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Beckett Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2013.11.07 06:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion.
But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161
I was perma jammed during il this "fight"...
How many ECCM should I put on my ship? Three ECCM modules only usable if there is ECM in the enemy fleet and useless at the end...
Seriously there is a problem.
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Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
120
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Posted - 2013.11.07 08:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. Use Meta 4 ECCMs, better and cheaper
2. Random is random.
3. You had a sensor strength of roughly 72, a blackbird has about 5 jammers, probably one of them matching your race. A All V blackbird has a jam strength of 10 racial and about 3 non racial. So his chance to jam you is 14% racial and 4% non racial. as these are non independant the jamming chance per cycle is about 30% (Correct me if I am off).
4. Your ship had about 75K EHP, the three faction cruiser deal lets say 500 DPS per ship, so you take 1500 DPS. So you have about 50 seconds before you explode or two jamming cycles. (I assume that that the blackbird was not on the field the moment the fight began)
5. Your chance to be jammed by both cycles in a row is about 9% so roughly 1 in 10 cases.
6. To sum it up: ECM sucks and you had bad luck
7. LOL Goon tears ;) |
Kosetzu
S1lver Flame
84
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 09:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heard about... you know, overheating? It does help your sensor strength, usually enough for you to shoot down a blackbird. |
acemastr Ocer
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.11.07 09:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
75k EHP? on that fit? bit over zealous with that figure. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
338
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 09:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
acemastr Ocer wrote:75k EHP? on that fit? bit over zealous with that figure.
Triple Trimark BC with 2 EANMs and a 1600 plate typically has around 70k EHP, so it isn't.
@OP, there is very little you can do in that kind of situation once in the brawl, the best advice would have been to try and split them up to either isolate 1-2 of there DPS or the BB itself and then go from there. |
Nova Satar
Rekall Incorporated
Sinewave Alliance
188
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 11:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yes ECM is a complete joke and any competant and risk taking PVPer would gladly see the back of this game ruining mechanic, HOWEVER i struggle to believe you were perma jammed by a blackbird with 3 eccm mods fifted, even though arrays terrible.... do you have the compensation skill trained? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
434
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Posted - 2013.11.07 12:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lost a 4v1 fight.
Blaming ECM.
Nice  |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
488
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Posted - 2013.11.07 12:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Beckett Firesnake wrote:I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion. But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161I was perma jammed during il this "fight"... How many ECCM should I put on my ship? Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more... For what? Nothing... Seriously there is a problem.
I hate DUMBs like you , they ruin good games, it is only about dumbed down one dimensional warfare. It is not only my opinion.
Eccm is useless cause ecm is overnerfed thats all.
If ecm was more used then eccm would be used too, like resist modules.
Yes there is a problem , dumb people want tank dps ship cause they are too stupid to handle anything more.
And they constantly whine about ecm , what they dont understand at all how it works. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
338
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 12:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Beckett Firesnake wrote:I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion. But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161I was perma jammed during il this "fight"... How many ECCM should I put on my ship? Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more... For what? Nothing... Seriously there is a problem. I hate DUMBs like you , they ruin good games, it is only about dumbed down one dimensional warfare. It is not only my opinion. Eccm is useless cause ecm is overnerfed thats all. If ecm was more used then eccm would be used too, like resist modules. Yes there is a problem , dumb people want tank dps ship cause they are too stupid to handle anything more. And they constantly whine about ecm , what they dont understand at all how it works.
No offence but thats really ********.
The issue with ECM is twofold;
First the "Counter" to ECM is extremely innefective, compared to say, fitting a Sebo to counter Damps.
Second unlike damps, TDs, neuts, scrams etc there is no (within reason) skill counter to ECM, you can outfly a Maulus or a Damping Celestis, you can outfly a TD Hookbill, the binary nature of ECM precludes this. |
Bobinu
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
16
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
ECM has always puzzled me.
Would be nice, if ECM had a chance to reduce the amount of lockable targets to a minimum of 0.
Meaning that it might only reduce the amount of lockable targets to say half, or -4.
some ideas/examples
ECM vs a Golem, low sensor str could reduce this by 80% or by 8.
BB has 10 ECM, Target has 30 sensor str could = removing 3 of the total lockable targets by that ship.
Half baked idea, would make ECM more fun, ECCM could secure at least 1 slot that can lock?? |
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Angelina Joliee
Project Stealth Squad
The Initiative.
26
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Lost a 4v1 fight. Blaming ECM. Nice
this! It doesnt matter, what ship the forth ship was.
It could have been a logisitc => op had lost without getting a single kill.
It could have been a ship with tracking-disruptors => op had lost without getting a single kill.
And permamming is easy in a very short fight.
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Beckett Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
I overheated my ECCM and I have ECM compensation @ 4.
I do not blame ECM for losing the fight. 4vs1 I would probably lose this fight.
I blame the fact I was never able to fight back in spite of three ECCM modules.
Without this Blackbird I would perharps be able to flee or to have a kill before losing my ship... But we will never know because there had no fight... |
Dato Koppla
Perkone
Caldari State
338
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Second unlike damps, TDs, neuts, scrams etc there is no (within reason) skill counter to ECM, you can outfly a Maulus or a Damping Celestis, you can outfly a TD Hookbill, the binary nature of ECM precludes this.
You can outfly ECM if you're not in a 4 on 1 and hard tackled, if you're ECM'd and you're not tackled/or are able to get out of tackle range, you can simply warp away. Most of the time people who complain about ECM are in fights they can't win anyway (they can take out a couple of ships and then die), if you don't know if the enemy has ECM or not, don't get hard tackled in a bad situation. |
Beckett Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:
Second unlike damps, TDs, neuts, scrams etc there is no (within reason) skill counter to ECM, you can outfly a Maulus or a Damping Celestis, you can outfly a TD Hookbill, the binary nature of ECM precludes this.
You can outfly ECM if you're not in a 4 on 1 and hard tackled, if you're ECM'd and you're not tackled/or are able to get out of tackle range, you can simply warp away. Most of the time people who complain about ECM are in fights they can't win anyway (they can take out a couple of ships and then die), if you don't know if the enemy has ECM or not, don't get hard tackled in a bad situation.
In fact this gang was not the one I was coming for (Falcon+Sabre was my target) |
Beckett Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Beckett Firesnake wrote:I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion. But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161I was perma jammed during il this "fight"... How many ECCM should I put on my ship? Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more... For what? Nothing... Seriously there is a problem. I hate DUMBs like you , they ruin good games, it is only about dumbed down one dimensional warfare. It is not only my opinion. Eccm is useless cause ecm is overnerfed thats all. If ecm was more used then eccm would be used too, like resist modules. Yes there is a problem , dumb people want tank dps ship cause they are too stupid to handle anything more. And they constantly whine about ecm , what they dont understand at all how it works.
Did you see the kill report? Seriously? ECM is overnerfed?
And it is a player that's hide behind an alt that tell that? |
bubble trout
Sky Fighters
100
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 14:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
**** luck bro. ECM gets under my skin too. I wish ccp would change it to any number of suggestions(ranging from the cut number of locked targets, to just breaking locks) I've heard, but IDK, they never seem to listen. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
338
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Beckett Firesnake wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:
Second unlike damps, TDs, neuts, scrams etc there is no (within reason) skill counter to ECM, you can outfly a Maulus or a Damping Celestis, you can outfly a TD Hookbill, the binary nature of ECM precludes this.
You can outfly ECM if you're not in a 4 on 1 and hard tackled, if you're ECM'd and you're not tackled/or are able to get out of tackle range, you can simply warp away. Most of the time people who complain about ECM are in fights they can't win anyway (they can take out a couple of ships and then die), if you don't know if the enemy has ECM or not, don't get hard tackled in a bad situation. In fact this gang was not the one I was coming for (Falcon+Sabre was my target)
As an aside, Gnosis are a great counter to Falcon camps, tank in the lows, Scram/Web/MWD mids and then 3 M4 ECCMs, even if you somehow get jammed like half of your DPS is drones anyways. |
Vinzent Arran
The Short Bus Squad
Ragnarok.
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I feel your pain. I thought I had a chance against this small gang in FW.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20289270
I thought I could kill the griffin first if I burnt towards him and managed to target him when he missed a cycle. Instead, the rest of the fleet tackled me while the griffin had already put about 2 cycles of ecm. When he actually missed a cycle he was 40km out. I managed to destroy a kestrel in this time, but was jammed again until I popped. This griffin was rainbow fit, highest ecm value for ladar was 5.5 I believe. The SFI had almost 20 with compensation skills. Never go against a fleet with ecm I suppose. |
Chessur
Strontless Mistakes
Fatal Ascension
202
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 01:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Honestly the best way to deal with ECM is this
1. Fly a kiting ship, so if you are jammed and not pointed, you always have the option to leave
2. Fly guided missile boats, and load up FoF missiles. They are really clutch, and have saved me many times.
3. Get info links or Talos / Grails (implants for what ever faction ship you are currently flying.) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
740
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 11:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.
So it only seems like its OP, its somewhat like the guy who gets robbed by a person of another race and then thinks that that race are all robbers because he failed to notice the 99.9% of that race who didn't rob him. We always notice when things go wrong but not when they don't.
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp? |
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Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
16
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Posted - 2013.11.08 11:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.
Aren't ECM-ships typically far away? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
740
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 11:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jonas Staal wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death. Aren't ECM-ships typically far away?
If its a solo fight vs an ecm ship and its far away you can simply warp off. If its you solo vs a gang you're dead anyway. If its you and your gang vs another gang then you can damp the ecm ship, or you can snipe the ecm ship or you can get a warp in to him... |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
440
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 12:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?
Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
306
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 13:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
ECCM just needs some bonus to apply when not being jammed, ike reducing sigradiusor similiar. Having a module to be fit for and exclusively for defending against jamming is just bad, other 'defenses' against ewar also don't turn useless, once the one ewartype you fitted against isn't there <.< |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
340
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 15:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp? Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.
Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb;
7.82K Range.
Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb that has 1 Scripted Sebo;
12.52K Range.
Thats quite a lot different to being jammed. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
743
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 15:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp? Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological. Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb; 7.82K Range. Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb that has 1 Scripted Sebo; 12.52K Range. Thats quite a lot different to being jammed.
Actually 3 damps + 2 inverted signal field projector rigs applied to a Harb by a Celestis damps the Harb to 10.6k. 4 damps to Harb down to 8.6k, less then the range of a scram. There is no missed damp that allows you to blap the Celestis.
In comparison, a blackbird jamming an ECCM fitted Harb gets a jam 25.6 % of the time. So 74.6% of the time it applies its racial jammer to your harb it fails and you get to blap its 6k ehp. If it tries to use its non-racial jammer it fails 92% of the time. If it has a multispectral backup that fails 83% of the time.
I know what I'd rather be using, Celestis with damps :) |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
112
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Posted - 2013.11.08 16:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.
Damps also can't be two-boxed on an alt with two button clicks, then completely ignored. If you're damped and go for the damping ship, they actually have to switch back over and do some piloting on it to avoid losing it, with a Falcon it's totally unnecessary. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
71
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 20:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp? Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.
Neuting, Damps, and TD all have effective hard counters and/or only effect half the ships they come across. Jamming effects all subcaps. |
Beckett Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.11.09 11:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.
So it only seems like its OP, its somewhat like the guy who gets robbed by a person of another race and then thinks that that race are all robbers because he failed to notice the 99.9% of that race who didn't rob him. We always notice when things go wrong but not when they don't.
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?
In fact, ECM is not so overpowered in fleet vs fleet pvp. But when you solo, a falcon means most of the time death. The only way to deal with it is to run far from it to begin engagement... But with a little luck, a falcon that pass a cycle and you lose your scramble, your web, your tracking, disrupt, your turrets... Really bad.
It is not the point of this thread. This thread is about the fact that even with three ECCM modules you can be permajammed by e Blackbird... I find this really hard. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
753
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Posted - 2013.11.09 11:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Beckett Firesnake wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.
So it only seems like its OP, its somewhat like the guy who gets robbed by a person of another race and then thinks that that race are all robbers because he failed to notice the 99.9% of that race who didn't rob him. We always notice when things go wrong but not when they don't.
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.
People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp? In fact, ECM is not so overpowered in fleet vs fleet pvp. But when you solo, a falcon means most of the time death. The only way to deal with it is to run far from it to begin engagement... But with a little luck, a falcon that pass a cycle and you lose your scramble, your web, your tracking, disrupt, your turrets... Really bad. It is not the point of this thread. This thread is about the fact that even with three ECCM modules you can be permajammed by e Blackbird... I find this really hard.
Sorry but I don't believe you. If you had 3 ECCM on you would have a 90ish sensor strength. Even if the Blackbird had every mid filled with Radar jammer's the odds of jamming you are less than 50%. Its likely that he had 1 of each and perhaps a multispec which puts his jamming chance against you at 15%. Unless you died in 2 seconds its very unlikely you were permajammed the whole fight. Its statistically bullcrap. |
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