At first, I came here to flame at you. But then I read you wall of text, and it totally makes sense.
Especially since I'm a wormholer (CCP dun wanna give us jumpclones hurdur).

The Rorqual can fit a clone vat, can't it?

Wonderful thing about wormhole space is that it doesn't work there.

Well that's a strange thing, considering mind transfer supposedly works via quantum entanglement...

Yes and a wormhole has no dimension being merely a folded piece of space time.
But it is ultimately a topographically definable fold.
Thus wh space actually exists within the quantum realm
Its universes all the way down boys.

People who have crystal, slave, snakes, etc don't pvp as much either. Should those implants be removed?

At first, I came here to flame at you. But then I read you wall of text, and it totally makes sense.
Especially since I'm a wormholer (CCP dun wanna give us jumpclones hurdur).

People who have crystal, slave, snakes, etc don't pvp as much either. Should those implants be removed?

This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it.
I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about.

They benefit the inactive/offline the most.

They benefit station campers the most.

They benefit carebears the most.

They benefit the rich most.

They benefit veterans the most.

They suffer the same downsides as did learning skills.

They suffer the additional downside of costing much thus not only do you need to focus your skills on cyber V first but you also need to save up for the implants immediately after as well, or fall behind.

You continually lose potential SP when actively playing the game with purpose built implants rather than pure learning implants.

Quite often I'm seeing myself staying docked and closing the client to train rather than play because I CBA. to change clone into less optimal learning implants and lose hours, possibly even days worth of SP because of that one or several gaming sessions.
Those who actually decide to go out and play, most notably interact in PvP and pod each other, those are the ones who suffer the real consequences, not only do they lose SP due to almost never having V's plugged in but they lose their IV's or III's when their pods pop. it makes little sense for a game supposed to promote PvP yet punish those who participate in it the most.

It is not an interesting nor exciting choice deciding to either play and lose efficiency or staying offline or docked while benefiting more, essentially playing 'optimally' when not playing.

What could be done is to remove the learning implants and make '+3 implants' baseline, people will rage about this but it's a reasonable suggestion, +5's made baseline might be just as fine a solution, I'm not sure, I'm just sure the learning implants must be removed.

Bottom line:
Rich inactive veteran station hugging carebears benefit the most
Poor active newbie proactive PvP'ers suffer the most

1) They're an ISK sink.
This is plainly obvious; Every time someone loses a pod with a head full of +3's or +4's they may very well be losing close to or more then 100M in ISK

2) They're a time sink (Yes, you read that correctly).

Can't we make our own implants as of Rubicon? Doesn't that completely invalidate your sink argument?


+1, BTW.

ISK changing hands from one player to another is not an ISK sink. An ISK sink is only when ISK gets moved out of player hands. Which means the only ISK sink from implant destruction is the cost of purchasing it at an LP store and the tax taken in market transactions.

Checking here: +4 implants only sink 12 million ISK each. That's 60mil for a full set, 48mil if they skip the charisma implant.
+3s sink 5.25 million ISK each.

At the same time, the ISK sink of people buying new clones will go up, because you've got more people losing pods in PvP. Still, if CCP need to introduce new ISK sinks they will.



How long will it take a player to train every ship useful to a 0.0 alliance, and all its supporting skills to 5 both with and without learning implants ?

If you want your timesink argument to be credible, you need to quantify the timesink.

No? The creation of implants will require materials, which take time and or risk to acquire. Just because something can be acquired doesn't mean it's loss doesn't constitute a sink..

...

No. But they should have their attribute bonus reduced to 0 at the same time as the learning implants get removed.

It's only a sink if it is removed from the economy. If a player harvests the materials, builds the implant and then sells it on the market, the ISK moves from one player to another, not a player to nonexistence.

By being able to craft them, they are no longer a sink.

Why do you want to remove choices from this game?

And no, learning implants are not the reason for being risk averse, it's inbuilt characteristic of one's personality. Learning implants aren't even a good excuse, as all the PVPers use them as well. Or even more expensive pirate implant sets.

This doesn't fly, sorry

Why do you want to remove choices from this game?

And no, learning implants are not the reason for being risk averse, it's inbuilt characteristic of one's personality. Learning implants aren't even a good excuse, as all the PVPers use them as well. Or even more expensive pirate implant sets.

This doesn't fly, sorry

This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it.
I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about....

With all the far more expensive implants I use, I hardly think +5s are an issue. I have in fact flown with them also, when I couldn't be bothered to change clones.

Now with the new clone changes, the whole 'it makes me risk averse' argument is weaker than ever. Not that I found it to be strong before tbh, as there's always a reason to be risk averse if one has that tendency.

Sorry, I simply don't agree with the OP.

jumpclones are completely irrelevant as you're still losing out on SP before you even get podded. jump clones do nothing to change the situation. you're still in the choice between sp vs risky things, or sp and risky things vs hassle. there's always a dull and uninteresting trade that adds nothing to the game except some people simply not bothering to do certain things.

Jump clones are completely relevant, as they allow you to remove the cost that makes your risk averse nature win you over.

Eve should be about choices. I choose to fly with whatever I have in my head and my +5 implants clone is by far the cheapest one I have. But if I need that extra armour, shield, speed etc, then I'll choose the more expensive set and it won't stop me playing. Even if I get less SP per hour.

My choice is playing with the right tools available and enjoying the game. (When RL allows of course) Removal of those choices for poor excuses, simply doesn't wash.

no it doesn't remove the cost at all. the cost of learning implants is the SP you lose when you don't have them plugged in (when/if you lose them) which actually makes jumpclones exasperate the problem.

i don't disagree that eve should be about choices. however this "choice" simply doesn't facilitate fun, or enjoyment. it's merely a choice between waiting longer, and inconvenience. neither of those things are interesting or fun. it's simply a quality of life change every one will benefit from like many quality of life changes before it.

and my choice is to get value for money. why should i be forced to pick between getting my money's worth and being able to do fun things? if SP wasn't tied to IRL currency i probably wouldn't give a **** about my sp/hour.

I have never owned a +5 implant, and switch to +3s when I get war decc'd or go into low-sec. I do not believe I am alone in this.

It's actually quite painful to do, I just have to remind myself I pay for a sub to play the game, not spin ships in station.

(A change I could see the need for.)

"I hate having to lose something because I don't want to risk."

"CCP, please remove this element of risk so that I no longer have to make a meaningful choice."

Does that about sum it up?

If you think it's a good idea to remove learning implants because they're expensive, don't you think it would also be a good idea if CCP simply removed all implants from the game and gave everyone the equivalent of having 4% hardwirings to every skill? It would eliminate the need to risk expensive implants when you fly in PvP.

Are you honestly arguing that items that reward passivity over activity are good? In the case of people who have a nearly inexhaustible wallet it may not really matter, but for the player who has just started and bought a set of +5 implants? Yeah that guy is going to be much more inclined to stay in high sec at all costs or even just stay docked and passively train for months.

good, because that's basically an identical reason for removing learning implants.

for the record, i think attributes themselves are fine, as are remaps they involve meaningful choies. on the other hand, learning implants do not offer meaningful options. the difference between snakes and slaves is interesting and meaningful. the choice between sp/hr and slaves isn't.

because the choice of "do fun stuff, or have more sp" isn't a fun or interesting choice.

except it does fly because it's the exact reason i don't bother pvping. the hassle of replacing implants and losing sp isn't worth me bothering with pvp.

I have 62mil SP and I've had fun all of my time training them with +3 or +4 implants.

Plus, I simply don't believe your stance on attributes.

I have several billions of liquid isk plus billions more in assets, therefore I dislike this change because then I would lose my advantage over other players.

Why?
Not why you don't own +5s, but why switch to +3s?

My pvp pilot flew in nullsec with +5s or full low grade virtue sets and pvp'd for 1.5 years. Never lost the implants or the ship and I had 100% efficiency and did billions in damage. I didn't just rush into any fight I waited and picked targets.

I personally get the feeling that if you lower isk loss in pvp then pvp in Eve will be like a battleground in warcraft. Where players and just attack each other and respawn with minimal consequences. Eve is all about consequences and ruining other people's days.

The funny thing is, while you were sat worrying about your +5s in a station and what SP you're getting. I was out gaining my obvious wealth and skillz using said expensive clones.

and this is why i barely replied to your last comment if you're going to have a monologue with yourself.

Because loosing 500m in implants to a wardec would be stupid?

I am sorry, but even a full set of +4s do not cost 500m.

And then, why do you need more than 2 learning implants which you can change every 24 hours anyway, especially if you are in low/high sec?

If you are saying that they are still too pricey for your taste, then what are you flying? +4 cost is approximately 20mill that is a little bit more than price of a unfitted Crusader, bare Drake cost a little bit less than 2 +4s.

So again, why?

No, I'm arguing that learning implants don't reward anything, they are a choice given to you. Plug in, get SP at a slightly accelerated rate. Why would a person who just started buy +5s? Right, because he is stupid. He doesn't get a single day of training advantage out of those in his first year.

If it so cheap why you discard?

it removes choices

Because the sooner he plugs in the +5s, the sooner that year elapses and he gets the benefit.

Which is the exact same reason people spent their first two months of Eve being bored with their ship choices while they trained learning skills. That didn't pay off for two years.

Which is the exact reason why learning skills were removed. The made new players chose between fun choices now, or boredom now and more fun choices in 2 years.

Learning implants are worse because they keep asking players to make that choice.

Ermmm no. Because he has to train Cyber V, he has the same skills at the end of the year as his pal who only plugged in +4s.

Bored with ship choices? Frigs, dessies and cruisers, the least boring ships in game.

"I hate having to lose something because I don't want to risk."

"CCP, please remove this element of risk so that I no longer have to make a meaningful choice."

Does that about sum it up?

If you think it's a good idea to remove learning implants because they're expensive, don't you think it would also be a good idea if CCP simply removed all implants from the game and gave everyone the equivalent of having 4% hardwirings to every skill? It would eliminate the need to risk expensive implants when you fly in PvP.

Now. You have 100mil ISK. You buy 2 imps +4. 100 - 40 = 60mil of choices.
Will be. You have 100mil ISK. You not buy 2 imps +4. 100mil of choices.

Someone completely missed the point. Other expensive implants only reward you if you actively use them. Expensive training implants reward you for sitting in a station and doing nothing other than station activities (trading and manufacturing for instance). No one in this thread is arguing against all expensive implants. We are pointing out that expensive training implants encourage passivity and are therefore problematic. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

Someone completely missed the point. Other expensive implants only reward you if you actively use them. Expensive training implants reward you for sitting in a station and doing nothing other than station activities (trading and manufacturing for instance). No one in this thread is arguing against all expensive implants. We are pointing out that expensive training implants encourage passivity and are therefore problematic. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

+1

People say "risk/reward" but there really is no interesting reward here. It's a useless game mechanic.

So, are you saying the only thing that stops people from PVP are those 40mills, really?

btw. what about removing clone cost entirely?

And just because people are too lazy or unwilling to switch clones, these implant effects have to go away?

Given CCP have discussed the possibility of removing clone cost, your argument kinda shoots itself in the foot. It's an obvious thing to remove learning implants that make risk averse behaviour of doing nothing more rewarding than risky behaviour.
All the other implants require you to take risks to get their advantage. There are enough 1-5 slot implants already that you wouldn't be left with empty slots and would actually see significantly more LG sets being used I'm sure. And lost at the same time.

...I'd be PVPing with LG slaves most of the time...

At first, I came here to flame at you. But then I read you wall of text, and it totally makes sense.
Especially since I'm a wormholer (CCP dun wanna give us jumpclones hurdur).

-1. Idiotic idea.

I am joining this conversation late. However I am a proponent of not only doing away with learning implants, but attributes and remaps also. This would mean that every character would train at 2700SP/hr from birth which would be deposited in to a SP pool that is capped at some finite number (around 1-3 mil SP ). To gain skills you would apply SP directly from the pool. This would also mean no more training queues.

There are several very nice positives to this situations:
1. No more remaps. No more attributes. Which means you can train what you want, when you want to train it, without having to worry about it not being optimal.
2. This system is very easy to understand. There is really no way for a noob to screw it up. Unlike trying to get them to understand training plans, certain skills need certain remaps, to competently fly a ship you need skills from a lot of different attributes, how often they get remaps, etc. Keeps it simple.
3. Those of us that are in the military and deploy, go on business trips or vacations, computer crashed, or for some other reason Eve isn't really available don't have to worry about switching skills as there is no more training queue and the SP goes in to a pool.
4. If the server is DDoSed you don't have a bunch of idiots trying to claim that CCP owes them SP as they keep training.
5. No more noobs fearful of losing their +3 learning implants in nullsec PvP. I know it seems petty, but it makes a difference.
6. Attributes do add choices and consequences to Eve. There is no denying that. However, those are not meaningful choices. A meaningful choices matters a great deal in your enjoyment in the game. The choice to fit a scram or a point on your frigate is meaningful. With one choice you get a kill. With the other you die. The choice to train optimally or not is, as our wonderful OP posted, benefiting those who don't really play Eve instead of those that do. The choice to enjoy the game or stay docked up safe so you can train faster should never have been a choice presented to the player. Remove it and I assure you Eve will be better for it.

I dig this +1

Dont touch remaps. Eve is about planning.

Holy crap yeah, I was going to do the same... In general I play the game without implants to avoid precisely what the OP is talking about. His reasoning makes some very surprising sense.

As long as they adjust training times so we all basically have +3 implants all the time I totally agree (+5 is too much). Implants should be about gameplay, not passive skill point hoarding.

The trade off is "risk expensive implants I can't afford to replace" vs "permanently lessen the number of skill points my character possesses". That's not a meaningful choice. That's pay-to-win.

On the other hand, choosing how to respec your attributes to maximize one's skill training is planning ahead, and expensive skill hardwire implants require the tactical decision to risk valuable assets for a specific tactical advantage. That is a meaningful choice.

The trade off is "risk expensive implants I can't afford to replace" vs "permanently lessen the number of skill points my character possesses". That's not a meaningful choice. That's pay-to-win.

On the other hand, choosing how to respec your attributes to maximize one's skill training is planning ahead, and expensive skill hardwire implants require the tactical decision to risk valuable assets for a specific tactical advantage. That is a meaningful choice.

If you switch from set of skill implants to another, that effects fights until you switch back. If you switch from a +5 clone to a +3 clones, that effects your character forever. They are not nearly the same thing.

The merit of this idea rests solely on increases the number of people participating in PvP.

There are two problems with the status quo you keep spewing rhetoric to support. The less significant is that for a game that already has a reputation for being heavily stacked against new players. Having the +5 set cost as much as a month's game time and requiring a month of dedicated training to use them only widens that gap. More significantly, it enforces a mindset in a sizable part of the player base in which they won't go anywhere "dangerous" for fear of upsetting their beloved skill plan.

Losing sets of +5s is not a matter of "is it worth the ISK". Very few people in New Eden can afford to write off a PLEX worth of implants in the name of pew pew. It's not a meaningful choice if it is exclusively a matter of wallet balance.

I invite all of you to watch this video and then this one.

Why you want +5? I NEVER ever used anything over +3 in my eve career and I am FINE!


What is worth all these extra SP if you do not use them?


You want an excuse! The fact is you lack the guts!

Remove learning implants and you can still ahve the exact same scenario as you describe but for special implants.

You want to learn faster? Then pay the price of a little bit more of risk!

If you are outside 0.0 you will almost never loose a POD, only when you are drunk or almost falling aslpee. And if you are in 0.0 you can afford +3 and + 4 at will ( jump clone to the +2 clone when you got to a massive battle).

This is just YET ANOTHER suggestion to try to cater the game more towards NON EVE PLAYERS. PLayers that lack the ve mentality!

Those will never stay for long or really make this game grow!

If this suggestion rests solely on what you say then there is no point in it. People who want to pvp go and try it regardless, people who do not want just make excuses.

Today it's implants that preventing you, tomorrow it's clone costs, on thursdays it's bad remaps, on fridays it T3 sp loss, on sundays it ship costs. Don't make excuses and do what you really want to do.

btw. what about T3 sp loss?

I've been thinking of players going to a medical station and paying isk to have one of their base attributes bumped permanently by +1. Each bump becomes much more expensive to do; the equivalent of +5 implant being for the super-rich only.

This creates an isk sink.

This means people don't need to switch clones.

This means people don't lose the bonus when they're podded, removing the risk-aversion stuff from play.

This removes learning implants from play, leaving implants to boost abilities. PvPers can have 10 combat-oriented implants in their heads, researchers can have 10 scientific implants, etc..

Naturally those wearing currently +5 implants will howl at the notion of losing this boost until they can pay for it, but no one said the game was fair. This topic is about getting people out of the stations and into space; this idea may help.

haha stupid

If this suggestion rests solely on what you say then there is no point in it. People who want to pvp go and try it regardless, people who do not want just make excuses.

Today it's implants that preventing you, tomorrow it's clone costs, on thursdays it's bad remaps, on fridays it T3 sp loss, on sundays it ship costs. Don't make excuses and do what you really want to do.

btw. what about T3 sp loss?

My issue with learning implants is it reeks of "pay to win". It's not like skill hardwires in which the cost is offset by whether you win that fight, but rather comparing the risk with permanently reducing your character's SP.

There is no meaningful choice to skill implants. If you can afford them, you use the better ones. It is purely a function of wallet. If I had a few hundred dollars to burn on PLEX to replace my implants you better believe I'd be PvP'ing with +5s. But I don't. So the folks who do will slowly pull ahead of me and there is exactly jack and **** I can do about it.

... defense of the OP...

... not an isk sinkl...

... learning implants aren't risk/reward..

... Alternative idea... Make attribute implants boosters

Well that's a strange thing, considering mind transfer supposedly works via quantum entanglement...

Ban thread, gas OP.

Holy **** these threads get so bad with their tortured logic I almost want to read EN24.

Personally i'm actually for giving all races a fixed attribute bonus, +5 in total (not more than +7) to certain attritbutes to at least give some meaning to race and attributes... Whether or not implants are removed.

I'd be willing to dump billions into this idea if I can keep my old +5s in addition to the stat bonus.

This is not a bad idea actually, even though i've got a set of +5's myself. Removing those implants would make PvP a bit more accessible as well, it might help to get more people involved in low- and nullsec activities since 'the burden of cost' or the 'loss of training time' isn't an issue anymore.

On the other hand - And this is what few people have commented on so far - It does beg the question on whether to even keep working with attributes at all, since this pretty much trivializes them even more than the remap feature did. If learning implants are removed, attributes need to be looked at. Maybe they need a totally different function.

Personally i'm actually for giving all races a fixed attribute bonus, +5 in total (not more than +7) to certain attritbutes to at least give some meaning to race and attributes... Whether or not implants are removed.

This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it.
I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about.

• They benefit the inactive/offline the most.
• They benefit station campers the most.
• They benefit carebears the most.
• They benefit the rich most.
• They benefit veterans the most.
• They suffer the same downsides as did learning skills.
• They suffer the additional downside of costing much thus not only do you need to focus your skills on cyber V first but you also need to save up for the implants immediately after as well, or fall behind.
• You continually lose potential SP when actively playing the game with purpose built implants rather than pure learning implants.

Quite often I'm seeing myself staying docked and closing the client to train rather than play because I CBA. to change clone into less optimal learning implants and lose hours, possibly even days worth of SP because of that one or several gaming sessions.
Those who actually decide to go out and play, most notably interact in PvP and pod each other, those are the ones who suffer the real consequences, not only do they lose SP due to almost never having V's plugged in but they lose their IV's or III's when their pods pop. It makes little sense for a game supposed to promote PvP and yet punish those who then participate in it the most.

It is not an interesting nor exciting choice deciding to either play and lose efficiency or staying offline or docked while benefiting more, essentially playing 'optimally' when not playing.

What could be done is to remove the learning implants and make '+3 implants' baseline, people will rage about this but it's a reasonable suggestion, +5's made baseline might be just as fine a solution, I'm not sure, I'm just sure the learning implants must be removed.

Bottom line:
Rich inactive veteran station hugging carebears benefit the most
Poor active newbie proactive PvP'ers suffer the most

[EDIT] I see some are asking what about Slaves/Crystals etc, the idea is to merely strip the learning attributes from all those implants.

I'm all for this, would remove the requirement of training cybernetics IV/V just to make sure you train faster and then fly around in expensive pods (I would bring a sabre guys but I'm in this clone....)

Having recently moved to wormholes myself and lost the ability to use jump clones, this would be a major improvement to our quality of life.

I normally PvP with +3s or +4s in my head. most of the people in this thread need to HTFU.

No. Actions have consequence. ALL ACTIONS. To include PvP.

Essentially you are crying to make PvP less risky with less to loose.

How is this different from HS care-bears whining to make their life entirely risk-averse?

I PvvE, PvP (badly), loose stuff at a regular pace, kill things/players on occasion and I have no issue with the current mechanics and consequences of implants and PvP. I don't think the game should be dummied down so that you won't have to worry about what hangar you are forced to hang in or what style of game play you are choosing at the moment.

This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it.
I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about.

• They benefit the inactive/offline the most.
• They benefit station campers the most.
• They benefit carebears the most.
• They benefit the rich most.
• They benefit veterans the most.
• They suffer the same downsides as did learning skills.
• They suffer the additional downside of costing much thus not only do you need to focus your skills on cyber V first but you also need to save up for the implants immediately after as well, or fall behind.
• You continually lose potential SP when actively playing the game with purpose built implants rather than pure learning implants.

Quite often I'm seeing myself staying docked and closing the client to train rather than play because I CBA. to change clone into less optimal learning implants and lose hours, possibly even days worth of SP because of that one or several gaming sessions.
Those who actually decide to go out and play, most notably interact in PvP and pod each other, those are the ones who suffer the real consequences, not only do they lose SP due to almost never having V's plugged in but they lose their IV's or III's when their pods pop. It makes little sense for a game supposed to promote PvP and yet punish those who then participate in it the most.

It is not an interesting nor exciting choice deciding to either play and lose efficiency or staying offline or docked while benefiting more, essentially playing 'optimally' when not playing.

What could be done is to remove the learning implants and make '+3 implants' baseline, people will rage about this but it's a reasonable suggestion, +5's made baseline might be just as fine a solution, I'm not sure, I'm just sure the learning implants must be removed.

Bottom line:
Rich inactive veteran station hugging carebears benefit the most
Poor active newbie proactive PvP'ers suffer the most

[EDIT] I see some are asking what about Slaves/Crystals etc, the idea is to merely strip the learning attributes from all those implants.

No. Actions have consequence. ALL ACTIONS. To include PvP.

Essentially you are crying to make PvP less risky with less to loose.

How is this different from HS care-bears whining to make their life entirely risk-averse?

I PvvE, PvP (badly), loose stuff at a regular pace, kill things/players on occasion and I have no issue with the current mechanics and consequences of implants and PvP. I don't think the game should be dummied down so that you won't have to worry about what hangar you are forced to hang in or what style of game play you are choosing at the moment.

I see no reason to take them out of the game. You should be able to do something to affect your training speed. Remaps are one way; implants another. Cybernetics to IV gives you +4s; to I gives you +3s. You only ever need two learning implants at a time.

Boost pirate implants.
Lower the cost of +5s.
Add learning boosters that last about a week (who cares if you lose them a day or two early).

BTW: More SP also means a more expensive clone.




Even if you took them out, the clone costs still hurt older players. We aren't automatically better off. Lower the cost of death directly and you will see an increase in +5 usage and PvP. Learning implants are also a good LP/ISK sink, of which we need more of. Traders, missions, and FW (half the LP) are also involved.

And don't get me started on how you can make the same argument for +5% implants. You get the same problem: a higher cost of death. Yes, there is no SP bonus, but you can't skill use SP to get the same effect.

This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it.
I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about.

• They benefit the inactive/offline the most.
• They benefit station campers the most.
• They benefit carebears the most.
• They benefit the rich most.
• They benefit veterans the most.
• They suffer the same downsides as did learning skills.
• They suffer the additional downside of costing much thus not only do you need to focus your skills on cyber V first but you also need to save up for the implants immediately after as well, or fall behind.
• You continually lose potential SP when actively playing the game with purpose built implants rather than pure learning implants.

Quite often I'm seeing myself staying docked and closing the client to train rather than play because I CBA. to change clone into less optimal learning implants and lose hours, possibly even days worth of SP because of that one or several gaming sessions.
Those who actually decide to go out and play, most notably interact in PvP and pod each other, those are the ones who suffer the real consequences, not only do they lose SP due to almost never having V's plugged in but they lose their IV's or III's when their pods pop. It makes little sense for a game supposed to promote PvP and yet punish those who then participate in it the most.

It is not an interesting nor exciting choice deciding to either play and lose efficiency or staying offline or docked while benefiting more, essentially playing 'optimally' when not playing.

What could be done is to remove the learning implants and make '+3 implants' baseline, people will rage about this but it's a reasonable suggestion, +5's made baseline might be just as fine a solution, I'm not sure, I'm just sure the learning implants must be removed.

Bottom line:
Rich inactive veteran station hugging carebears benefit the most
Poor active newbie proactive PvP'ers suffer the most

[EDIT] I see some are asking what about Slaves/Crystals etc, the idea is to merely strip the learning attributes from all those implants.

Sure they benefit newer players

Being a newer pilot, I cannot support this unless the "base attributes" are +5.

Vets already have an SP advantage; this would make it worse.

Ive been playing since 2005 and every one of you crying about how good this idea is, is frankly rather pathetic.

Eve is about choice. Its about loss vs gain. If you want to GAIN the advantage of implants you risk LOSS. I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. I don't cry when I lose implants, I simply buy more. I'm not rich, I accept that for my actions I have a potential reaction, ie losing implants when I'm in combat. Get the **** over it.

I 100% agree that it is unfair to wormhole PvPers and as such Rorqs or other ships should be made adaptible to wormhole life to allow clone jumps, transfers, ect.

As a verteran player of this game I am ******* sick of scrublord faggots crying about free handouts. This entire forum has been polluted with so much crying over "I want things easier" over the last month or so it's pathetic.

-Nerf sentries
-Make bumping bannable
-Make bumping cause aggression
-Prevent highsec aggression
-Suicide ganking is unfair
-Remove learning implants because I dont want to pay for them and risk losing them.


This player base is turning into WoW.

Ive been playing since 2005 and every one of you crying about how good this idea is, is frankly rather pathetic.

Eve is about choice. Its about loss vs gain. If you want to GAIN the advantage of implants you risk LOSS. I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec. I don't cry when I lose implants, I simply buy more. I'm not rich, I accept that for my actions I have a potential reaction, ie losing implants when I'm in combat. Get the **** over it.

I 100% agree that it is unfair to wormhole PvPers and as such Rorqs or other ships should be made adaptible to wormhole life to allow clone jumps, transfers, ect.

As a verteran player of this game I am ******* sick of scrublord faggots crying about free handouts. This entire forum has been polluted with so much crying over "I want things easier" over the last month or so it's pathetic.

-Nerf sentries
-Make bumping bannable
-Make bumping cause aggression
-Prevent highsec aggression
-Suicide ganking is unfair
-Remove learning implants because I dont want to pay for them and risk losing them.


This player base is turning into WoW.

Your missing the point.

I see a bitterwet crying about possibility of someone catching up to him, caring about highsec above all things despite claiming to be a nullbear, and throwing in some wh chatter to pretend he's making sense.

I like the idea. Learning implants prevent action, that's for sure. Your 4% implants will remain a meaningful choice, what should get hit is +4, not +4% ones...

I fly 95% of the time with +3 or even sometimes +4% implants in nullsec.

Jump clones are great for this, you lose a day of extra SP but so what?

but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content

do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed?

between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was *only* going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP"

but i'd rather have that extra SP than generate content

do you see how that's bad and needs to be addressed?

between the cost, and time of replacing learning implants, and the cost of updating clones there's no "cheap fun" to be had. I'd gladly go and lose frig after frig after frig if i was *only* going to lose a frig worth 5m or less each time, however when you end up losing a pod worth many many times more than your ship you quickly think "this isn't worth it, i'd rather just do something else and get the extra SP"

Really? Your killboard doesn't corroborate that statement.

I see that you have the option to make a choice and are exercising that choice. I make a different choice. In all honesty i cannot think of a single skill that will ruin the game for me if i don't gain it a few days sooner!

Factual part:
I entered w-space after 3 months of play and never left. It never occurred to me to change clones for pvp. I pvp with learning implants in. It's only 40 million if you get podded - nothing compared to the rest of the ship. It's never seemed like a lot of money.

Humorous part:
You poofs need to grow a pair. Get your implants in and jump into a wormhole today. If you want someone to hold your hand, join our public chat.

Opinion Part:
Learning implants represent a trade-off decision for the player. Money or time? Risk (money) and reward (more SP).

Trade-offs make for more interesting and varied play. They are good for eve.

Frankly, you only ever need to have 2 implants in at a time since you're usually learning either support skills or gunnery + ships.

Sometimes I even forget to wear them and I don't really notice. After 3 years of play waiting a few more days for minmatar BS 5 didn't really change my game. They are actually more useful for young players than old ones, and it's a natural feature of being young that you have to take a few risks to get ahead.

Cynical Part:
learning implants are a currency sink. All economies need a currency sink. Without them people become comfortable and retire early.

Still wish CCP would implement this.

tell me why this isn't anything but a "waaaa .. they have something more expensive that I want but can't have because I get killed too often" post. You have the same ability to save for the implants and put them on a secure JC somewhere for long term training as needed. It's a good and useful part of the game.

but hey while we're at the task of making unreasonable requests, lets do away with jump clones....and clone insurance so that you auto lose SP as you die.. and when you reach 0 sp your character is perma-dead.....

my only issue is how will newer piolets compete against year(s) old vets. simple put they cant.
unlike other mmos were u can grind to max lv. eve is time based. without 'help' newer players dont really stand a chance.

i like the idea but u need a solution instead of making every body 'even'

(1) i like the idea of a 'booster' type item u inject and have a boost for a mounth or so. and it stays even if u get podded. but that doesnt make to much sense i inject drugs and when i die they fallow me through the cosmos to my new clone.

or my personal fav. give us dock options like a lab that boost science or a library that boost intelagence, sell dock spaces,
when u start out u get 1 addition room, or u buy a upgrade now u have 2 rooms, 3...4 ext. can have eve players produce 'ROOM cubes' and sell them. isk sink by selling Larger dock apartments. fees to add a room type.

if done right u make it so u can get a max of 4 or so that way u dont get a boost in every feild

idk ill have to thimk about that more. soo tired

Factual part:
I entered w-space after 3 months of play and never left. It never occurred to me to change clones for pvp. I pvp with learning implants in. It's only 40 million if you get podded - nothing compared to the rest of the ship. It's never seemed like a lot of money.

Humorous part:
You poofs need to grow a pair. Get your implants in and jump into a wormhole today. If you want someone to hold your hand, join our public chat.

Opinion Part:
Learning implants represent a trade-off decision for the player. Money or time? Risk (money) and reward (more SP).

Trade-offs make for more interesting and varied play. They are good for eve.

Frankly, you only ever need to have 2 implants in at a time since you're usually learning either support skills or gunnery + ships.

Sometimes I even forget to wear them and I don't really notice. After 3 years of play waiting a few more days for minmatar BS 5 didn't really change my game. They are actually more useful for young players than old ones, and it's a natural feature of being young that you have to take a few risks to get ahead.

Cynical Part:
learning implants are a currency sink. All economies need a currency sink. Without them people become comfortable and retire early.