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TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
2
   |
Posted - 2013.11.19 06:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is it time for free to play EVE?
I was thinking on this a lot recently and wanted to get incite from other EVE players (and forum trolls)
So first off the idea...
- EVE goes free to play!
-- Training queues still require paid subscription, or PLEX to be active
-- Accounts remain active if sub, or PLEX is not updated, training queue is paused
-- Free accounts still get a month or so (depending on current marketing deal) of training time
-- No more "trail accounts" removing cost of activating a new account
That's it...
What would this do for EVE?
- Positives
-- You and the people you play with are not unable to play EVE if they can't afford to sub/PLEX
-- EVE community is grown because monetary barrier to entry is removed
-- Mining bot gankers get more prey
-- More players means system wide activity goes up (more pew pew for all)
- Negatives
-- Player base could be negatively affected by weird people who used to not play EVE
-- CCP loses money
-- Mining Bot swarms and cyno rats everywhere
-- Players consider paying for training a pay to win model (people HATE ptw models)
-- System overload. Could EVE servers handle millions of active players?
-- Could be much harder/expensive to do logistically than it sounds
I think most the negatives I listed are not huge risks. EVE players are great at self regulation, that is the wonderful sandbox nature of our universe. There are already plenty of scumbags that play EVE; scammers, gankers, and botters (I love you all trust me), but would more ruin EVE?
I do not consider this a Pay to Win model because of the knowledge, tactics, and execution of those that is required to be successful at EVE. Skill points allow people to do more stuff, but not necessarily "win".
From point of view of CCP's wallet I think that free to play models have shown they monetize very well. This model could actually make CCP gobs more ISKies. I for one would not stop training, consistent and quality updates have made getting new skills very desirable. I think this would be the same for most on at least one character. The thing I am not sure of is if the player base doubled would entering Jita on a Saturday be a crap shoot?
Finally...
Is this even possible? I do work in game, so I have a decent idea of what types of logistical nightmares that can come from a significant change. Some can be a few lines of code and testing, others can be theoretically impossible (think starbase issues remaining because Legacy code)
Thoughts? Anything I am missing here? |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
610
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 06:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Free to play? Only if the SP training rate is reduced by half for free accounts.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
384
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 06:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
TheFourteenthTry wrote:I was thinking
Please stop, you are bad at it.
Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Gigan Amilupar
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 06:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Honestly, this is horrible. You yourself have outlined several reasons why this would be bad, the most eye catching one being "CCP loses money" which pretty much sinks it. But I'll take it a bit further. You've tied subscribing to the training queue? What about PI/mining accounts? Once they get their skills trained, they no longer need to sub. What about players who have been playing since the beginning of the game, or long enough to train everything they want? Now none of them have to pay either. Neither do people who primarily small-gang or solo pvp in low SP ships. This would be catastrophic. More so, EvE already HAS a system in place for people who can play the game a lot but might not have the finances to back it up, and it's called PLEX (although I would seriously question the wisdom of anyone who doesn't have $15 a month to spend on an online game spending their time on an online game). Not to mention from a development standpoint this would encourage CCP to continue to add skills to make people want to subscribe, which would bloat the system, be bad for game health and promote power creep. And of course there is the game environment which you mentioned, as this would be a huge boon to bots. Honestly, this is just terrible. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but this is seriously bad.
No, never, not in a million years. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
8637
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its already free to play.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sweet off to a great start :D
feedback so far has been what I expected.
First off thanks to the Troll you burned me good
for clarification...
This means you do not train if you do not pay, so playing EVE for free would mean you're NOT training.
As for the other incites to loss in income to CCP. You are absolutely right. EVE currently has a successful business model, and this would instantly drop the income by a significant margin. EVE is most likely sustainable for a many more years as is. But EVE already has power creep and new skills are added all the time for the same reason. Also when you reach the end of the game (no more desired skills to train) you are already facing the decision of the value of your money and time.
The real question is would Free to Play draw in so many more people to EVE because of a lowered barrier to entry that it compensated for that? Also would more players in EVE make it a better experience for everyone?
I don't know maybe it wouldn't |
Neor Deninard
Blackwater Coalition Forces
Harkonnen Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
There just is one big problem with your whole scheme; you can log in a char that has trained before. And play with it. For free. This is pointed out to you above as well.
IE: takes 2 plex to fully train a PI / Mining barge alt THAT NEVER HAS TO TRAIN AGAIN. Basically, it prints isk. For no cost. Or better, 4 plex for a L4 alt or pretty high up mining alt. So you have free chars that can generate upwards of 100 mill a hr per char ...
This will cause a massive market disruption as isk becomes less valuable, it will murder the prices of everything. Plex will become so expensive that people without 'free' accounts no longer can buy it off the market.
Not to mention huge fleets of dual boxed miners, campers, gankers etc...
And I hear you say, hey good points, but what about we limit the accounts to 1 per person? Cannot be enforced and CCP does not have the time to go hunting these people all day long. |
Will Harold
Derelik Mining Coalition
17
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
"CCP loses money".
Alright then. |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Neor Deninard wrote:There just is one big problem with your whole scheme; you can log in a char that has trained before. And play with it. For free. This is pointed out to you above as well.
IE: takes 2 plex to fully train a PI / Mining barge alt THAT NEVER HAS TO TRAIN AGAIN. Basically, it prints isk. For no cost. Or better, 4 plex for a L4 alt or pretty high up mining alt. So you have free chars that can generate upwards of 100 mill a hr per char ...
This will cause a massive market disruption as isk becomes less valuable, it will murder the prices of everything. Plex will become so expensive that people without 'free' accounts no longer can buy it off the market.
Not to mention huge fleets of dual boxed miners, campers, gankers etc...
And I hear you say, hey good points, but what about we limit the accounts to 1 per person? Cannot be enforced and CCP does not have the time to go hunting these people all day long.
So you're saying you don't already do this PI trick w/ your alts...
Cause I did and still could any time... I don't pay (one subbed one plexed) but to keep two of my accounts character training. Sadly I had to pause for my alt to train bot not anymore with multi account training.
People also dual/trip/quad/freak box, 30+ PI account and disrupt market play ALL the time in today's EVE.
PLEX prices are already rocketing up because of multi account training, but that means it's more desireable for all these new players to spend RL money for lots of ISK.
and no I am not going to say limit to one account cause that is impossible and also a terrible idea. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
15684
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its already free to play. This basically. You just need to spend a little time each month, to earn the ISK to play.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Gigan Amilupar
No Code of Conduct
Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
54
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 07:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
TheFourteenthTry wrote:Neor Deninard wrote:There just is one big problem with your whole scheme; you can log in a char that has trained before. And play with it. For free. This is pointed out to you above as well.
IE: takes 2 plex to fully train a PI / Mining barge alt THAT NEVER HAS TO TRAIN AGAIN. Basically, it prints isk. For no cost. Or better, 4 plex for a L4 alt or pretty high up mining alt. So you have free chars that can generate upwards of 100 mill a hr per char ...
This will cause a massive market disruption as isk becomes less valuable, it will murder the prices of everything. Plex will become so expensive that people without 'free' accounts no longer can buy it off the market.
Not to mention huge fleets of dual boxed miners, campers, gankers etc...
And I hear you say, hey good points, but what about we limit the accounts to 1 per person? Cannot be enforced and CCP does not have the time to go hunting these people all day long. So you're saying you don't already do this PI trick w/ your alts... Cause I did and still could any time... I don't pay (one subbed one plexed) but to keep two of my accounts character training. Sadly I had to pause for my alt to train bot not anymore with multi account training. People also dual/trip/quad/freak box, 30+ PI account and disrupt market play ALL the time in today's EVE. PLEX prices are already rocketing up because of multi account training, but that means it's more desireable for all these new players to spend RL money for lots of ISK. and no I am not going to say limit to one account cause that is impossible and also a terrible idea.
Your missing his point. While it's true that many players don't train specific characters past the skills required to do PI or mining with optimal efficiency, those accounts still have to be subscribed and therefor paid for, one way or another. And you are correct that the price of PLEX is increasing due to demand for multi-char training, this is hardly a bad thing, as those PLEXs need to be bought with actual cash. In these scenarios CCP is making money because the PLEX have to originally be bought from them. Even for the guy who multiboxes 30+ miners at a time and is paying for all those accounts with PLEX, those 30+ PLEX per month are still being paid for by any number of people. But what your suggesting is that instead of CCP getting 30+ PLEX worth of income per month while he plays CCP should opt to get 60 or 90 PLEX in the time it takes to train those characters, and then let them continue to play for free. Forever.
While there is an argument to be made about the effects of multiboxers on the economy, there is still a barrier to entry on some level that prevents widespread abuse whether that be the initial investment required before one can start paying with PLEX or the supply/demand ratio of farmed materials leveling out prices. But creating a system that allows for infinite free bots cannot possibly be justified by any damage multiboxers do. That's like making the argument "Well, the stoves on fire, so I guess I might as well let the house burn".
Finally, the draw to pay for ISK is never, ever, going to surpass the draw to play the game itself. Why should we make people just want to buy currency? If people are paying for the game and then want to, essentially, buy ISK on top of that, then that's certainly better for CCP. |
Neor Deninard
Blackwater Coalition Forces
Harkonnen Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 08:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
You just don't understand it. My alt is paid for, each month, 1 plex/month.
If he isn't paid for, that's 615 million isk I can spend on other stuff. (and it was 550 1 month ago, plex is getting more expensive all the time already)
Do that times 1000x or even 10.000x ; more money in the economy (and many more minerals and POS materials mainly) will cause stuff to become more expensive on one side, and kills the mineral and POS material (PI) markets because of the huge supply.
That creates an intresting situation, too much isk, too much minerals, too much materials; dropped items will becomes stupidly expensive, manufactured items will be sold at production prices, or lower.
And in the long run, noone buys plex to sell on the market for isk anymore, since they have isk printing accounts. Combined with a huge isk devaluation plex will become stupidly expensive. So expensive that you need more free accounts, printing more isk and flowing more items into the market, to buy plex to allow training. |
Karma Codolle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 08:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Terrible idea, do you know how many accounts people have that they don't need to train anything on them. Hell with this system I could have a cyno toon in every system of EvE and never have to worry about plexing them active. Training perfect mining toons doesn't take that long. I could have perfect hulk pilots and never need to train sp again and just play the game for free.
Hell I could even be content with mediocre pvp pilot just playing for free with half way decent skills.
This would be an excellent way to kill EvE and CCP.
If I don't need to train my toons I don't need to pay anymore. I can enjoy the game for free for however long it takes the ccp to tank.
People wont need to buy plex anymore.
Seriously worst idea i've seen to date. |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
84
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 08:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you want F2P go play Dust.
As you've already pointed out yourself, your suggestion would break too many things (and it's just bad)
the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones
-á--áCommander Ted |
Karma Codolle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
I just wanted to add this in
Quote:- Negatives
[...]
-- CCP loses money
[...]
I think most the negatives I listed are not huge risks. EVE players are great at self regulation,
how do you think ccp losing money is not a huge risk? and how do you expect eve players to self regulate the companies loss of money? CCP can't exactly survive off isk....
|
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
923
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Horrible Horrible idea. Also as you seem to be too lazy to use the search function to see if this has been posted before, I will link another thread for you. Hopefully you will read that one and try to understand what people think of this idea.
The same cruddy idea.
Just in case you don't. I will say the same thing here....
Jint Hikaru wrote:NO
This would be terrible for Eve.
Can you imagine the amount of free accounts doing the following -
Mining
Blob warfare
Ganking
Trading
spamming scams
etc
There is so many things you can do in Eve with only a few months skillpoints. All of these things will be done with free accounts.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
BEPOHNKA
The Scope
Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
eve is free to play like many of them who plex .... plexing for hours not for you go play dust or wait for fighter game to come out :) |
Asa Shahni
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
someone just fed the trolls  |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Asa Shahni wrote:someone just fed the trolls
Had to...
I play EVE I am as bored as they are  |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Also as you seem to be too lazy
You're right I am too lazy to search more than the 'its already been suggested' thread line at the top of the forum for features and ideas. But then again that's what it's there for. :)
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Horrible Horrible idea.
and thanks... Haven't had an idea called 'horrible horrible' since I got home from work today. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
795
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
TheFourteenthTry wrote:Sweet off to a great start :D
feedback so far has been what I expected.
First off thanks to the Troll you burned me good
for clarification...
This means you do not train if you do not pay, so playing EVE for free would mean you're NOT training.
As for the other incites to loss in income to CCP. You are absolutely right. EVE currently has a successful business model, and this would instantly drop the income by a significant margin. EVE is most likely sustainable for a many more years as is. But EVE already has power creep and new skills are added all the time for the same reason. Also when you reach the end of the game (no more desired skills to train) you are already facing the decision of the value of your money and time.
The real question is would Free to Play draw in so many more people to EVE because of a lowered barrier to entry that it compensated for that? Also would more players in EVE make it a better experience for everyone?
I don't know maybe it wouldn't
Would draw more CHILDREEN!
And eve doe snto need even more immature people.
The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 09:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And eve doe snto need even more immature people.
The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.
Is that typo using all these 'brains' you speak of or was that just getting over excited? |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
15684
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 10:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
TheFourteenthTry wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
And eve doe snto need even more immature people.
The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it.
Is that typo using all these 'brains' you speak of or was that just getting over excited? Well do we take it from your focus on their typos rather than their point, that you've realised just how bad your idea was?
After all it can be RL money free now for individuals, but CCP still gets paid. Your idea means they lose money.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
362
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 10:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
From what I've seen Free2Play can only exist if Pay2Win is instituted.
Neither is acceptable.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Sigras
Conglomo
539
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 11:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Well, the OP has one thing right, he shouldnt think too often . . .
Of all the ideas I keep seeing come up on the forums, this has got to be the worst.
Do you have any idea what an unlimited number of alts would do to this game? Allow me to give you some examples of how terribly this would go:
1. Nobody ever trains above 50 million SP. With the way the game is currently set up, I would just have a train of alts one specialized to fly medium hybrid ships, one specialized to fly large hybrid ships, one specialized for trading, one specialized for mining, one specialized for manufacturing . . . and never risking an expensive clone
2. People with cap ships would have a cyno alt in every system with a station they could get into. Ok maybe thats a bit of an exaggeration, but I can definitely see one in every region easily
3. The number of spies in the major alliances gets even more ridiculous than it is now, and Eve becomes 99% space politics as opposed to the 90% that it is now.
4. As numbers inflate, space battles become larger and more prone to TiDi/Lag/Node Crashing. People will all be triple or quadruple boxing their different alts in combat.
These are just the first few things I could think of, and Im sure there are several more, but any of these problems would be near insurmountable, all of them together? fatal. |
TheFourteenthTry
The 0rigin
Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 15:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Well, the OP has one thing right, he shouldnt think too often . . .
Of all the ideas I keep seeing come up on the forums, this has got to be the worst.
Do you have any idea what an unlimited number of alts would do to this game? Allow me to give you some examples of how terribly this would go:
1. Nobody ever trains above 50 million SP. With the way the game is currently set up, I would just have a train of alts one specialized to fly medium hybrid ships, one specialized to fly large hybrid ships, one specialized for trading, one specialized for mining, one specialized for manufacturing . . . and never risking an expensive clone
2. People with cap ships would have a cyno alt in every system with a station they could get into. Ok maybe thats a bit of an exaggeration, but I can definitely see one in every region easily
3. The number of spies in the major alliances gets even more ridiculous than it is now, and Eve becomes 99% space politics as opposed to the 90% that it is now.
4. As numbers inflate, space battles become larger and more prone to TiDi/Lag/Node Crashing. People will all be triple or quadruple boxing their different alts in combat.
These are just the first few things I could think of, and Im sure there are several more, but any of these problems would be near insurmountable, all of them together? fatal.
Nice points...
Here's my counter...
1) I have over 50mil on one account already, almost a second I WOULD KEEP TRAINING BOTH ACCOUNTS and more whether or not CCP implemented this idea. Also in this scenario, as I make so many alts I only have to train one account down each of the hundreds of skill paths in EVE, I would be paying CCP a gob of RL money for that time.
2) Cyno Rats Everywhere - Once again go for it! That's your choice and to me not a bad one, or one that 'breaks' EVE in anyway. This strategy is already being done and you and I know it, only expection is CCP makes a lot of money from that. Should they? Should all in game currency be tied so directly to money CCP makes (thinking research and PI alts here)?
-- sorry tangent... Aren't research alts a little broken currently?... Train for a few months, setup month long research check account once a year. Boring, boring, and more boring while I never played at all. "Here's my money CCP for allowing me to fake research fake sciences.' o\
3) This is a terrible point against. More spies doesn't mean anything other than more intel. More people would create more intel so in my proposal EVE would need more spies.
4) This could be an ACTUAL problem and one I noted in my negatives. If CCP couldn't handle server logistics then yes it would suck to have node crashes. But the part about numbers inflating in battles... This is why people play MMO's to play with others. CCP recognizes that already. Hence the 1000 man battles in Null that they move server load around to help make happen. These large battles going out on the interwebs and to twitch draws ppl to eve thanks mad ani and others. Hence this point is kinda in favor of my idea from CCP's point of view. If they can handle the load. PS dualing box strains your computer not EVE's server nodes... don't be silly
Also I want to make another few notes back...
Many arguments against have been made because I noted CCP may lose money. On the flip side it is possible they could make money from all the new accounts being trained to take advantage of the Gift of free cyno rats. There is also all the new potential players that would try EVE.
Ever try to get a friend to play EVE? How many? How long did they play for before leaving? Are most still playing? Do you ever feel bad bringing in friends to play EVE cause you know they need several months of combat training before they will start to be satisfied? Cause I do. So many games to choose where peoples money go...
Finally DUST is F2P so CCP is obviously interested in the business model. My guess is they at CCP have thought of this 'terrible' idea a lot, and have considered its effects pos/neg. All I see is people worried about players exploiting systems they already exploit to the cost of CCP's income. But if CCP is considering then they would be willing to take the risk, because there is the potential it would make lots more money, and then it seems it will happen. \o/
oh and sorry about trolling the typo I didn't mean to lessen the argument yes we do have to worry about Stoopid Childreen ruining EVE... I guess... It was pretty funny timing on the typo though
Quote:
And eve doe snto need even more immature people.
The absolute majority of people with enough brains and mental coordination to play this game can make the money to pay it
good point though yes |
Jaz Antollare
Deadly Loneliness
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 15:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Just don't open the Pandora's box. |
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
Kiki's Delivery Service.
28
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 18:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:TheFourteenthTry wrote:I was thinking Please stop, you are bad at it.
This is the best post in the thread. |
Bill Saisima
State War Academy
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 19:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Wow, terrible idea. For me, but I think possibly for CCP too. Unless they don't mind totally replacing the playerbase... |
Psychoactive Stimulant
75
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 19:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Has anyone said "biomass yourself" yet?
Biomass yourself. |
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