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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some contents of the leaked Highlander document have been released.
Interesting. It's a mild word, for a mild thing: of course the Federation has intelligence assets in the State. Similarly, of course the State has intelligence assets in the Federation. This isn't news.
What is news is that infiltration to higher levels of the State's management occurred. That represents a clear counterintelligence failure, which should result in investigation and an improvement of security procedures. Anyone who knowingly or maliciously contributed to this infiltration should be charged-- with espionage at the least, and treason at the worst.
That said, I very much doubt that the Federation Senate can rightfully lay claim to Heth's downfall. It-- it sounds like so much grandstanding by self-important politicians, who want dearly to have their name on events, to have credit for something that is not theirs to claim.
In any case, interesting. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1196
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wonder how long before the Provists cry out that Heth's removal was a Federal conspiracy and demand his reinstation... Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2301
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Disturbing, to say the least, but not unexpected. I concur with your sentiments, Priano.
I suppose now that the Senate is claiming responsibility for destabilizing and ousting Heth, we'll have plenty of Federal capsuleers change their tune of song to match and begin claiming the like. That should be amusing to watch. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2010
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Heth was removed by the State, not by the Federation. I think most in the State would rather die than ever admit the Federation could gain that much influence over us - fortunately it is easy to see which decisions of Heth's led to his removal.
As for ANY who had a part in providing Intel that helped Operation Highlander. They're traitors. They contributed directly to the death of Admiral Visera Yanala, the destruction of the Shiigeru and the deaths of all those Navy ratings and capsuleer crews. I would take a great deal of interest in their future careers, be they ever so brief. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2976
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yes yes hail the great Senators who sat on their ass while bringing Heth down. Woohoo yay Federation...
Gimme a ******* break. The Caldari cleaned their house, that's it. We didn't do **** to help that.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed, Tuulinen-haan. Traitors to the State should be punished-- and, to be honest, the only suitable punishment is death and seizure of assets.
My only concern: even if State intelligence agencies should acquire a full copy of the Operation Highlander document, said documents should be treated with supreme suspicion toward their contents. I would not put it past Blacque to use the leak as a way to smear loyal citizens, hoping that our anger against traitors results in blame against those who are blameless. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
333
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 19:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Scope wrote: ...It does refer to several GÇ£less valuable assetsGÇ¥ that remain within the megacorps, Caldari Navy, and State Protectorate.
Emphasis mine.
As far as I'm aware, there's more spies in Militia's these days then in the CFC. Also, in before implications Diana Kim is a deep undercover Gallente agent trying to make the State look bad. |

Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1242
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 20:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Those "high-level megacorp executives" did not like Heth to a such extent that they had to work with the Federation intelligence or maby thats part of there loyalty to the State as they saw him as a threat.
Also the title states "widespread spying" but the article says only of spying against a state with whom we are in a state of a proxy war, so it's invalid, if not im waiting for more revelations. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2010
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 20:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
I do not, in the slightest, hold it against the Federation that they gathered intelligence in this way. We do the same to them, after all.
Let me reiterate that it is against those who are State citizens that my anger is directed. |

Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1541
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 21:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
How dare the Federation use espionage to gather information on our enemies! It's not like the State once convinced a high ranking admiral to hand them all information on our defenses and nearly cost us our home system!
Oh wait...
But seriously, Heth wanted to play the cloak and dagger game, and so we not only played with him, but we won. Game, set, match.
As for helping to take down Heth, it's a little wishy washy. Federal assistance or not, it's the Caldari people that brought down that pyscho. His actions regarding the Battle of Caldari Prime would of been seen as unforgivable and abhorrent whether we were nudging people to believe it or not. However, it's probably safe to say that Federal agents did offer some support. We certainly weren't directly responsible, but we probably did help a little bit. Things like spreading anti-provist sentiment in the Caldari media, pushing Patriot Bloc corporations such as Kaalakoita to stop supporting Heth. I'm sure we helped in that way.
But again, no matter how you look at it, it's the Caldari that are responsible for Heth's demise. This isn't even a "behind the scenes puppet master" type thing either. The State and it's people made the conscience decision to remove him from power. All the infiltration and espionage in the world would not have done the job, unless we somehow got a Black Eagles agent on the CEP or something idiotic like that.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
566
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
The Senate isn't claiming any sort of credit whatsoever, especially that they suffered an embarrassment from losing the document almost two months ago. I don't know where people are deriving that idea from.
Pretty sure the Federation publics would find any sort of assertion to that end highly amusing.
At any rate, the potency of the Gallentean intelligence regime shows itself. |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:How dare the Federation use espionage to gather information on our enemies! It's not like the State once convinced a high ranking admiral to hand them all information on our defenses and nearly cost us our home system!
Fredfred, I don't think a single person in this discussion has so far reacted to the disclosure of Federation spying with anything but, "Well, obviously."
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:The Senate isn't claiming any sort of credit whatsoever, I don't know where people are deriving that from.
Scope news article wrote:The released information claims several high-level megacorp executives had been compromised by intelligence operatives, contributing to the destabilization of the Heth regime prior to the attack on Caldari Prime.
It would be reasonable for the Senate to assert that Federation intelligence operatives had destabilized the situation on Caldari Prime; to destabilize the Heth government is rather a different matter. Either way, it would seem that the Senate as a proxy for the Federation government is claiming that a Federation government entity contributed directly to Heth's fall. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation
561
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: That said, I very much doubt that the Federation Senate can rightfully lay claim to Heth's downfall.
Did the good Senators "lay claim to Heth's downfall"? Lets read the announcement again; "contributing to the destabilization of the Heth regime prior to the attack on Caldari Prime."
Katrina Oniseki wrote:I suppose now that the Senate is claiming responsibility for destabilizing and ousting Heth, Once again, let us read the announcement, slower this time; "contributing to the destabilization of the Heth regime prior to the attack on Caldari Prime."
Forgive me but the facts, as I understand them, support their assertion. regardless of how such a stunning intelligence failure must undermine your self inflicted cult of merit.
But then we should remember diminishing your foes role, makes denial so much easier.
Not that I am complaining, denial is often a friend. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Perhaps, Mr. Syagrius, I overstate the repudiation. Still, the Senate surely overstates the Federation's role in matters. While obviously Heth would not have fallen as quickly without Highlander, the Federation's intelligence efforts were not a primary cause of Heth's fall. That is what irks me. Direct contribution is assuming a degree of credit.
Perhaps this is disdain for the Gallente political system speaking, but I can only imagine a group of political hacks in some locked committee room, chortling as they claim to have bested Heth and to be the reason why he was in Black Rise to be captured by, well-- whomever. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1541
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 22:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:
Fredfred, I don't think a single person in this discussion has so far reacted to the disclosure of Federation spying with anything but, "Well, obviously."
It was mostly a comment left ahead of time, just in case. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
568
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Still, the Senate surely overstates the Federation's role in matters.
Please identify where the Federation Senate is stating anything at all. |

Vikarion
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
657
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 00:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Anyone who has aided the Federation or its agencies, from CEO to janitor, should be shot, their assets seized, and their family dismissed and barred from further employment in the State. |

Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3542
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'll say only this: I'm usually sympathetic to Caldari causes.
But your nation declared war on ours, invaded our space, not the other way around - and forget the justifications or the casus belli, that's the way it happened. If it somehow comes as some sort of shock to you that the nation with the largest foreign intelligence agency in the world put in a hell of a lot of work running interference against a country ruled by a tyrant with delusions of genocide who broke every treaty his country ever signed to fight a war against us - well, then I'd say you have very little understanding of the way the world works.
Believe what you want to believe, criticise what you want to criticise. The Federation's not just going to lie down for any two-bit MTAC operator who wants to murder our citizens. Mane 614
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3542
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Wonder how long before the Provists cry out that Heth's removal was a Federal conspiracy and demand his reinstation... Oh, I'm sorry, have you been absent for the last few months? Because they were doing that from the second the CEP denounced him. Mane 614
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Makoto Priano wrote:Still, the Senate surely overstates the Federation's role in matters. Please identify where the Federation Senate is stating anything at all.
The release in question was, if I'm not mistaken, from a leaked Senate report. So-- really now. Inhonores, I know you love splitting hairs, but really. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
568
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 01:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nope. It's a leaked report. There is no statement from the Senate on this matter.
Let me spell it out. It's a report to the Senate from the Federal Intelligence Office. The Senate does not control the FIO; that's the role of the executive. However, it does have oversight over Gallente intelligence assets, but it's common knowledge the FIO hides the vast majority of its activities from legislature purview. Operational security, and all that.
This is the FIO claiming a contribution to Heth's downfall, not the Senate. |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
875
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 02:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
One could also take the view that the leaking of this report is not a leak at all but a well designed active measure of misinformation to lower confidence in corporate leadership in the State.
In the end, the Federation did not destroy Tibus Heth. Tibus Heth destroyed Tibus Heth.
I suppose this is just one more confirmation of what is already known: the Federation continues its campaigns of political espionage abroad. Much the same how State corporate competitive intelligence assets continue their own campaigns of economic and industrial espionage abroad. At least with them, we can still continue to neither confirm nor deny that technological secrets are being stolen and foreign companies seized in the name of Caldari interests. |

TomHorn
Join The Dark Side Join The Empire
112
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 02:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Heth continaully questioned the actions of some of the Mega Corporations decisions as being in the best interests of the State. He even went as far as to call some executives as traitors, and was one of the reasons for Heth's vision of a single solidified State.
With this document finally coming to light his suspicions are now finally to be proved right.
But the names have not yet come to light, but it can only be a matter of time. These high-level megacorp executives must surely know the game is up and should now hand themselves in and face the justice they deserve. Mens Reppola is one name we believe to be on that document. Demand his arrest on grounds of treason. We wil be sending forces to Ishukone headquarters Malkalen to monitor the situation there.
Quote:Anyone who has aided the Federation or its agencies, from CEO to janitor, should be shot, their assets seized, and their family dismissed and barred from further employment in the State.
I agree wholeheartedly with Vikarion sentiments on this matter.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2012
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 02:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I'll say only this: I'm usually sympathetic to Caldari causes.
But your nation declared war on ours, invaded our space, not the other way around - and forget the justifications or the casus belli, that's the way it happened. If it somehow comes as some sort of shock to you that the nation with the largest foreign intelligence agency in the world put in a hell of a lot of work running interference against a country ruled by a tyrant with delusions of genocide who broke every treaty his country ever signed to fight a war against us - well, then I'd say you have very little understanding of the way the world works.
Believe what you want to believe, criticise what you want to criticise. The Federation's not just going to lie down for any two-bit MTAC operator who wants to murder our citizens.
I have said it before and I will say it again, as often as it needs to be repeated. ANY discussion of who was in the right and who was in the wrong regarding our return to Caldari Prime that does NOT start with your Federation's decision that it can abandon any of it's high and mighty founding principles whenever expedient, practice collective punishment, attempt genocide and then drive a planetary population into a reckless diaspora halfway across the Cluster is a nonsense. You do NOT get to say that our REASONS don't matter - they mattered very much to us and if our return should have taught you ANYTHING it is that what matters to one side can be made to matter to the other too.
Nobody has criticised the Federation for practising espionage. I know you'd love us to do so, because it would mean you could lambast us as the worst kind of hypocrites. The only venom in this thread has been directed at those citizens of the STATE who took your filthy traitor's money. |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5126
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 02:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Nope. It's a leaked report. There is no statement from the Senate on this matter.
Let me spell it out. It's a report to the Senate from the Federal Intelligence Office. The Senate does not control the FIO; that's the role of the executive. However, it does have oversight over Gallente intelligence assets, but it's common knowledge the FIO hides the vast majority of its activities from legislature purview. Operational security, and all that.
This is the FIO claiming a contribution to Heth's downfall, not the Senate.
Incorrect. We have no information on who compiled the dossier. Therefore, it is as likely a Senate document as a FIO document. You are spelling nothing.
That said, if the FIO is hiding its activities from governmental oversight, that means wonderful things for your vaunted democracy, Inhonores.
Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |

Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
1541
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 03:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I have said it before and I will say it again, as often as it needs to be repeated. ANY discussion of who was in the right and who was in the wrong regarding our return to Caldari Prime that does NOT start with your Federation's decision that it can abandon any of it's high and mighty founding principles whenever expedient, practice collective punishment, attempt genocide and then drive a planetary population into a reckless diaspora halfway across the Cluster is a nonsense. You do NOT get to say that our REASONS don't matter - they mattered very much to us and if our return should have taught you ANYTHING it is that what matters to one side can be made to matter to the other too.
People seem to forget that most Federal citizens, civillian, government, and military, were appalled by the actions of the Ultra-Nationalist. Hell, we even put all those responsible on trial.
Luminate Era of the Gallente Federation wrote:The Federation public and sub-leaders found the actions atrocious and appalling, considering the bombardment a disproportionate response to Nouvelle Rouvenor...
The Ultra-Nationalist regime started to get paranoid of conspirators against them. The population was getting restless over the continued martial law and suspension of the Federal Charter and Constitution. The Federation military was forced to withdraw from occupied worlds and redeploy to Caldari Prime, meaning that the authoritarian grip on those planets was loosened. Anti-war protests began to erupt in locales where the Federation had withdrawn, or places that it had little presence to begin with, such as Intaki. Instability was looking to return as quickly as its gunpoint opposite had been established....
With the heavy weight of authoritarianism lifted, voices began to emerge that would have been labelled dissident or traitorous under the previous government. While they still saw the Caldari as selfish and prideful, they nonetheless saw the Ultra-Nationalists as far more criminal than the Caldari could ever be. They vehemently disagreed with the bombardment of Caldari Prime, even going as far as to call it an attempt at genocide, and saw Duvailer and his irk as tyrants that must be punished for their actions in ruling the Federation. President Yiona was in sympathy with these individuals. The Ultra-Nationalists were outlawed and, within the military establishment, senior officers who were associated with the party were stripped off their command. This was not enough to please the masses, however. Duvailer and all his associates, both military and civilian, were arrested, to be put on trial by a special tribunal.
The tribunal was to be held in the partially-reconstructed city of Tovil, mostly as a symbolic gesture. On the tribunalGÇÖs staff included the President herself and various other high-ranking Federal politicians. The Ultra-Nationalist leadership included Luc Duvailer, former members of his cabinet, advisors, and ex-officers from the Federation military command at the time. They were charged with gross incompetence, failures of leadership, corruption, violations of Federal Law, and crimes against humanity.
This isn't an attempt to shift the blame to someone else or try to lessen the severity of our actions. We know our actions are unforgivable and we can't blame you for holding a grudge. It's easy for us to suddenly start advocating for peace because we didn't lose anything comparable to what your nation lost. We understand that.
However, at the very least, acknowledge that we were trying to mend things between our people and our nations for a century before Heth stormed in. We started the last war, we've taken responsibility for it. Will the State do the same for this war? That remains to be decided. Though the fact that Heth is out of power yet we still remain at war suggests something is going on, between one or both of us. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
875
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 03:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Though the fact that Heth is out of power yet we still remain at war suggests something is going on, between one or both of us.
Could be that whole meddling in State internal affairs through political espionage as the Highlander documents outline and confirm, conducted by an FIO director such as Mentas Blaque, an avowed Gallentean nationalist who in turn serves the Roden Administration whose President is in the armaments manufacture industry and might have a vested interest in prolonging the war as long as possible for his own gain both financially and politically.
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Texcoyo
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
7
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 08:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
There's a war on. Of course there's going to be a lot of espionage, backdoor deals, profit, grandstanding and propaganda. Wither or not the documents outline true or false statements, both sides will exploit any means possible to achieve victory in a war that has no forseeable end, as long as capsuleers lead the front lines.
So until the war is ended, we continue to make big Caldari ships into little Caldari ships(components).
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
881
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 09:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Texcoyo wrote: So until the war is ended, we continue to make big Caldari ships into little Caldari ships(components).
Knowing the State Protectorate these days the majority of components you'll get are cloaking devices and warp core stabilizers.
It is only the strength of the State economy that can turn hordes of two week capsuleer graduates into overnight billionaires.
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Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
884
|
Posted - 2013.10.25 09:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:What is news is that infiltration to higher levels of the State's management occurred. That represents a clear counterintelligence failure, which should result in investigation and an improvement of security procedures.
I don't think we have enough details to draw that conclusion.
For one thing, DCI might let a known agent operate for years in order to observe their communications, feed them false information, or map out their associates and operating procedures.
For a second thing, we don't know how many of those high level executives are working with State intelligence.
For a third thing, it's very likely that any Federation report would emphasize or exaggerate their success. How many is 'several?' 200? 75? 15?
Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |
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