You both OBVIOUSLY don't get it.

Like, at all. You have this ridiculous "Saturday morning cartoon villain" vision of what motives people have for thinking a certain way.

And your post do not explain anything about "the true nullsec" mindset, it actualy sems to confirm what the poster above you wrote.
If you do not want to give meaningful answers then please do not add to the pile-up.

You want an explanation?
Okay... try this one on for size.....

People that lack a sense of entitlement tend to get VERY annoyed at CONSTANTLY hearing those who DO have a sense of entitlement, whine about freakin EVERYTHING THAT DOESN'T GO THEIR WAY.....
When dudes in nullsec have to constantly work to hold onto everything they have.... that's called "doing it for yourself".
When dudes hang out in protected areas, reaping the benefits of a strict set of rules... that's called "assisted living".

It doesn't take a Libertarian to figure this junk out.

Null people are like a kid who broke his own toy and is jealous about another kid that still has a new, shiny toy. In the kid's mind, the only way to happiness is to grab that shiny toy and break it so both kids are in equal misery.

But you are not against hiseccers then, you are against the very concept of hisec.
This is something you need to petition CCP for if you want hisec to disappear.

And as far as entitlement go, care to tell me again why nullsec ores saw tritanium and pyerite be added to their refining process ?
No entitled at all, of course.

direction of Rubicon

I'm against the people, yes. Not the good ones that quietly go about their lives, not trying to impose their playstyle onto everyone. But the truly terrible ones that demand everything be handed to them, unleash a constant string of terrible F&I posts demanding that anything combat-related be nerfed into irrelevance or completely removed from the game... the ones who petition their stuff back when they lost it through their own lapse of judgement or failure to pay attention.

I'm against anyone who demands that I get slapped with a temp ban because I opened fire on their mining barge in lowsec. I live in that system... I have some damn good reasons for shooting the newbies and miners that I find in my static belts. I'm not sharing that reason with you because that would take an entire thread of its own to explain, but there's a damn good reason, no less... and it's not because I'm "griefing" or "looking for an easy target". I prefer an even match to taking out a week-old toon in a dessie, any day. But I will defend my system.

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec?

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

Many posts.

If what you say is true, then you seems to be among a minority of low/null sec players.
Most of them are gladly saying that they gank for the "tears" as they call it and for the egoboost they get out of a bloated killboard, to many it is a childish attitude.

On a personnal level, I toyed for a time with the idea of going solo mining in low sec systems, but even if it is doable in the end it is not really worth it, the problem not being the mining itself but the hauling of the ore.

Serious question: If you think that most Null sec alliances and Low sec alliances are basically people with similar mindsets.

Does that mean for example that CVA and Goonswarm are in your eyes one and the same?

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

When you draw a circle on the ground, then tell a person they can do anything they want anywhere they want EXCEPT inside that circle - all their attention will go to that circle. Figure out how it applies to eve

Also OP: Did you even read the Malcanis article you linked?

If you did, you obviously only focused on the half dealing with high sec and completely ignored the half dealing with null sec.
Because the whole article actually revolved around why threads like this are stupid.

When dudes in nullsec have to constantly work to hold onto everything they have.... that's called "doing it for yourself".
When dudes hang out in protected areas, reaping the benefits of a strict set of rules... that's called "assisted living".

It doesn't take a Libertarian to figure this junk out.

I really do think the POCO changes and the siphons are both intended by CCP to give things for highsec players to do besides mine and run missions. I think they imagine highsec corps warring over POCOs, and highsec thieves venturing out into low and null to ninja harvest moon minerals. Whether those will be the actual uses of the tools they've delivered or not is subject to debate, but I really do believe that those are their intentions.

Sov null is safe as kittens compared to living in high sec these days.

Low and NPC null is where you have to pay a little attention and have a little situational awareness.

Basically the players in sov that play the forum more than the game due to to sheer boredom of living there are doing most of the whining. They don't really care about high sec. They just want to cry about something and high sec is an easy target.

Mr Epeen

Rubicon makes me nervous because of the POCO change and the 'no turning back' slogan. I guess we'll find out what that means soon enough.

And your post do not explain anything about "the true nullsec" mindset, it actualy sems to confirm what the poster above you wrote.
If you do not want to give meaningful answers then please do not add to the pile-up.

Meaningful answers require meaningful questions.

You speak as if we all don't have access to dotlan and can't do the simple math that would refute your claims. Or maybe you speak as if you can't do those things and are going purely by conjecture. I can't really tell.

EVE in general is a pretty boring game most of the time

You are wrong. EVE is a fun game most of the time. Bashing stuff with subcaps is not a fun game. Waiting for a ping to happen is not a fun game. Being a random F1 basher is not a fun game. I liked Vee's Fleets tho.

Vee's fleets are not up most of the time. Thanks for making my point for me?

In sov null you have snowball fights. Everyone knows what's up and prepares their little pile of snow to throw at each other and then go home when they get tired.

In high sec you get mugged. A bunch of thugs jump out of an ally and destroy you with no warning. You don't have the option of going home (except in a pod, if you are so lucky to still be in one).

Like I said. Safe as kittens.

Mr Epeen

But if high sec is made easier for people from low/null sec to get into, does the challenge diminish? I suspect there is a split, those who enjoy the challenge of high sec ganking, and those who just enjoy the tears. The former may relish an increase in difficulty but the latter?

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

The guy on the first page pretty much had it right. They're one and the same.

The "challenge" comes from climbing the giant wall of game mechanics you all have whined up over time to protect yourselves, and slapping your privilege in the face. And then hopefully you cry about it, which makes it all the more fun for me.

I don't hate noobs. I don't (generally) hate industrial style players. I do however despite the entitlement mindset that SOOOO many highsec players have. This is not a single player game, and the deeper you bury your head in the sand and pretend that it is, the more I want to dig you up and demonstrate otherwise.

This is not a single player game, and the deeper you bury your head in the sand and pretend that it is, the more I want to dig you up and demonstrate otherwise.

Null is bored because nobody fights there any more. It's because it's too safe now. It's never been so safe in fact

Nerf null!

But it is single player? Just me and my alt vs everyone else? Learn to EvE.

Also, come at me

You people will say any dumb thing that comes into your heads, won't you?

Cry moar goonie

Grr High Sec

Null people are like a kid who broke his own toy and is jealous about another kid that still has a new, shiny toy. In the kid's mind, the only way to happiness is to grab that shiny toy and break it so both kids are in equal misery.

Null is bored because nobody fights there any more. It's because it's too safe now. It's never been so safe in fact

Nerf null!

Basically this. They got bored due to lack of adrenaline and wants to bring it to hisec. Its 100% legit on their way but CCP should make keeping nullsec areas under control much more challenging so they had to really work towards keeping it. They would less bored having to defend themselves constantly. Forcing PVP coaltions to fight for null and low sec or lose it.

...
You want an explanation?
Okay... try this one on for size.....

People that lack a sense of entitlement tend to get VERY annoyed at CONSTANTLY hearing those who DO have a sense of entitlement, whine about freakin EVERYTHING THAT DOESN'T GO THEIR WAY.....
When dudes in nullsec have to constantly work to hold onto everything they have.... that's called "doing it for yourself".
When dudes hang out in protected areas, reaping the benefits of a strict set of rules... that's called "assisted living".

It doesn't take a Libertarian to figure this junk out.

That's why these threads are stupid, there's SO MUCH ROOM OUT THERE. Giant swathes of sov null are jumpover ghost towns, but it's all owned and you can't have it.

While true, most of that space is worthless. Space above -0.8 truesec is garbage; you can eke a living out of a -0.6 system but it's only marginally better than running hisec missions.

I can't see how it can be that worthless if you keep paying the bills to keep sov

Maybe it has other worth that isn't obvious to mission runner types?

I can't see how it can be that worthless if you keep paying the bills to keep sov

Maybe it has other worth that isn't obvious to mission runner types?

Because leaving a bunch of your own systems without sov gives hostiles a great place to stage an invasion?

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

So it's about being safer then, as you see it? I guess there are nice moons about too. Then of course, opportunities for rentals and such.

So well worth it then really!

What does that have to do with a system being populated or otherwise? If there's nothing that encourages players to live in a system, they won't.

The only effect sov has on moon mining is the fuel reduction.

If you post more than once in this thread you need to find a play style in EvE you enjoy.

Citation needed for CCP destroying highsec. Rubicon is about players moving away from being controlled by the Empires.

Alternatively, it could be about GRRRR GEWNS and CCP are going to drop swarms of bees in rifters outside every undock and gate in highsec on 19th November.

High sec just makes people so angry.

Angry I tell you. They smash things and burst into tears they are so angry at high sec.

If you post more than once in this thread you need to find a play style in EvE you enjoy.

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

correction,

Nullsec players already OWN and Conquer Highsec, you dont fight back, when we come in blobs, or when we terroize you miners with suicide gankage, or when we just do kill every freighter in jita week.

Nullsec is supposed to be more profitable than highsec. Otherwise there is no point of nullsec.

So yes nullsec players should care about highsec.

I thought null sec was the end game for extreme e-peen. See that space, it has my name on it.

Nullsec'ers ate my baby.

No such thing as endgame in EVE. ~Nerf Highsec~

I thought null sec was the end game for extreme e-peen. See that space, it has my name on it.

If you post more than once in this thread you need to find a play style in EvE you enjoy.

Sov null is safe as kittens compared to living in high sec these days.

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

also, non-populated systems with moon mining?

is this the large nullbear tears thread

Nullsec is supposed to be more profitable than highsec. Otherwise there is no point of nullsec.

So yes nullsec players should care about highsec.

This is something I just don't get. Shouldn't it be about fun, not about profit.

Sure you need some amount of isk to survive, but after that, why would you do something boring for profit if you could do something fun instead?

This is something I just don't get. Shouldn't it be about fun, not about profit.

Sure you need some amount of isk to survive, but after that, why would you do something boring for profit if you could do something fun instead?

Well I've seen PL anchoring moon mining operations in low sec before. I find it hard to believe that those null sec systems you call worthless have no good moons in them.

I could always come and scout them out and pop some siphons on the nice ones to help you with your population issues.

oh no not siphons anything but siphons please don't even mention siphons lest i succumb to the vapors

I love the idea of siphons.

Ever since the end of the Fountain Campaign, I have had a single request for Dear Leader: to give me just one more region to siege. In eight days, I will have the whole world to siege. I am beside myself with glee.

I'm going to sit on the sidelines and watch you Goons use the siphons (that are supposed to let all of these little people take it to "the man" which at this point is Goons) to school people on the truth known as "Malcanis' Law".

Several of our good posters tried to warn the public forums that this would happen, and pubbies kept snickering and saying something along the lines of "goonie tears."

So because CCP tricked a bunch of High sec people to jump into Null sec to then get slaughtered by its local denizens, you derive that Null sec wants to conquer High sec?

I'm going to sit on the sidelines and watch you Goons use the siphons (that are supposed to let all of these little people take it to "the man" which at this point is Goons) to school people on the truth known as "Malcanis' Law".

This will be the most hilarious of all.

I know, I was watcing those threads and wondering how in the high hell could people be that short sighted. The Siphon will allow you guys and guys like you to directly affect your opponents moon goo operations WITHOUT a boring and equipment intensive operation to reinforce or kill a POS. And all the alts you have means all you'll have to do is have guys log in like once a day to pop siphons and you're immune to them basically.

And there are a LOT you you guys lol, it wouldn't take a lot of your members relatively speaking to wall paper large parts of moon-space with siphons. That fact and the fact that siphons destroy moon goo due to it being "lost in transit" means you can affect the prices of things without having to "interdict" or "ageddon" anything in high sec.

And it took me all of 5 seconds to figure out the above while the rabid goon haters were celebrating your imminent demise. The fools.

As far as Rubicon and the proposed changes to status ... I have no problems with the few PI planets I have in 0.5 systems going to a lower sec status providing the resources increase to match my 0.2 and 0.3 planets.

Down Khanid way there are a lot of mini losec "islands" of one or two systems and I assume these will all be now linked as a continuous stretch of losec, that may well be a good thing for anyone trying to get serious work done as there will be fewer gatecamp systems enroute.

Oooh, going into lowsec, how ~daring~

well ... live in losec with the alt in question

... and never see many null people .. just locals and highsec people

... and when on occasion we go into null to ninja or gank miners they see a neutral in system and run and hide :D

People who actually play the game don't appear to have any hatred or desire to destroy anything. I think the OPs question was a little loaded and assumes much. I'll always be first to point out the contradictions of nullsec rage and complaints, but even this is a bit much of a blanket statement.

Dude stop it just stop. Stop making those topic. Just stop it. This is your 20ste post.... or so. Same topic over and over again.

You never played on a PVP server before....

They don't want to take it over, they just want to kill people. It doesn't matter if its in the ass end of null, or in the newbie system 1.0 with a 3 minute old player.

Corpse is a corpse.

(it ain't about fair fights, its about fights, period).

Actually, I don't think this is entirely true for Eve. A 3 minute old player doesn't have the sense of entitlement you'll find in a 3 year old highsec miner, who will act like a literal 3 year old over even the most trivial things like ship bumping. Those are the people who are fun to kill in "unfair" fights.

I can no longer live this lie.

You are right, OP.

2 weeks ago there was a mandatory meeting for -ALL- Null sec pilots to attend.

There the GBNSC [the Global Directors of the Null Sec Cartels] informed us that the time to strike was upon us.
The years of mock battles and fake practise wars has trained us for this very moment.
Years we pretended that we were all fighting one another when in actuality, we were just preparing.
Burn Jita? The Hulkagedons? ...All just small experiments to locate cracks in the armour.

But now its time...

On the 12th of December, the blue donut will finally reveal itself and crush the High sec forces and their pathetic Concord overlords!


Prepare yourself, OP...Null sec is coming...

O joy. And after you conquer high sec then what? Get bored with nothing to do and go back to WoW?

O joy. And after you conquer high sec then what? Get bored with nothing to do and go back to WoW?

The dont want to conquer just break it so that people in hi-sec are just as misserable as they are.

It amazes me the things people need to delude themselves into believing just to play a space video game.

Here's a real answer for you:

All actions in this game have consequences.

You may think you live in your own little world in highsec but the actions you take have effects on the ways that other people play the game. You may not be able to see the effects by yourself but if you group together the actions of like-minded players you can see that there are huge changes that may not necessarily be in the game's best interest.

Nullsec is not looking to conquer highsec. Nullsec is looking to have existing content balanced to make the game more fair and entertaining for everyone, and that starts by accepting that all actions have consequences.

It amazes me the things people need to delude themselves into believing just to play a space video game.

I really do think the POCO changes and the siphons are both intended by CCP to give things for highsec players to do besides mine and run missions. I think they imagine highsec corps warring over POCOs, and highsec thieves venturing out into low and null to ninja harvest moon minerals. Whether those will be the actual uses of the tools they've delivered or not is subject to debate, but I really do believe that those are their intentions.

If this is true, which by the way i doubt, then CCP has a serious lack of understanding of what kind of game he highsec crowd wants and is willing to play.

..... it sounds like there needs to be more in low/null sec. One to give them something else to do and two, to tempt more people into those areas.

I don't think the game should force people out of high sec (stick), I think it should tempt them out of high sec (carrot) but if someone wants to spend a few hours a day manufacturing, hauling, mining etc this should be feasible (there is obviously still a certain level of risk anyway).

LOL good one.

I agree with this general statement, the problem with this game right now isnt the highsec game it is the low / nullsec game. Im not sure what the fix is but low / null is definitely where the problem exists.

Well to start with most of null is worthless space that generates less income than even the worst high sec system with a level 4 agent in it.

You both OBVIOUSLY don't get it.

Like, at all. You have this ridiculous "Saturday morning cartoon villain" vision of what motives people have for thinking a certain way.

Well to start with most of null is worthless space that generates less income than even the worst high sec system with a level 4 agent in it.

Disagree with all of the above, I've earned shitloads of cash in null, and out earn any and every l4 mission I've done. That's because I don't safespot when people come through where I am operating. Cos I'm not a carebear.

I will finish by saying that Null Sec isn't about the money, that would be stupid, you go to null for freedom. The absolute freedom to do what you like, the consequences of which are your own...

Way to miss the point. What does what you posted have to do with the value of most null sec systems?

And yes, people go to null for the freedom, but they have to PAY for it somehow. For the average player, that means mining or ratting/exploration. After the anom nerf, the majority null sec system can't provide for one person the same kind of income over time a single high sec system with a lvl 4 mission agent can.

And that mission agent doesn't care if multiple people use him at once (he can give out infinite missions), even the best upgraded sov null system has a concrete upper limit on how many people it can support (ie, take the number of hubs, havens and sanctums that system will spawn, multiply by 2 and blam, you got the "better than high sec lvl 4s profitability limit of that system).

You want an explanation?
Okay... try this one on for size.....

People that lack a sense of entitlement tend to get VERY annoyed at CONSTANTLY hearing those who DO have a sense of entitlement, whine about freakin EVERYTHING THAT DOESN'T GO THEIR WAY.....
When dudes in nullsec have to constantly work to hold onto everything they have.... that's called "doing it for yourself".
When dudes hang out in protected areas, reaping the benefits of a strict set of rules... that's called "assisted living".

It doesn't take a Libertarian to figure this junk out.

Hi Jen, not to be disrespectful, but I think you've misunderstood me. I am saying that null is more profitable than high sec if you stick around and take risks. Different things motivate different people, so for me freedom is important. I appreciate that some people are attracted to the big money of null as a carrot vs stick argument, but I personally find that some people (and I am not including you in this group) want the rewards of null without the risk.

I understand that, people all over the game want rewards without risk. I don't safe up either, I tend to do my thing in ships fit for the purpose of null. What I was responding to was the bolded part, that has nothing to do with what Baltec1 was saying. Baltec was explaining that most of sov null sec is nearly worthless.

apologies jen, i totally missed the bold, I agree you've got to pick the most valuable systems in null to earn well, apologies again for misunderstanding, English is not my first language when I get tired I miss the nuances occasionally.

Hi Jen, not to be disrespectful, but I think you've misunderstood me. I am saying that null is more profitable than high sec if you stick around and take risks. Different things motivate different people, so for me freedom is important. I appreciate that some people are attracted to the big money of null as a carrot vs stick argument, but I personally find that some people (and I am not including you in this group) want the rewards of null without the risk.

Some individuals make a lot of isk in null, but the individual systems themselves are very difficult to characterise as more profitable than highsec, especially with the low *effort* moongoo nerfed.

Way to miss the point. What does what you posted have to do with the value of most null sec systems?

And yes, people go to null for the freedom, but they have to PAY for it somehow. For the average player, that means mining or ratting/exploration. After the anom nerf, the majority null sec system can't provide for one person the same kind of income over time a single high sec system with a lvl 4 mission agent can.

And that mission agent doesn't care if multiple people use him at once (he can give out infinite missions), even the best upgraded sov null system has a concrete upper limit on how many people it can support (ie, take the number of hubs, havens and sanctums that system will spawn, multiply by 2 and blam, you got the "better than high sec lvl 4s profitability limit of that system).

So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?

No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.

goon tears about siphons eh

So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.

So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?

There seems to be this misconception that people who are part of a powerbloc are *forced to do their leaders bidding* like some mindless drones or in some theories Ive seen: against their will.

Contrary to populair belief: If someone doesnt enjoy their current corporation/alliance, they are free to leave.
If they dont leave, clearly they are having fun.

OP I would like to know how you made the logic leap from "capsuleers defying the empires" to "nullsec conquering highsec"

...
And yes, people go to null for the freedom...

...So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?

i guess 0.0 people should decide between themself why they are in 0.0 and what do they need BEFORE demanding anything from CCP

So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?

So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.

Tomorrow when one of my accounts is in need of more game time, i'ma right a letter to CCP detailing to them how I'm goin to use my "freedom" to buy plex instead of isk. I expect it to go over well.

BTW, what is the monetary value to you of the CONCORD protection and free docking rights to any station in high sec even if you have horrible standings to that faction that owns the station worth to you in isk?

I honestly think it has a lot to do with people wanting the game to be played how they want it to be played, forgetting entirely the nature of the sandbox - you do what you want, when you want.

Some of us just don't want to deal with null politics or mandatory ops, and others like Eve without dealing with the people trying to gank them on every gate. Personally I just like wandering around all threee K-space areas and seeing what I can find. Exploration for the time being is my thang, and to be honest I tend to my own thing a lot of the time. I like the freedom.

I need HS due to the fact I get anxiety bad. Really bad at times. If I lived all the time in Null or Low, I'd burn out on being so strung out, waiting for the next gate to be camped. I use HS as a place to chill out and play Eve when I don't want to be dealing with that.

Well I am saying freedom has a price. I mean I can't just go up to people in high sec and shoot people I don't like who interfere with my business. I can't prevent people from using up all my research, copying, and manufacturing slots in the NPC stations. Sure I am protected, but then I have to deal with people with 20 accounts and eat all the belts up in 15 minutes without being able to remove them from the belts.

Also, don't get me started about the people who use up all the planets PI.

Displaying the pretty standard "I can see MY disadvantages, but yours don't exist" mentality of many high sec residents.

Well I think you are displaying "I can't see MY advantages, but yours make me cry." type of null sec mentality.

Really, I don't expect you to see that your freedom is worth any amount of effort. Most people in so called democracies around the world don't see that freedom requires efforts and sacrifices. They would prefer more money anyways than freedom.

What bothers most people is thy see people who live in a different location and think to themselves they deserve as much money as they get because they sacrifice more. Hrm... This is one of those human bias things so I can understand why you would never be able to wrap your head around it. Its ok. Your human. You will always think the grass is greener on the other side no matter how much herbicide you get the powers to be to dump on that said lawn.

You will always hate high sec and it will always make you hot and bothered.

But you and I will be playing Star Citizen in 10 years because they shut down the EVE servers anyways so its a moot point.

I'm on a roll today.

I don't think anyone wants to conquer hisec per se...but in the eyes of most null pilots, hisec is ripe for a culling. Don't deny it. If you fly through hisec how often do you wish you could just arbitrarily open your guns up on anyone and everyone.

It seems to me CCP understands that a status quo is boring. The poco thing is a great way to shake up high sec and I would not be surprised if plans are already forming to break the relative peace in nul in the near future. This is good. When a sandbox becomes static it becomes a theme park.

This is left field nonsense. It would suggest I and people like me are looking for more money or a free ride. How obtuse could you be, did you not read my post and see me say exactly that?

This is proof is something I've always thought about you. you're prone to projection. You're the one living in EVE's welfare "everything is free yay" paradise.

That grass is greener quip is especially galling. How can the grass I'm standing on be greener?

I say that because I'm talking from a point of view of experiencing BOTH SIDES. I play in high sec about as much as I do in null. I'm as likely to be flying a machariel in a high sec incursion as I am doing a forsaken hub. And as someone who is on both sides of the grass, i'm telling you, high sec rewards are out of whack in regards to isk, effort and balance.

You can pretend you are joking, but the above is what you actually believe. You lack the ability to criticize your own ideas (if you did, you'd see the flaws before posting them), that's why you tend to be wrong.

Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.

Renter: someone who hasn't figured out how cloaks and wormholes work.

Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.

I used one for a shopping trip yesterday, and I've used one to do sansha exploration from my system, knowing that my end of the WH was covered by our intel channel.

Other advantages of being resident are docking rights and hardpoints like a pos, where I can store a pile of things that is too large to fit into your exploration ship like bubbles, spare ammo and drones, I can always fit or ship select to counter the hull you are flying, and I have a spare pile of ships, many of which have been brought out here purely for the purpose of engaging.

ie I can repeatedly seek engagements, and I can do easier PVE with a ship prepared to engage because even if I lose, I'll pop out again in the local station, and I'll get another ship and I'll do it again. Neutral traffic is lower in sov systems, and its more easily discouraged.

The tactical situation that faces you was well described by the german ww2 doctrine of cruiser warfare, and in the face of you attempting that, I'll adopt the successful british strategy of forcing material damage on you, which constrains your future actions.

Or, every part of space can be equally viable, and not with one head and shoulders above the rest?

The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.

I'm new, so I'm still trying to learn the mechanics, psychology and community of the game. I'm learning first hand what it's like to try to climb the massive learning curve and gain a foothold in high-sec. I only learn second hand about null and low via blogs and what that group posts on these forums or reddit. I posted that thread and the article because they show both sides of the argument which I think is valuable (especially to newer players like myself).

I'm sure it's not the opinion of everyone in null, but 'tear down these walls' is a common refrain. If you did, I think there would be almost no new players in Eve. I sure wouldn't have stayed past the trial if every time I undocked I was in the middle an alliance turf battle and had to pay a tax to both sides. Or shanghaied, given a cheap frigate and ordered to go out there and die.

Rubicon makes me nervous because of the POCO change and the 'no turning back' slogan. I guess we'll find out what that means soon enough.

Confirming, the OP did not get the point of Malcanis' article.

The truth is, that Null and High sec need each other. The only place to get things like T2 modules and hulls...high sec. The only place to get the inputs to make T2 modules and hulls...null sec.