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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
738
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:44:00 -
[151] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Niena Nuamzzar wrote:With proposed changes, IMO, up to 20 seconds reload time could be acceptable but no more! Better solution, as already stated, would be making a new launcher or new missile types so we can CHOOSE! Please, please, please, don't kill the last decent weapon system for most of the Caldari ships Cruise missiles are pretty good after the rebalance last year. True but they aren't as much used in small gangs pvp.
Sure they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emb2v0yKM7s is a good small gang video involving almost entirely cruise phoons. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
662
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:45:00 -
[152] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You shoud l use your brian and calcualte how much damage you can dish with ALL missiles ina cerberus for example (the ship that effectively mos tuse rapid launchers). 20 k damage.. no matter how you stagger it. You are just somethign lauguable. You will VERY rappdly brign your enemy to low armor.. then do nothing.. until he gets away or kills you.
That is NOT good!
Ever heard of the rabbit and the turtle child story? You know wich one won at the end?
This just makes no sense, what is proposed atm is 409 dps for ~50seconds for a caracal (which has 5 launchers), reload time is 40 seconds, if you fire 3 launchers for 50 seconds and start firing 2 launchers on top of that at 40 second mark, you'll do 245 dps for 40 seconds, 409 dps for 10 seconds and then 163,6 dps for 40 seconds, after which you dps once again rises to 245 for the next 40 seconds. Atm you'll do 266 dps with 5 scourge furies on a caracal. What i suggest is increasing the dps to letsay 440 at which point using them continuously becomes 264 dps for 40 seconds followed by 440 dps for 10 seconds followed by 176 dps for the last 40 seconds of the cycle. I do not in any way understand how this becomes "you only get 20 k damage and then you're done". If i use the new rlml's in this way i lose very little dps in continuous fire (like i said earlier) and gain the possibility of bursting alot more than before if i want. What this does is gives me the possibility of choosing, only thing i see a problem with is making sure the numbers are good enough so the continuous fire isn't too much nerfed from what it was before while being able to burst if needed. Edit: atm a caracal can dishout 23 940 damage in 90 seconds after current proposal it can dishout 20 434 in 90 seconds. Do you get it now ?
FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue.
Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2163
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:46:00 -
[153] - Quote
my first thought was: now we really need reload and cooldown timers in the UI |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3258
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:48:00 -
[154] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Seriously? You couldn't find a way to tweak missile stats so that rapid launchers do ~75% of the theoretical DPS of whatever their on-size equivalent is, but with better damage application? How does something that nerfs your DPS in exchange for better performance in some specific scenario (in which you are fighting something smaller than usual) not constitute a tradeoff / niche fitting?
If you can't figure out a set of numbers that will make rapids apply more damage to undersized targets than their on-sized counterparts while applying less damage to on-size or plus-size targets... well I'm not really sure what to say. You're doing it wrong?
This idea sucks. It makes rapids utterly useless for any small gang / solo ships and is totally unnecessary. Rapids already are a niche weapon: if they're not niche enough then fiddle the dps / application numbers again until they strike an appropriate balance rather than turning another niche strategy into a useless gimmick.
This.
"Situation Specific" weapons are a bad idea. The weapons and tactics that get used are good in multiple situations even if they aren't the best choice in a specific situation. Their are loads of weapons and items in EVE that get little use because of this. Not that a "swarm" type missile launcher idea isn't cool, I just have doubts about this idea.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:50:00 -
[155] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You simply destroyed my best ship (cerberus with rapid launchers). With that long reload time I cannot kill anythign meaningful (and i need rapid launchers because hamds do not fit with an useful fit). Mehh 1 billion isp spent on a ship that will be thrown in garbage can now.
Also that cahnge makes ROF bonus on launchrs a VERY SAD feature :/
Think about those numbers.. make a few more charges. So that you can kill acruiser with it.
OThewrwise you jus tmade the weapon useles for SOLO and small gang work. Surprise.. as if this was not a trend in game.
I fail to see how 800dps in a cerberus for 40 seconds that applies on like any ship it shoots at is a reason to "throw it in the garbage can". Its the same DPS as before. If your opponent can burst tank 40 seconds of 800 dps he can tank a consistent 400 dps too.
Let me put it simpler to you. Now matter how large is your dps, if the max dmage you can do before you stop doign damage is less than enemy EHP... he will nto be dead.. and he has 40 seconds to get away or kill you. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1038
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:54:00 -
[156] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Motoko Innocentius wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You shoud l use your brian and calcualte how much damage you can dish with ALL missiles ina cerberus for example (the ship that effectively mos tuse rapid launchers). 20 k damage.. no matter how you stagger it. You are just somethign lauguable. You will VERY rappdly brign your enemy to low armor.. then do nothing.. until he gets away or kills you.
That is NOT good!
Ever heard of the rabbit and the turtle child story? You know wich one won at the end?
This just makes no sense, what is proposed atm is 409 dps for ~50seconds for a caracal (which has 5 launchers), reload time is 40 seconds, if you fire 3 launchers for 50 seconds and start firing 2 launchers on top of that at 40 second mark, you'll do 245 dps for 40 seconds, 409 dps for 10 seconds and then 163,6 dps for 40 seconds, after which you dps once again rises to 245 for the next 40 seconds. Atm you'll do 266 dps with 5 scourge furies on a caracal. What i suggest is increasing the dps to letsay 440 at which point using them continuously becomes 264 dps for 40 seconds followed by 440 dps for 10 seconds followed by 176 dps for the last 40 seconds of the cycle. I do not in any way understand how this becomes "you only get 20 k damage and then you're done". If i use the new rlml's in this way i lose very little dps in continuous fire (like i said earlier) and gain the possibility of bursting alot more than before if i want. What this does is gives me the possibility of choosing, only thing i see a problem with is making sure the numbers are good enough so the continuous fire isn't too much nerfed from what it was before while being able to burst if needed. Edit: atm a caracal can dishout 23 940 damage in 90 seconds after current proposal it can dishout 20 434 in 90 seconds. Do you get it now ? FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue. Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically
I'm fairly certain that the whole point of this change is that RLMLs should not be good against enemy cruisers, and should be a specialized choice for fighting smaller stuff, not the weapon-of-choice that lets you apply damage perfectly to everything all the time. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
68
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:55:00 -
[157] - Quote
The logic of your "rebalance" choice here needs to be taken off the crackpipe and sobered up. In game terms you're proposing a large and radical change to a weapons system that wasn't previously on the table and you're 11 days from deployment, if this isn't a recipie for a total disaster I don't know what is.
Now that the rant part is out of the way, let's put the other side of this issue out there.
PvE
yep, I'm going there.
Ask people running plexes/missions/sites/etc that light missiles would be an advantage on if a 40sec reload time is reasonable before you try to implement this kind of change. your problem here isn't with the rapid lights bieng overpowered, its with heavies having been cut too far and now you're just seeing the results from that. If you want to field launchers as described then do so but make them a separate item, don't screw up a weapons system that is performing as expected.
Instead run the numbers on the following:
increase heavy missile base damage by 4% increase heavy missile damage application by 10% |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
44
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 16:57:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Kat Ayclism wrote:Holy crap that's terrible ******* idea Would love if you expanded a bit.
Ok how about this. This trend of increasing reload time is a bad design philosophy to keep applying. At this rate you'll make 1400mm artillery take 10 minutes to reload because it can do a 13K volley. Because y'know burst damage or some crap like that.
It is bad to have to disengage just to reload your primary offensive weapon. rapid light missiles are not bomb launchers or asb's. You could just increase the cerberus damage more with rapid lights to that 409 dps so people have an even bigger reason to specialize beyond another 30K flight range. For rapid heavies you will need a t2 specilized boat like the golem maybe that can boost that damage up to where you are considering it ~900 dps (maybe higher to 1100 dps on golem and 450 dps on cerberus)
Leave the modules as generally good where you have them now...increase bonuses for specialization. Incentives are great. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1456
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:01:00 -
[159] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:With a 40 second reload the situation that will happen is: Do lots of damage and hope you kill the target, no then they completely rep them selves while you reload your missiles then you fire off them all again and hope you kill them.
The reload time needs to go down to 20 seconds.
as per Gypsio III would that not eq a net gain in overall dps?
as 40 seconds is only a 9% reduction is long time dps?
you would have to reduce the rate of fire to compensate so the ratio stays the same if they chose to change the reload time. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:08:00 -
[160] - Quote
On further reflection, this is actually quite an innovative direction for RLMLs and RHMLs. I think the reload time needs to be adjusted down to 30 (or even 20) seconds, as 40 seconds in PvP is an eternity. The one thing that no one's really considering is that you may see a mix of RLML/HML and cruise/RHML setups. |
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Yosarian
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
13
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
Fun idea. Given the apparent popularity of HAMs at the moment they make a nice alternative.
Would be nice if Typhoon ship bonuses worked for the BS-sized module ;) |
Justin Einstein
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1396
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:11:00 -
[163] - Quote
It looks like someone has been playing World of Tanks too much. I was wondering when 'auto loaders' would make an appearance. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:12:00 -
[164] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Motoko Innocentius wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
You shoud l use your brian and calcualte how much damage you can dish with ALL missiles ina cerberus for example (the ship that effectively mos tuse rapid launchers). 20 k damage.. no matter how you stagger it. You are just somethign lauguable. You will VERY rappdly brign your enemy to low armor.. then do nothing.. until he gets away or kills you.
That is NOT good!
Ever heard of the rabbit and the turtle child story? You know wich one won at the end?
This just makes no sense, what is proposed atm is 409 dps for ~50seconds for a caracal (which has 5 launchers), reload time is 40 seconds, if you fire 3 launchers for 50 seconds and start firing 2 launchers on top of that at 40 second mark, you'll do 245 dps for 40 seconds, 409 dps for 10 seconds and then 163,6 dps for 40 seconds, after which you dps once again rises to 245 for the next 40 seconds. Atm you'll do 266 dps with 5 scourge furies on a caracal. What i suggest is increasing the dps to letsay 440 at which point using them continuously becomes 264 dps for 40 seconds followed by 440 dps for 10 seconds followed by 176 dps for the last 40 seconds of the cycle. I do not in any way understand how this becomes "you only get 20 k damage and then you're done". If i use the new rlml's in this way i lose very little dps in continuous fire (like i said earlier) and gain the possibility of bursting alot more than before if i want. What this does is gives me the possibility of choosing, only thing i see a problem with is making sure the numbers are good enough so the continuous fire isn't too much nerfed from what it was before while being able to burst if needed. Edit: atm a caracal can dishout 23 940 damage in 90 seconds after current proposal it can dishout 20 434 in 90 seconds. Do you get it now ? FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue. Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically I'm fairly certain that the whole point of this change is that RLMLs should not be good against enemy cruisers, and should be a specialized choice for fighting smaller stuff, not the weapon-of-choice that lets you apply damage perfectly to everything all the time.
You mean they shoudl be good agaisnt the ships that they already shred completely into oblivion?
And that no one in sane mind shoudl fit them because, specially now with warp speed changes"the most likely class of ships you gonna fight are about same size as yours?
This is just making this weapon class useless.
Also it is stil WORSE than current rapid launcher agaisnt well tanked frigates.
A jaguar well tanked can have over 10K eahp and will nto receive even half of the damage from these rapid missiles . A Cerberus fit to kill frigates would die PATHETICALLY to a single frigate with these changes. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
696
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
This change is crap.
CCP Rise wrote: The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice.
Of course ! Is it too complicated to focus the rebalance on missiles in general first ? (including charges AND the introduction on missile computers) Because, and it was extensively demonstrated on the article of TMC, currently Cruise missiles are SNIPE ammo, and Torpedoes are BS + Structure sized only. There is NO WEAPON that is able to deal with BCs and smaller. The problem is not about RHML being overpowered : if they are more powerful then cruise or torp it's simply because there is no BS sized missiles to fill the role. A role that precisely happen in 90% of the situations in PvP. When did you see a BS missile ship being used in pvp for the last time ?
RLML and RHML are the only weapons enabling missile ships to decently engage in pvp when they believe that there will be smaller ships. Not because there will be ONLY smaller ships, but because they know that one single smaller ship will be able to tank them for the eternity due to the way missiles work.
As such, and even if it's an interesting idea, this change will simply make RLML and RHML useless. Who would bother choosing a weapon system that, MAYBE, will help them kill smaller ships but will CERTAINLY make them loose the rest of the time ? This is also an indirect buff to buffer tanking, since the only concern is to tank the incoming damage for 50 seconds before getting 40 seconds of freedom which means basically a free kill (no missile ship is really tanky except the drake, and he was nerfed).
So, what does this tell us ? Cruiser and BS-sized missiles are crap in pvp, because they aren't effective against smaller targets, even with stasises. Whereas large turret ships can do wonders with stasises. The way target painters work is, as well, an heresy. How do you make a difference when the debuff is a percentage ? By nature this means that against smaller ships, non-bonused TP are irrelevant.
My proposal : 1- Make speed more relevant than sig radius for damage calculations below a certain sig radius threshold (or for close-range missiles). So that if you make the ennemi ship motionless you don't need TPs. 2- Make Sig radius more relevant than speed for damage calculations above a certain speed threshold (or for long-range missiles). So that target painting becomes a wiser choice against fast targets. 1 & 2 preserve some love for the decision making, while enabling a new wide array of uses for long-range missiles. (Do anyone here use cruise missiles currently ? ^^') 3- Sized target painters ? 1nm, 10nm, 100nm (random numbers) target painters ! When a battleship target paints a frigate with its big ray, it should increase the sig radius accordingly to the size of weapons he is using. It also prevents abuses with small and fast frigates being used to support cruise missiles snipers. 4- New hybrid-damage missiles types ! (50%/50%) Caldaris's kinetic bonuses only applies if the missile is making 50 or 100% of its damage in kinetic. There is still the race's favorite damage, but you cannot just fill the kinetic resist and be assured that it will work perfectly against missiles and still very decently against hybrids. Keep the 10sec reload time of course. 5- No new increase in missile DPS ! Above changes make damage application easier, but paper DPS should remain the same. 6- Upgrade F.O.F ammo to make them actually useful. OR delete them entierly and create a ship-wide FOF toggle if you prefer. At the expense of missile sig radius so that you cannot just FOF if a frigate runs by and oneshot it, but you can still say NO to the nasty ship ECMing you. The ennemy fleet will have to think and manage who is the closest ship from you if they manage to jam a missile ship. 7- With these changes, what happens to RLMLs and RHMLs ? Well imho it would be better to leave them in their previous state without the 40sec cooldown.
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Syrias Bizniz
Segmentum Solar Nulli Secunda
227
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:15:00 -
[166] - Quote
So the Cerberus becomes more and more interesting... |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1457
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:20:00 -
[168] - Quote
Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.
why are you still doing lev II missions? |
zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:21:00 -
[169] - Quote
i have a good proposal. buff HML application to the level of HAMS. and lets start talking again |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
160
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:21:00 -
[170] - Quote
These new changes seem like a bad idea to me. They make these weapons too niche to be worth fitting for general use.
You can't fix the missile damage formula by tweaking clip size and reload times. |
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Kane Fenris
NWP
114
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:21:00 -
[171] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload.
this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade Space Wolves Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:21:00 -
[172] - Quote
I hate this idea intensely. Being a newish player (between 3 and 4 months) I was planning on using RHMLs as a transition weapon as I train for other battleship sized weapons for PVE. This pretty much ruins that idea. Now these weapons will only be a decent option for fleet pvp. That's a really bad move in my eyes. |
Justin Einstein
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:24:00 -
[173] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. why are you still doing lev II missions?
Ive been playing on and off for about a year now. These last few weeks I have just started grinding L2s. I actually just got my first BC. (Drake) |
Justin Einstein
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:27:00 -
[174] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload. this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.
Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1634
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:30:00 -
[175] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:If anything should have a "burst" mechanic with a long reload time, it should be remote reps.
=D
=D
=D
=D |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade Space Wolves Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:31:00 -
[176] - Quote
Justin Einstein wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Justin Einstein wrote:The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think. I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload. this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload. Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec.
And let's not forget wasted volleys as someone else kills the target while your missiles are on their way. Those are going to be truly agonizing with these things. |
Nantwig Mutbrecht
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
If Defender missiles actually worked, it would be funny to see how this would affect them.
curius idea, i'm excited to try them out. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:35:00 -
[178] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload. I think you missed the point in my response. You'll only need a few volleys (at most) to kill most ship types in an L2, which means with a 35% improvement to rate of fire you can more quickly dispense any ships aggro'ing you. With maximum skills, a minimum of 3 ballistic controllers and +3/+5 damage/rate-of-fire implants I think you'll be looking at under 2 seconds per volley with Caldari Navy faction RLMLs (since it's about 3-seconds for me now). Faction launchers hold a bit more ammunition (my guestimate would be about 25 rounds). That translates into roughly 50 seconds of rapid firing before reload. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12292
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:36:00 -
[179] - Quote
GallowsCalibrator wrote:Lots of people not getting the potential of front-loaded dps against smaller targets in this thread I think.
This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
466
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:39:00 -
[180] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets. (cough) GǪ ganking GǪ (cough) Some of us do see the potential, even with the changes as proposed. |
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