mother to fight me. Well I got it alright and he just repped all my damage until I ran out of ammo while he sat there being 19 km off unable to escape due to long point. We parted ways after I went back from attending to nature.
So here's my question. Is there a way to counter Incursus on a T1 frig? How much DPS do I need to break the tank of a dual rep Incursus? What's the range of their blasters? Optimal and fall-off? How to pull range if we're both brawlers and are both web and scrammed? Ships that are natural predators to Incursus? Do energy neutralizers and vampires work against them? What are the most common Incursus builds? |

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
172
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 04:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dual rep incursus is terrible and can be countered by literally every single ship you put a web on.
Neutron Merlin works, but so does literally every single thing that has a web and isn't using ion blasters |

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
592
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 05:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
There is a bit of guesswork involved.
A rocket kessy will usually beat a blaster incursis (will beat any T1 blaster frig tbh) You just have to orbit 8 km ish and stay out of his blasters. Kestrels also work well with a 400 plate and dual webs + scram + AB.
Add to that - most people are stupid and only carry Null ammo cause it makes big numbers appear during fitting = rockets for the win.
If they are rail fit - a condor/kessy/hookbill with Tracking disruptors should do the trick. Just kill the drones 1st and then chip away at them.
OR
Take friends and splode them so fast their reps wont matter.
If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Now don't judge or question. You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do. (Opiate - Tool) |

Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
576
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
you can kill incursus with AB, scram, web kestrel, it will take some time so kill drone 1st and take enough range and kite until incursus runs out of cap charges. If you are buffer fitted kestrel it may be close fight if incursus has null ammo, at least if you do not have warfare links for tackle range, but if it takes too long you should always be able to take more range and escape. |

Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
332
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 06:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bring more ammo. He's burning cap charges to keep the reps going. |

Danny John-Peter
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
323
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 08:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Anything with a web basically.
Dual rep Incursus are pretty terrible, they have awful range control and poor projection, a Railcursus should take one EZ mode, sit at 8-9k, 10k with a heated scram if he is still hitting you, which he shouldn't. |

Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
313
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 10:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tracking Range Disruptor works wonders against blasters if you can keep range control. So the best combo is to go with AB + Scram + Web + Tracking Disruptor in the medium slots. Just stay at 6 km range and kite him.
And if you notice he is rail fitted... then go 500m close orbit and switch to Tracking Speed Disruption script. |

Mnemosyne Gloob
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
128
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 11:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
small neuts and drones. |

Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
348
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 13:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Inferior Gallentean technology. |

Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
52
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
the standard web/ab/scram rocket kestrel will beat him. Orbit at 6-7k so even Null has a hard time hitting you with tracking problems. Kill his drone. Sure, he'll tank like 9k dmg but with nova rockets you should win easily. |
|

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
177
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 14:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Honestly you guys are over thinking this.
Dual rep incursus typically fits ions so the damage it can do at 6km even with null loaded is going to be somewhere in the realm of single digits
Dual rep incursus forgoes a web for a cap injector which means that an AB+web setup will have a speed advantage of between 500-1000 m/s depending what you are flying
Sit at 6km with barrage, with scorch, with drones, with rails loaded with CNAM, with rockets, with artillery, with neutrons loaded with null, all will work.
The question being asked is "how do I beat a ship with the worst damage projection and no range control?", it's a pretty easy one. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2904
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
DUAL REP INCURSUS TOO STRONK!!!!
(but no most here are right, slow him down, neut him out, watch him cry)
|

Major Killz
La Fraternite
256
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not sure the Incursus is good at destroying other ships? They seem to just be an object in space doing whatever objects in space do = (Incursus mitigate a lot of damage and not much else).
An Incursus with a plate and armor repair seem to be the best setup in most cases (go with railguns or blasters from there).
As others have said. Most ships with an ab, scram and web capable of doing at least 120 dps will win against an Incursus. eventually. So, Rocket kestrel or Condor will do well. - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos - Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |

Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Problem with dual rep Incursus is not that it's difficult to control range or kite. It's that it takes for effing ever to break it's tank. Most can easily tank 175+ DPS, 150+ pure explosive. Not many T1 frigates can crank that kind of DPS out without overheating, especially at scram kite ranges. Any DPS you do get through that has to chew through another 3k+ EHP.
So a Derptron kicking 120DPS unheated will never break that tank. A dual web DCU tanked T2 rocket kessie only throws about 160DPS explosive, so would take almost 5 minutes to break a dual-rep Incursus. Most other T1 frigates are in the same, if not worse, boat.
Better bets are any destroyer, really - they can generally throw 250+ DPS and still have a good tank, more than enough to handle the Incursus' DPS. Comets can crank out enough DPS, either running a TD or Scram Kiting (Null Neutrons or 150mm CNAM would work). Other FW faction frigs generally can't crank out enough DPS. |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
996
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:So a Derptron kicking 120DPS unheated will never break that tank.
It will when he runs out of cap charges. Granted, that can take forever, but it'll work eventually.
|

Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
21
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:So a Derptron kicking 120DPS unheated will never break that tank. It will when he runs out of cap charges. Granted, that can take forever, but it'll work eventually.
Problem with that plan is that by the time he runs out of charges, the Derptron is already dead.
Neuts + drones is probably your best solo bet for T1 frigs. Tristans for example could do pretty well. |

Logical Chaos
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
63
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gorn Arming wrote:Bring more ammo. He's burning cap charges to keep the reps going.
Prolly not for a kiting *** low dps Condor :P |

Catherine Woodville
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dual rep incursus is one of the easiest ships to solo. AB, scram, web and neut. Keep at 6kms and just wait for them to cap out.
Now the rail incursus is a whole different story... |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1563
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 00:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Hello all,
Recently I started off-plexing again and keep seeing Incursuses in D-Scan inside plexes. Naturally I'd avoid them on my brawler kestrel but got a good reminder of why they are the gods of T1 frigs and died when both of us landed on gate at the same time. So I switched tactics and ships and went for the YE OLDE kiting Condor. Went into a plex and saw an Incursus on long scan and there was only 1 WT in local so I insulted his mother to fight me. Well I got it alright and he just repped all my damage until I ran out of ammo while he sat there being 19 km off unable to escape due to long point. We parted ways after I went back from attending to nature.
So here's my question. Is there a way to counter Incursus on a T1 frig? How much DPS do I need to break the tank of a dual rep Incursus? What's the range of their blasters? Optimal and fall-off? How to pull range if we're both brawlers and are both web and scrammed? Ships that are natural predators to Incursus? Do energy neutralizers and vampires work against them? What are the most common Incursus builds?
Pretty much all frigates in the game can quite easily kill a dual rep incursus
Seeing how its **** at just about everything (MWD dual rep is kinda fun though) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Zappity
Kurved Space
554
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dual rep is most useful for hunting larger ratting ships. That's about it. Fit Incursus for speed and deeps or reach and deeps.
I can't remember the last time I lost one to a Kestrel btw. Most people do not fly/fit them well. Kestrels should be the natural Incursus killer. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
|

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
834
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 04:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
A brawler Condor with rocket/neut/ab/scram/web/MSE would have worked. It has enough dps to force the two reps to be on and the neut will make them eat through their navy 400's.
It's also a fun ship to troll people who see a Condor in a plex, grab their mwd/scram frig of choice and proceed to die horribly when they're the ones that end up scrammed and webbed.
Just make sure to sit 30km from the timer and pretend you're afk/clueless. |

Maximus Hashur
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 18:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dual rep incursus, as most people here are saying, is by no means a tough fight if you know about range control. I take them out regularly in an arty slasher and/or arty firetail. They expect a brawl and get all confident, only to be scram kited with me at 8 km with opt range disruption making the edge of their falloff (even with null) about 3.5 km.
Scram range kiting is the key, in anything that can do more than 100-120 DPS at 7 km, or for arty just let the alpha overwhelm the rep cycle. hit keep at range 7.5 and watch D Looked up...saw this F***ING clown dropping like a rock.-á Woke up in Vylade wondering what just happened!!! |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 05:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
There's an assumption that all dual rep Incursii are using blasters. What happens if the dual repper is using 125mm rails? |

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 12:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't think there is enough power grid, but if there were you'd just switch to a right orbit where the guns can't track you |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
There is definitely enough powergrid to fit 3 x 125mm IIs on a dual-rep incursus, even with modest skills. I'll post the fit if you want. You can fit 2 x 125s and a 150 if your fitting skills are good enough.
So scram range kiting against a rail / dual rep incursus at 7km is great for the incursus - that's just the optimal for 125mm IIs with CNA. Even with dual tracking disruption, the rail-repper can switch to much longer range ammo and still hit. Plus you're scrammed if you're inside 9k, slowing down to where the tracking on the 125 IIs is sufficient to score decent hits even if you're orbitting with an AB.
Although the dual repper is burning through cap booster charges to keep everything running, it lasts well over three minutes and with skills at V and proper rigs can restore more than 102 EHP a second. Enough to make a dent in all but the tankiest / dampiest of kites.
I agree that the blaster fit dual repper gets caned by some kites if they wriggle out of its grasp, but the rail fit dual repper is way more adaptable, however. |

Stalking Mantis
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 13:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Anything with a neut will ruin it's day.
Try a MAN's condor. (Not that wimpy td missle one).
High power 1x Small Energy Neutralizer II 3x Rocket Launcher II Medium power 1x Warp Scrambler II 1x Medium Shield Extender II 1x 1MN Afterburner II 1x Stasis Webifier II Low power 1x Ballistic Control System II 1x Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Rig Slot 1x Small Bay Loading Accelerator I 1x Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I 1x Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Watch ppl come straight into your plex thinking your td mwd missile fit.......scram/web/neut/overheat rockets.....mitigate damage by keeping 6 to 7 k range....think you can't hang and need to bail? Over heat ab burn out of scram range and vamos.
Peace |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'd have to test it, but the dual repper fit I use has a max cap of 407.5 GJ, carries 13 Navy Cap Booster 400s and can pump one in every 22 seconds or so. Without the cap boosters, and with everything running, cap lasts about 30 seconds. With skilful management (watching the cap and mod cycles carefully before lobbing in a 400) you can squeeze 7 minutes out of it in some fights. Cap booster 200s are a bit easier to run, but they're not as time efficient. 400s are the way to go.
By my reckoning, even with that Condor's neut running and sucking out 54GJ every six seconds, I think the incursus would be able to operate for 70-80 seconds without capping out - plus it can instantly 'recap' to maximum once reloaded and ready. This assumes the incursus does in fact need to run both reppers at max capacity continually from the outset, which you often don't. You don't need to switch them on for a bit until shields are well down, plus for shorter fights generally the combo of SAR + SAAR is better.
Plus - that neut is gobbling down 34GJ of the condor's cap every six seconds, not to mention the scram, web and AB cap requirements. How long is that going to last?
I don't want you to think that I'm particularly batting for the incursus, or on the cusp of getting "Incursus dual-rep FTW" tattooed on my face or something, but it's a dangerous game getting into a cocky neut battle against a ship that's carrying the equivalent of 13 normal frigate capacitors in its hold in one go. |

Stalking Mantis
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sleban wrote:I'd have to test it, but the dual repper fit I use has a max cap of 407.5 GJ, carries 13 Navy Cap Booster 400s and can pump one in every 22 seconds or so. Without the cap boosters, and with everything running, cap lasts about 30 seconds. With skilful management (watching the cap and mod cycles carefully before lobbing in a 400) you can squeeze 7 minutes out of it in some fights. Cap booster 200s are a bit easier to run, but they're not as time efficient. 400s are the way to go.
By my reckoning, even with that Condor's neut running and sucking out 54GJ every six seconds, I think the incursus would be able to operate for 70-80 seconds without capping out - plus it can instantly 'recap' to maximum once reloaded and ready. This assumes the incursus does in fact need to run both reppers at max capacity continually from the outset, which you often don't. You don't need to switch them on for a bit until shields are well down, plus for shorter fights generally the combo of SAR + SAAR is better.
Plus - that neut is gobbling down 34GJ of the condor's cap every six seconds, not to mention the scram, web and AB cap requirements. How long is that going to last?
I don't want you to think that I'm particularly batting for the incursus, or on the cusp of getting "Incursus dual-rep FTW" tattooed on my face or something, but it's a dangerous game getting into a cocky neut battle against a ship that's carrying the equivalent of 13 normal frigate capacitors in its hold in one go.
The constant damage output on that condor is too much. With my skills your talking a volley every 2 seconds of rockets. |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 14:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
This is a bit of a theorycrafting battle, but assume, as you suggest, the preferred optimal on both sides is 6km so the Condor can get the neut running nicely.
Here's the incursus fit so you can see what I'm talking about:
3 x 125mm Railgun IIs with CNA.
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Small Capacitor Booster II with Navy Cap Booster 400s
Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Small Armor Repairer II Small Ancilliary Armour Repairer with Nanite
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Nanobot Accelerator I
Hobgoblin II
The Incursus does 112 DPS including the drone with max skills, has EHP of 3440, reps 102.3 EHP per second before the Nanite runs out - and can cap boost 400GJ every 22-23 seconds for 13 rounds - almost precisely 300 seconds.
The Condor does 112 DPS with max skills (assuming faction Scourge rockets), has EHP of 3847.5 and is cap stable at 46.7% even with the neut running. Which is nice.
Condor's shield recharge 16.4 EHP per second, I believe.
Assuming no evasive moves - just standing and blapping at optimal - this gives the incursus about 70-80 seconds of play before the cap starts running out and the shield reppers stop working - although, again, it can quickly reboost once the reloading cycle is complete.
60-70 seconds is more than enough for the incursus to see off the Condor, IMHO. It certainly won't be a pushover for the Condor. But, as always, pilot skill comes into play.
|

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
183
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 15:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sleban wrote:There is definitely enough powergrid to fit 3 x 125mm IIs on a dual-rep incursus, even with modest skills. I'll post the fit if you want. You can fit 2 x 125s and a 150 if your fitting skills are good enough.
So scram range kiting against a rail / dual rep incursus at 7km is great for the incursus - that's just the optimal for 125mm IIs with CNA. Even with dual tracking disruption, the rail-repper can switch to much longer range ammo and still hit. Plus you're scrammed if you're inside 9k, slowing down to where the tracking on the 125 IIs is sufficient to score decent hits even if you're orbitting with an AB.
Although the dual repper is burning through cap booster charges to keep everything running, it lasts well over five minutes and with skills at V and proper rigs can restore more than 102 EHP a second. Enough to make a dent in all but the tankiest / dampiest of kites.
I agree that the blaster fit dual repper gets caned by some kites if they wriggle out of its grasp, but the rail fit dual repper is way more adaptable, however.
Then just orbit under the rail guns tracking. No web incursus is a failfit whether you fit it with blasters or rails, you'be just traded not being able to keep within optimal with not being able to track what you're shooting. |
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1574
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 15:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sleban wrote:There's an assumption that all dual rep Incursii are using blasters. What happens if the dual repper is using 125mm rails?
You need AB/web to use rails.
Otherwise you will just have a lot of fights where you can't hit ****. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 15:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Gentlemen - I see and accept to a degree the points you're both making about the tracking on rails. But it isn't correct to assume that the tracking on rails, without a web, is so completely bobbins that they don't hit at all or don't do any damage. They do.
And therein lies the tradeoff you make with a dual-rep rail incursus. You are in a marathon, not a sprint. It just takes longer to get the job done. |

Stalking Mantis
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sleban wrote:This is a bit of a theorycrafting battle, but assume, as you suggest, the preferred optimal on both sides is 6km so the Condor can get the neut running nicely.
Here's the incursus fit so you can see what I'm talking about:
3 x 125mm Railgun IIs with CNA.
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Small Capacitor Booster II with Navy Cap Booster 400s
Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Small Armor Repairer II Small Ancilliary Armour Repairer with Nanite
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Nanobot Accelerator I
Hobgoblin II
The Incursus does 112 DPS including the drone with max skills, has EHP of 3440, reps 102.3 EHP per second before the Nanite runs out - and can cap boost 400GJ every 22-23 seconds for 13 rounds - almost precisely 300 seconds.
The Condor does 112 DPS with max skills (assuming faction Scourge rockets), has EHP of 3847.5 and is cap stable at 46.7% even with the neut running. Which is nice.
Condor's shield recharge 16.4 EHP per second, I believe.
Assuming no evasive moves - just standing and blapping at optimal - this gives the incursus about 70-80 seconds of play before the cap starts running out and the shield reppers stop working - although, again, it can quickly reboost once the reloading cycle is complete.
60-70 seconds is more than enough for the incursus to see off the Condor, IMHO. It certainly won't be a pushover for the Condor. But, as always, pilot skill comes into play.
Rails without a web. Condor orbits at 500 meters. Dead Incursus. |

Stalking Mantis
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
351
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Proper Rail Incursus |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1575
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 16:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sleban wrote:Gentlemen - I see and accept to a degree the points you're both making about the tracking on rails. But it isn't correct to assume that the tracking on rails, without a web, is so completely bobbins that they don't hit at all or don't do any damage. They do.
And therein lies the tradeoff you make with a dual-rep rail incursus. You are in a marathon, not a sprint. It just takes longer to get the job done.
They don't.
Stop being bad.
I'm basing that on over 150 kills with an Incursus.
And stalking,
1. Trimark? wtf? bad 2. Needs moar magstab 3. Use an AAR. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
138
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 18:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Dual rep is most useful for hunting larger ratting ships. That's about it. Fit Incursus for speed and deeps or reach and deeps.
Literally everything is useful for hunting larger ratting ships. QCATS is Recruiting: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 22:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:They don't.
Stop being bad.
I'm basing that on over 150 kills with an Incursus.
All joking aside, are you actually seriously suggesting that rails do no damage, at any range, unless your opponent is webbed?
Seriously?
I know they're not "F1 and win" like rockets, but it simply isn't correct that the tracking on rails is so awful that they don't hit against anything other than a static, webbed target. At 500m, agreed, they struggle, but we started this debate talking about 7km as the range at which the repping incursus was going to get owned by rockets. They hit fine at 7km. |

The Lobsters
The Operation
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 00:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
You can kill them eventually with patience, but if you can't be 'effed to waste your life doing it I would,recommend a scram kit arty Rifter. It has enough alpha to smash through the reps and chip away at their hull till they pop. Fitting an LML condor or kestrel for damage can work to. Light missiles have large volley damage. Active tanks hate large volleys.
With a bit of luck they'll burn out a rep.
Neut td plate slasher can pull it off too.
That said, I haven't actually tried this since the rep changes went through. Usually I just warp off from boredom. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1577
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 00:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sleban wrote:Quote:They don't.
Stop being bad.
I'm basing that on over 150 kills with an Incursus. All joking aside, are you actually seriously suggesting that rails do no damage, at any range, unless your opponent is webbed? Seriously? I know they're not "F1 and win" like rockets, but it simply isn't correct that the tracking on rails is so awful that they don't hit against anything other than a static, webbed target. At 500m, agreed, they struggle, but we started this debate talking about 7km as the range at which the repping incursus was going to get owned by rockets. They hit fine at 7km.
and without a web how exactly are you going to keep an opponent from orbiting you close? do tell.
I know that rails hit fine at 7 km.. But you need the web to keep your enemies there. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:and without a web how exactly are you going to keep an opponent from orbiting you close? do tell.
I know that rails hit fine at 7 km.. But you need the web to keep your enemies there.
I'm about to deliver a 'LOL' answer to that, so take it in the spirit in which it is intended....
Easy. Just rep long enough that out of sheer boredom they log off in combat, run out of rockets, or the downtime happens. |
|

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:47:00 -
[41] - Quote
That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1580
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 11:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sleban wrote:Quote:and without a web how exactly are you going to keep an opponent from orbiting you close? do tell.
I know that rails hit fine at 7 km.. But you need the web to keep your enemies there. I'm about to deliver a 'LOL' answer to that, so take it in the spirit in which it is intended.... Easy. Just rep long enough that out of sheer boredom they log off in combat, run out of rockets, or the downtime happens.
0/10 BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Zappity
Kurved Space
595
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sleban wrote:That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to. [Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
Some prefer an adaptive resistance whatsit instead of the plate. You can probably fit 150s if you have good fitting and tracking skills. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1582
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 19:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Sleban wrote:That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to. [Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hobgoblin II x1 Some prefer an adaptive resistance whatsit instead of the plate. You can probably fit 150s if you have good fitting and tracking skills.
Protip
meta 3 dcu. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Zappity
Kurved Space
595
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ooh, that is pro. Good stuff. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |

Taoist Dragon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
641
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bah!
[Incursus, Brawler - Rail]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II
1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
Screw a DCU. You rep armour not hull. Fit real guns and blap the crap out of them before they know what hit them!
160dps at 8.6km range, 175dps tank while paste loaded. Most things just die. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1583
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 20:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Bah!
[Incursus, Brawler - Rail]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II
1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
Screw a DCU. You rep armour not hull. Fit real guns and blap the crap out of them before they know what hit them!
160dps at 8.6km range, 175dps tank while paste loaded. Most things just die.
No DCU?
ohh god..
I have to get Ohm to kick you from corp now...  BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
186
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks |

Yang Aurilen
The Black Talon Training Corp Talons Of Blood
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:07:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks What's wrong with rails? I thought rails were the LML's of hybrid guns and blasters the rocket variant. I've been using missiles and rockets all my life so things like "tracking speed", "transversal velocity", "angular velocity" are alien to me.
Also the rocket condor build that was posted is good. I made one the other day but had to put an ACR rig due to LOLFITTING skills. Also 200mm plate kestrel or 400mm plate kestrel? I made 2 armor kestrels to fight firetails but keeps getting ambushed by condors. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1584
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:09:00 -
[50] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks What's wrong with rails? I thought rails were the LML's of hybrid guns and blasters the rocket variant. I've been using missiles and rockets all my life so things like "tracking speed", "transversal velocity", "angular velocity" are alien to me. Also the rocket condor build that was posted is good. I made one the other day but had to put an ACR rig due to LOLFITTING skills. Also 200mm plate kestrel or 400mm plate kestrel? I made 2 armor kestrels to fight firetails but keeps getting ambushed by condors.
The difference between rails and lml's is that you actually have to pilot your ship to apply dps with railguns
Its not just press f1 and keep away like lml's BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
|

Yang Aurilen
The Black Talon Training Corp Talons Of Blood
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks What's wrong with rails? I thought rails were the LML's of hybrid guns and blasters the rocket variant. I've been using missiles and rockets all my life so things like "tracking speed", "transversal velocity", "angular velocity" are alien to me. Also the rocket condor build that was posted is good. I made one the other day but had to put an ACR rig due to LOLFITTING skills. Also 200mm plate kestrel or 400mm plate kestrel? I made 2 armor kestrels to fight firetails but keeps getting ambushed by condors. The difference between rails and lml's is that you actually have to pilot your ship to apply dps with railguns Its not just press f1 and keep away like lml's So manual piloting or keep at range at x KM? I heard orbiting kills your DPS on turrets. |

Taoist Dragon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
641
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Yang Aurilen wrote:Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:Ib4 someone uses that 150 fit, orbits at 8km, tracks absolutely nothing and then says the fit sucks What's wrong with rails? I thought rails were the LML's of hybrid guns and blasters the rocket variant. I've been using missiles and rockets all my life so things like "tracking speed", "transversal velocity", "angular velocity" are alien to me. Also the rocket condor build that was posted is good. I made one the other day but had to put an ACR rig due to LOLFITTING skills. Also 200mm plate kestrel or 400mm plate kestrel? I made 2 armor kestrels to fight firetails but keeps getting ambushed by condors. The difference between rails and lml's is that you actually have to pilot your ship to apply dps with railguns Its not just press f1 and keep away like lml's So manual piloting or keep at range at x KM? I heard orbiting kills your DPS on turrets.
If you orbit using long range weapons other than LM you are bad and deserve to be killed!
TBH for my incursus (and beam tormentor tbh) I just keep at range at about 7km setting. Most of the time I'm faster/more agile than my opponents plated brawler and just melt them. Works against AF's as well if they are short range brawly fit. Love messing with enyo's who just fit blasters and void (cos OMG THOSE DEEPS!)
I just keep an eye on the combat logs to see what is going on. Then manually fly if I need to manage tracking etc. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 07:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Zappity wrote:Sleban wrote:That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to. [Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hobgoblin II x1 Some prefer an adaptive resistance whatsit instead of the plate. You can probably fit 150s if you have good fitting and tracking skills. Protip meta 3 dcu.
I've spent a lot of time tinkering with the scram kite, so a few more refinements to consider:
- Use the meta 3 X5 Prototype Engine Enervator instead of the Fleeting if you've the CPU skills - uses 1 more CPU to fit but saves you almost a million ISK. - With some of the money you save, fit the Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I to give you that extra few meters of range. - Pseudoelectron Containment Field I instead of the DCII, as suggested. - rigs wise, if you're the fitting skills IMHO the optimum scenario is Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I / Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I (gets the range of Navy antimatter with the 125s up to 7,762m, so you're still at optimal for longer) and, perhaps controversially, Small Anti-Explosive Pump I to fill that hole in your resists. - I prefer the plate on this.
So therefore I consider the absolute final word in 125mm rail 7km AB / scram kite fitting to be this:
[Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
With the skills to fit this, you're looking at EHP 4497 / 166 DPS with overheated guns. Cap lasts 52 seconds with all mods on.
|

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 07:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:So manual piloting or keep at range at x KM? I heard orbiting kills your DPS on turrets.
I also prefer Keep at Range at 7km when using the 7km scram kite incursus. I believe it helps your tracking a small amount, but I also believe it's slightly better than orbitting for keeping the scram / web locked on as with orbiting I find there's some gaffing about where your ship tries to adjust its range first, then gets into the orbit. If you're both AB / Webbed / Scrammed then the likelihood is that you don't need to worry so much about orbiting and your rails are hitting well. Then it usually comes down to your DPS / EHP vs theirs.
Manual piloting is much more useful if you're running an MWD kiting ship with the 24km long point, especially against another kite - typically to get yourself into range (the 'spiralling' technique), and either keep at range or enable yourself to wriggle out with the 'stop start+overheat' technique if things go sour. The benefit of 'speed tanking' - orbiting at speed with the MWD on - I think is pretty much negligible compared to the sig radius increase that makes you more hittable with it on. The only exception is if you're in an interceptor that has reduced sig radius, or a drone kite where you've nothing to lose.
However, it's not easy in a quick frigate fight, so in a kite vs kite scenario where I'm using the WDII with 24km range (Federation Navy Comet being an example) I also prefer keep at range. I tend to do the following:
- set keep at range at 18,000 to 18,500. Enough of a range buffer to keep the point on, but also to keep you out of range of web / scram. - If you're winning the fight, and your opponent starts trying to wriggle out with slingshotting etc, then overheat the long point and consider dropping your keep at range to 15km. A WDII keeps overheated for quite a while and gives you another 4km range. I prefer to heat it half-way throughout a fit anyway as most times people will try and escape.
Although there will no doubt be someone along soon to advise me that I'm talking rubbish, have no idea how to fit or fight and 'manual piloting' at slow speeds is better than keep at range. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1586
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 09:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sleban wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Zappity wrote:Sleban wrote:That link doesn't work for me. Can you transcribe the 'proper' rail fit incursus here? If it's the usual 7km scram web, then probably no need to. [Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Processor Overclocking Unit I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Hobgoblin II x1 Some prefer an adaptive resistance whatsit instead of the plate. You can probably fit 150s if you have good fitting and tracking skills. Protip meta 3 dcu. I've spent a lot of time tinkering with the scram kite, so a few more refinements to consider: - Use the meta 3 X5 Prototype Engine Enervator instead of the Fleeting if you've the CPU skills - uses 1 more CPU to fit but saves you almost a million ISK. - With some of the money you save, fit the Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I to give you that extra few meters of range. - Pseudoelectron Containment Field I instead of the DCII, as suggested. - rigs wise, if you're the fitting skills IMHO the optimum scenario is Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I / Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I (gets the range of Navy antimatter with the 125s up to 7,762m, so you're still at optimal for longer) and, perhaps controversially, Small Anti-Explosive Pump I to fill that hole in your resists. - I prefer the plate on this. So therefore I consider the absolute final word in 125mm rail 7km AB / scram kite fitting to be this: [Incursus, 125mm] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x1 With the skills to fit this, you're looking at EHP 4497 / 166 DPS with overheated guns. Cap lasts 52 seconds with all mods on.
Ok lets have some more pro tips from me then
1. x5 uses less cpu than fleeting not more. 2. jb5 for life 3. Collision is better on this, alpha so nice. 4. keep at range should be the default thing to use in it, along with some manual piloting and the occasional align out and overheat everything (Useful against daredevils) BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Sleban
Pole Shift Incorporated
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 11:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Quote:1. x5 uses less cpu than fleeting not more.
You're right. I stand corrected. I had always assumed it used more. Fleeting does generate an extra 2% of velocity reduction, but I suppose that's hardly worth sweating for the extra million the Fleeting costs above the X5.
It's cheaper, aye, but the extra 375m reach of Faint Epsilon is worth the additional cash, IMHO. Plus it uses 3GJ of cap every 5s, compared to 3.75GJ for the J5b.
Quote:3. Collision is better on this, alpha so nice.
Considering my original fit, and with guns overheated, the stats with either are:
Burst: 146DPS / volley 317 every 1.63 seconds / cap lasts 56s with all the relevant mods active.
Collision: 145DPS / volley 337 every 1.78 seconds / cap lasts 58s.
Alpha is nice if you're going to be one or two shotting something. With volleys of 337, though, not likely to happen.
Burst gives you 34 volleys before cap runs out = 10,788 damage
Collision gives you 32 = 10,784 damage.
Not a massive amount in it over the long haul, although burst gives you that extra volley every 10 volleys compared to Collision.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1587
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sleban wrote:Quote:1. x5 uses less cpu than fleeting not more. You're right. I stand corrected. I had always assumed it used more. Fleeting does generate an extra 2% of velocity reduction, but I suppose that's hardly worth sweating for the extra million the Fleeting costs above the X5. It's cheaper, aye, but the extra 375m reach of Faint Epsilon is worth the additional cash, IMHO. Plus it uses 3GJ of cap every 5s, compared to 3.75GJ for the J5b. Quote:3. Collision is better on this, alpha so nice. Considering my original fit, and with guns overheated, the stats with either are: Burst: 146DPS / volley 317 every 1.63 seconds / cap lasts 56s with all the relevant mods active. Collision: 145DPS / volley 337 every 1.78 seconds / cap lasts 58s. Alpha is nice if you're going to be one or two shotting something. With volleys of 337, though, not likely to happen. Burst gives you 34 volleys before cap runs out = 10,788 damage Collision gives you 32 = 10,784 damage. Not a massive amount in it over the long haul, although burst gives you that extra volley every 10 volleys compared to Collision.
pro tip 343. J5B FOR LIFE. pro tip 243553. Calculating how many shots you have before your cap runs out is absolutely pointless.
Also the burst/collision thing is just a matter of preference, i just like collision :P BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

The Lobsters
The Operation
45
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:10:00 -
[58] - Quote
[quote=Sleban]Quote:
Not a massive amount in it over the long haul, although burst gives you that extra volley every 10 volleys compared to Collision.
The burst also decreases your overheat time, your guns will burn out quicker than the collision guy. That can be important in a frig fight. That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim. |

Zappity
Kurved Space
597
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
The increased volley damage is useful for breaking through active tanks. It chips just that bit more of the hull away every time.
I like the extra 2.5% velocity reduction of the meta 4 web. Think about speed in terms of an overheated prop mod and the amount becomes significant. Especially if you (or your opponent) is using blasters or 150 autos. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
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