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[CCP opinion requested] Remove learning implants from the game.

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Omega Tron 34	Posted - 2014.01.18 05:13:00 - [181] - Quote OK. So you've figured out why I no longer will play in NULL or LOW SEC. When I first started playing, back in the days when there was learning skills, I ran missions, and mined like crazy to buy a set of +6 implants to speed up my learning time. Then for several different days I tried to go ratting in a low sec system trying to increase my earning and ended up getting POD'd. I lost those implants and shortly after that CCP removed them from the game ( I think ). I have never gone back to low sec or null since. I have been gank'd in high sec several times but that has been for the most part, almost, years apart. Plenty of time has passed to allow for and easy recovery of the losses. So if they were to be come a permanent implant like the new AU-79 "Auroral", then I would be living in null instead. I endorse your idea. I think that once the learning implants are earned and installed they should then be a permanent part of the character. EVE Online is CCP's sand box. -áThe sand is owned by CCP. -áWe just get to pay them a monthly fee to throw the sand at each other. -áGet over your thoughts that you have some influence on what they will add or do for you.
Ordo Malus Shadows Of The Requiem The Unthinkables 21	Posted - 2014.01.18 06:28:00 - [182] - Quote Ive been playing since 2005 and every one of you crying about how good this idea is, is frankly rather pathetic. Eve is about choice. Its about loss vs gain. If you want to GAIN the advantage of implants you risk LOSS. I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. I don't cry when I lose implants, I simply buy more. I'm not rich, I accept that for my actions I have a potential reaction, ie losing implants when I'm in combat. Get the ** over it. I 100% agree that it is unfair to wormhole PvPers and as such Rorqs or other ships should be made adaptible to wormhole life to allow clone jumps, transfers, ect. As a verteran player of this game I am ***** sick of scrublord faggots crying about free handouts. This entire forum has been polluted with so much crying over "I want things easier" over the last month or so it's pathetic. -Nerf sentries -Make bumping bannable -Make bumping cause aggression -Prevent highsec aggression -Suicide ganking is unfair -Remove learning implants because I dont want to pay for them and risk losing them. This player base is turning into WoW.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 123	Posted - 2014.01.18 11:37:00 - [183] - Quote Ordo Malus wrote: Ive been playing since 2005 and every one of you crying about how good this idea is, is frankly rather pathetic. Eve is about choice. Its about loss vs gain. If you want to GAIN the advantage of implants you risk LOSS. I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. I don't cry when I lose implants, I simply buy more. I'm not rich, I accept that for my actions I have a potential reaction, ie losing implants when I'm in combat. Get the ** over it. I 100% agree that it is unfair to wormhole PvPers and as such Rorqs or other ships should be made adaptible to wormhole life to allow clone jumps, transfers, ect. As a verteran player of this game I am ***** sick of scrublord faggots crying about free handouts. This entire forum has been polluted with so much crying over "I want things easier" over the last month or so it's pathetic. -Nerf sentries -Make bumping bannable -Make bumping cause aggression -Prevent highsec aggression -Suicide ganking is unfair -Remove learning implants because I dont want to pay for them and risk losing them. This player base is turning into WoW. Totally agree here, I want the choice and the attribute implants give me that. I can't afford +5's yet. Do I care? nope, I learn fast enough right now, the extra +2 on each skill would be nice but wouln't make a massive difference. When I can afford them will I by them? Damn right I will, but them I'll have earned them and will fly a ship much more likely to discourage gankers.. If I can't afford to lose the implants I shouldn't buy them in the first place. I want choice in this game, I like being able to fine tune. Most of my ideas here are about providing more choice so I'm intrinsically opposed to anything that gives less choice without a &very* good reason.
Bertrand Butler Cras es Noster 143	Posted - 2014.01.18 11:58:00 - [184] - Quote Really, nobody gives a flying **** about what you personally want guys. Learning skills also gave us "more choice". I don't think that one can argue that their removal from a game was a bad move. The question is whether the removal of learning implants would result in a desirable AND measurable increase of player generated content. I really think it wont, for two reasons: 1. Risk aversion is a mentality problem entrenched in the player base that practices it. 2. Barring WHs (sth should really be done about them), jump clone specialization and use removes much of the problems learning implants bring to the table.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 873	Posted - 2014.01.18 12:13:00 - [185] - Quote I think there should be a new set of pirate learning implants added to the game that just provide attributes like the regular learning implants, but are cheaper and also illegal, so CONCORD will rip them out of your head if you take em into highsec. That way you can have implants while you PVP, if you are willing to spend some money, without it being a ridiculously high monetary expenditure (unless you PVP in highsec). This would help to make training implant costs between highseccers and non-highseccers more even, without removing the risk vs reward aspect of using implants. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 22	Posted - 2014.01.18 13:15:00 - [186] - Quote Ordo Malus wrote: Ive been playing since 2005 and every one of you crying about how good this idea is, is frankly rather pathetic. Eve is about choice. Its about loss vs gain. If you want to GAIN the advantage of implants you risk LOSS. I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. I don't cry when I lose implants, I simply buy more. I'm not rich, I accept that for my actions I have a potential reaction, ie losing implants when I'm in combat. Get the ** over it. I 100% agree that it is unfair to wormhole PvPers and as such Rorqs or other ships should be made adaptible to wormhole life to allow clone jumps, transfers, ect. As a verteran player of this game I am ***** sick of scrublord faggots crying about free handouts. This entire forum has been polluted with so much crying over "I want things easier" over the last month or so it's pathetic. -Nerf sentries -Make bumping bannable -Make bumping cause aggression -Prevent highsec aggression -Suicide ganking is unfair -Remove learning implants because I dont want to pay for them and risk losing them. This player base is turning into WoW. I see a bitterwet crying about possibility of someone catching up to him, caring about highsec above all things despite claiming to be a nullbear, and throwing in some wh chatter to pretend he's making sense. I like the idea. Learning implants prevent action, that's for sure. Your 4% implants will remain a meaningful choice, what should get hit is +4, not +4% ones...
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 120	Posted - 2014.01.18 14:45:00 - [187] - Quote Icarus Able wrote: Kirkwood Ross wrote: People who have crystal, slave, snakes, etc don't pvp as much either. Should those implants be removed? Your missing the point. Nope. Those with high value implants don't suicide or engage as much as people with low value or no implants. Same goes for pilots with expensive ships and modules. They pick targets that are guaranteed kills then skitter off.
JamnOne Jammin Corp 15	Posted - 2014.01.18 15:10:00 - [188] - Quote I remember when I first started playing this game I was told - "don't fly what you can't afford to lose." Now you might be asking, how does this relate to "learning" implants. Simple, if you can't afford to lose them, don't put them in your head. Yes, I agree you are leaving SP on the table if you use +3 instead of +5. That is okay. You will get to a point to where you can afford to have them in your head and if you get popped you just get more. As for the idea that people won't fly in low or null because of what is in their head, I know individuals who have this mentality. They use jump clones with either lower grade implants or the ones that give additional bonuses like Slave implants. This way they still learn and enjoy the game. They have come to the conclusion that it is risk vs reward. Is it risky to fly in low or null? Yes! Regardless of the implants or ships you maybe flying. But the reward is worth it. Plus, look at the adrenaline rush you get when trying to save your ship first and then realizing you need to save what is in your head. I can not support this idea of removing implants from the game. It will reduce the risk vs reward concept and it could actually reduce the enjoyment of some players who like the adrenaline rush trying to save what is in their head.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 125	Posted - 2014.01.18 16:57:00 - [189] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: I see a bitterwet crying about possibility of someone catching up to him, caring about highsec above all things despite claiming to be a nullbear, and throwing in some wh chatter to pretend he's making sense. I like the idea. Learning implants prevent action, that's for sure. Your 4% implants will remain a meaningful choice, what should get hit is +4, not +4% ones... I'm no vet by any means and I can not support removing choice from the game. Learning implant do not prevent action, players not flying prevents action. If you can't afford to lose higher implant don't buy them. I fly with +3's, will upgrade when I can afford more, and simply accept the learning time cost in the meantime. There is no need to 'catch up' to vet characters in SP terms, and to my mind you should never to be able to. What is unique to Eve (from my limited experience) is that you can catch up or even surpass an older character in any specific area you specialize into if you train skills to a higher level.
Ancient Soule Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.01.18 17:56:00 - [190] - Quote Are you new to the game too? I just started playing and was wondering the same thing until I understood what jump clones were for. With jump clones you can basically have multiple clones of yourself that each have different implants for different purposes. For example if you want to go into PvP you might want to use cheap but effective implants and hardwirings to boost your performance. If you want to do mining, you can have a different jump clone for that as well. If you are going to be inactive for a while, you can switch to a jump clone with +4 or even +5 implants to increase your training speed. In a way jump clones are really awesome because you can have up to 10 of them I think and you can kind of collect them for various purposes. You could even invest in "backup" clones say you only need 2 different types you could still make more as backup so you don't have to buy the implants and hardwirings again just for convenience. Although it would be nice if jump clones were easier to get. I think needing a 8.0 with NPC corp or someone with a capital ship with clone vat bay is kind of annoying. I don't really want to do missions I want to delve in exploration. Here is the info I read about jump clones if anyone needs it: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jump_clones

Clem Fandango Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 25	Posted - 2014.01.18 18:17:00 - [191] - Quote Ordo Malus wrote: I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. Really? Your killboard doesn't corroborate that statement.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 125	Posted - 2014.01.18 18:31:00 - [192] - Quote Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what? The reward is some fun flying without risking your implants. The only change I would find acceptable to mitigate this perceived issue of not flying due to expensive implants (which I don;t think should be bought if they will stop you flying) would be to change the skill that speeds up jump times to reduce the time between jumps by 3 hours per level. Then you can explore for a day and switch back afterwards.
Dave Stark 4237	Posted - 2014.01.18 18:46:00 - [193] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what? but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed? between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was only going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP"
Ancient Soule Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.01.18 19:51:00 - [194] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what? but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed? between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was only going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP" I wanted to play this game because I heard it highly in regards to being dynamic and making choices risk vs reward etc. This is not only a bad idea but CCP is doing the exact opposite and trying to make highsec more dynamic as we speak. So much that capsuleers are starting to take power away from the empires if you watch the latest trailer. What this idea is proposing is to make something that is dynamic that requires a choice to be made to be static instead of dynamic. That is why this thread will not receive a response by CCP because it's the opposite of what they are doing right now. If you want to read a good idea, under commonly suggested thread, there are tons of suggestions and a great one for implants and hardwirings. They are proposing an idea to have 5 extra implant slots and 5 extra hardwiring slots. That idea I can understand because in the case of the OP having an issue with not wanting to loose money, you could essentially have cheap training implants such as +2 and then combat implants that also have +2 giving you combat advantage and +4 to skills. That is an actual reasonable idea. This idea takes away choices and a dynamic system that works well. By this theory people should have permanent implants that also boost combat effectiveness or mining effectiveness. This is not hard to understand. It's simple Pokemon tactics. The more things you collect the more powerful and diverse your skillset becomes. For example having jump clones for various purposes is similar to collecting Pokemon that have different advantages and weaknesses. Pokemon was highly influential to video games and these tactics are employed in every MMO.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 125	Posted - 2014.01.19 11:42:00 - [195] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what? but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed? between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was only going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP" I see that you have the option to make a choice and are exercising that choice. I make a different choice. In all honesty i cannot think of a single skill that will ruin the game for me if i don't gain it a few days sooner!
Ordo Malus Shadows Of The Requiem The Unthinkables 24	Posted - 2014.01.19 11:50:00 - [196] - Quote Clem Fandango wrote: Ordo Malus wrote: I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. Really? Your killboard doesn't corroborate that statement. Here, a link to my main. https://zkillboard.com/character/1889368587/ Feel free to explore pod kills. You'll find +3 and +4 learning implants here and there. You'll find blank clones too. If I expect to die, I'm not at all adverse to removing implants prior to the fight to deny the lossmail. Cheers,
Wight Boley Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.01.19 11:57:00 - [197] - Quote I think a reduction to minimum jump clone time would be better. And this could be tied to a skill I suppose. Reducing jump clone cooldown would likely achieve the same result of encouraging players to PvP more, while maintaining the learning implants which are a nice thing to "earn".
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 125	Posted - 2014.01.19 12:34:00 - [198] - Quote The skill exists already but only drops the jump time by one hour per level
Dave Stark 4271	Posted - 2014.01.19 12:39:00 - [199] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what? but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed? between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was only going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP" I see that you have the option to make a choice and are exercising that choice. I make a different choice. In all honesty i cannot think of a single skill that will ruin the game for me if i don't gain it a few days sooner! sure it's a choice. it doesn't mean it's a fun or interesting one.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 125	Posted - 2014.01.19 13:00:00 - [200] - Quote True enough which is why i choose to fly around with +3's and do the more fun and interesting stuff whilst waiting the extra few days training to do other fun and interesting stuff. To me SP's are a means to an end. A 3 month old character with maxwd out interceptor skills can gain just as much enjoyment as a 100 mil SP character. Question: if you could jump clones each 9 hours would you fly more? I mean drop your +5 clone to a +3 one temporarily?

Aliventi Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous 646	Posted - 2014.02.16 07:04:00 - [201] - Quote Still wish CCP would implement this. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me
epicurus ataraxia Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 652	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:19:00 - [202] - Quote Ok here is an option that resolves all the issues. Allow the switching to a station provided zero implant clone at any time in the same station , with med facilities,with a 4 hour cooloff per change. Cost 2.5m isk per swap.uses one of your infomorph psycology "slots". clone large enough to preserve skill points at the point of switching. Risk vs reward, loss of advanced training rate and attribute gains while in zero implant clone,loss of training if killed in the clone that you learnt while in it. one less implanted clone available. reward:- jump in and kill stuff!. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
DSpite Culhach 278	Posted - 2014.02.16 11:37:00 - [203] - Quote https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator CCP already set a precedent. It would not be unreasonable to have BOTH the current system, and a new tech improved version of temporary boosting implants that: 1) Give bonuses as the current implants do. 2) Do not get destroyed on clone death 3) Have a negative balancing effect, are high cost, expire after a number of days, or whatever is needed for balance. I'm sure that even the most bitter players in this thread could not object to negatives being introduced as they want "consequences to every choice" and you could have some rather nifty negatives. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html
Motoko Innocentius Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2014.02.16 12:14:00 - [204] - Quote I will have to agree with the op on this matter, learning implants give newer players the most problems, as an older player, I rarely have learning implants in my head anymore and if I have I don't really care if I lose them. Having good income negates the penalty for losing learning implants and when you hit the point at which you've skilled most of your skills to a level you like theres really not much of an incentive to use learning implants. Sure maybe that capital remote cap transfer skill takes somedays longer to get to lvl 5 but it doesn't really matter. And then theres the alts you rarely use who are always in +5 implants, they get the gain all the time and theres no risk of losing em. From my perspective, abolishing them or simply creating a learning booster that gives +n to all attributes would be better in my perspective, the booster itself would last for a week, month or something and not get destroyed when podded. But basicly what i'm saying is that something does need to happen to this situation, isk sinks can be created and implants aren't a huge one at that. Having highsec dwellers go into lowsec and null without fear of losing implants would be great. I'd also like to underline that this is about learning implants, all the other implants and hardwirings should stay as they are atm.
Lavitakus Bromier The Scope Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:35:00 - [205] - Quote my only issue is how will newer piolets compete against year(s) old vets. simple put they cant. unlike other mmos were u can grind to max lv. eve is time based. without 'help' newer players dont really stand a chance. i like the idea but u need a solution instead of making every body 'even' i like the idea of a 'booster' type item u inject and have a boost for a mounth or so. and it stays even if u get podded. but that doesnt make to much sense i inject drugs and when i die they fallow me through the cosmos to my new clone. or my personal fav. give us dock options like a lab that boost science or a library that boost intelagence, sell dock spaces, when u start out u get 1 addition room, or u buy a upgrade now u have 2 rooms, 3...4 ext. can have eve players produce 'ROOM cubes' and sell them. isk sink by selling Larger dock apartments. fees to add a room type. if done right u make it so u can get a max of 4 or so that way u dont get a boost in every feild idk ill have to thimk about that more. soo tired
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 580	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:49:00 - [206] - Quote Factual part: I entered w-space after 3 months of play and never left. It never occurred to me to change clones for pvp. I pvp with learning implants in. It's only 40 million if you get podded - nothing compared to the rest of the ship. It's never seemed like a lot of money. Humorous part: You poofs need to grow a pair. Get your implants in and jump into a wormhole today. If you want someone to hold your hand, join our public chat. Opinion Part: Learning implants represent a trade-off decision for the player. Money or time? Risk (money) and reward (more SP). Trade-offs make for more interesting and varied play. They are good for eve. Frankly, you only ever need to have 2 implants in at a time since you're usually learning either support skills or gunnery + ships. Sometimes I even forget to wear them and I don't really notice. After 3 years of play waiting a few more days for minmatar BS 5 didn't really change my game. They are actually more useful for young players than old ones, and it's a natural feature of being young that you have to take a few risks to get ahead. Cynical Part: learning implants are a currency sink. All economies need a currency sink. Without them people become comfortable and retire early. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2038	Posted - 2014.02.16 14:54:00 - [207] - Quote Mournful Conciousness wrote: Factual part: I entered w-space after 3 months of play and never left. It never occurred to me to change clones for pvp. I pvp with learning implants in. It's only 40 million if you get podded - nothing compared to the rest of the ship. It's never seemed like a lot of money. Humorous part: You poofs need to grow a pair. Get your implants in and jump into a wormhole today. If you want someone to hold your hand, join our public chat. Opinion Part: Learning implants represent a trade-off decision for the player. Money or time? Risk (money) and reward (more SP). Trade-offs make for more interesting and varied play. They are good for eve. Frankly, you only ever need to have 2 implants in at a time since you're usually learning either support skills or gunnery + ships. Sometimes I even forget to wear them and I don't really notice. After 3 years of play waiting a few more days for minmatar BS 5 didn't really change my game. They are actually more useful for young players than old ones, and it's a natural feature of being young that you have to take a few risks to get ahead. Cynical Part: learning implants are a currency sink. All economies need a currency sink. Without them people become comfortable and retire early. If I could give more than one like I would. This covers it in a nutshell
Arsine Mayhem Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 129	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:11:00 - [208] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Still wish CCP would implement this. Would likely see more PVP going on. Actually I'm sure you would, because I'd be one. But this is the game they want. Sucks in so many ways.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 514	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:51:00 - [209] - Quote tell me why this isn't anything but a "waaaa .. they have something more expensive that I want but can't have because I get killed too often" post. You have the same ability to save for the implants and put them on a secure JC somewhere for long term training as needed. It's a good and useful part of the game. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2038	Posted - 2014.02.17 00:05:00 - [210] - Quote Barbara Nichole wrote: tell me why this isn't anything but a "waaaa .. they have something more expensive that I want but can't have because I get killed too often" post. You have the same ability to save for the implants and put them on a secure JC somewhere for long term training as needed. It's a good and useful part of the game. but hey while we're at the task of making unreasonable requests, lets do away with jump clones....and clone insurance so that you auto lose SP as you die.. and when you reach 0 sp your character is perma-dead..... Yes it pretty much is. It's the I can't afford to risk my implants to pvp but I have to use them because other people do. So if nobody can use implants then I won't either and can pvp more Sadly IMO the people with that mentality won't get out and pvp anyhow. I've lived in a wormhole for most of my eve life. I've never used above +3 implants and I've done fine.



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