...It does refer to several GÇ£less valuable assetsGÇ¥ that remain within the megacorps, Caldari Navy, and State Protectorate.

How dare the Federation use espionage to gather information on our enemies! It's not like the State once convinced a high ranking admiral to hand them all information on our defenses and nearly cost us our home system!

The Senate isn't claiming any sort of credit whatsoever, I don't know where people are deriving that from.

The released information claims several high-level megacorp executives had been compromised by intelligence operatives, contributing to the destabilization of the Heth regime prior to the attack on Caldari Prime.

That said, I very much doubt that the Federation Senate can rightfully lay claim to Heth's downfall.

I suppose now that the Senate is claiming responsibility for destabilizing and ousting Heth,

Fredfred, I don't think a single person in this discussion has so far reacted to the disclosure of Federation spying with anything but, "Well, obviously."

Still, the Senate surely overstates the Federation's role in matters.

Wonder how long before the Provists cry out that Heth's removal was a Federal conspiracy and demand his reinstation...

Please identify where the Federation Senate is stating anything at all.

Anyone who has aided the Federation or its agencies, from CEO to janitor, should be shot, their assets seized, and their family dismissed and barred from further employment in the State.

I'll say only this: I'm usually sympathetic to Caldari causes.

But your nation declared war on ours, invaded our space, not the other way around - and forget the justifications or the casus belli, that's the way it happened. If it somehow comes as some sort of shock to you that the nation with the largest foreign intelligence agency in the world put in a hell of a lot of work running interference against a country ruled by a tyrant with delusions of genocide who broke every treaty his country ever signed to fight a war against us - well, then I'd say you have very little understanding of the way the world works.

Believe what you want to believe, criticise what you want to criticise. The Federation's not just going to lie down for any two-bit MTAC operator who wants to murder our citizens.

Nope. It's a leaked report. There is no statement from the Senate on this matter.

Let me spell it out. It's a report to the Senate from the Federal Intelligence Office. The Senate does not control the FIO; that's the role of the executive. However, it does have oversight over Gallente intelligence assets, but it's common knowledge the FIO hides the vast majority of its activities from legislature purview. Operational security, and all that.

This is the FIO claiming a contribution to Heth's downfall, not the Senate.

I have said it before and I will say it again, as often as it needs to be repeated. ANY discussion of who was in the right and who was in the wrong regarding our return to Caldari Prime that does NOT start with your Federation's decision that it can abandon any of it's high and mighty founding principles whenever expedient, practice collective punishment, attempt genocide and then drive a planetary population into a reckless diaspora halfway across the Cluster is a nonsense. You do NOT get to say that our REASONS don't matter - they mattered very much to us and if our return should have taught you ANYTHING it is that what matters to one side can be made to matter to the other too.

The Federation public and sub-leaders found the actions atrocious and appalling, considering the bombardment a disproportionate response to Nouvelle Rouvenor...

---

The Ultra-Nationalist regime started to get paranoid of conspirators against them. The population was getting restless over the continued martial law and suspension of the Federal Charter and Constitution. The Federation military was forced to withdraw from occupied worlds and redeploy to Caldari Prime, meaning that the authoritarian grip on those planets was loosened. Anti-war protests began to erupt in locales where the Federation had withdrawn, or places that it had little presence to begin with, such as Intaki. Instability was looking to return as quickly as its gunpoint opposite had been established....

---

With the heavy weight of authoritarianism lifted, voices began to emerge that would have been labelled dissident or traitorous under the previous government. While they still saw the Caldari as selfish and prideful, they nonetheless saw the Ultra-Nationalists as far more criminal than the Caldari could ever be. They vehemently disagreed with the bombardment of Caldari Prime, even going as far as to call it an attempt at genocide, and saw Duvailer and his irk as tyrants that must be punished for their actions in ruling the Federation. President Yiona was in sympathy with these individuals. The Ultra-Nationalists were outlawed and, within the military establishment, senior officers who were associated with the party were stripped off their command. This was not enough to please the masses, however. Duvailer and all his associates, both military and civilian, were arrested, to be put on trial by a special tribunal.

The tribunal was to be held in the partially-reconstructed city of Tovil, mostly as a symbolic gesture. On the tribunalGÇÖs staff included the President herself and various other high-ranking Federal politicians. The Ultra-Nationalist leadership included Luc Duvailer, former members of his cabinet, advisors, and ex-officers from the Federation military command at the time. They were charged with gross incompetence, failures of leadership, corruption, violations of Federal Law, and crimes against humanity.

Though the fact that Heth is out of power yet we still remain at war suggests something is going on, between one or both of us.

So until the war is ended, we continue to make big Caldari ships into little Caldari ships(components).

What is news is that infiltration to higher levels of the State's management occurred. That represents a clear counterintelligence failure, which should result in investigation and an improvement of security procedures.

a second thing, we don't know how many of those high level executives are working with State intelligence.

For a third thing, it's very likely that any Federation report would emphasize or exaggerate their success. How many is 'several?' 200? 75? 15?

Oh, I'm sorry, have you been absent for the last few months? Because they were doing that from the second the CEP denounced him.

As to all of this, there's just far too many false flag potential scenarios in all of this, and considering how Blaque and the FIO operates, I wouldn't be surprised if any, and all, were true.


GÇóWas this report ever really lost, or was it "released" under a false pretence that it was leaked, with the appropriate dramatic response to make it more realistic?


GÇóAre there really agents or sources of information, at any tier, within the State; or are they hoping to create instability when the knee jerk reaction is to have a witch hunt come wild goose chase?


GÇóWas this all just a really good excuse to do a full shakedown on the Scope, for other articles they're more interested in?


Again, this is Blaque, play all the angles, because he's probably thought of them all first.

I never had you down as a conspiracy theorist Marellus.

One is too many.

I have said it before and I will say it again, as often as it needs to be repeated. ANY discussion of who was in the right and who was in the wrong regarding our return to Caldari Prime that does NOT start with your Federation's decision that it can abandon any of it's high and mighty founding principles whenever expedient, practice collective punishment, attempt genocide and then drive a planetary population into a reckless diaspora halfway across the Cluster is a nonsense. You do NOT get to say that our REASONS don't matter - they mattered very much to us and if our return should have taught you ANYTHING it is that what matters to one side can be made to matter to the other too.

Nobody has criticised the Federation for practising espionage. I know you'd love us to do so, because it would mean you could lambast us as the worst kind of hypocrites. The only venom in this thread has been directed at those citizens of the STATE who took your filthy traitor's money.

Pots and kettles. The State did exactly the same thing when it decided to break all its treaties a few years back.

But like the Federation, was it really abandonning their mighty founding principles, in both cases ?

Some contents of the leaked Highlander document have been released.

Interesting. It's a mild word, for a mild thing: of course the Federation has intelligence assets in the State. Similarly, of course the State has intelligence assets in the Federation. This isn't news.

What is news is that infiltration to higher levels of the State's management occurred. That represents a clear counterintelligence failure, which should result in investigation and an improvement of security procedures. Anyone who knowingly or maliciously contributed to this infiltration should be charged-- with espionage at the least, and treason at the worst.

That said, I very much doubt that the Federation Senate can rightfully lay claim to Heth's downfall. It-- it sounds like so much grandstanding by self-important politicians, who want dearly to have their name on events, to have credit for something that is not theirs to claim.

In any case, interesting.

You do NOT get to say that our REASONS don't matter - they mattered very much to us and if our return should have taught you ANYTHING it is that what matters to one side can be made to matter to the other too.

I'll assume that you missed the part where the State's motto for two centuries was 'Hakkinen K'len' or 'We will return'.

If you were actually surprised that we repudiated it at the first opportunity then you deserved everything you got.

What was disappointing was that armed struggle was the only way to make the Federation listen to us. Now they've seen that we can both negotiate and fight, hopefully we can stick with negotiating.

Did you expect us to send you our fleet comp too? Any other information we could share, just to be friendly.

Be honest. Those five years and that titan were the price of you taking us seriously. Well, we paid it.

What do you mean ?

I mean that the Federation never had any intention of discussing Caldari Prime until we made that discussion necessary. That they assumed our attachment to our Home was some sort of 'cute' cultural eccentricity that they could afford to ignore.

This warm feeling lasted roughly as long as it took us to blast our way to the Luminaire system and park two and a half billion kilos of war machine in orbit around Home. Say what you like about that decision - it was illegal, it did breach an extant treaty - if there was an alternative strategy that could have resulted in the treaty that is now a reality, I'd like to hear it.

Not only did the Federation invite the invasion of the Luminaire system, by their inaction they demanded it.

Unfortunately, whilst Heth was the right leader to make that initial move he proved to be the wrong leader to come to terms with the Federation afterwards - so we wound up with five years of blockade and a battle that could not be won by either side, only lost by both.

It was your invasion of Luminaire that forced the negotiations, but do you believe your nation or at the very least, Heth, truly exhausted every possible option available? I feel that as the Federation became less militant and more peaceful following the Gallente-Caldari war, the State became more aggressive and war hungry.

Perhaps we simply became less patient, Fred.

In any case, Luminaire is now secure, Caldari Prime is partitioned in a way that at least promises to try to be equitable and Heth has shuffled off the political stage.

Your own compatriats can list plenty of reasons why the option of negotiating Caldari Prime's sovereignity was never an option for the Federation. Generations of Federal citizens living there, its location in a Federation core system, the fact that Cal-Gal relations even in those days were chilled, and that negotiating what we wanted was political suicide for Federal elected representatives of the people. Knowing the democratic process, the voting citizens needed good reason to accept the loss of their homes to the Caldari under a transfer agreement.

Multiple diplomatic attempts were made by various means and megacorporations over the years, but none of them could come even remotely close to negotiating the sovereignty of Caldari Prime. Those options were simply never offered or on the table from the Federation's viewpoint. Under no circumstances was the Federation willing to consider anything other Federation sovereignty and administration of Caldari Prime. Expecting the Federation to hand over Caldari Prime is, in their eyes, the same as asking for a system in Villore, or Dodixie, or Bourynes, or any other major system. The Federation did not care that it is our homeworld. There was no reasonable difference to them. So each time the topic came up, it would be turned down flatly at best, or cause for an immediate end of diplomatic credibility at worst.

We of course did not exhaust literally every option available, but neither did the Federation ever seriously considering giving Home back to us. Even those few who did were simply outvoted through the democratic process. The Federation saw Caldari Prime as their territory, with very very few exceptions. What we wanted was not acceptable.

I dare say the current compromised situation wouldn't be acceptable in a time of peace either. The only reason the Federation accepted the current outcome is because of the proven threat of yet more violence. Without such bloodshed in recent memory, how many Senators would vote to hand over even part of one of their central worlds to their old enemy? How many did, in the years preceding 110? Few, I imagine. I believe they only did so now because the citizens of your nation demanded an end to hostilities at their doorsteps.

I don't mean to grandstand or make wild threats. No threats at all here. I'm simply stating that it was a non-reality to expect what we have now through diplomacy. It was a pipe-dream at best.

The problem with the "negotiations" is that neither of us were willing to compromise. The suggestion to share the planet didn't come about until after the battle. Did you really expect us to give you the entire planet? A planet that we've invested so much labor and capital into after the first war?

Our demands were unreasonable, and so were yours. Just keep in mind that the State was trying to obtain (regain) the planet from the Federation, not the otherway around. You were coming to us with the offers, if your offer is unreasonable, then it's rejected on the spot.

Perhaps we simply became less patient, Fred.

In any case, Luminaire is now secure, Caldari Prime is partitioned in a way that at least promises to try to be equitable and Heth has shuffled off the political stage.

I don't mean to grandstand or make wild threats. No threats at all here. I'm simply stating that it was a non-reality to expect what we have now through diplomacy. It was a pipe-dream at best.

I am pleased to see you come closer to reality with your statements. You admit that both sides were demanding unreasonable things, and neither side was willing to compromise. Perhaps now you can step away from the ignorant accusation that all options had not been exhausted.

Compromise was not an option.

It is only an option now for the Federation due to the threat of more bloodshed.
It is only an option now for the State due to the threat of losing Home a second time.

Nothing to see here. I'm hardly surprised to see one of the limitless federal attempts of influencing other sovereign nations unveiled. After all, isn't this what they've been accused of since the very beginning of this little conflict?

As one who graduated during his tenure, would you mind elaborating on just what you're implying about me?

No, it's what they've been accused of ever since they made contact with planets not their own.

The only concession I see is that you seem to use that recent fad consisting to call Caldari Prime / Luminaire VII, "Home". Which is a trend I usually associate with Provist propaganda, since it has emerged at the same time.

If I may say so.... I hope that does not offend you.

Yes, damn those people for lifting your ancestors off the dirt and helping them spread across space, what were they thinking?

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.

Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.

Yes! Let's ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their cultural erasure. In particular, perhaps we could ask the city-dwelling Ni-Kunni.

Oh wait.

I'm not sure if our ancestors believed us to be living 'in the dirt' at the time, sir, or that we so desperately needed uplifting. Thank you for your friendship at the time, though, whatever your intentions may have been.

I cannot thank you for 'spreading us across space', however, given the circumstances that brought about our diaspora. Perhaps you meant something other than the flight of refugees, but it's hard to think of anything else.

Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.

Hypothetical arguments are always fantastic when you don't want to discuss actual history, eh?

It's just nice to remind these people that for all their endless, non constructive criticism of the Federation, they should count their blessings, when you look into the hypothetical of "what could have been" I'd say those days were a rather favourable outcome for the Caldari.

Amusing that you speak of history and yet cannot differentiate between the Federation and the Gallenteans that actually did make first contact with the Caldari.

Of course, if you were to go back with hindsight, I'm not entirely sure history would repeat itself, but that's a criticism of the modern Federation and the people who run it today, and a lot fairer than the one aimed at a more idealistic and progressive people who stuck to the core values of the society they represented.

It does surprise me, though it does not offend me. It is, without contest, the homeworld of my people. It stands to reason then that the affectionate appellation of "Home" be applied to our homeworld. I see nothing in-congruent about assigning special status and nomenclature to the planet where all Caldari can trace their roots.

Just because something started with the Provists does not necessarily make it bad.

It's no surprise that a race that had to fight it's way up from the snows of Home was a little bit slower at technological development than a race that comes from a 'shirtsleeves' planet, is it?

I think the Caldari and Gallente did some excellent work together, in the early days, it's just a shame that they insist all their partners submit to the process of becoming exactly like them.

It was a good deal, until it wasn't. There should always be room to get out of a bad deal.

Ah, but there WAS a way out of that, Lyn. At least two that I can think of and the Federation picked the harder of the two.

Yeah you're right, I think they're completely the same..

Because I know someone's going to twist this, I don't mean counting their blessings as if they should suddenly and overdramatically be praising and owing their existence to the Federation. Just appreciate the situation could have been a lot worse considering the defenceless state of the Caldari at the time.

Wonder how long before the Provists cry out that Heth's removal was a Federal conspiracy and demand his reinstation...

There was, Pieter. It is called secession.

They didn't like that.

That wasn't seceding, it was starting a civil war precipitated by your people's duplicity.

That wasn't seceding, it was starting a civil war precipitated by your people's duplicity.

That wasn't seceding, it was starting a civil war precipitated by your people's duplicity.

Sure it wasn't a brutal war of opression started by your people's micromanaging insecurity?

That wasn't seceding, it was starting a civil war precipitated by your people's duplicity.

Your words reek of hypocrisy and irony.

Perhaps you shouldn't stick your nose in the affairs of others when you cannot stomach the same in yours.



Her people are Minmatar. They were not present during this timeline.

I thought Anabella was Gallente, originally?

Emphasis mine.

I'd say the Federation was non-existent when first contact between Caldari and Gallente was made, so why even bring it up? If any thanks were to be given it would be to the political entities that did in fact exist at the time which does not include the Federation.

That wasn't seceding, it was starting a civil war precipitated by your people's duplicity.

There is little profit in this idle vitriol.

Gallentine friends: please allow us the time to find those who have betrayed our Fleets and Home. If you have the ability and desire, please secret them away to new lives within your Federation if you prefer - they will no doubt meet warmer reception there than here.

Otherwise, congratulations on the success of your intelligence efforts! We will learn well from this experience.

GÇïAn excellent point.

The howls of indignation that followed your very insightful statement demonstrate how very close to the truth you came.

There is little profit in this idle vitriol.

GÇïI agree. I have read several past postings that encouraged peace from many of those contending against each other in this discussion. I encourage each participants to consider the cost of idle insult to what I hope is the common cause of all people of good will, peace.GÇï So I implore you to let the potential future of our two cultures not be decided by the bitterness of our common past.

Some of us waited for him to betray his growing madness before turning on him. It is no easy thing to turn on your own government, you know? Certainly a simple disagreement on policy is not sufficient motivation.

As contrary to what most of the State immortals and corporate elite would love to believe, Heth filled a void in so many Caldari people. This filled void allowed for justified hate (as contrary to what many of the Federation immortals would love to believe) and while Heth did commit crimes, many would argue his crimes are nothing when compared to those committed daily by the corporate elite.

quote]#98 Posted: 2013.10.28 02:53 | Report Like Honestly, all this talk of traitors to the State. Maybe some of you need reminding that only a short time ago Heth was ordering the executions of those he deemed to be "traitors" for protesting his regime. Perhaps some have forgotten just how long they continued to *defend* Heth's atrocities. Just how thick the blood was running in the street before they spoke out.

I suppose it is only natural for some to take the hard line now, after such a bloody national tragedy. Remember, if you can, the true nature of Tibus Heth. His charisma, and his brutality. Then ask yourself if you can blame those few Caldari who worked against his regime from the beginning. And with so little support within the State, can you blame them for accepting support offered by the Federation?

Heth's reign was only ever destined to end in fire. The only question was how many would be consumed in the flames. Our intelligence services worked tirelessly to prevent Heth from his aim of destroying our people. In time perhaps more Caldari will recognize the bravery of those within the State who took up the task of preventing him from destroying yours. That they found Gallente allies does not make them traitors. Their cause was to save the State, not betray it.

Believe me, if my Federation were to descend into the kind of tyranny shown by Heth... I would not hesitate a moment to accept support from the State in order to see it restored.

Heth was right, megacorporations had been infiltrated by traitors. No one accepted support from the Federation, top executives were compromised and they betrayed the State by working with the Federation.

Operatives had infiltrated all 8 megacorporations, im sure they played their part in organising protests and disruption within the megas, and helped in casuing consternation which helped in overthrowing the Heth regime.

I'm sure there are numerous Caldari intel assets working within the Federation government. President Roden is undoubtedly better informed about their reach and influence than I am. Any thinking person knows that two nations at war will inevitably have active espionage campaigns. We don't see Roden descending into paranoid madness and ordering freighters full of civilian protesters destroyed by the Black Eagles.

So what if Heth was right that the Gallente were spying? Clearly he was incapable of countering such espionage without resorting to barbarism. Your defense of his actions only proves you a barbarian along with him.

Most consider being a traitor to be the most abominable of all crimes punishable by death.

Most consider being a traitor to be the most abominable of all crimes punishable by death. Having top level executives in the megas as traitors is like having traitors very close to or within ones own goverment . Serious situation that needs to be resolved.

Your goverments use of death squads has been reported on in the past. Which is something Heths goverment has not been accused of. You talk about barbarism, but it is you who are the barbarians.

Cultures change even when left to themselves, sir. I'm not a fan of war or conquest, but I doubt that the Cultural Deliverance that the Gallente offered us would have been less damaging than enslavement. Both have aims of forcing compliance.

I still think that it would be a good question to ask the Ni-Kunni, sarcasm aside.

Well.

To be fair, we were closest, culturally, to the Minmatar.

Weird, eh?

If it is any consolation, not very many ethnic Amarrians are truly ethnic Amarrians anymore. You would have to be in a very, very conservative family to only descend from our original islander people. I know I certainly do not. As such, I would not say a Ni-kunni, or anyone else, should be discriminated against on the basis of their race. Faith makes the Empire, and those of Godly being and righteous thought deserve all the riches of His kingdom in the cluster.

I've always thought that the idea of clinging to the race of an Amarrian, rather than judging him by his faith and works, said more about the judge than the accused.

It would be the Thukker Tribe, to be exact, right? The surviving Ni-Kunni ethnic group is predominantly descended from Mishi IV's nomadic tribes, if I remember my history correctly.

The Vherokior simply did it in an environment very similar to ours. Yay for sand!

More appropriately, yay for water.

Ah, but there WAS a way out of that, Lyn. At least two that I can think of and the Federation picked the harder of the two.

The Ni-Kunni societies before the coming of the Amarr built civilizations on a world hardly meant to sustain even the simplest of life. It is through great perseverance and ingenuity that we created the world we did, and it is a testament to the Ni-Kunni spirit that we managed to do even that.

When you look to how far we came in the time we had before we were invaded, with what we had to work with, you should look with pride.

Had we the easy conditions of the Amarr Prime settlers, there is little doubt in my mind that we would today stand as one of the greatest nations in the cluster. Sadly, as it was, one could only do so much with so very little resources. We found an equilibrium of survival by building a relationship with our world and our gods - until it was torn apart.

I doubt very much that the Ni-Kunni would have developed into a great nation if they'd been set down on Athra.

Why not? After all, the Athrans did.

Are you perhaps spuriously implying Athrans have some sort of innate genetic or intellectual superiority?

Makkal's one of these neo-Amarrian charlatans like Baracca, trying to put a kinder, gentler face on the Amarrian religion without actually changing any of the things that put "having a kinder, gentler face" so high on the list of requirements for modern proselytisation in the first place.

OK...so they're trying not to be dicks like their counterparts. Why do they deserve to be berated for this?

I am curious to hear more about those two ways out of it that are not about armed conflict.

Do you mean that one is surrendering the planet ? If so, then as Mr Marellus said above, then one of the ways for the Caldari to get out of the deal 200 years ago was to surrender and comply to the law of the charter they signed, before trying to remove themselves from the system.

a contract signed under duress is not binding.

You clearly didn't read my post, Anslo.

They haven't changed anything fundamental about their beliefs - they've simply replaced supercilous arrogance with self-assured condescension. All it's done is replaced "you will kneel now" with "in time, you'll kneel." It's no less dangerous, just insidious rather than obvious. They still want the world to change to accomodate their beliefs, rather than trying to change their beliefs to fit the world, and they still can't conceive of the fact that some people don't want their religion and never will. They're just willing to lie, cheat and steal in the dark, rather than murder, torture and pillage in the open - and in that way I actually respect them less than unapologetic thugs like PIE Inc. At least PIE has never claimed to be anything else.

One of these days I really must starve you, beat you, put a gun to the heads of your family and have you sign a piece of paper giving me your home in perpetuity. Perhaps then you'll understand why a contract signed under duress is not binding.

And the Federation is completely, 100% not guilty of its own BS?

And the Federation is completely, 100% not guilty of its own BS?

Why not go the whole hog and hold it ransom by pointing a doomsday weapon at their home world, and demanding people who have actually lived there the past 200 years leave..

Oh wait.



On the alternative they could have paid the compensation due on those colonies they tried to hide from the rest of the Federation, then seceeded peacefully. The State tried to get out of their part of the deal of being in the Federation (something every other member state paid their fair share of) and then secceed afterwards having not tried to cheat everyone else at the table, as opposed to thinking they could flaunt rules and break agreements, and that no comeuppance or backlash were due.

Ego lead to the choice to bite off more than they could chew, but it wasn't the only option they had, and they certainly weren't under duress of the like when they made it.

To avoid circular argument, where I simply repeat everything I've said before, I will go so far as to simply point out that between you, Lyn and yourself managed to take the position that the State ought to have both surrendered it's home planet AND given over it's new colonies before leaving the Federation.

No. Now, why don't you go join the conversation where you lambast the Amarrians for being oppressive and unreasonable overlords?

Why not go the whole hog and hold it ransom by pointing a doomsday weapon at their home world, and demanding people who have actually lived there the past 200 years leave..

Oh wait.



On the alternative they could have paid the compensation due on those colonies they tried to hide from the rest of the Federation, then seceeded peacefully. The State tried to get out of their part of the deal of being in the Federation (something every other member state paid their fair share of) and then secceed afterwards having not tried to cheat everyone else at the table, as opposed to thinking they could flaunt rules and break agreements, and that no comeuppance or backlash were due.

Ego lead to the choice to bite off more than they could chew, but it wasn't the only option they had, and they certainly weren't under duress of the like when they made it.

I believe you are oversimplifying history. Attempts at peaceful secession were underway. War hungry U-Nats were looking for the first chance to stop it they could find. When terrorist destroyed Nouvelle Rouvenor, they felt that was a valid reason to commence the attack.

Erm, that's not what I said, it might be what you think I said, or hope I said, because it's a point you can argue against.

But it's not what I said.

I came in here with great hope for the future and some admiration for the people of the Federation. You have reduced me to stubborn denials and bitter intransigence.

You make me feel that shooting is preferable to shouting. I think we both lose.

When a discussion on this matter doesn't turn into a lawyers bill whereby you try to explain why we owe you a cut of things we built without your knowledge or support, maybe.

And, perhaps, when you're grown up enough to accept the consequences of your actions.

Marellus;

I haven't been following all of this exchange, because frankly I doubt we can find new arguments after centuries.

My issue is this: whatever else follows, you argue that what is essentially a case of tax evasion (which I do not dispute) is grounds for blockade and bombardment.

Surely the war could have been avoided; but the Federation's democracy becomes a tyranny of the Gallente majority, attempting to subject minorities to cultural annihilation. Surely you must realize that those who would be forced to subject themselves to Federation 'uplift' may regard Federation mandates as onerous and burdensome in the least. This is why the Caldari seceded, why so many Intaki joined the Legion or formed the Syndicate, and why Matari immigrants find themselves discriminated against in what is supposedly the most free and open society in New Eden -- while Gallente shrug and say they don't see any problems with the Federation's institutions.

You must notice a pattern here.

The Gallente Federation -- for all it claims to be inclusive -- is ultimately the Gallente Federation.

How is that argument germane to... anything? You lecture me about strawmen and reply with.... that?

Is this what the Federation is? We helped you, we allowed you to join, now you owe us everything forever?

What about the Intaki question. When will the Intaki be allowed to secession from the Federation and become independent nation. They have their own culture, their own identity and most of all they want to be independent. You believe in the great Federation democracy let the Intaki have a referendum on wether they want to stay in or out of the Federation.

Unfortunately they will find out you wont let them become independent, and the only way they will achieve this is by an armed struggle. The same way the Caldari achieved this.

One of these days I really must starve you, beat you, put a gun to the heads of your family and have you sign a piece of paper giving me your home in perpetuity. Perhaps then you'll understand why a contract signed under duress is not binding.

Surrendering something that is not yours should not be considered an onerous requirement, Lyn. I know it's a nice planet, I'm quite fond of it myself, but it isn't yours and I'm not thrilled at the idea of you deciding who can live there.

To avoid circular argument, where I simply repeat everything I've said before, I will go so far as to simply point out that between you, Lyn and yourself managed to take the position that the State ought to have both surrendered it's home planet AND given over it's new colonies before leaving the Federation.

No. Now, why don't you go join the conversation where you lambast the Amarrians for being oppressive and unreasonable overlords?

I came in here with great hope for the future and some admiration for the people of the Federation. You have reduced me to stubborn denials and bitter intransigence..

And, perhaps, when you're grown up enough to accept the consequences of your actions.

Meanwhile to me you're saying that orbital blockade, bombardment, theft of homeworld, two hundred years of mid to low intensity warfare, invasion of our colonies in Black Rise, destruction of the Malkalen station and assassination of Otro Gariushi? That's a proper reaction to tax evasion.

Yes. Yes. I'm sure THIS is a strawman argument as well. I'm pretty sure that everything looks like a strawman argument to someone who can't see, can't hear and won't entertain anybody else's opinion on something. Just remember, as disagreeable as you find me, as invalid as you find my arguments - I'm fighting for the independence and survival of my people from a foe who has tried to destroy them. You're fighting because you think we owe you money.

Not at all, it needed to never even go that far, the blockades, the ethnic cleansing ground side, all of it, could have all been avoided long, long before. The other member states of the Federation could have been compensated financially for the Caldari deception, before they seceeded peacefully. No loss of life or home and no prolonged conflict that has long lost a great deal of it's meaning and mostly exists to fund the arms dealers.

That could of been negotiated if we decided not to act like idiots and deliver the first blow.

Define first blow, I'd rather avoid the whole "Chicken and the Egg" discussion here, it's been done to death, but where in history do you go through the timeline and say "That's the first step of it all going wrong."

You referring to the deal whereby the Intaki run their planet any damn way they see fit (so long as the State have control of the system - obviously it changes when the FDU control it!), and run their trade through a reciprocal deal with Ishukone that both parties are happy with?

We're MONSTERS.

What about the Intaki question. When will the Intaki be allowed to secession from the Federation and become independent nation. They have their own culture, their own identity and most of all they want to be independent. You believe in the great Federation democracy let the Intaki have a referendum on wether they want to stay in or out of the Federation.

Unfortunately they will find out you wont let them become independent, and the only way they will achieve this is by an armed struggle. The same way the Caldari achieved this.

Condemning an entire civilization over the actions of a few terrorist and bombing their home worldsounds like the first part of a clusterfuck to me.

It was more than Nouvelle Rouvenour though, prior to that the Caldari army was taking direct military action against Gallente settlements, levelling them to the ground in an act of nothing more than ethnic cleansing.

The condemnation of an entire race was one of the steps (and certainly one of the larger) where things went wrong, but it wasn't the first, not even the first shot fired. That doesn't justify it, not at all, not now and not ever, but it is still unfair regardless to say it was the first blow.

You do realize that Gallente dissidents were also doing the exact same thing to the Caldari at the exact same time right? We were hardly defending poor innocent Gallenteans being bullied by meanie Caldari when the bombardment started.

The bombardment was the first official act of war, as it was directly ordered by the Federal government. Caldari attacks on Gallente settlements were done in response to Gallente attacks on Caldari settlements, and vice versa.

Because you, a Provist

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.

Now, on the Intaki history stuff, I'll bow to your greater knowledge. You're Intaki and it's your history, you likely know it better than I do.

On the matter of calling me a Provist, I'm going to assume that it's simple jaijii ignorance. I'm not a Provist. I've never been a Provist. I was active in fighting against the Provist and the Templis Dragonaur. I supported the CEP against Heth in every major engagement fought in his ouster, bar one, where I got sidelined into a peripheral skirmish.

So that one you get for free, Andreus. But please don't call me a Provist again.

On the matter of calling me a Provist

With Nouvelle Rouvenor it's a serious competition to decide whether it was more a tragedy than an outrage or vice versa. Certainly everything that came after it was a tragedy.

I think you have your chronology confused.

Sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente lead to a militia responce to defend them, this lead to the Caldari army bombarding villages and towns, while the militia enacted guerilla warfare against the Caldari military, in a quite barbaric matter.

The Caldari were the first to fire on the civilian populace, and the ever growing death toll was more Gallente than Caldari.

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.

And contrary to your argument, the UNATS demanded military action long before Nouvelle to go in and protect the Gallente citizens on the planet. By the time the bombardments started they'd come to the twisted logic that their options were kill or be killed. Again, wrong call, but by no means the first one in any sense.

Ahh a typical rookie historian mistake, "The order it was written is the order things happened!" you forget that all of those events parallel with each other.

Violence was occurring between both groups at the same time. Keep in mind that the whole build up to the war happened in under a month. If things happened in the order you describe them, everyone would be running around so fast their hearts would give out.

And the underwater cities were already inhabited by then. It's fairly difficult to build a/mass immigrate to an underwater city in under a month.

Why not? After all, the Athrans did.

Are you perhaps spuriously implying Athrans have some sort of innate genetic or intellectual superiority?

Makkal's one of these neo-Amarrian charlatans like Baracca, trying to put a kinder, gentler face on the Amarrian religion without actually changing any of the things that put "having a kinder, gentler face" so high on the list of requirements for modern proselytisation in the first place.

That's entirely impossible, even if you ignore the chronology in which the article was written, the wording explains how one event lead to another, and then lead to another.

Eventually yes people were fighting each other, and yes it escalated in a short space of time, 2-3 months, a bit longer than you suggested, and while things escalated quickly, they certainly didn't do so at an unreaslistic pace.

Perhaps we would all be well-suited if we argued the positions opposite to our beliefs for awhile.

You are both correct. I have allowed myself to be baited by those of ill intentions, despite my hopes in a greater peace between the Federation and State. I have erred and brought shame, and admit that my contributions to this thread have only gone counter to the aspirations of both Ishukone and myself.

For that, I beg the forgiveness of those present.

I now resign myself from this thread.

Everything you just wrote would be relevant if I had called you a Provist. Everything you just wrote is not relevant because you didn't check who my post was addressed to and what post it was quoting before you wrote a response.

Because they've never asked for one? Because every survey ever conducted - by Federal agencies, by independent organisations, even by the Caldari when they briefly occupied the planet - indicated that the overwhelming majority of Intaki living on Intaki Prime want to stay with the Federation? Because the overwhelming majority of the Intaki ethnicity doesn't even live on Intaki anymore? Because billions of non-Intaki Federal citizens live and work on planets that would be inside a notional "independent Intaki nation?"

Speaking of sensationalist crap, I hear the FIO apparently lost a document that may well just be a false flag to instill paranoia within the State. Oh hey, wait, this was the thread for discussing that.

my people - in the Federation

Well, the furore seems to have mellowed the Gallente in their old age. When you guys whelped a Dreadnaught fleet against them, they didn't do ANYTHING.

We get hounded for two centuries for some 'accounting irregularities'.

My, noses certainly got bent out of joint when I pointed out a bit of simple history. You built in secret a network of stargates and bases to project your power and influence and to expand your potential markets without sharing the profits with your supposed partners.

Name call, berate and insult me all you like, but the history is what it is. I didn't make it either; you Caldari did.

Im sure the FIO are capable of false flags, but the people in the senate are not actors. The raids on the Scope these are not acts. Your conspiracy theory here Marellus is just to far fetched. This is genuine concern for lost confidential document. Strapon your tinfoil helmet protect yourself Marellus.

There are calls for Intaki to secede, there are Intaki secession groups and organisations.

Solve the Intaki problem once and for all and let them have a referendum to stay in or out of the Federation. Give them the option every 4 years to decided wether or not they want another referendum or not if they decide to stay in. What is wrong with that Andreus & Marellus, that is democracy. You cant have any objections to a referendum.

Your people , you dont act like they are your people.

You act like a true Gallente.

Long live a free Intaki

I never worked out what principle drove those FDU pilots who have principles out to fight in the first place.

No matter how hard you and Seriphyn try to seal yourselves away in your little 100% relativist bubbles, Anslo, you won't always be able to deflect criticism away from nations you don't owe loyalty to by bringing up the flaws of a nation you do.

Show some godsdamned national pride for once. The Federation is about as far from perfect as we can get - people like Thoun Gaterau and Mentas Blaque clearly attest to that - but for heavens' sake we're still a damn sight better than the other three, and better than the Amarr by the largest margin - and lest you think otherwise, the other nations would hardly stop claiming to be the best even if we did so ourselves.

Not every foreigner is a threat to the Federation. We pride oureselves on being able to recognise that. But some most definitely are, and not all of them are, like Rodj Blake, kind enough to wave a giant, brightly-coloured flag with the words "I AM A THREAT TO THE FEDERATION" emblazoned on it. Tolerance, acceptance and integration are a good thing, but the sensible Federal citizen realises that there is a limit to all of them.

With the benefit of five years of hindsight, I wish this war had never happened. It's benefited no-one - even Heth, who started it for his own selfish self-advancement, came to ruin because of it. But having seen what happened for the six months the FDU failed the Federation's people - having seen the disastrous results of corporate mismanagement and Provist oppression - I don't regret a single second of the fighting I did.

Tuulinen-suuolo...

We should talk.

Also don't lump me in with Seriphyn. I'm not an egomaniac making my own city state for his kid. I call bullshit as I see bullshit..

That's ironic seeing as it appears you haven't made the effort to actually read anything up on Elusenia.

Capsuleers would much rather call us a cult than do their research. It's not that hard. Goddess, I wonder how people think Gallente space was settled over the centuries.

Though, I would assert that I don't owe any loyalty to the Federation. To the Gallente nation, maybe, but the Federation wasn't around two hundred years ago, and may not be in the next.

Which is why you'll surely support the CEP if they order Heth's execution.

I was right, Heth was right when we talked about enemies from within. CEP has been compromised and is not fit for purpose. All the megas have been infiltrated with enemy agents, and top executives have worked with the Federation against the State..