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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:42:00 -
[1]
For the last couple of days I been into a lot of fleet battles. As a raven pilot i use t2 siege or cruise launchers with t2 ammo and ew in the med slot.
Now as usual we were warping at the enemy or they were warping at us at 100-150km distance. Priamary was called and we all fire. Target died before any of my missiles hit. Same case over and over again. My missiles hardly get the chance to hit the target.
So since these range is a problem i thought if i had a faster lock then my gang members (most turret bs have 2-3 sensor booster) i can launch my missiles before them and it might have chance to catch. But again no luck. Hit 1 or 2 targets and missed for the rest of them.
Then i tried another thing. Since the primary always dies before i hit why not go for the secodary target. Problem is in fleet battle as soon as someone gets hit they think they have been called primary and they warp out. So whenever i shoot secondary, he warps off before my gang members starts shooting at him.
That made me think about my usefulness in the fleet. Most of the killmails from fleet battles i show up as "weapon used cruise missile launcher II or siege missile launcher II". That means none of my missiles hit him. I dont wanna be a killmail ***** and just be happy that i am on it. I can be a jammer but even with good skill, Raven doesnt have a EW bonus so at 100+km its nearly impossible to jam anything. So for me its the same not to show up in the battle.
I think i have a solution for this. If we increase the t2 missile speed and decrease the flight time, missile will have the same range as before but this way atleast they will get a chance to hit the target. It wont increase dmg. It wont increase range. It will be the same in close range fight. As currently missiles hit everything with the increaased speed that wont effect anything.
Tell me what you think. No need to flame me. If you think its a bad idea and it will have bad consequence, show me your point i will understand.
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Malken
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:46:00 -
[2]
fleet battles does not equal long range only.
any close range Fleet battle the raven is a nasty tool.
and a raven with precision cruises wtfpwns all the enemies support very fast.
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:47:00 -
[3]
Much as it pains me to say it, it's probably better to leave missiles alone. The tier 3 Caldari battleship is supposed to be a rail-boat (*gag* - I hate rails except on a harpy), and should fill the fleet role quite nicely.
The raven is currently, and should remain, an alpha ship for small engagements at close range, and have limited usefulness at long range in PvP.
In any case, until the Caldari railboat is released, I'd just suggest using another race's ship. I prefer the tempest, myself, since the burst damage and damage type switching abilities of artillery are more similar to what you get from missiles than rails and beams are..
-Wrayeth
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:47:00 -
[4]
Wow, where did you get an idea for such a cool setup?
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Zafon
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:54:00 -
[5]
You'd have to decrease ROF to maintain current DPS.
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CelticKnight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:58:00 -
[6]
as someone said.. Cruise Missiles pwn cruisers (as the name would suggest NO!!?!)
far as i see it, raven with cruise missiles = anti cruiser
raven with torps = CLOSE RANGE, large dmg, battleship roaster.. or dreadnaught killer (call primary on a dread.. its not gonna instapop is it?)
Ravens are absolutely awsome at NPCing <- what i use the baby for. and cruiser killing. 
But if you want a lovely fleet support ship.. err Scorpian? you have the skills for the ship (caldari lvl1.) train ya ECM and away ya go.
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:58:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Malken
fleet battles does not equal long range only.
any close range Fleet battle the raven is a nasty tool.
and a raven with precision cruises wtfpwns all the enemies support very fast.
I am not asking about asking about its dmg, i am asking about speed.
Originally by: Shin Ra
Wow, where did you get an idea for such a cool setup?
LOL, Shin ra I have better use for my low slots, thank you.
Originally by: Wrayeth
Much as it pains me to say it, it's probably better to leave missiles alone. The tier 3 Caldari battleship is supposed to be a rail-boat (*gag* - I hate rails except on a harpy), and should fill the fleet role quite nicely.
The raven is currently, and should remain, an alpha ship for small engagements at close range, and have limited usefulness at long range in PvP.
In any case, until the Caldari railboat is released, I'd just suggest using another race's ship. I prefer the tempest, myself, since the burst damage and damage type switching abilities of artillery are more similar to what you get from missiles than rails and beams are..
I understand what you are saying. But i am not as effective in other ship. As most of my skills are missile oriented. So until caldari railboat is released should stay in the sideline? And i am going to need good gunnery skill for that too.
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 13:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zafon
You'd have to decrease ROF to maintain current DPS.
Why?
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Drakhis
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:01:00 -
[9]
Its just a fact that missiles in long range fleet engagments are a bad idea.. there great when assaulting capital ships and POS's but when your 100+km away from an enemy fleet and your calling primaries the megas and tempests are going to insta vaproize them before you can get a volley 1/2 across the field...fleets keep ravens around because reguardless of their inability to do much in fleet engagments at long range they ARE the owners of close range fleet engagments.. that and a non EW setup raven set for pure support with painters and sensor boosters can pack such a punch in close range ops that you yourself will prbobly instapop peoples armor to 1/2 on a single salvo.. so you as a raven are kept around for the simple reason of look we have more BS's than you roar fear us
The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained. |
Drakhis
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Drakhis on 17/02/2006 14:05:41
and on the RoF decrease its because they travel faster get to their target quicker and with the same RoF cycles your going to be increasing your DPS exponentially with increased missile speeds reguardless of flight time its like Im gunna shoot this mieeile at you and it takes 10 seconds to get to you and does 10 damage
then on this hand its im gunna shoot this missile at you it also does 10dmg but only takes 5 seconds to get to you so with a rate of fire of like 10 seconds you do the math i dont know the math but thats saying now yoru getting hit for 10 damage every 15 seoconds rather than every 20 seconds
see an huge increase in overall DPS due to faster flight speed
The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained. |
Sentani
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:07:00 -
[11]
this is why i want missiles to be able to change targets in mid-fligth
would solve this problem instantly...
missiles should ALLWAYS go the target you have as primary...
____________
The cargo bay is overloaded and cannot be made to fit Expanded Cargohold I.
It is currently only capable of fitting 8772.12 units and it is currently jammed full with 9558.33 units. |
Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CelticKnight
as someone said.. Cruise Missiles pwn cruisers (as the name would suggest NO!!?!)
far as i see it, raven with cruise missiles = anti cruiser
raven with torps = CLOSE RANGE, large dmg, battleship roaster.. or dreadnaught killer (call primary on a dread.. its not gonna instapop is it?)
Ravens are absolutely awsome at NPCing <- what i use the baby for. and cruiser killing.
But if you want a lovely fleet support ship.. err Scorpian? you have the skills for the ship (caldari lvl1.) train ya ECM and away ya go.
Originally by: Drakhis
Its just a fact that missiles in long range fleet engagments are a bad idea.. there great when assaulting capital ships and POS's but when your 100+km away from an enemy fleet and your calling primaries the megas and tempests are going to insta vaproize them before you can get a volley 1/2 across the field...fleets keep ravens around because reguardless of their inability to do much in fleet engagments at long range they ARE the owners of close range fleet engagments.. that and a non EW setup raven set for pure support with painters and sensor boosters can pack such a punch in close range ops that you yourself will prbobly instapop peoples armor to 1/2 on a single salvo.. so you as a raven are kept around for the simple reason of look we have more BS's than you roar fear us
I know how good raven is at close range. So what you are saying is since its good at close range it shouldnt be able to fight at long range?
Originally by: Drakhis
Edited by: Drakhis on 17/02/2006 14:05:41
and on the RoF decrease its because they travel faster get to their target quicker and with the same RoF cycles your going to be increasing your DPS exponentially with increased missile speeds reguardless of flight time its like Im gunna shoot this mieeile at you and it takes 10 seconds to get to you and does 10 damage
then on this hand its im gunna shoot this missile at you it also does 10dmg but only takes 5 seconds to get to you so with a rate of fire of like 10 seconds you do the math i dont know the math but thats saying now yoru getting hit for 10 damage every 15 seoconds rather than every 20 seconds
see an huge increase in overall DPS due to faster flight speed
I am not sure what you are trying to say here but if you really think that it increases dps then fine nerf some dmg of long range missile. I would actually prefer some damage then no damamge.
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:13:00 -
[13]
Shoot the secondary..?
There is no point in making missiles into turrets.
You can
a) always be 1 (even 2) targets ahead of the turret ships
b) help out mopping up support with the new over powered precision missiles
c) use a ship more suited for this task (ffs raven isn't ment to be good/best at everything)
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Sniser
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:13:00 -
[14]
i have the same problem. even with cruise cant hit never in fleet. i like a lot this idea , would be really awesome if ccp can do it
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Drakhis
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:17:00 -
[15]
Not at all considering Mega's pwn short and long range im just saying their not effectiv ein long range FLEET engagments... play at a POS have a torp fitted raven see whos on top of a DPS chart probobly the high payload tech 2 torp fitted raven whos unloading a torp every 10 seconds thats doing 1.5k+ to the POS per torpedo but fleets still accept ravens in because of their support ability.. signiture radios isnt only for missiles the bigger the sig radius the better chance a turret has of hitting them so fit your raven non EW.. leave that to scorps and BB's keep yoruself in a support role throw on painters cruise missiles webbers and sensor boosters do what you do best kill smaller ships that need to get close or throw on those target painters make it easier for the 1800mm arty cannons to hit their target or the 425mm rails or even those laser things people use (bleh i hate amarr no offense to you of course)
The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained. |
Bazman
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:20:00 -
[16]
Missles should be blasting Cruisers and battlecruisers in fleet battles, you don't always have enough enemies flying them in a lagtastic fleet battle though :P
Best thing to do is leave the Raven at home and bring the Scorpion for fleet battles, there really is very little a Raven can do in a large fleet engagement.
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Woopie
Shoot the secondary..?
There is no point in making missiles into turrets.
You can
a) always be 1 (even 2) targets ahead of the turret ships
b) help out mopping up support with the new over powered precision missiles
c) use a ship more suited for this task (ffs raven isn't ment to be good/best at everything)
Did you even read my post? I already said what happens when i shoot secondary. I dont want my ship to be good/best at everything. When the fleet needs my help, i bring out the best ship i can fly. But i cant do anything with it. Thats why i made this post. Not to WTFBBQ everything on my sight.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:26:00 -
[18]
A raven with EW and precision cruise is a valuable weapon in a fleet. Shoot the tacklers, jam the battlehsips.
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:32:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Amarr knight
Originally by: Woopie
Shoot the secondary..?
There is no point in making missiles into turrets.
You can
a) always be 1 (even 2) targets ahead of the turret ships
b) help out mopping up support with the new over powered precision missiles
c) use a ship more suited for this task (ffs raven isn't ment to be good/best at everything)
Did you even read my post? I already said what happens when i shoot secondary. I dont want my ship to be good/best at everything. When the fleet needs my help, i bring out the best ship i can fly. But i cant do anything with it. Thats why i made this post. Not to WTFBBQ everything on my sight.
Well did you read mine? Have your incompetent caller, call secondary sooner and call tertiary even quaternary targets. Small things like this make it possible for a well coordinated fleet to have a huge advange over less competent fleets.
And this I can only fly ship X, so it should do what ship Y which I can't fly .. is a really really poor argument.
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bazman
Missles should be blasting Cruisers and battlecruisers in fleet battles, you don't always have enough enemies flying them in a lagtastic fleet battle though :P
Best thing to do is leave the Raven at home and bring the Scorpion for fleet battles, there really is very little a Raven can do in a large fleet engagement.
Thats the problem. If EW was my strongest suit i would use scorpion. And in fleet battle where enemies over 100+km away there is hardly any cruiser or battlecruisers there. I shoot whatever i find but in the end there is always the enemy bs fleet left.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
A raven with EW and precision cruise is a valuable weapon in a fleet. Shoot the tacklers, jam the battlehsips.
In a long range fleet battle (100-200km) EW is close to useless even with good skills.
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Amarr knight
Originally by: Woopie
Shoot the secondary..?
There is no point in making missiles into turrets.
You can
a) always be 1 (even 2) targets ahead of the turret ships
b) help out mopping up support with the new over powered precision missiles
c) use a ship more suited for this task (ffs raven isn't ment to be good/best at everything)
Did you even read my post? I already said what happens when i shoot secondary. I dont want my ship to be good/best at everything. When the fleet needs my help, i bring out the best ship i can fly. But i cant do anything with it. Thats why i made this post. Not to WTFBBQ everything on my sight.
Well did you read mine? Have your incompetent caller, call secondary sooner and call tertiary even quaternary targets. Small things like this make it possible for a well coordinated fleet to have a huge advange over less competent fleets.
And this I can only fly ship X, so it should do what ship Y which I can't fly .. is a really really poor argument.
I dont want to turn this into a smack fest. All i want is an solution to the problem. I dont want raven to be as effective as turrets ship. I even agreed if the dmg seems too much nerf the dmg for long range missiles. If the solution is fly a ship of another race then thats a poor solution.
As i mentioned earlier i have been to a lot fleetbattles lately. So i got the chance to try alot of different things to make it work. Including the tactics you mentioned. It didnt work. That is the reason for my post. Nothing else.
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Miklas Laces
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:44:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/02/2006 14:45:14
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/02/2006 14:44:57
Originally by: Amarr knight
Now as usual we were warping at the enemy or they were warping at us at 100-150km distance. Priamary was called and we all fire. Target died before any of my missiles hit. Same case over and over again. My missiles hardly get the chance to hit the target.
Very funny, it reminds me of when I am in my Deimos and all my corpmates spam missiles with their Cerberus. I can never get into range fast enough.
What are your suggestions to fix that ? 
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/02/2006 14:45:14
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 17/02/2006 14:44:57
Originally by: Amarr knight
Now as usual we were warping at the enemy or they were warping at us at 100-150km distance. Priamary was called and we all fire. Target died before any of my missiles hit. Same case over and over again. My missiles hardly get the chance to hit the target.
Very funny, it reminds me of when I am in my Deimos and all my corpmates spam missiles with their Cerberus. I can never get into range fast enough.
What are your suggestions to fix that ?
I am talking about fleet battles and you are talking about getting your blasters into firing range. You went so off topic i dont even know what to say.
If you have problem with blasters make your own thread please dont hijack mine.
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.02.17 14:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Amarr knight
Originally by: Woopie
[snip]
I dont want to turn this into a smack fest. All i want is an solution to the problem. I dont want raven to be as effective as turrets ship. I even agreed if the dmg seems too much nerf the dmg for long range missiles. If the solution is fly a ship of another race then thats a poor solution.
You can't do everything with one ships, if you think the other ships don't have problems. Think again. Raven is already one of the most versalite ships in the game with only single setup.
People specialize in this game or become jack of all trades (or somewhere between). Not speclized jack of all trades. This is the way it is supposed to be. While everyone dreams of a "I win button", one size fits all, it's just not gona happen.
Originally by: Amarr knight
As i mentioned earlier i have been to a lot fleetbattles lately. So i got the chance to try alot of different things to make it work. Including the tactics you mentioned. It didnt work. That is the reason for my post. Nothing else.
Just because it takes some efford/skill to make it work doesn't mean you should just give up. Esp since fleet battles really need more tactic/skills from the players, rather than just numbers/sp and f1-f8.
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LVirus
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:01:00 -
[25]
its true that caldari isnt good at long range battles. Atleast vs primary targets.
Id reccomend you fire t2 cruise missiles on frigs/cruisers. T2 precision missiles can allmost instapop ceptors.
Just imagine all the whine gun users would cause if raven can cause allmost instahits from 150km. Tho id like to see med slot missile velocity/precision module :)
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Cetagee
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:04:00 -
[26]
Simple as that:
Demand short to mid-range engagments from your FC and 'viola'...:P
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Amarr knight
I am talking about fleet battles and you are talking about getting your blasters into firing range. You went so off topic i dont even know what to say.
Fleet != long range. Last fleet battle I was in took place between 0km and 50km and was far more fun than any sniper engagement I've been in since well before I left FA. We got slaughtered and I still had fun! Thats something I can't say for longer ranged engagements.
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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Amarr knight
Originally by: Woopie
[snip]
[snip]
You can't do everything with one ships, if you think the other ships don't have problems. Think again. Raven is already one of the most versalite ships in the game with only single setup.
People specialize in this game or become jack of all trades (or somewhere between). Not speclized jack of all trades. This is the way it is supposed to be. While everyone dreams of a "I win button", one size fits all, it's just not gona happen.
Here is scenario. You are a caldari pilot and specialise in missile. Now your fleet commander asked everyone to bring their battleship. and fit for dmg and long range. Now as a caldari pilot you have 2 bs to choose from. As scorpion is jammer you are only left with Raven. So you bring raven. And when you are in the fight you can see that you dont hit any targets as they die too fast. What will you do?
You keep mistaking my post. I am not looking for a "I win button". I dont want to go out there and be the best damage dealer in the fleet. Fleet battle is a huge part of alliance war fare. After maxing out nearly every missile skill if I cant slightly contribute as a damage dealer it is really frustating.
Originally by: Woopie
Originally by: Amarr knight
As i mentioned earlier i have been to a lot fleetbattles lately. So i got the chance to try alot of different things to make it work. Including the tactics you mentioned. It didnt work. That is the reason for my post. Nothing else.
Just because it takes some efford/skill to make it work doesn't mean you should just give up. Esp since fleet battles really need more tactic/skills from the players, rather than just numbers/sp and f1-f8.
You keep talking about tactic. I didnt just go into a fight, failed to contribute and came in the forum to whine. I went back again and again with different setups, different tactics. I already told you that i even tried the tactics you mentioned. IT DOESNT WORK. You merely contribute in 1-2 kills and rest of the missiles keep flying around the battle field.
I am here asking for a solution. If you have better tactic then help me out. If you dont then suggest something that will fix it.
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WizEye
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:44:00 -
[29]
If raven is useless, then what about dominix?
Caldari have scorp as their fleet ship, gallente have mega. Both have a ship that's not too great for fleet.
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HELP US FIX DRONES, POST HERE!!! SIGN HERE |
Sentani
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Posted - 2006.02.17 15:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sentani
this is why i want missiles to be able to change targets in mid-fligth
would solve this problem instantly...
missiles should ALLWAYS go the target you have as primary...
noones ever likes my ideas 
____________
The cargo bay is overloaded and cannot be made to fit Expanded Cargohold I.
It is currently only capable of fitting 8772.12 units and it is currently jammed full with 9558.33 units. |
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